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#52 Dec 10 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Fahrenheit is more intuitive to you because it's what you know and have known for all of your life, Celsius requires as little thinking for me as Fahrenheit does to you and any argument that it's "more closely related to how you experience weather" is just bullsh*t.
I'll second this.

As someone who has to use both systems on a daily basis, they're both pretty intuitive once you've spent some time with them. My preference for Fahrenheit is the same as my preference for kilometers, the slightly smaller thingy is more preferable. With temperature it lets me be more precise without extra effort, and with measurement it feels like your diving faster when the kilometers melt away quickly (then you come back down to the states and it's like swimming in tar or something, takes so long...).
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#53 Dec 10 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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It was below zero (F) when I was in Montana last week and I was sad.

It's in the 50s (F) right now here in Georgia, but we're going to drop below freezing tonight, which counts as Very Cold for us.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 11:44am by Catwho
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#54 Dec 10 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Because "high 60s" or "around 15" are so different in accuracy or how easy they are to say.

And the whle closely related to how humans experien e weather makes no sense. Tell a Russian in Siberia that it's going to be 0F he'll be happy that it's not cold and if you tell Horsemouth it's going to be 0°C where he is he'll freeze to death just thinking about it.


They actually are different. When I'm telling someone "It's in the 80s" it's because I literally did not record any more info from that. All I remember is that tens digit.

"In the 20s" is FAR less useful with celsius.

"Around 84" and "Around 29" would be the appropriate logical equivalent. And even then, Fahrenheit is more useful. Because the range is smaller. +/- 1 in either direction still ends up with a range of 83-85 degrees celsius, but it turns into 28-30C (which is 82 - 86). A standard deviation of another degree adds another two to the celsius to fahrenheit ratio.

And because we're talking about human error, not the actual weather fluctuation, that's a reasonable deviation to assume.

As for the other critique, considering the vast majority of humans live in places where >100 is really freaking hot and <0 is really freaking cold, I'm comfortable saying I don't care that it's not a perfect system for someone in Siberia. I mean, our 24 hour structure doesn't make much sense for people living far enough north/south where their days don't follow that cycle. That's not a reasonable critique of the system, it just makes them an extreme outlier of human experience.
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#55 Dec 10 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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80's is equivalent to "low 20s". Once you start using a number like that you've removed the benefits of Fahrenheit. It's benefits are that it's more accurate than Celsius. Start rounding off and it's no better and is simply a matter of preference.

When I see low 20s, I know its warm. When I see 80's, I have to ask if that's warm or hot.

You're entering Alma territory with your argument Iddigory.
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#56 Dec 10 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tell someone in the Netherlands that it's going to be 30°C (or 85F) and they'll start stocking up on icecream and if it lasts for more than 2 or 3 days it's considered a heat wave. Yet less than1000km further south it's just a regular summer day and it's not considered to be abnormally hot until it reaches 40°C (104F). Similarly, 10°C (50F) is just regular autumn weather in the Netherlands but 15-17°C (60ish F) is seen as ******* cold in Barcelona given how many people were wearing thick winter coats, hats, gloves and scarves while at the same time I was considering taking off my sweater because it was too warm in the sun.

Temperature and how humans experience it differs so greatly between so many people that saying one system relates better to how humans experience temperature is pretty much nonsense.
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#57 Dec 10 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mean, I use Farenheit here, but I can see that it's really just about whatever you're used to. If the temperature scale went from watermelon to ham sandwich, knowing where a grilled cheese fell on the scale would be intuitive to you if you've used that one scale and only it for your whole life.
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#58 Dec 10 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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#59 Dec 10 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Me too, besides it's hot chocolate outside with a chance of bacon, so I'll be watching the radar closely.
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#60 Dec 10 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
With temperature it lets me be more precise without extra effort

And here I thought this was the point. A five degree difference in Celsius is a lot bigger swing than a five degree difference in Fahrenheit. Otherwise, it's whatever you're used to.

I might wear a jacket if it's 50F outside, and I might still wear one if it's 55F. A five degree swing in Fahrenheit is not changing my plans. But a five degree swing in Celsius can be the difference between wearing a jacket or not (10C = 50F, but 15C = 59F and I'm not wearing a jacket if it's 59F). Although I certainly agree that this single point is not something to base the decision between C and F on.

Woke up at 5:30 this morning because of an urge to run to the bathroom, and saw that it was not snowing. The weather report called for snow overnight. Went back to bed happy that I could push the alarm back to normal rising time since I would not have to allow for a longer commute. Woke back up at 7:30 to over an inch of snow. Oh well.


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#61 Dec 10 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
80's is equivalent to "low 20s". Once you start using a number like that you've removed the benefits of Fahrenheit. It's benefits are that it's more accurate than Celsius. Start rounding off and it's no better and is simply a matter of preference.

When I see low 20s, I know its warm. When I see 80's, I have to ask if that's warm or hot.

You're entering Alma territory with your argument Iddigory.


Well it's a scale from 0-100 with 0 being "really freaking cold" and 100 being "really freaking hot" which would pretty obviously put 80 in the "yeah, this is pretty **** warm" range. Smiley: lol

Obviously any system is going to take adjusting to. My only point is that F is more practical with less information. If all I know is that the temperature is somewhere in the 30s F, I can very easily figure out what I should be wearing. Knowing the temp is somewhere in the 30s C means that it's between 86F and 102F. And my response to that large a range of temperatures goes from "Okay, a T-shirt is fine" to "how little clothing can I wear without being arrested" to "I would rather die than go outside."

That's a really big distinction. Because each degree in F is related to a smaller increase in temperature, it has a much smaller margin of error.

That doesn't matter much at all, if you have the exact temperature and you're used to the system. It matters a lot if you're working on limited information and/or need to guess what the temp would be like. I can very easily plan to dress appropriately for any temperature in a 10 degree F range. I can't easily plan to dress appropriately for any temperature in a 10 degree C range.

Sure, that only matters if you often find yourself only knowing a 10 digit temperature range. But that's realistically how I go through most of my life. I suppose that could be cultural, but whatever.

Either way, when the radio tells me that the lows and highs are in the upper 60s, I have a 5 degree range to work in. If this was C and they were saying upper 20s, I have the equivalent of a 10 degree range. The information just isn't as valuable with a less precise system.
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#62 Dec 10 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If this was C and they were saying upper 20s, I have the equivalent of a 10 degree range.
To be fair I don't think they do this. I mean I don't exactly spend my life absorbing Canadian media or anything, but from the bits I've gathered over the years they seem more likely to say something like "high of 22 or 23" for time where we'd say "highs in the low 70's"
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#63 Dec 10 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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#64 Dec 10 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Either way, when the radio tells me that the lows and highs are in the upper 60s, I have a 5 degree range to work in. If this was C and they were saying upper 20s, I have the equivalent of a 10 degree range. The information just isn't as valuable with a less precise system.
When you say upper 60's, you're not being precise so you've made that argument irrelevant. The weather isn't typically given out as upper 20's, it's usually stated as a specific number, such as 28. And if it ends up 27 or 29 instead, doesn't change the overall temperature much, which would be equivalent to your 5 degree range. Even if we said upper 20s, 27-29C is 81-84F. Last I checked, that's not a 10 degree shift.
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#65 Dec 10 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Sure, that only matters if you often find yourself only knowing a 10 digit temperature range. But that's realistically how I go through most of my life. I suppose that could be cultural, but whatever.
It is purely cultural and I really don't see the difference in accuracy between saying it's "about 25°C" or "High 70's". Nobody says it's in the high tens or in the twenties for Celsius because that would be useless.
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#66 Dec 10 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Either way, when the radio tells me that the lows and highs are in the upper 60s, I have a 5 degree range to work in. If this was C and they were saying upper 20s, I have the equivalent of a 10 degree range. The information just isn't as valuable with a less precise system.
When you say upper 60's, you're not being precise so you've made that argument irrelevant. The weather isn't typically given out as upper 20's, it's usually stated as a specific number, such as 28. And if it ends up 27 or 29 instead, doesn't change the overall temperature much, which would be equivalent to your 5 degree range. Even if we said upper 20s, 27-29C is 81-84F. Last I checked, that's not a 10 degree shift.


Not really. There's little practical need to know exactly what the temperature is - a 5 F range is going to be exactly the same in nearly every scenario (the one exception I can think of being whether or not there's ice on the ground).

In the US, I most frequently hear temperature ranges rather than actual numbers. Which we do because it's quick, easy, and gives all the information you need. You can't do that with celsius, which is kind of my point. You're forced to be more exact, because your system doesn't allow for the extreme shorthand and still function.

I'm much happier being able to glance at the temperature and make the barest possible note of what it is and still be appropriately dressed. I see 87 and it gets recorded as "upper 80s" and that's what I tell anyone who asks, because it's just easier and generally more accurate (since temperature changes).

His Excellency Aethien wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Sure, that only matters if you often find yourself only knowing a 10 digit temperature range. But that's realistically how I go through most of my life. I suppose that could be cultural, but whatever.
It is purely cultural and I really don't see the difference in accuracy between saying it's "about 25°C" or "High 70's". Nobody says it's in the high tens or in the twenties for Celsius because that would be useless.


It's not a difference in accuracy at all. That wasn't my critique. My critique is that the two statements aren't logically equivalent. You have to deliver more information for celsius to be as useful as Fahrenheit.

If I tell someone it's in the 80s, it's because I have no clue what the specific digit is. As in, it could be 82, it could be 88. But that doesn't matter too much, because the degree increment is smaller.

Telling someone it's in the 30s C is the logically equivalent statement. I'm sure it's not a common one, because it's not particularly useful.

Sure, you can say "high 30s", but you can only say that if you know information I DIDN'T know when talking about Fahrenheit. Because I can still say "high 80s" (if I had that info), and be more exact.

That's my point. Fahrenheit lets me go through life recording the barest possible amount of info and that's never a problem. In a celsius system, you can't do that, because your ones unit matters.

[EDIT]

I'm not exactly advocating the rest of the world change or anything. I don't care that much. But I'm bored and debate is more fun than work.

But this is the only American standard of measurement I think actually IS more useful than the rest of the world's. For anything scientifically rigorous, there's celsius. But my daily experience temps are all made easier by using a system of whole integers wherever possible, rather than decimals.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:35pm by idiggory
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#67 Dec 10 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
You're entering Alma territory with your argument Iddigory.

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#68 Dec 10 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'm done. You're in full blown Alma mode, imo.
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#69 Dec 10 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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#70 Dec 10 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's not a difference in accuracy at all. That wasn't my critique. My critique is that the two statements aren't logically equivalent. You have to deliver more information for celsius to be as useful as Fahrenheit.

If I tell someone it's in the 80s, it's because I have no clue what the specific digit is. As in, it could be 82, it could be 88. But that doesn't matter too much, because the degree increment is smaller.

Telling someone it's in the 30s C is the logically equivalent statement. I'm sure it's not a common one, because it's not particularly useful.
Except you're just plain wrong here. Knowing roughly what temperature it is isn't about the number but what it feels/looks like. If you know it's in the 80's that translates to knowing it's in the high 30's if you were used to Celsius. It's the exact same information just written down/thought of in a different way.

So no, it's in the 30's °C is not the logically equivalent statement to it's in the 80's F.
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#71 Dec 10 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Digg wrote:
That's my point. Fahrenheit lets me go through life recording the barest possible amount of info and that's never a problem. In a celsius system, you can't do that, because your ones unit matters.


When you live, and have lived your entire life, in a country where Celsius is the temperature scale used, you can do that. If we're discussing the weather at work, we just don't use terms like "high" and "low". We use terms like "up to" if it's positive temperatures and "below" if it's negative temperatures. "Did you hear? It's going to dip below 0 tonight. We might get up to 15 degrees tomorrow, though." This is a very direct translation from Danish to English, by the way.

We don't say "It'll get up in the high 20's today", but we use "above 20", which implies 20-25. 25-30 is "almost 30" and 30+ is "ERMERGERD, HEAT WAVE, GUSY!!!!" because Scandinavian island climate is... well, wet.
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#72 Dec 10 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
the slightly smaller thingy is more preferable.
Not a phrase I ever expected to read on the OOT.

Edit: Well, maybe from Belkira.


Edited, Dec 10th 2013 1:57pm by Poldaran
#73 Dec 10 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


Not really. There's little practical need to know exactly what the temperature is - a 5 F

Tell that to the batch of Christmas toffee that failed on me last night. Apparently I didn't quite get it to 305F.
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#74 Dec 10 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
the slightly smaller thingy is more preferable.
Not a phrase I ever expected to read on the OOT.
If I've learned anything from my late night video viewing it's that many small things can combine to make one big thing.
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#75 Dec 10 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
the slightly smaller thingy is more preferable.
Not a phrase I ever expected to read on the OOT.
If I've learned anything from my late night video viewing it's that many small things can combine to make one big thing.


Freaky **** you watch, but go on...
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#76 Dec 10 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Quote:
It's not a difference in accuracy at all. That wasn't my critique. My critique is that the two statements aren't logically equivalent. You have to deliver more information for celsius to be as useful as Fahrenheit.

If I tell someone it's in the 80s, it's because I have no clue what the specific digit is. As in, it could be 82, it could be 88. But that doesn't matter too much, because the degree increment is smaller.

Telling someone it's in the 30s C is the logically equivalent statement. I'm sure it's not a common one, because it's not particularly useful.
Except you're just plain wrong here. Knowing roughly what temperature it is isn't about the number but what it feels/looks like. If you know it's in the 80's that translates to knowing it's in the high 30's if you were used to Celsius. It's the exact same information just written down/thought of in a different way.

So no, it's in the 30's °C is not the logically equivalent statement to it's in the 80's F.


I don't ever report temperature because of what it feels like. [:puzzled:]

I'll hear the temperature on the radio, remember that the person said it was eighty-something, and say it's in the 80s if asked.

[EDIT]

And I'm sure the system you've used for 20+ years is going to work far better for a country. I'm not advocating for change, here.

But if we were talking about which system should be used on board an international space colony, I'm gonna have to go with Fahrenheit.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 5:22pm by idiggory
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#77 Dec 10 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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International space colony? They'd use Celsius, because Fahrenheit isn't really used much outside of the U.S.

Also, a space colony would be comprised mostly of scientists, and they'd all use Celsius. Edit: Because the Celsius scale follows the Kelvin scale.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 11:44pm by Mazra
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#78 Dec 10 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It just works well. I can hear the temperature and know exactly how I feel about that.
That's a non argument though as it's purely reliant on what you're used to and I could use the exact same argument for Celcius.


But to the degree that we're placing any relevance at all on the usefulness of a "0-100 scale", 100 F is far more useful for determining "hot/cold" for humans than 100C. The boiling point of water is so far outside the range of anything useful in terms of human sensitivity as to be completely useless.

Quote:
I know instantly that, say 25°C is going to mean warm but not too hot and that -5°C means that half of the Netherlands is pitching a tent over the possibility of an Elfstedentocht.


Only because you've gotten used to an arbitrary number. It's not a "non-argument" to say that 100F is a good measurement that tells you instantly that "it's hot outside", while 40C really doesn't do the same thing at all. It's a very compelling argument, in fact.
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#79 Dec 10 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Also, a space colony would be comprised mostly of scientists, and they'd all argue over which unit of measurement to use and crash the rocket into Mars.
Smiley: nod
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#80 Dec 10 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Only because you've gotten used to an arbitrary number.


Unlike you guys? Your understanding of 0 to 100 is founded in science, right? That's why the scientific community uses Fahrenheit, right?
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#81 Dec 10 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
International space colony? They'd use Celsius, because Fahrenheit isn't really used much outside of the U.S.

Also, a space colony would be comprised mostly of scientists, and they'd all use Celsius. Edit: Because the Celsius scale follows the Kelvin scale.


Psh, clearly the Americans would be launching that thing. You'd be too busy trying to figure out which weird words to string together for its name...
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#82 Dec 10 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Only because you've gotten used to an arbitrary number.


Unlike you guys? Your understanding of 0 to 100 is founded in science, right? That's why the scientific community uses Fahrenheit, right?


I'm specifically not talking about the scientific community, but how the average joe is going to react to a number. Let's forget about the bottom end for a moment and look at the top end. 100F is a convenient number that tells us that "it's hot". 38C is just a random number. Why not 58? Or 78?

Any temperature scale is arbitrary. But the Fahrenheit scale is arbitrarily aligned to how temperatures feel to humans, while the Celsius scale is aligned to how water feels on a bunsen burner. One is useful in a lab, the other useful on the weather channel.
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#83 Dec 10 2013 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
One is useful in a lab and on the weather channel, the other only useful on the weather channel.
Fixed for accuracy.
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#84 Dec 10 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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You people take your units of temperature scale a little too seriously Smiley: um
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#85 Dec 10 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
You people take your units of temperature scale a little too seriously Smiley: um


It's because it's so cold outside, and those celsius bastards see our 20s and laugh. Smiley: mad
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#86 Dec 10 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Mazra wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Only because you've gotten used to an arbitrary number.


Unlike you guys? Your understanding of 0 to 100 is founded in science, right? That's why the scientific community uses Fahrenheit, right?


I'm specifically not talking about the scientific community, but how the average joe is going to react to a number. Let's forget about the bottom end for a moment and look at the top end. 100F is a convenient number that tells us that "it's hot". 38C is just a random number. Why not 58? Or 78?

Any temperature scale is arbitrary. But the Fahrenheit scale is arbitrarily aligned to how temperatures feel to humans, while the Celsius scale is aligned to how water feels on a bunsen burner. One is useful in a lab, the other useful on the weather channel.


But why put cold at 0 when the scale also uses negative numbers? Doesn't it make more sense to put a negative number as cold and a positive number as hot? Like -100 ºF to +100 ºF? Minus means frost on the Celsius scale, which makes more sense to me than "Oh, it'll drop below 32 tonight"...

I get that 0-100 is a nice scale for mathematically challenged people, but come on. You're taught negative numbers in first grade. Why not use them?
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#87 Dec 10 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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You're taught negative numbers in first grade. Why not use them?


You're seriously overestimating the American school system.
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#88 Dec 10 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe Dr. Joe Fahrenheit thought anyone who called one degree F "cold" was a pansy.
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#89 Dec 10 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
I get that 0-100 is a nice scale for mathematically challenged people, but come on. You're taught negative numbers in first grade. Why not use them?


By that argument no scale is better or worse than any other. We could peg 0 at the temperature that bacon grease congeals and 100 at the temperature of a mongoose ****, and it would be just as useful.

So we're left with a choice between not caring about whether the numbers are arbitrary, in which case Fahrenheit and Celsius are equal (as are any randomly chosen scale for that matter), or we decide we actually do care about the numbers having some relevance to human perception of hot/cold, in which case Fahrenheit is superior.

So basically, if we don't care what we use, they're the same, but if we do, then Fahrenheit is superior. Are we agreed on this? Smiley: tongue
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#90 Dec 10 2013 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
There's only two thermal measurements in a space station that matter:

A>. Nominal

B>. +3 Kelvin, because you have a hull breach.
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#91 Dec 10 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
So basically, if we don't care what we use, they're the same, but if we do, then Fahrenheit is superior. Are we agreed on this? Smiley: tongue
Only if we're speaking about a specific temperature, such as 88F and not something with a range like the 80's.
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#92 Dec 10 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
So basically, if we don't care what we use, they're the same, but if we do, then Fahrenheit is superior. Are we agreed on this? Smiley: tongue


No, because...

gbaji wrote:
...we decide we actually do care about the numbers having some relevance to human perception of hot/cold...


...and perception is subjective. Smiley: tongue

Anyway, this is a pointless discussion. Whether the scale is based on the freezing point of water or brine, what matters is our ability to understand them. Same with the metric vs the imperial system. The rest of the world uses the metric system (and Celsius), but fine... be a special snowflake. Smiley: rolleyes
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#93 Dec 10 2013 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
but fine... be a special snowflake. Smiley: rolleyes

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Belkira wrote:
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