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#52 Dec 19 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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From today forth, my gender is oogleblarg, and none of you can say anything about it or else I'll call you out for oogleblarg discrimination! Smiley: mad
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#53 Dec 19 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
From today forth, my gender is oogleblarg, and none of you can say anything about it or else I'll call you out for oogleblarg discrimination! Smiley: mad


That'll go nice with AshOnMyTomato's bloodle oodle oodle.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#54 Dec 19 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji is just terrified we'll discover hisher real name is gbaja.
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#55 Dec 19 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If you need to believe that a transgender identity is forced upon someone, then you are pathetic.


I said that a transgender identity *can* be forced upon someone. Just as any other gender identity can.

You use an interestingly vague turn of phrase though. It's like you know that I'm not saying that "all" transgenders have their identity forced upon them, but you want to suggest it anyway. Funny.

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Why does it terrify you so much that people wouldn't define themselves by the gender roles you've arbitrarily chosen?


Why do some people assume that when someone makes an argument like the one I'm making that it's motivated by some kind of fear? And how many times do I have to mention societal norms before you'll realize that we're not talking about roles *I* have chosen (arbitrarily or otherwise).


Quote:
These are parents who are looking for the best way to support their child, which I find incredibly commendable. Yes, things start getting murky when we talk about medical treatments, but anyone willing to go out of their own comfort zone for the sake of their child's happiness, instead of just forcing societal standards on them, is way above average in my book.


Sure. My point, which seems to have sailed over some people's head is that we need to be incredibly careful when making decisions about gender identity at a young age and doubly so if we're encouraging (intentionally or not) gender identity which is outside the societal norms. As I stated earlier, I don't make those norms, but they exist. Anyone who acts outside those norms *will* suffer negative consequences. Not because I'm a meanie, or I hate them or anything. Don't shoot the **** messenger. I'm simply pointing out that those norms exist for a reason, and that those outside them will find their lives more difficult purely as a result.


Given that default negative involved with any form of transgender alignment, if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible. The harm done to a transgender from that is minimal next to the harm they'll suffer just from being transgender anyway (no matter what their parents encourage or discourage). But the harm from a kid who might have passed through the whole thing as a phase and moved on if he'd been encouraged to but wasn't is vastly greater.


Those aren't my rules. I didn't make them up. But they are the reality of the society we live in. We can sit here and dream about a perfect world in which to live, but someone has to be the realist to point out that it's probably a good idea to do everything you can to discourage your male children from wearing dresses. Not because in a perfect world there's anything wrong with that, but because in the very real and imperfect world we actually live in, he'll likely be much better off as a result. Again, I don't make the **** rules.
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#56 Dec 19 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji is just terrified we'll discover hisher real name is gbaja.


That's lady gbaja to you!
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#57 Dec 19 2011 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji is just terrified we'll discover hisher real name is gbaja.


That's lady gbaja to you!
You were just born that way.Smiley: schooled
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Sandinmygum wrote:
VorxDargo1 wrote:
who the h3ll do you think you are anyway?
According to your logic, I'm like an FFXIV God. You can call me Sand. I want sand, buckets of it. And Everclear..lots and lots of everclear.
#58 Dec 19 2011 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji is just terrified we'll discover hisher real name is gbaja.


That's lady gbaja to you!
You were just born that way.Smiley: schooled


Someone rate this guy up for me, even if he's already at excellent when you read this.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#59 Dec 20 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Since there seems to be a lot of confusion about when gender identity is formed, I thought I'd share that the medical community considers core identity to be formed at around 2-3 years of age, and it is usually fully established by age 5. That's not to say that children know exactly who and what they are at that age, but I think they have a lot better idea of what they want for their bodies than some people are giving them credit for. It's by no means a simple problem, but I think it's reasonable for a child to be able to make a decision like that at the age of 10, and I give credit to any parent who would support them.
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#60 Dec 20 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji is just terrified we'll discover hisher real name is gbaja.


That's lady gbaja to you!
You were just born that way.Smiley: schooled


Someone rate this guy up for me, even if he's already at excellent when you read this.


Done, and done.

Edited, Dec 20th 2011 2:26am by Timelordwho
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#61 Dec 20 2011 at 5:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji? Your completely clueless. Read better and if you need to actually research it! Better yet listen to the
TG that posts here! I'm telling you again for the last time. I always knew something was wrong. I was trapped in the wrong body. It was there as far back as I can remember. TG's are wired wrong for their gender. Female brain in a male body. Its a proven fact. No matter how much one visits a psychiatrist or therapist to deal with it and be a man it never ever goes away. I can surely say that at age 3 I was a girl and knew it. I really wish that my parents had stopped trying to make me a boy and then a man and had let me change into what I needed to be when I was a young child.
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#62 Dec 20 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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My favorite part is when he insists that they are going to turn innocent, heteronormative babies into dirty, organ-hating trannies.

Nevermind that he has absolutely no reason for thinking that it's possible, let alone likely.
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#63 Dec 20 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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ITT: A lot of people who don't understand anything about **** (the physical trait, not the fun passtime/baby making process) and gender talking about it and confusing themselves into a state where they understand even less.

Sup OoT, another TG poster bargin' up in your thread here to lay down some explanifying. I've still got a very clear memory of my childhood, since I'm only 20, so I think I may be able to clear some stuff up for you guys.

Gender Identity is easiest to explain by describing it as the brain's version of a penis/vagina. It's something hardwired into your physical make up from before you're even born, and is a static, unchanging variable in a person's core self. Basically, the most accurate way for someone not in the field of sex/gender studies, and/or someone who is not trans, to think of how being trans works, is like a form of intersex (hermaphroditic) birth defect, but rather than developing intersex characteristics in the genitalia, as one would typically assume, they are split between the external sexual characteristics, and the internal ones.

to be more blunt; rather than developing some degree of both a **** and a vagina, a trans individual develops externally "normal" genitalia of one sex, but at the same time develops internally as the other sex.

To everyone questioning the validity of knowing your gender at a young age, I'll posit that like tailmon and myself, there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of trans people who can and do regularly attest to the fact that, yes, they have felt this way since they were only 3-4 years old. In fact, I used to have some quick links to studies done that supported this, but I can't find them atm. In fact, even among the transpeople who don't expressly state that they knew for certain when they were young, there are many who can clearly remember a distinct feeling of something being very wrong with their body. This perfectly describes the feeling of those who do say they knew, it's just that in the case of those who don't, they simply lacked a proper way of identifying what they felt. To explain more in depth and in a less convoluted, vague manner, I'll just give my own personal version

My earliest memories are of me when I was three. I can go back through every childhood memory, all the way back, and I'll find the same, powerful feeling of something being "different" or "wrong". It's hard to describe this feeling in a way that allows people who aren't trans to understand it, though, which is what causes a lot of the confusion and doubt. For myself, I never had a name for what I felt. I knew I liked doing girl things, playing in a way girls played, watching "girl" shows on tv, etc. It's not just as simple as playing with dolls over trucks, because there are plenty of transgirls who identify as tomboys. I was raised catholic, though, and in the midwest. The idea of "maybe I'm supposed to be a girl" itself didn't cross my mind until I was 12, at which point I had my retroactive **** epiphany and realized I was trans, though I still didn't find the name for what I was until several months later. As I matured and went through gradeschool, middle school, and high school, the feeling of what I was interested in matured with me, but never strayed from the "female" line of thought. Not just "feminine", or "girly", but straight up female. The core of the feeling of "wrongness" that I, and basically every other transperson, feel, never changed, and feels the same now, at 20, as it did when I was 3.

To try and explain how it feels, the only real example I can give that even comes close would be this; Have you ever had a significant amount of hair cut off? For ladies (and some guys), going from long, long hair, like, down past your shoulderblades, to having hair up near your ears. For guys, something like going from shaggy hair to a 1/8 buzz cut, or even a completely shaven head. When you suddenly had that much hair missing, it felt... weird, right? You were consciously aware of your head more than normal because your hair felt completely different, especially right after you got it cut. If you can picture what I'm getting at, that's about 1% of the intensity. For me, it wasn't as bad as a young kid. I would say that hair feeling was about 10% of how strongly the "wrongness" felt up until around when I hit puberty. Once you hit puberty, when you're trans, it's kind of like someone set forcefed you downers, because you know your body is already wrong, but it's only going to get worse.

To the people posting here about how there is no way a kid can know that young (I love you gaxey, but you're so wrong on this it's painful), I'll simply give you three things;

First: the number of people who transition, but stop halfway through because they changed their minds and decided they aren't trans is about 1%. 99% of the people who stop halfway through transition do so because of financial issues, or because of significant family or peer pressure to stop.

Second: Prior to puberty, there is absolutely no need for chemical treatments of a child who identifies as trans. Little boys and girls develop fairly androgynously most of the way, and typically, the first step for hormonal treatment is near, or at, the onset of puberty, where the child is given hormone-blockers to prevent puberty from causing irreversible changes. It's not typically until 11 or 12 that the "do we just delay puberty, or do we give our child the full hormone treatment" debate actually takes place. If a child has openly and continuously expressed cross-gender identification for several years prior to that point, there is very, very, very, very, very little chance they'll suddenly change their mind now (as in: I've never heard of a single case that was handled properly where the child identified as trans and then regretted their choice later on)

Third: Would you ever be willing to gamble with your child's life through the rule of four? Explanation: The rule of four is something pointed out by a trans-crisis hotline and that has since been backed up by a rather shocking study; it states that 3 in 4 transpeople will seriously consider commiting suicide, 2 in 4 will attempt suicide, and 1 in 4 will succeed in ending their own life. I've been researching gender and sexuality since I was 15, and I've spoken with hundreds of trans individuals, and my experiences, while obviously not empirical, also gives the rule of four serious credence in my mind. In the hundreds of trans people I've spoken with in the last 5 years, 12 said they never once considered suicide. Twelve. out of Hundreds. Interestingly, all twelve were people who had started transitioning (not chemically) before puberty, and started hormones at some point between 12 and 18.

as a final comment, for people who think that the gender identity of a young child can be influenced by how the child is raised, I'll ask that you look for and read As Nature Made Him: The Boy who was Raised as a Girl, by John Colapinto. It tells the story of David Reimer, who was, as an infant, the victim of a botched circumcision, which lead to his parents being coached into raising him as a girl. A Naturally born XY male child, raised as a girl.

if you want the tl;dr: it didn't work. It failed. Badly.

For transkids, NOT allowing them to be themselves is effectively the same as what David Reimer was forced to endure.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#64 Dec 20 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Tailmon wrote:
gbaji? Your completely clueless. Read better and if you need to actually research it! Better yet listen to the TG that posts here! I'm telling you again for the last time. I always knew something was wrong. I was trapped in the wrong body. It was there as far back as I can remember. TG's are wired wrong for their gender. Female brain in a male body. Its a proven fact. No matter how much one visits a psychiatrist or therapist to deal with it and be a man it never ever goes away. I can surely say that at age 3 I was a girl and knew it. I really wish that my parents had stopped trying to make me a boy and then a man and had let me change into what I needed to be when I was a young child.


Nothing I've said dismisses your own experiences Tailmon. I'm sure you knew all along. And it certainly appears that was the case in the specific situation in the OP. But I was responding to the broader hypothetical question asked "how young is too young?" (it's the title after all). And while some people will know right off the bat and never change their sense of self, that's not true of everyone. While some people *might* know at that age, and when they are older they will know that they knew at that age, we can't see into the future and say with any certainty that every child who feels some gender confusion at a very young age will look back at that as a confirmation of what they are when they are an adult as you do today.

A third party certainly can't do this. That's the point I'm trying to make. All the "But I knew all along!" doesn't change that some kids at the same age you today look back on as when you knew might have expressed similar thoughts and ideas to their parents but today are *not* transgender. We can't know at the time which is going to be which.

A side point to this, which I certainly acknowledge is unfair to people in your position revolves around this part of your own post:

Quote:
No matter how much one visits a psychiatrist or therapist to deal with it and be a man it never ever goes away.


This is a common statement made by every transgender I've ever met or spoke with btw. But that's part of my point. You are not going to be dissuaded from your natural gender identity. But that may not be true of everyone who exhibits transgender tendencies at an early age. In fact, I'd wager that it's not true for *most* kids at a very young age (like 3-5). So while you suffered some harm along the way because of pressure/therapy/etc to get you to conform, what about all the kids who might not be in the same boat as you? The same pressure and therapy which caused you pain might just be exactly what they need to get through whatever is going on with them.

Assuming we can't know until after the fact (usually a decade or more past that point) for sure whether someone is truly transgender or is just going through a phase or experiencing gender confusion (for any of a host of reasons), isn't it safer and better for most kids for us to assume it is a phase, and that they aren't actually transgender, than the other way around?

As I've said before, regardless of how you or I or anyone else might like the world to be the reality is that transgenders will suffer difficulty in our society as a result of their gender identity. Ask yourself this question (I'm sure you have many times): If you had the choice to change the course of time and magically make it so that you'd never been transgender, would you prefer that course? Or, if it's too hard to imagine it in yourself, imagine it in another. If you had the ability to wish an infant to grow up transgender or not, which would you choose for that child?


It's a hard fact to face, but given the realities of the world we live in, I'd assume most if not all people would choose to *not* make that child transgender if they had that power, right? They'd want a child who would fit in and be "normal". The point I'm trying to make here is that if there's even a tiny chance that a child can live that normal life and isn't really transgender at all, but has some other issues going on, shouldn't we err on the side of that possibility? Shouldn't we examine every other possibility before making the transgender diagnosis and moving to a therapy regime designed to get the child to accept that reality?


I think we should. Feel free to hate my **** for being non-politically correct on this, but I honestly think we should.

Edited, Dec 20th 2011 7:45pm by gbaji
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#65 Dec 20 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I intentionally didn't do more than skim your posts before I replied initially, gbaji, because I knew how I would want to react, and didn't want to do that.

So instead, I'll tell you how you sound right now.

You know those people who talk about being able to "Pray the **** away"? I don't know, or care, if you are one, but that is exactly what you sound like.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#66 Dec 20 2011 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem is that you are still assuming someone can be forced into a transgender identity, and you have NO reason to think that.

Furthermore, your solution to the situation is to stigmatize the child. Instead of raising them an environment that tells them implicitly that having any gender identity they are comfortable with is acceptable, you place them in one that is (in virtue of being heteronormative) completely hostile and incompatible with their own identity.

The fact that you consider avoiding this therapy altogether because some kids might not be helped by it wise just shows how little you value the psychological health of a transgender child who is being forced to deal with this. Your completely baseless fear of a psychologist "forcing" a child into an alternate gender role has led to you rejecting the legitimacy of the therapy across the board.

That's absurd.
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#67 Dec 21 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Ask yourself this question (I'm sure you have many times): If you had the choice to change the course of time and magically make it so that you'd never been transgender, would you prefer that course? Or, if it's too hard to imagine it in yourself, imagine it in another. If you had the ability to wish an infant to grow up transgender or not, which would you choose for that child?


I think we should. Feel free to hate my **** for being non-politically correct on this, but I honestly think we should



Gbaji, If I could magically make myself male again. I'd pass with no regrets. Now If I could magically make the Female wiring problems go away? Hum.....No. I would rather have magically made me a female. I'd have been much happier as one and things that I've been through would have never happened. If I went back to being Male and wired as I am? I'd have either killed myself or maybe one of my former bosses. You have this inner problem with depression and even rage because your not right.

I'd rather have people ask even if its non politically correct rather than endure Ignorant hateful people that have no idea what I've had to go through.
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#68 Dec 21 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
While I don't agree with him that much on the issue, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that gbaji is actually much more open minded on the issue than a typical conservative. You ladies should really cut him some slack.
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#69 Dec 21 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I haven't read all of this because quite frankly, I don't give a **** That being said though, from what I've read of gbaji's posts and the replies he's received (and yes, I realize by not reading everything he's said, I may have missed the whopper in it), it seems to me that you guys are doing your typical **** the majority, cater to the minority crap.

I won't be reading your replies in depth enough to be corrected if I'm wrong, because you guys(Tailmon and Iddigory-I can't take Jinte seriously in the first place) are as equally biased when you discuss something as gbaji is, which makes reading your dribble pointless, hence why I haven't read the thread in depth.

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#70 Dec 21 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I haven't read all of this because quite frankly, I don't give a sh*t. That being said though, from what I've read of gbaji's posts and the replies he's received (and yes, I realize by not reading everything he's said, I may have missed the whopper in it), it seems to me that you guys are doing your typical **** the majority, cater to the minority crap.

I won't be reading your replies in depth enough to be corrected if I'm wrong, because you guys(Tailmon and Iddigory-I can't take Jinte seriously in the first place) are as equally biased when you discuss something as gbaji is, which makes reading your dribble pointless, hence why I haven't read the thread in depth.



And this reply is irrelevant, because we are specifically talking about therapies that would only be used by the "minority" in the first place. The true minority, in this specific case, are the non-trans children who go through the clinic.
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#71 Dec 21 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
I haven't read all of this because quite frankly, I don't give a sh*t. That being said though, from what I've read of gbaji's posts and the replies he's received (and yes, I realize by not reading everything he's said, I may have missed the whopper in it), it seems to me that you guys are doing your typical **** the majority, cater to the minority crap.

I won't be reading your replies in depth enough to be corrected if I'm wrong, because you guys(Tailmon and Iddigory-I can't take Jinte seriously in the first place) are as equally biased when you discuss something as gbaji is, which makes reading your dribble pointless, hence why I haven't read the thread in depth.



And this reply is irrelevant, because we are specifically talking about therapies that would only be used by the "minority" in the first place. The true minority, in this specific case, are the non-trans children who go through the clinic.

Could you repeat that? I couldn't read it through your bias.
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#72idiggory, King of Bards, Posted: Dec 21 2011 at 8:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Troll away; I'm not going to feed you.
#73 Dec 21 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I haven't read all of this because quite frankly, I don't give a sh*t. That being said though, from what I've read of gbaji's posts and the replies he's received (and yes, I realize by not reading everything he's said, I may have missed the whopper in it), it seems to me that you guys are doing your typical **** the majority, cater to the minority crap.

I won't be reading your replies in depth enough to be corrected if I'm wrong, because you guys(Tailmon and Iddigory-I can't take Jinte seriously in the first place) are as equally biased when you discuss something as gbaji is, which makes reading your dribble pointless, hence why I haven't read the thread in depth.

You get me, Ugly. <3
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#74 Dec 21 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Troll away; I'm not going to feed you.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that you are often as biased in your views as gbaji is, so there may be more viable options, likely somewhere in the middle, where you often don't seem capable of seeing.


edit: sentences are not my friend

Edited, Dec 21st 2011 11:34am by Uglysasquatch
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#75 Dec 21 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji is arguing that the therapy is dangerous, because non-trans children might end up undergoing it and be subsequently damaged. But we have no good reason to assume either of these case will be true in any significant way.

Yet he's comfortable using those baseless assumptions to completely reject the entire therapy, which consists of meetings with a psychologist and optional hormone treatments, and incriminate the parents for attempting to help their child.

It's nothing but his own bigotry. He paints the parents as being idiots who pressured their son into become a daughter because he went through a dress-wearing phase. It's fundamentally unfair, ignorant, and completely unsupported by the information we have access to.
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#76 Dec 21 2011 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yet he's comfortable using those baseless assumptions to completely reject the entire therapy, which consists of meetings with a psychologist and optional hormone treatments, and incriminate the parents for attempting to help their child.
There's the whopper I missed. I didn't realize he was throwing it completely out the window and thought he was arguing more of a simply "use caution".

Quote:
Gbaji is arguing that the therapy is dangerous, because non-trans children might end up undergoing it and be subsequently damaged
I don't think that's a baseless assumption though. Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.
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#77 Dec 21 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yet he's comfortable using those baseless assumptions to completely reject the entire therapy, which consists of meetings with a psychologist and optional hormone treatments, and incriminate the parents for attempting to help their child.
There's the whopper I missed. I didn't realize he was throwing it completely out the window and thought he was arguing more of a simply "use caution".

Quote:
Gbaji is arguing that the therapy is dangerous, because non-trans children might end up undergoing it and be subsequently damaged
I don't think that's a baseless assumption though. Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.


By all means, caution should be used. That's true of all medical practices.

But I don't see any reason to assume that a counselor at such a clinic would try to pressure a child into adopting an alternate gender role.

He isn't urging caution because he's afraid a child can't know what they want. He's urging caution because he's afraid of **** indoctrination.

All gbaji is doing is further stigmatizing trans identity.
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#78 Dec 21 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Gbaji is arguing that the therapy is dangerous, because non-trans children might end up undergoing it and be subsequently damaged
I don't think that's a baseless assumption though. Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.

It's a fairly common assumption by people who aren't well informed on how trans therapy works that overprotective/paranoid parents will force a non-trans child into trans therapy and scar them for life. It isn't baseless, no, it does happen, as in the book I mentioned, but it happens so rarely now that it is almost a non-issue, due to the way the doctors handle it, and the actual treatment itself.

It's not something that just any doctor can diagnose. It's not something you go to your general practitioner for. If a GP were to try to diagnose it without a proper understanding of how the therapy itself works, they would be a fool and probably liable for malpractice, thus the way it's typically handled is by finding and referring the parents to a specialist. And I don't just mean "a child psychologist", I mean a psychologist who specializes in, or at the very least has done a significant amount of research on, the study of gender.

It's also important to note that the way the treatment is handled, there is absolutely nothing permanent done until the child is in their teens, by which point most people are comfortable enough with it to think the child should be allowed to choose. Even hormone blockers, which stop the onset of puberty, are not permanent. If a child were to stop taking them, even after several years, their body would readjust and begin normal puberty once the drugs worked their way out of the child's system. The only permanent changes occur after the child begins full hormone replacement therapy, ie; a male child receiving estrogen, or a female child receiving testosterone, and that doesn't typically start until, at the very youngest, 11~12 years of age, unless the doctor is clinically insane. It's far more common for the child to receive only hormone blockers until around 15~16, and simply live as the opposite sex, and THEN start full HRT if they're still certain it's what they want after several years (which is nearly always the case, and on the very rare occasion it isn't, the child simply ceases treatment and returns to living as their birth sex)

Basically, gbaji is expressing a fairly common, overly used, played out concern that is made worse by idiots like dr. phil spouting it and thinking they have some idea as to what they're talking about. It's a very assbackwards misunderstanding of how the treatment works, and what the repercussions are for a child who is trans not receiving it, vs a child who is not trans receiving it.

Here's a brief summary of what actually happens in transkid therapy:

- Child between age 3 and 10 expresses desire to be the opposite ****

- Worried parents ask the GP/Pediatrician, who refers them to a gender specialist

- Gender Specialist speaks with the child and determines whether or not the child is genuinely trans or just going through a phase; and yes, they do find kids who are just going through a phase, and those kids will not receive treatment

- If the child is genuinely trans, the doctor will help the parents come up with a way to allow the child to express themself properly. Typically, this is starts by allowing the child to live as the opposite **** while at home.

- Depending on the child's reaction to this, and their life circumstances (area they live in, age and school, other family members reactions), it will further develop, eventually reaching the point of living as the opposite **** full time

- Until the child is within a year of puberty's onset, this treatment is purely social. Also note that up to this point, the treatment allows the child to live as the opposite sex. It does not force them to. This lets the child develop their own unique level of gender expression, as obviously not all children will be complete girly girls or total borish boys. Many express some degree of interlap. Regardless of the interlap, though, even if the child is, for example, an incredibly masculine tomboy, the child still identifies as a member of the opposite sex. THAT is the key to the treatment. If the child does not have this, they probably aren't trans, and if this feeling weakens to the point of disappearing, the treatment will likely stop.

- At or near the onset of puberty, at the discretion of the parents and the doctor working the case, the child will start hormone blocking medication. This medication works by preventing the large surge of estrogen or testosterone that signals the start of puberty from taking effect. This will prevent the changes in body hair, significant alterations in bone structure, changes in voice pattern, etc. Essentially, these blockers prevent primary and secondary sexual characteristics from developing. In a child who has already begun puberty before they start taking them, they will prevent any further development of the characteristics, but they cannot reverse what has already happened.

- If the child has identified as the opposite **** for a long period of time, the parents and doctor may decide to begin the child on full hormone replacement early, by which I mean the child will have the pubertal changes of the opposite **** around the same time as their peers, rather than remaining primarily androgynous through their tweens and early teens. This usually only happens for children who have been undergoing trans therapy since they were 3~6 years old.

- If the child did not begin trans therapy until they were older, between 7~10, it is more likely they will simply stay on blockers until they are in their mid-late teens. Depending on the family and the doctor, they will start fully HRT around the time they start high school, so as to not fall significantly behind their peers. Some people will choose to wait until the child is 18, but that happens less and less frequently these days.

- At the point the child begins full HRT, if they are not already living full time as the opposite sex, it's normal for them to start, since it would be difficult to continue living as their birth **** while undergoing the pubertal changes of the opposite sex.

- Absolutely no reconstructive surgeries are done at any point throughout this process. Almost universally, those don't occur until after the child has turned 18, though there are a few notable exceptions, such as the case of Kim Petras.

Essentially, no matter how early the child starts the therapy, they have until they are 11 or 12 before anything permanent can even be done. They are never forced to become the opposite sex, they are allowed to act as accurately as they feel. It's common for them to pull a 180 initially, going hard core into being a girl or a boy, just because they haven't been allowed to prior to that point, but once they've been at it a while, they will stabilize and develop into what feels right for them. Usually, they continue the significant change in behavior to some degree, but there are exceptions.

I'm not saying caution shouldn't be used, but completely dismissing the entire treatment due to the effects it may have on less than 1% of its typical recipients is just silly. The effects of not giving a transkid proper treatment are far, far more devastating and common than the incredibly rare cases of ciskids who undergo this treatment. This is because, as I said, there is a trained professional present the entire way through, and if the kid is obviously not trans, they won't force them to continue the treatment.
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Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#79 Dec 21 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for that Jinte. I knew some about the therapy, but I didn't know a substantial amount of that information.
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#80 Dec 21 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.

This was pretty much my exact conclusion when I posted the thread.
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#81 Dec 21 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.

This was pretty much my exact conclusion when I posted the thread.

Honestly, the fact that people know that religious activist groups will throw **** and unleash ragestorms the likes of which we've never seen if they ever even get an inkling that this might be approaching the area of "hot diagnosis" will probably prevent it from ever reaching that status. Just look at what happened when Chaz Bono starred on a prime time reality competition. People were screaming **** murder and demanding viewers boycott the show. Just because he's trans. Can you imagine the reaction if those people caught wind of something like "a growing number of parents are allowing their children to undergo transgender therapy"?
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#82 Dec 21 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Lady Jinte wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.

This was pretty much my exact conclusion when I posted the thread.

Honestly, the fact that people know that religious activist groups will throw sh*tfits and unleash ragestorms the likes of which we've never seen if they ever even get an inkling that this might be approaching the area of "hot diagnosis" will probably prevent it from ever reaching that status. Just look at what happened when Chaz Bono starred on a prime time reality competition. People were screaming **** murder and demanding viewers boycott the show. Just because he's trans. Can you imagine the reaction if those people caught wind of something like "a growing number of parents are allowing their children to undergo transgender therapy"?


And on the other side of the spectrum, look at the momentum the anti-vaccination movement garnered in the last 10 years. I think the reality of the falsehoods that popularized the movement have started to set in and people are realizing how stupid it was, but that doesn't negate the potential harm done by parents who may have rejected the notion of vaccinating their children out of popular fear.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#83 Dec 21 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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I'm actually surprised that "proceed with caution" is getting such a negative reaction.
#84 Dec 21 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm actually surprised that "proceed with caution" is getting such a negative reaction.


When proceed with caution actually means just that, it wouldn't. But in gbaji world, it means "You are a terrible parent and should be ashamed that you are forcing this on your child."

And why do I think that?
gbaji wrote:
Whether it's fair to transgenders or not, the societal norms are norms for a reason. It's what most people conform to and are comfortable with. It seems counter productive to make everyone uncomfortable so that a small percentage can feel less so.

gbaji wrote:
moi wrote:
2. He assumes that gender identity is the same as preference for "masculine" or "feminine" practices. Gender identity is WAY deeper than that. Anyone who assumes that their little boy is a little girl because he likes putting on dresses or playing with barbies is a frickin' moron.
So you agree with me that the parents were frickin' morons? You're kinda making my point for me here.

Another stupid thing he wrote which he'll never let go of, since he rejects expert opinions if they don't conform to his world view wrote:
If a child sticks with a different gender role on their own despite pressures otherwise *then* you can go down the transgender therapy route. But there's no way in **** anyone's honestly making that determination at age 3. It would be questionable to make that determination at age 10 IMO.

One of my personal favorites:
Quote:
Pressures to conform to gender roles are all around us all the time. And while we may rail against such pressure, the reality is that most people conform and most people are happier because of it.


For gbaji, this was never about forcing people into different gender roles. It was abhorrence of the fact that we were letting them challenge those systems. It was unacceptable to allow a trans child to be a trans child until pressures on them to conform had reached a critical impasse. By then the damage is done, but who cares because only the gross transvestites would suffer.

I would urge caution for parents to not pressure their child one way or the other. Gbaji wants to caution parents from allowing a child to explore transgenderism by pressuring them to conform to a heteronormative system. That's a WORLD of difference.
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#85 Dec 21 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ugly wrote:
I don't think that's a baseless assumption though. Given how people like to lock onto some things, it's not without of reach to see this as becoming the latest "hot diagnosis" and seeing children who never should have been put through the treatment, put through it. I'm not against it, I just urge caution.
the treatments are basically all thorough enough with their years of preplanning and therapy prior to radical medical procedures. There is limited risk of it becoming a fad diagnosis, as there are other treatments much easier to sell, (with higher margins to boot). If it were cheap with limited paperwork, I could see the potential for seller-abuse risk, but odds are that would imply a reversible treatment.
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#86 Dec 21 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Disclaimer: Haven't followed this thread. Just skimmed a few of gbaji's posts and noticed this blurb:

gbaji wrote:
Sure. My point, which seems to have sailed over some people's head is that we need to be incredibly careful when making decisions about gender identity at a young age and doubly so if we're encouraging (intentionally or not) gender identity which is outside the societal norms. As I stated earlier, I don't make those norms, but they exist. Anyone who acts outside those norms *will* suffer negative consequences. Not because I'm a meanie, or I hate them or anything. Don't shoot the **** messenger. I'm simply pointing out that those norms exist for a reason, and that those outside them will find their lives more difficult purely as a result.


Given that default negative involved with any form of transgender alignment, if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible.


This is fundamentally wrong.
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#87 Dec 21 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
but odds are that would imply a reversible treatment.


Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but the treatment being discussed (in the article) is exactly that... reversible. Actually, the treatment doesn't change the person at all; it merely prevents the onset of puberty so that the child may explore their situation without the pressure of physiological transformations that might make more permanent changes later on more difficult
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#88 Dec 21 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
but odds are that would imply a reversible treatment.


Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but the treatment being discussed (in the article) is exactly that... reversible. Actually, the treatment doesn't change the person at all; it merely prevents the onset of puberty so that the child may explore their situation without the pressure of physiological transformations that might make more permanent changes later on more difficult


I'm talking about the full transition, which is not an easily reversible decision. Over prescribing H-blockers doesn't cause permanent harm, leveraging that into further treatment can, but that's what the years of therapy prior to treatment is for.

Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious, he's just uninformed of the checks and balances already inherent in the system.
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#89 Dec 21 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious, he's just uninformed of the checks and balances already inherent in the system.
You do know why, you're just being more polite than I was.
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#90 Dec 21 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious


Because of statements like this:

Quote:
if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible.


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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#91 Dec 21 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious, he's just uninformed of the checks and balances already inherent in the system.
You do know why, you're just being more polite than I was.


True, but not for the reason of politeness.
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#92 Dec 21 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious


Because of statements like this:

Quote:
if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible.




Still not malice. It's a logic error.
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#93 Dec 21 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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#94 Dec 21 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Given that somewhere near 99.9% of all people end up with a heteronomative identity, I'd say that the odds of a 3 year old boy, even one who likes to wear dresses at that age, ending up heteronormative are incredibly high. They are high unless you send him to such a clinic. That's not to say that the parents didn't get incredibly lucky and happen to completely misdiagnose their child's dress wearing in a way which matched a reality they couldn't possibly know about their child at that age and said child really was transgender and the clinic helped save said child from a life of feeling like he/she is in the wrong body.

But the odds are that they just used the clinic to turn their otherwise normal child into a transexual with all the attendant social negatives that will cause over his/her lifetime. Because as you say, gender identity is largely learned behavior. Age three is certainly young enough to teach a child to adopt any gender identity you want to teach them. And I share a healthy skepticism about a clinic dedicated to teaching people to accept different gender roles being very likely to conclude that any child brought to them isn't a transexual.


This is equivalent to trumpeting a "gay agenda" scenario, where we are out to turn all those innocent heterosexual children into raging flamers.

He's actually claiming that this clinic is turning a huge sum of male-born males into male-born females purely for the sake of possibly helping a few trans kids.

That's not a logic error. That's spitting in the face of logic and trumpeting the same bigoted **** he always does. And he is simultaneously stygmatizing trans peoples for violating social norms.

It's no more malicious than any other ignorant anti-gay crap-spewer. But it's not any better either.
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#95 Dec 21 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
The road to **** is paved with good intentions.

I don't have a problem with his stated intentions.

It's the method of execution; which coincidentlly, is a better place to start looking for the highway to hell.

Edited, Dec 21st 2011 3:48pm by Timelordwho
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#96 Dec 21 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible.


I completely missed this. I have no words to use in response to something of this level of ignorance.

Timelordwho wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Sidenote: I'm not quite sure why so many people are under the impression that Gbaji is being malicious


Because of statements like this:

Quote:
if our objective is to ensure our children suffer the least harm, it makes sense to encourage them to conform with those societal norms as much as possible.




Still not malice. It's a logic error.


if gbaji were to admit he doesn't know anything about transgender issues, and is absolutely incorrect on all the assertions he's made about therapy for transchildren, people would probably not be giving him such a hard time. I can't say anything with 100% certainty, but I know I'd probably ease up a bit.

You have to remember in the case of people like tailmon and myself, this is not the first time, or honestly even the fiftieth time we've had this conversation. I know I'm well into the hundreds in terms of how many times I've heard a different person say the same things and make the same assumptions as gbaji, and others in this thread. It's hard for me to be patient with people in topics like this any more
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#97 Dec 21 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can count on no fingers the number of times Gbaji has admitted to knowing nothing about a subject he had approaching zero knowledge on.
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Timelordwho wrote:
I can count on no fingers the number of times Gbaji has admitted to knowing nothing about a subject he had approaching zero knowledge on.

my point exactly.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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It's hard for me to be patient with people in topics like this any more
Oh, like me and people trying to tax myself and my company more. Totally understand where you're coming from.
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#100 Dec 21 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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I still don't believe a three year old has enough understanding of the differences between boys and girls to be reliable on whether or not they're, as the phrasing has been, in the wrong bodies. I'm not saying kids aren't smart, as I find myself constantly being manipulated by one at every turn, but that kind of mindset has to require some experience first. Maybe after first grade, when they've had time to figure out a little of themselves and have had time to mingle with both sexes and they still feel the same way then they can start the therapy and such.

I'm also a fairly suspicious individual, so I have no problem considering that when a three year old says they're a certain way that there could be parental manipulation involved.
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#101 Dec 21 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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I still don't believe a three year old has enough understanding of the differences between boys and girls to be reliable on whether or not they're, as the phrasing has been, in the wrong bodies. I'm not saying kids aren't smart, as I find myself constantly being manipulated by one at every turn, but that kind of mindset has to require some experience first. Maybe after first grade, when they've had time to figure out a little of themselves and have had time to mingle with both sexes and they still feel the same way then they can start the therapy and such.

I'm also a fairly suspicious individual, so I have no problem considering that when a three year old says they're a certain way that there could be parental manipulation involved.

it's never as cut and dry as "I was born in the wrong body, I should be x, not y" when the kid is 3. However, the stories of 3-4 year old transgirls trying to cut off their **** with a pair of fingernail clippers because it shouldn't be there do make a rather compelling case.
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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