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#27 Dec 16 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Sweetums wrote:
KTurner wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better.


I read it as him describing a phase that a lot of kids that age go through, not describing true transgender people.


Correct. I'm saying that to attempt to diagnose someone as transgender at that age is ridiculous. Nearly every kid at some point goes through a stage where they want to be the other gender, or dress like the other gender, or play with dolls/trucks/whatever that the other gender seems associated with. And for the vast majority of them it has *nothing* to do with being transgender.

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I played with barbies at 3, my son played with dolls, dollhouses and cupcake kitchen sets. Doesn't mean I should turn him into a woman.
Uhhh, and you wouldn't be. Many transexual people actually criticize these strict gender roles because when THEY don't conform themselves, they have to go through this bullsh*t song and dance to get the medical treatment they need.


Sure. Which was what I was talking about by harm done though. If the odds of your three year old boy who likes to play dolls being transgender is one in 10,000, then taking him to a therapist and treating him based on the assumption that he *is* transgender is going to harmfully confuse 9,999 kids for every one it saves from harmful confusion.

Another way to look at it is that the pressure to "conform" to society's gender assumptions act as a test for transgenders. If after constantly being told you're wearing the wrong clothes, or the wrong hairstyle, and a zillion other things, you *still* believe it feels more right to you to do those things then otherwise, then you aren't confused anymore. If you remove those pressures, you might save the rare transgender a bit of embarassment and confusion growing up (cause if everyone is wearing and acting differently they wont stick out), but it's going to create even more problems for everyone else.


Whether it's fair to transgenders or not, the societal norms are norms for a reason. It's what most people conform to and are comfortable with. It seems counter productive to make everyone uncomfortable so that a small percentage can feel less so. And in this case attempting to make that decision at such a young age is pretty ridiculous.

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You don't have to worry about homones until you're older. All a little boy needs to look like a little girl is basically a dress.


Sure. But do we decide that since said little boy wanted to wear dresses when he was three that he must be transgendered and tell his parents that they should encourage him to wear dresses, and put braids in his hair, and otherwise pressure him to continue with that as his gender identity? How far do we shelter said boy from society in order that he not ever be exposed to the idea that others might think what he's doing is unusual? How many years do you keep doing this?

IMO, that's going to ***** him up far far more than actually being transgender in todays society. And it doesn't really help him in the long run either.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 5:45pm by gbaji
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#28 Dec 16 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering you're neither transgender nor a medical professional, I'm going to go with, "how the **** do you know?"
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#29 Dec 16 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
Considering you're neither transgender nor a medical professional, I'm going to go with, "how the @#%^ do you know?"


Thank you! I couldn't have said it better.
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#30 Dec 16 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
My point was that, if you are considering gender as being something they actively choose for any logical reason, you've already missed the point. No child has a conception of their gender at 3. Doesn't mean they aren't actually already conforming to one or the other (or neither).

Your gender identity is an psychological development, formed by your societal definitions of genders. You never consciously stop and really consider it or choose one.


Yes, that was all very clear.

You still don't seem to have realised your mistake, despite it being spelt out to you by two different people. I wonder why?
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#31 Dec 16 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Transsexual and Transgender are two totally different things. You can be one without being the other (or both).

There are 3 major issues I had with gbaji's post:

1. He assumes that to be transgendered is to be transsexual. This is absolutely not the case, and it is actually one of the biggest political (and social) obstacles faced by trans peoples. Most trans people never take hormone supplements or undergo sexual reassignment surgery.

2. He assumes that gender identity is the same as preference for "masculine" or "feminine" practices. Gender identity is WAY deeper than that. Anyone who assumes that their little boy is a little girl because he likes putting on dresses or playing with barbies is a frickin' moron. First of all, children learn to associate practices with a gender identity over time. Their own gender identity is a much deeper concept--they have one, yeah, but the most important thing is to let them explore it freely. General therapy is the best way to do that--positively reinforcing their ability to make a choice and deal with the stress it puts on them. Hormone therapy to delay the onset of puberty gives them additional time to make a choice regarding their body without a biological clock dictating things.

3. He assumes that gender identity isn't always in flux. Gender identity itself is something obtained from social scenarios. Are there basic psychological differences between male and female brains? Yes. And they will influence what end of a spectrum most males/females end up at. But what those ends look like, and how far apart they are, is entirely determined by society. It's a learned behavior.

Furthermore, gender identity is always fluid for everyone--plenty of people transition back and forth between identities, precisely because there isn't any intrinsic identity to their biology. Most of them end up settling somewhere eventually. But that's not universally true. The notion that the child is being forced to choose between two opposing gender identities is just not true.

gbaji was worried that a child would be pressured into another identity. For any good clinic, this isn't possible--the program would be set up in a distinctly non-hetero (or ****)normative way. Their goal is to provide a safe space where the child can naturally allow their gender identity to form without having to deal with heteronormative pressures since, realistically, the chances of the child ending up in a heteronormative identity are slim.
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#32 Dec 16 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
For any good clinic
In a ****** up world like ours can you really use a caveat like that?
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#33 Dec 16 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
For any good clinic
In a @#%^ed up world like ours can you really use a caveat like that?

Okay, that's fair. Smiley: frown
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#34 Dec 17 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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This is all very unnatural.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#35 Dec 17 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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21/2 + 7 = 17. That's what this thread is about, right?

Age/7+2 is superior rule
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#36 Dec 17 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Reread the article and the discussion.

I think as a child I was more gender-neutral than I was firmly feminine, or female-acting-male. I liked everything. Barbies, micro machines, ponies, transformers, dresses, and military uniforms... I didn't like shopping much as a child, but that was because I knew it cost money my family probably didn't have. I loved roller skating but also dirt biking. My parents were dismayed, but eventually rolled with it because I did love to wear dresses and skirts. I faced difficulties in school (that I now trace back to my last name, honestly, it was too weird) but none of them had to do with gender-identity.

The child in the article, however, was not in that situation. Although she also liked some boys things, she clearly identified as feminine and so far doesn't seem to be regretting her decision at age 14. I think the support of her family is the most valuable thing. Seems like her dad has had to change almost as much as she did.

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#37 Dec 17 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Reread the article and the discussion.

...

The child in the article, however, was not in that situation. Although she also liked some boys things, she clearly identified as feminine and so far doesn't seem to be regretting her decision at age 14. I think the support of her family is the most valuable thing. Seems like her dad has had to change almost as much as she did.



In the article, yes. My question was more of a general nature.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#38 Dec 17 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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#39 Dec 17 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Is 2 too young? Almost definitely.

Is 10 too young? Probably not. In any case, the time left for you to start using hormone therapy is quickly dissipating (if not already passing).

So it's probably somewhere in there. Honestly, it has to be on a case-by-case basis, since every child is going to be different.
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#40 Dec 17 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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IM 9 DONT SAY THAT
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#41 Dec 17 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?
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#42 Dec 17 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?


Nope, for Usagi it would be Age-Age-1 month.
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#43 Dec 17 2011 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?


Nope, for Usagi it would be Age-Age-1 month.
Naw, Usagi doesn't like 'em til they are old enough to put on a princess or sailor moon costume.
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#44 Dec 19 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Havne't read thread, but I know that there's sort of two opposing problems. One huge one is that the earlier you start hormone therapy (like at the start of puberty) the more successful the gender transformation is. If you start at the start of puberty, you'll come out looking like the opposite ***, whereas if you start at the end of puberty, in many if not most cases you'll always look like an obvious Tranny. That can be really hard on males who wish to look feminine. Women transitioning to men are often more successful.

Of course, the Start Early If You Want To Actually Look Like The Opposite *** thing clashes horribly with the maturity and identity problem. Yes, young kids can know early if they are attracted to one *** over another... but sexual identity is harder to pin down, when society still imposes (in a collective unconscious way) such strict gender rules. Why do only male performers get to wear eyeliner and nailpolish?

Really little kids are allowed, even encouraged, to use their imagination and explore by playing with dress-ups and all variety of toys. Then they get beaten up or ostracised at school if they innocently bring up something they like that is "wrong" for a girl, or especially a boy.

"Tom-boys", while uncool, get their own category and legitimacy. A girly boy is just "***", even when he's not.
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#45 Dec 19 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Any parent that says their three or four year old is capable of discerning their own gender identity needs to be investigated for child abuse. It worked out for them, but ten out of nine times I'd have placed money on the parents wanting a boy and a girl instead of two boys so they manipulated the kid into that role. Seriously, twins that young, and one just happens to like dresses and such? Where was he getting those dresses? Sounds too **** suspicious to me.

Ok, I read the article. She was getting her mother's clothes and shoes out of her closet, and wearing them, mostly. And seriously? Even if she didn't have access to female clothes in the family home, she would have seen women's and girl's clothing out in public and in kindergarten, and could have developed preferences for how they looked compared to the clothing most men wore.

The younger a child is, the more naive it is. But never ever underestimate a child's capability for intelligence, for rationing things out when bumping into first principles. They are learning machines, with eidetic memories usually until the age of 9. A two year old can structure a very complex and abstract thought. They just have a harder time getting their mouth around it.

In this case there was no final "descision" for Wyatt to become Nicole, when he was 3 or 4 or 5. There was just strong patterns of behaviour that were completely consistent over the entire course of his/her childhood, leading his parents to seeek medical advice for their son/daughter, leading to the descision for Nicole to go on Hormone blockers when she was 11, and then leading to her beginning female hormones at 14, when she was still convinced she wanted a woman's body to go with her mind, her tastes, and her preferences.

Edited, Dec 19th 2011 2:44pm by Aripyanfar
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#46 Dec 19 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I were a boy named Wyatt, I would probably do whatever it took to convince my parents to change my name, too.
#47 Dec 19 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't mind the name, personally. At least he wasn't something like Quincy.
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#48 Dec 19 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
If I were a boy named Wyatt, I would probably do whatever it took to convince my parents to change my name, too.


Wyatt Earp has a bone to pick with you.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#49 Dec 19 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
There are 3 major issues I had with gbaji's post:

1. He assumes that to be transgendered is to be transsexual. This is absolutely not the case, and it is actually one of the biggest political (and social) obstacles faced by trans peoples. Most trans people never take hormone supplements or undergo sexual reassignment surgery.


I made no such assumption. However, it can be argued that the parents in the article *did*. How the **** do you diagnose a gender identity issue at age 3?

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2. He assumes that gender identity is the same as preference for "masculine" or "feminine" practices. Gender identity is WAY deeper than that. Anyone who assumes that their little boy is a little girl because he likes putting on dresses or playing with barbies is a frickin' moron.


So you agree with me that the parents were frickin' morons? You're kinda making my point for me here.

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First of all, children learn to associate practices with a gender identity over time.


Yes. Over time. Do you see how taking your child to a gender clinic at age three because he's wearing dresses is a bad idea?

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Their own gender identity is a much deeper concept--they have one, yeah, but the most important thing is to let them explore it freely.


Therapy at that age is incredibly unlikely to do that, and far more likely to impose the assumption of a transgender condition which the clinic is biased to see and act on.

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3. He assumes that gender identity isn't always in flux.


No, I didn't. The parents who responded to their boy wearing dresses by thinking "OMG! Our child might be transgender, let's take him to a clinic to be told it's ok to want to be a girl" instead of the far more rational "it's probably a phase". Which, if you'd actually read my earlier posts was what I was saying from the start.

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Gender identity itself is something obtained from social scenarios. Are there basic psychological differences between male and female brains? Yes. And they will influence what end of a spectrum most males/females end up at. But what those ends look like, and how far apart they are, is entirely determined by society. It's a learned behavior.


Yes. We learn gender roles as we develop. And we learn most of that stuff *after* the age of 3. And guess what? Going to a transgender clinic is also going to change how that child learns gender roles and will influence that child's ultimate gender identity.

I think what you're failing to get is that I fully accept that society does tend to teach/pressure children to adopt gender roles based on their ***. The difference is that I see that in the overwhelming majority of cases this is going to derive a better result for the person than to introduce a counter education teaching the child different gender roles (which is essentially what such a clinic will do). I'll point out again that societal norms are norms for a reason. It's what most of the society is comfortable with. Deliberately teaching a child to adopt a gender identity at odds with that norm is just leaping pain and suffering on said child.

If a child sticks with a different gender role on their own despite pressures otherwise *then* you can go down the transgender therapy route. But there's no way in **** anyone's honestly making that determination at age 3. It would be questionable to make that determination at age 10 IMO.

Quote:
Furthermore, gender identity is always fluid for everyone--plenty of people transition back and forth between identities, precisely because there isn't any intrinsic identity to their biology. Most of them end up settling somewhere eventually. But that's not universally true. The notion that the child is being forced to choose between two opposing gender identities is just not true.


Of course they are. And it's naive to insist otherwise. For good or bad we *do* force such choices on people. Pressures to conform to gender roles are all around us all the time. And while we may rail against such pressure, the reality is that most people conform and most people are happier because of it. That may suck and all, but that's the reality of the world we live in.

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gbaji was worried that a child would be pressured into another identity.


What other purpose could such therapy serve? Think about it.

Quote:
For any good clinic, this isn't possible--the program would be set up in a distinctly non-hetero (or ****)normative way. Their goal is to provide a safe space where the child can naturally allow their gender identity to form without having to deal with heteronormative pressures since, realistically, the chances of the child ending up in a heteronormative identity are slim.


Huh? Given that somewhere near 99.9% of all people end up with a heteronomative identity, I'd say that the odds of a 3 year old boy, even one who likes to wear dresses at that age, ending up heteronormative are incredibly high. They are high unless you send him to such a clinic. That's not to say that the parents didn't get incredibly lucky and happen to completely misdiagnose their child's dress wearing in a way which matched a reality they couldn't possibly know about their child at that age and said child really was transgender and the clinic helped save said child from a life of feeling like he/she is in the wrong body.

But the odds are that they just used the clinic to turn their otherwise normal child into a transexual with all the attendant social negatives that will cause over his/her lifetime. Because as you say, gender identity is largely learned behavior. Age three is certainly young enough to teach a child to adopt any gender identity you want to teach them. And I share a healthy skepticism about a clinic dedicated to teaching people to accept different gender roles being very likely to conclude that any child brought to them isn't a transexual.
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#50 Dec 19 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
No, I didn't. The parents who responded to their boy wearing dresses by thinking "OMG! Our child might be transgender, let's take him to a clinic to be told it's ok to want to be a girl" instead of the far more rational "it's probably a phase". Which, if you'd actually read my earlier posts was what I was saying from the start.


I have far less tolerance for your trite drivel than most here, so I'll admit I merely skimmed your post. However, the quoted statement above proves without a doubt that you neither read the full article nor understand the scenario it presents, and implies that you are merely speaking from your own well documented inner fear of "teh gays" and anything that might be associated with alternative lifestyles.

Eat a **** and stop diluting the discourse.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#51 Dec 19 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Your entire response was more pig-headed than the initial post. You are a stain on humanity far more reasons than just those Brown articulated. If you need to believe that a transgender identity is forced upon someone, then you are pathetic.

Why does it terrify you so much that people wouldn't define themselves by the gender roles you've arbitrarily chosen? YOU don't have to do them. These are parents who are looking for the best way to support their child, which I find incredibly commendable. Yes, things start getting murky when we talk about medical treatments, but anyone willing to go out of their own comfort zone for the sake of their child's happiness, instead of just forcing societal standards on them, is way above average in my book.
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