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A new method of PvP - The ArenaFollow

#1 Jun 16 2005 at 4:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Background
Conflict within Vana'diel has slowly been gaining popularity among the adventurers of Vana'diel. With Ballista now in full swing for some time, people have started wanting more from their battles. Whilst open dueling has been frowned upon by officials with Jeuno, a new method of conflict is quickly becoming needed.

Also, adventurers are finding that there is little to do in Vana'diel other than training and protecting their home cities from invasion from the Beastmen. They need a form of recreation that they can visit to relax and unwind after a hard day of training.

Concept
The Arena. A huge construction built just off from Qufim Isle, designed purely for the purposes of entertainment. Unlike Ballista, where adventurers are pitted against each other in the wild, the arena would be an area where people could not only hone their skills against fellow adventurers, but against beasts as well. People could also watch from the stadium, cheering for their favorite competitors, showering the winners with glory, and possibly gain some tactics they can use in their own fighting.

Detailed Description
The Arena
The Arena itself would be accessible from the three major cities (Bastok, San d'Oria and Windurst) as well as Jeuno itself. No requirements would be needed, just speak with one of the Arena staff to get transported to the entrance.

Once at the arena itself, there will be a variety of services available. Obviously, you'll be able to go to the main arena and witness whatever fight is in progress at the time. You can also go to one of the smaller arenas for some of the smaller fights (this will be dependant on what the fights are, there may only be a set amount of 'public' arenas). You'll be able to purchase various food and drink from the vendors to enjoy whilst watching the fights, or even to eat to prepare for your own battles.

Each main arena also will have people around to take bets for the fights. Each fight will have certain odds, and will allow bets up until a certain amount of time before the battle starts. So not only is there advantages to fighting, but watching as well!

Fighting
If you want to hone your fighting skills without the threat of losing any of your well earned experience, then you can fight in the arena! With the ability for one on one fights all the way up to full alliances waging war on each other, you can either join alone, or sign up with two opposing forces for a friendly fight.

If you want to practice your tactics against some of the rarer fiends of Vana'diel, then you can do that as well. Want to pratice fighting against Kirin? Or King Behemoth? Fight against them here! Of course, you won't get the rare drops these enemies usually provide, but you can hone your abilities so when you do decide to go up against them, you're already ready for it. You can also use it to practice new skills in a safe setting. Just learnt Convert and Refresh, but want to practice using them without costing your party any experience? Come and try a few rounds in the arena!

Fights will cost you varying amounts of gil based on the type of fight you are participating in, varying from relatively low costs for 1v1 duels, to larger costs for the Kirin or King Behemoth fights. These larger fights will be hosts on the public arenas where possible to allow people to watch them.

If you want to 'hire' a smaller, private arena for a party, you can pay for a set amount of time, but have full access to a variety of tools. These will include spawning monsters, clearing the arena, resetting skill timers, and other abilities that you will find useful whilst training as a party. It gives people the ability to practice their skills in a safe environment so when they do train for real, they're prepared. This area may also include preset simulations such as dealing with links, creating chains, and magic bursts/skill chains.

Spectating
If you simply want to relax and watch some fighting, then you can spectate on one of the public arenas. The main arena is always going to be a spectacular battle, with either full alliances fighting it out, or groups taking on some powerful enemies! Grab a seat, cheer on your favorite team (even if it's the enemy!), and possibly learn a thing or two! The smaller arenas will still contain duels and smaller fights for you to watch as well, if the main arena isn't to your liking.

The smaller for hire arenas will allow spectators by invitation only. This would allow groups to organise mentors to come in and give them advice on the tactics they're working on, or simply just to watch them.

The smaller areans will be free for spectators. The larger public arenas will cost a small amount of money for your seat. However, there will be different payment options, ranging from purchasing a single ticket up to purchasing month long passes or yearly passes (with prices set appropriately).

Gambling
Unsolicited casinos are always a problem within Vana'diel. You have no guarantee that the person will even pay out if you 'win' their odds. The arena will have gamblers around that you can bet with on the outcome of battles. The odds will be set appropriately, and will change based on how much money is bet. There will be a maximum amount you are able to bet on a particular fight to avoid people coming in and dropping a few million on a fight to reduce the odds for everyone else.

Arena Rules
In order to create different types of fights, various rules could be put into place. These could be as simple as a free for all setting, all the way up to an even playing field where everyone is given a set equipment list and spell list for the fight in order to ensure the fight will be based on skill, not equipment. Obviously you would have to select what type of ruleset you wanted to compete in to ensure this is not abused, but this would allow people who cannot afford or don't have the resources to get all the 'best' gear to still compete and have fun.

Wishlist
This is basically features that would be nice, but don't necessarily have the basis in the game to work as it currently is.

Firstly, the ability for the arena to be cross-server. I'm aware there are firstly naming issues with this (players with the same name), as well as just the technical problems involved to begin with. But it would ensure the arena was booked out at virtually all times, and allow you to meet up with people on other servers whom you usually wouldn't be able.

Secondly, a free range camera, or at least the ability to see what a player is seeing. This would be only for spectators to avoid abuse, but would allow you to truely 'spectate' rather than just standing on the sidelines.

Reasons for SE to implement the Arena
The concept of the arena as a PvP tool would, I believe, be a boon for Final Fantasy. With many new MMORPGs being released nowadays such as World of Warcraft or Guild Wars that have a very strong PvP system in place, it's important for the future for SE to consider expanding the PvP options available in FFXI in order to not only keep people who are considering leaving in this game, but to attract new people who play the game for the PvP component. The rulesets will allow new players to compete immediately by increasing their level and skills temporarily, and will give them the ability to 'see' what their job is capable of as they level up, giving them a reason to level.

By creating the extra content, making it accessible to everyone (the Zilart missions are basically for 60+, and Chains of Promathia ones for 30+) regardless of any conditions, you will provide an extra time sink in the game. And since it is completely optional, and also provides the ability to 'train' in a safer setting, people not interested will continue doing what they are now, and those that feel they need extra training can come here. With any luck, it may even begin to solve the problem of 'horrible' parties that has often led to people not playing for periods of time.

It also creates another gil sink in the game. With real money trade becoming more and more of an issue, as shown by the inflation on various servers (over 400% on some items, depending on server), this will provide another way for money to disappear from the economy. However, with the gambling component, it will also provide a way for people to gain money without having to 'farm', which is another reason people leave the game. This would still be open to abuse by teams taking a dive in order to win money, and a solution would need to be found for this (suggestions are welcome.)

Please, feel free to comment on this and offer any suggestions for improving it.

Additions

Chocobo Racing
I was just perusing through the main boards and someone was pointing out the lack of any real type of gambling in Vana'diel, and suggested chocobo racing as a form of gambling. Since the type of gambling suggested earlier is open to abuse, then why not gamble on chocobo races?

Much like the system in Final Fantasy 7, where you can see all the various statistics on the chocobos that are racing, you can bet on the chocobos, and then watch them race around the arena. Since the chocobos would not be player controls, the system is not open to anywhere near as much abuse.

Other forms of gambling and entertainment
Whilst on the topic of chocobo races, and the resignation to the fact betting on fights with players is flawed, other forms of gambling could be made available, much like Final Fantasy 7. Instead of just fighting, the arena could become much like the Golden Saucer, providing all kinds of entertainment and ways for players to whittle away their time whilst not being overly dependant on a player attaining a certain level.

Rewards for HNM 'practice' fights
Concept #1
People often complain that the Japanese have an unfair advantage over the rest of the world when it comes to camping HNMs. Personally I haven't experienced this first hand, however I've read through many of the solutions that people have proposed to it, ranging from making any drops Rare/Ex to forced spawns.

Whilst I'm not sure why SE have not implemented the forced spawn idea (most likely through a lengthy quest to obtain the item needed to still create the time sink with less frustration), if these monsters could be fought in the arena, you could have the option of paying a much larger fee for the fight, but still be able to get the drops. The fee could be variable based on the recent auction prices of the items the HNM could drop, or it could be a fixed price (although this would likely have to be in the millions, however split across multiple people, it would be easily achieveable).

Keep in mind tactics used in fights such as swapping groups of mages in and out so they can regain their MP would not be valid in the arena since only the alliance participating in the fight would be able to enter. So it may even be a more difficult fight than usual.

Concept #2
Another alternative would be to still only host one of these fights every 24 hours or whatever the typical spawn time happens to be, but instead of having to 'claim' the HNM, a tournament would be held beforehand, with the winning team being given the right to fight. This would still leave the system much like it is now, except that instead of it being a battle of who has the fastest fingers or the quickest voke macro, the team who can successfully defeat the other would be given the right to fight the HNM, eliminating the bickering between HNMLSs and people quitting due to the endgame being 'biased' towards people in Japan. (Once again, this observation is just that, an observation, I haven't tried to claim a HNM myself before.)

Response Summary

Match Style - Gauntlet
Borrowing from the arena in the Golden Saucer in Final Fantasy 7, a gauntlet match would pit either an individual or a group against increasingly difficult enemies (or groups of enemies). A level cap would be placed on participants based on the difficulty of the fight.

The objective would be to get through as many battles as possible without having everyone in the party die. A dead player would not be able to be resurrected in the gauntlet, meaning gradually players will fall until none are left.

At the end of each fight, prizes will be awarded and added to a pool. You will be given the option after each fight to take the prize pool, or continue fighting. By continuing to fight, you risk losing the entire contents of the prize pool, however the prize amounts increase as you fight.


Edited, Thu Jun 16 12:45:01 2005 by Drusenija
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#2 Jun 16 2005 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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Cool idea, except for the betting part. The reason for that being it could be a moneyspinner if someone decides to throw the match. It would be nice to battle monsters and see how you would fare against them (I have a personal grudge against Ruby Quadav myself).

A suggestion:

Gauntlet

This would be a series of increasingly tough battles. Simlilar to the monster arena in FF7 but without the handicaps. Battles would be staged with a series of level caps, with monsters to suit each cap. The number of enemies should match the number of participants in the party (closer to a 1v1 scenario).

After each battle is one, experience points would be added to the pot to be granted if the party chooses to leave the gauntlet. This way, the more battles you fight in the better the xp bonus when you leave. If you are defeated you gain no experience points and are ejected from the arena. Raise will not function during the gautlet.

Rewards:
Experience points granted depending on level cap and number of battles won.
Gil
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#3 Jun 16 2005 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Crystan wrote:
Cool idea, except for the betting part. The reason for that being it could be a moneyspinner if someone decides to throw the match. It would be nice to battle monsters and see how you would fare against them (I have a personal grudge against Ruby Quadav myself).


*nod* Yes, I mentioned this at the end of the betting section. Personally I think if a way could be created to avoid the abuse it would be a bit of fun, but it's just a matter of working out _how_ to avoid it. (Hence the 'suggestions welcome' *grins*)

Crystan wrote:
A suggestion:

Gauntlet

This would be a series of increasingly tough battles. Simlilar to the monster arena in FF7 but without the handicaps. Battles would be staged with a series of level caps, with monsters to suit each cap. The number of enemies should match the number of participants in the party (closer to a 1v1 scenario).

After each battle is one, experience points would be added to the pot to be granted if the party chooses to leave the gauntlet. This way, the more battles you fight in the better the xp bonus when you leave. If you are defeated you gain no experience points and are ejected from the arena. Raise will not function during the gautlet.

Rewards:
Experience points granted depending on level cap and number of battles won.
Gil


I like the idea of this ^_^ I would try to avoid having XP as the reward however, only because the reason for this to exist is basically a haven from levelling ^_^ As soon as XP becomes involved, you run into all the usual bickering over maximising XP and ejecting people detracting from it. The goal is to provide a fun alternative ^_^ Prize money however would be a good idea for this.

Other rewards could be a fame style system like the one adopted in WoW as of late (fame is probably the wrong word since FFXI already has a 'fame' system in place).

Then again, I'd be curious to hear people's opinion on gaining XP in the arena. Will it detract from the general levelling experience? Will people levelling in the arena make it harder to find a party in the real game? Would you actually _like_ to be able to party for XP in here if you can party with people from other servers?
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#4 Jun 16 2005 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Arena fame could be perfectly acceptable and even allow the implementation of quests for those who do seek to use the system a bit more as its own sort of reward. However, I am against this kind of fame being reliant on direct PvP. PvM will insure that no fights will be thrown since once a monster goes aggro, it stays that way until either you or it dies.

Granted, some people would consider this unfair to certain job classes, but it could also encourage people to investigate different subjob choices for survivability over damage/accuracy.

Any rewards acquired should be Rare/Ex. No price gouging to worry about and the only reason for a person not having something would be them being too lazy to get it.

So, yeah... "mini-games" like this would be nice.
#5 Jun 16 2005 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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That's a good point actually, having fame specifically for the arena. And prizes being Rare/Ex is definately a good point too.

And yes, fame could also be abused by a PvP style system with throwing fights, however if by losing you also lost fame, then it would probably give people less reason to throw fights. Whilst PvM would solve it, I do believe you need the PvP component in there as well. It's all going to come down to what the rewards are for having high fame, and if they're worth the hassle to do it. (Perhaps new items that are arena fame dependant? So if you do lose a few fights, the effects won't work?)
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#6 Jun 16 2005 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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I've talked about the same thing with my LS ingame. I'd love for an arena pvp system with other bonuses. I agree that fighting on player matches shouldn't be allowed but the idea of the chocobo races and gambling isn't as bad. I bet they could work out the spectator system of the arena to be something maybe like a maximum amount of attendees and for everyone that enters a generic figure is placed in the stands, but the person is actually placed on the battlefield but phased out. Like they are sneak/invisible untargetable and can't use abilities, so they could walk right into the battle around it view first person besides it upclose or just stand back for a grand view. I say a max amount of viewers as to reduce lag in the area, or maybe...those could be "prime" seating tickets, others pay for normal seats in the stands with a birds eye view.

Edited, Thu Jun 16 09:19:16 2005 by TrueDarkFire
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#7 Jun 16 2005 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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TrueDarkFire wrote:
I've talked about the same thing with my LS ingame. I'd love for an arena pvp system with other bonuses. I agree that fighting on player matches shouldn't be allowed but the idea of the chocobo races and gambling isn't as bad. I bet they could work out the spectator system of the arena to be something maybe like a maximum amount of attendees and for everyone that enters a generic figure is placed in the stands, but the person is actually placed on the battlefield but phased out. Like they are sneak/invisible untargetable and can't use abilities, so they could walk right into the battle around it view first person besides it upclose or just stand back for a grand view. I say a max amount of viewers as to reduce lag in the area, or maybe...those could be "prime" seating tickets, others pay for normal seats in the stands with a birds eye view.


I'm assuming you mean 'gambling on player matches' not fighting ^_~

And yes, I had considered that as a solution to spectating (being invisible and running around), but then as you said, you do run into the problem of lag. What would be ideal is the ability to simply choose one of the participants to follow around. That way you can have a ton of people in the area since only the people actually fighting will be sending any information (well, everyone will be sending _something_, but you get the idea), meaning everyone basically becomes a receiver. Bring up the list of people fighting, and then click on one to see their view.
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#8 Jun 16 2005 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I really do love the idea Dru...but I see one major technical problem that may sink it :-(

Lag.

If the spectators are in the same "area" (zone) as the Arena "floor" is, there's no way to prevent people from using /say or /emotes (or a*holes using /shout all the time, and you know they will).

Unless SE can come up with a way to make the Arena "floor" like a dungeon-zone and the stands like a city-zone, you'll also have the problem of people in the stands casting spells to pass time (mages practicing enhancing magic, for example).

I'm not a programmer, but I suspect that there's no way to make the Arena-Stands and Arena-Floor two seperate zones, and still allow people in the Stands to watch what happens on the Floor...as fun as this sounds, I'd be afraid of losing my connection if I was anywhere near a LS vs. LS "War" or a group of 75s fighting King Bahamut while 100 people ate mithkabobs and juice in the stands...

I *do* love the idea...SE might look at it and come up with a list of programming problems twice as big as the benefits though :-(
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#9 Jun 16 2005 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Lag would be a big problem.

However, instead of being "in" the arena itself, maybe you could have people go into something like a "viewing room" where they can shift the camera around themselves. Instead of being in seats where you really can't see very well, with this seperate room, you can switch to any suitable angle.

I love the idea, but the congestion would just be mind numbingly agitating.
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#10 Jun 16 2005 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
Lag would have to be addressed by making it possible to be in the zone, but not hear or see things other people are doing. For instance, if you entered as a DRG, maybe you could have it set up so you only see/hear/make contact with other DRG, and the fight of course.

Doesn't have to be according to jobs, but they could implement a system where everyone else is /blisted on a /sh or regular talk (but not in /tell or party or linkshell convos)

Then lag wouldn't be a problem.

For the betting thing, the only way this could be is if you have NPCs fight each other or mobs. Players would be able to abuse it, so it can't be done by people.

On a side note, I posted a suggestion with the name COLOSSEUM on it with a few of the things you have suggested here. Mostly same concept of a PvP arena. Check it out if you want.(should be a couple of pages back, don't know how to link yet.)
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#11 Jun 16 2005 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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God I hope SE read this forum.

So many good ideas lately.

This is one of them. =)
#12 Jun 16 2005 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXIandHALOtwoLOVER wrote:
On a side note, I posted a suggestion with the name COLOSSEUM on it with a few of the things you have suggested here. Mostly same concept of a PvP arena. Check it out if you want.(should be a couple of pages back, don't know how to link yet.)


*nod* I figured someone would have had to have suggested something similar, but I only went back two or three pages, and didn't see anything. I'll go have a look a bit later ^_^

Now regarding the lag issue, I can see it's going to be a big issue for a lot of people. However, I'm sure it would be possible to put chat filters in place whilst within the arena (ie, 'you cannot use that command here') and make available a /cheer style command so you can cheer on the team you want to win.

But yes, it is an issue that would need to addressed *frowns*
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#13 Jun 17 2005 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
Dru, I LOVE YOU!(Well not really but close enough!)

I've been thinking about PvP things since this game came out. When Ballista was implimented I found it interesting but I have never fully gotten into it myself. Your ideas here fit more to what I'd like to see.

Ra/Ex I think SE needs to take into consideration making more items Ra/Ex so we cut back on the economy issue SE has been ignoring since day one.(Sorry SE your AH tax implimentation only increased the problem.) If more drops became Ra/Ex it would make camping the NM's a couple time thing. Also in the event of making more drops Ra/Ex SE should take into consideration increasing Mog Safe and Inventory by a bit as well. I know if more drops were Ra/Ex I would do a LOT more camping of NM's because I would know I WOULD eventually get the mob and the item I would like to have.

Also with making more Drops Ra/Ex it would crush the gilselling that has been plaguing the Asura Server for so long. (Hate to say it SE but Asura is the worst Server for Gilselling and Gilbuying.

Now back to the Arena part: I think it would be great to have the chance to fight Gods and HNM's without having to collect all the items/quests, etc necessary to do these. No drops of course or perhaps drops but nothing NEAR as good as the real thing. Practice HNM's and Gods would help nit together those who intend to fight the real thing so that each player can fight at there full potential rather than rushing in not knowing what to expect.

Dueling: Now this idea is what I'm talking about. You got a grudge against someone? Challenge them to a duel. I think that by showing eachothers strengths and weakness grudges can be broken and friendships bonded. I feel this would help dampen the number or GM calls made about players who are insulted and want a GM to do something about it.(I personally detest calling a GM for anything. I tend to prefer gentle calm worded negotiations myself.... granted I have lost my temper in the past though because of stubborn and insultive people.)

Anyways my 3gil on this thread.

LX
#14 Jun 21 2005 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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*nod* I'd personally love a chance to fight in some of the God fights, although as anyone who knows me knows, at the rate I level, I'd never be a high enough level to be invited to a HNM fight ^_^

I don't see SE adding in _too_ many Rare/Ex items however, unless they change the system to allow R/E items to be sent between characters on the same account. Part of the reason they don't increase inventory sizes too much I'd guess is the extra revenue they get from mules. Have too many Rare/Ex items and you'd be forced to increase the inventory sizes since they're stuck on the one character, which also means people may not need as many mules. If they did allow these items to be sent to characters on the same account (or even create a new 'tag' like Acct or something meaning it can be traded or sent to other characters on the same account, but not other players), then you'd fix that problem.

But yes, I would love the ability to duel as well ^_^ If it were set up that you could challenge someone anywhere and then be transferred to the arena for the fight, then back out again afterwards, you wouldn't even need to modify the current areas at all to allow conditional PvP ^_^

But yes. I do hope the developers do actually read this forum though ^_^ I want my arena! *laughs*
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