Belkira the Tulip wrote:
If by "different," then you mean "not worth as much to do the same bob damn exact job as a person with a *****," then you'd be correct.
Unfortunately, that's not what different means.
Damn activists.
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If by "different," then you mean "not worth as much to do the same bob damn exact job as a person with a *****," then you'd be correct.
Unfortunately, that's not what different means.
Damn activists.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge. I'm not Archie Bunker over here.
No, not at all. You're just saying that womens are spending too much time at the work place and not enough time at home with a baby on their hip, teaching our youths to be fine, upstanding citizens.
I totally understand that you're not acting like a caveman. No really.
Edit: Your =/= Our.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 12:47pm by Belkira
Daboder da Basher wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
If by "different," then you mean "not worth as much to do the same bob damn exact job as a person with a *****," then you'd be correct.
Unfortunately, that's not what different means.
Damn activists.
I have no idea how that response fits in with my post.
Kaain the Irrelevant wrote:
Lady Annabella wrote:
My theory is that Kaain got a free drink from someone he was told was a woman who was actually really a man because he was at a gay bar and sits there, constantly telling us that the existance of a giant erect **** in his mouth is no proof that he is actually gay. Or bi-curious.
In before Nixnot.
In before Nixnot.
What did they do to you while you were gone?
Sorry. I couldn't resist. Carry on.
I will say that I think this is one of those uphill battles where dudes continue to argue and argue that women are treated better than men with all the anecdotes but if you bring up the major inequities in wages with guys, they will have random arguments, including picking apart metananalyses of data, to argue that unequal pay is not evidence of discrimination against women.
Somehow, it's easier to talk about erect ***** than a bunch of guys making unfounded and misogynistic arguments about how they are being oppressed in the world by women and our horrible desires to get equal pay.
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
wow you all post fast.
Alright, first off I feel for the majority of the guys who are trying to have this conversation since I know having a conversation about women's rights and wages is like playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun. No matter what you say, you're still screwed.
I think the only real general consensus that could be reached is that the world is not fair. These conversations always end up getting me pissed at both sides for not being able to communicate in an efficient way what they are trying to say.
General points made thus far about sex equality issues-
1) Women need time to recover from having a child
2) Men should be entitled to maternity leave as well to actually help raise the child
3) Women get extra positive bias when it comes to children and legal issues dealing with children.
4) Men get extra positive biases when dealing with pay rates and job positions.
In short? Both genders are getting the short end of the stick. However, the overarching reason you see more sway towards women's rights as opposed to men's rights is that historically we've gotten a lot more oppression of rights than you guys have. Also, money is a powerful force in this world, and it really caps the amount of things you can achieve as an individual.
So i think its justified, but dialogues about it seem to be nearly impossible to do due to the fact that its such a charged issue.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 1:59pm by Blacktuesday
Alright, first off I feel for the majority of the guys who are trying to have this conversation since I know having a conversation about women's rights and wages is like playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun. No matter what you say, you're still screwed.
I think the only real general consensus that could be reached is that the world is not fair. These conversations always end up getting me pissed at both sides for not being able to communicate in an efficient way what they are trying to say.
General points made thus far about sex equality issues-
1) Women need time to recover from having a child
2) Men should be entitled to maternity leave as well to actually help raise the child
3) Women get extra positive bias when it comes to children and legal issues dealing with children.
4) Men get extra positive biases when dealing with pay rates and job positions.
In short? Both genders are getting the short end of the stick. However, the overarching reason you see more sway towards women's rights as opposed to men's rights is that historically we've gotten a lot more oppression of rights than you guys have. Also, money is a powerful force in this world, and it really caps the amount of things you can achieve as an individual.
So i think its justified, but dialogues about it seem to be nearly impossible to do due to the fact that its such a charged issue.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 1:59pm by Blacktuesday
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge. I'm not Archie Bunker over here.
No, not at all. You're just saying that womens are spending too much time at the work place and not enough time at home with a baby on their hip.
I totally understand that you're not acting like a caveman. No really.
Damn it. I'm done trying to suck up.
Who the hell is supposed to be taking care of our children?
Yes. Men can stay home just as easily as a woman can. But this doesn't happen either.
Sexism aside: women are anatomically and psychologically better equipped at raising children. That's not sexism, its a fact of nature.
Why shouldn't this be so?
Do you see my point here? Because I think you're just reading "Wimmin is for the babiez" and jumping my case.
Lady Annabella wrote:
Sorry. I couldn't resist. Carry on.
I will say that I think this is one of those uphill battles where dudes continue to argue and argue that women are treated better than men with all the anecdotes but if you bring up the major inequities in wages with guys, they will have random arguments, including picking apart metananalyses of data, to argue that unequal pay is not evidence of discrimination against women.
Somehow, it's easier to talk about erect ***** than a bunch of guys making unfounded and misogynistic arguments about how they are being oppressed in the world by women and our horrible desires to get equal pay.
I will say that I think this is one of those uphill battles where dudes continue to argue and argue that women are treated better than men with all the anecdotes but if you bring up the major inequities in wages with guys, they will have random arguments, including picking apart metananalyses of data, to argue that unequal pay is not evidence of discrimination against women.
Somehow, it's easier to talk about erect ***** than a bunch of guys making unfounded and misogynistic arguments about how they are being oppressed in the world by women and our horrible desires to get equal pay.
You get that I'm on your side this time though, right?
You better.
Now get those pants off. It's baby makin' time you slightly less valuable member of society than I.
Because you sound like one.
It's ok Belk, I understand. My girlfriend is the same way. Once she believes that she is right about something, she rejects all other possibilities, all other opinions, and believes that everyone who doesn't agree with her 100% of the way is wrong. And just like I tell her when I'm sick of trying to get her to see things from a perspective other than her own, "You're right, I'm wrong".
It's ok Belk, I understand. My girlfriend is the same way. Once she believes that she is right about something, she rejects all other possibilities, all other opinions, and believes that everyone who doesn't agree with her 100% of the way is wrong. And just like I tell her when I'm sick of trying to get her to see things from a perspective other than her own, "You're right, I'm wrong".
I do Kaain, I just noticed your free drink comment and thought, Of course a pretty boy like Kaain would get a free drink. Maybe the problem with Daboder is that he's just not pretty enough.
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Damn it. I'm done trying to suck up.
You were sucking up...?
I'm thinking that you don't understand the concept of that. Besides, I'd much prefer you were open about what you think instead of trying to protect little ol' me. AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Who the hell is supposed to be taking care of our children?
Yes. Men can stay home just as easily as a woman can. But this doesn't happen either.
Sexism aside: women are anatomically and psychologically better equipped at raising children. That's not sexism, its a fact of nature.
Yes. Men can stay home just as easily as a woman can. But this doesn't happen either.
Sexism aside: women are anatomically and psychologically better equipped at raising children. That's not sexism, its a fact of nature.
Actually, I imagine it varies from person to person. Remember Andrea Yates? I would say that there's a woman who shouldn't be left alone with kids, what about you?
Or, if that name doesn't ring a bell, look at Britney Spears, for chrissakes. Yeah, there's a shining example of motherhood. But hey, she's got tits and a ******, so she should magically know how to take care of a kid, right??
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Why shouldn't this be so?
Do you see my point here? Because I think you're just reading "Wimmin is for the babiez" and jumping my case.
Do you see my point here? Because I think you're just reading "Wimmin is for the babiez" and jumping my case.
I'm "jumping on your case" because you're implying not only that I really only should be staying home raising my husbands offspring instead of working, but you're also implying that my husband wouldn't be as good a caregiver as I would.
Don't get me wrong, you're raising some good points about parents not being able to stay home with their kids. I agree 110%. That's the economy's fault, however. If anyone in my household was going to give up a job to stay at home, it'd be my husband because he makes so much less. In a lot of household's, it would be the other way around. Not because the mommy has it ingrained in her to be a mommy, but because women don't make as much as men on average!
StubsOnAsura the Wise wrote:
Did I miss the part where he flat out said "Tests show that black people are dumber than white people" or is that just an implication that's being read into this whole mess?
Assuming I'm not missing something, I'd tend to agree based strictly on what I know, and that is to say that the African population, in general, is less educated than some other parts of the world.
Yep, you missed it. He said they were less intelligent, not less educated. Go back and read it again. I don't know that I believe it, I would have to look at the actual data. Stupidity knows no boundaries, in my opinion, particularly not race.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Kaain the Irrelevant wrote:
Sooooo, basically, you agree with me.. but you're just bitter?
Not bitter. Just unwilling to entertain the possibility that women are justified in complaining about being percieved as "less" than their male counterparts.
Here's what annoys me about this whole female/male sexism argument. Women have an important role to play in society: child rearing. The more that women are out there striving to become a man's equal at work, the less their attention their children are receiving.
I can't say that I disagree with this entirely, and I work while my husband stays home and takes care of the house/kids. It annoys me when women play the "I have to give birth!" card but then balk when it's thrown back at them.
Most people work because they have to, not because they want to. If I could have stayed home with my kids thoughout their childhood you bet your *** I would have. Would that have made me unproductive or not reach my potential? Only if I let it. It just means I'd have to do something different than going to an office everyday just to make a buck.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 1:58pm by KassandrahKnight
Daboder da Basher wrote:
Because you sound like one.
It's ok Belk, I understand. My girlfriend is the same way. Once she believes that she is right about something, she rejects all other possibilities, all other opinions, and believes that everyone who doesn't agree with her 100% of the way is wrong. And just like I tell her when I'm sick of trying to get her to see things from a perspective other than her own, "You're right, I'm wrong".
It's ok Belk, I understand. My girlfriend is the same way. Once she believes that she is right about something, she rejects all other possibilities, all other opinions, and believes that everyone who doesn't agree with her 100% of the way is wrong. And just like I tell her when I'm sick of trying to get her to see things from a perspective other than her own, "You're right, I'm wrong".
That's cute, Daboder. "Gee, Belkira, you sound like the other women I know. Nag nag nag, you're always right."
The funny thing is, I agreed with most of your anecdotes! You obviously got the wrong end of the deal with the domestic abuse ****, and I think fathers should be equally considered when it comes to custody! But your selective reading skims over that. Noooo, you can't believe that I'd agree with you, can you!?
And you have not once managed to justify why a woman gets paid less for doing the same job. Instead, you point to a few little things here and there and say, "Oooh lookie there, a woman getting by on her feminine whiles! I'm outraged!!"
Lady Annabella wrote:
I do Kaain, I just noticed your free drink comment and thought, Of course a pretty boy like Kaain would get a free drink. Maybe the problem with Daboder is that he's just not pretty enough.
I may not be pretty, but I have gotten drinks in the past. Also, I think you are all missing my point on this. I'm not arguing the facts about the differences between men and women, and I'm not saying anything needs to be changed, and I'm not saying that unequal pay is right and just.
My post was to simply point out that women have their own benefits to being a woman that men don't have.
Lady Annabella wrote:
I do Kaain, I just noticed your free drink comment and thought, Of course a pretty boy like Kaain would get a free drink. Maybe the problem with Daboder is that he's just not pretty enough.
Amen.
However, my world wouldn't be as grand if everyone was pretty. Thank you, Daboder. Thank you for being less attractive than I.
In all seriousness though, you should have seen this chick. Dear God. And she sent me a Walk-Me-Down of all things. It's basically a regular size glass filled with 7 different liquors all the way to the top, with a drip of blue curacao thrown in for color.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And you have not once managed to justify why a woman gets paid less for doing the same job.
There's a reason for that. If that is true, then I don't believe it is just.
Daboder da Basher wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And you have not once managed to justify why a woman gets paid less for doing the same job.
There's a reason for that. If that is true, then I don't believe it is just.
KassandrahKnight wrote:
StubsOnAsura the Wise wrote:
Did I miss the part where he flat out said "Tests show that black people are dumber than white people" or is that just an implication that's being read into this whole mess?
Assuming I'm not missing something, I'd tend to agree based strictly on what I know, and that is to say that the African population, in general, is less educated than some other parts of the world.
Yep, you missed it. He said they were less intelligent, not less educated. Go back and read it again. I don't know that I believe it, I would have to look at the actual data. Stupidity knows no boundaries, in my opinion, particularly not race.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Kaain the Irrelevant wrote:
Sooooo, basically, you agree with me.. but you're just bitter?
Not bitter. Just unwilling to entertain the possibility that women are justified in complaining about being percieved as "less" than their male counterparts.
Here's what annoys me about this whole female/male sexism argument. Women have an important role to play in society: child rearing. The more that women are out there striving to become a man's equal at work, the less their attention their children are receiving.
I can't say that I disagree with this entirely, and I work while my husband stays home and takes care of the house/kids. It annoys me when women play the "I have to give birth!" card but then balk when it's thrown back at them.
Most people work because they have to, not because they want to. If I could have stayed home with my kids thoughout their childhood you bet your *** I would have. Would that have made me unproductive or not reach my potential? Only if I let it. It just means I'd have to do something different than going to an office everyday just to make a buck.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 1:58pm by KassandrahKnight
Why can't raising children be your job? Economical requirements aside (yes, most of the time both parents have to work), I don't think people view 'housewife' as an occupation anymore. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you're being "unproductive."
Raising new members of society to be clean, educated, polite...its a huge responsibility.
Belkira's negative reaction just goes to show that we as a society have turned from this view, and our children are growing up stupid and rude because of it.
You can call me "old-fashioned," sexist, whatever you like. I'm all for a woman making the same amount as a man. I'm just even more for a society that allows at least one parent the time/means to actually take an active part in raising their children, rather just paying for their **** and sending them off to school.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
That's a real man for you. Not embarrassed that a woman can make more than he can, but embraces it instead.
Why would a man be embarrassed by this? Every man I know would LOVE IT if his wife made tons of money. Money's money, doesn't matter who brings it home.
And Daboder is kinda right (but for the wrong reasons) on the child rearing issue, children are suffering from having both parents working (to what extent is debatable), but that's not a woman issue per-se. A man could stay home with the children, but women tend to be better parents, they have more empathy, better communication skills, and are better at multitasking (this has been proven through a variety of research projects, women have very different thought processes than men, but that's another topic).
Frankly women just care more, so yes, women working is not as good as staying home with the children when they are young. Especially when you consider that a woman needs recovery time after having a child, it usually just makes more sense for the woman to stay home and the man to work (believe me, I'd much rather it be the other way around).
This is not to say that women shouldn't go back to work. If a woman wants to go back to work and it's practical for her to do so, or makes more sense for the man to stay home, go for it. Usually though, it's the woman who WANTS to stay home with her children.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Why can't raising children be your job? Economical requirements aside (yes, most of the time both parents have to work), I don't think people view 'housewife' as an occupation anymore. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you're being "unproductive."
Raising new members of society to be clean, educated, polite...its a huge responsibility.
Belkira's negative reaction just goes to show that we as a society have turned from this view, and our children are growing up stupid and rude because of it.
You can call me "old-fashioned," sexist, whatever you like. I'm all for a woman making the same amount as a man. I'm just even more for a society that allows at least one parent the time/means to actually take an active part in raising their children, rather just paying for their sh*t and sending them off to school.
Raising new members of society to be clean, educated, polite...its a huge responsibility.
Belkira's negative reaction just goes to show that we as a society have turned from this view, and our children are growing up stupid and rude because of it.
You can call me "old-fashioned," sexist, whatever you like. I'm all for a woman making the same amount as a man. I'm just even more for a society that allows at least one parent the time/means to actually take an active part in raising their children, rather just paying for their sh*t and sending them off to school.
And what if a woman doesn't want to be a babysitter 24/7? What then? Too ******* bad, don't have kids then?
My "negative reaction" is you telling me that, because of my anatomy, I'm better suited to sit at home all day with the babies. You don't even know me, but you're assuming that is where my best talents lie, simply because I'm a woman.
Yes, I will call you a sexist, because that's the very definition of sexism.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm sure it IS true, I wouldn't doubt it. I just don't take everything posted on a message forum to be 100% factual.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
KassandrahKnight wrote:
StubsOnAsura the Wise wrote:
Did I miss the part where he flat out said "Tests show that black people are dumber than white people" or is that just an implication that's being read into this whole mess?
Assuming I'm not missing something, I'd tend to agree based strictly on what I know, and that is to say that the African population, in general, is less educated than some other parts of the world.
Yep, you missed it. He said they were less intelligent, not less educated. Go back and read it again. I don't know that I believe it, I would have to look at the actual data. Stupidity knows no boundaries, in my opinion, particularly not race.
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Kaain the Irrelevant wrote:
Sooooo, basically, you agree with me.. but you're just bitter?
Not bitter. Just unwilling to entertain the possibility that women are justified in complaining about being percieved as "less" than their male counterparts.
Here's what annoys me about this whole female/male sexism argument. Women have an important role to play in society: child rearing. The more that women are out there striving to become a man's equal at work, the less their attention their children are receiving.
I can't say that I disagree with this entirely, and I work while my husband stays home and takes care of the house/kids. It annoys me when women play the "I have to give birth!" card but then balk when it's thrown back at them.
Most people work because they have to, not because they want to. If I could have stayed home with my kids thoughout their childhood you bet your *** I would have. Would that have made me unproductive or not reach my potential? Only if I let it. It just means I'd have to do something different than going to an office everyday just to make a buck.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 1:58pm by KassandrahKnight
Why can't raising children be your job? Economical requirements aside (yes, most of the time both parents have to work), I don't think people view 'housewife' as an occupation anymore. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you're being "unproductive."
Raising new members of society to be clean, educated, polite...its a huge responsibility.
I agree, and I'm not saying it wouldn't be my job. But that doesn't mean that's all I am capable of doing, any more than I think that all men are capable of doing is dragging home the meat (along with grunting and scratching, of course.)
I'm saying that not everyone feels that the entire focus of their life should be their children. It's healthy to do other things. I'm not saying that raising children isn't being productive, I'm saying that some people need more. Otherwise, there would be no artists.
Even in cultures where the man/woman role has not evolved, women contribute to society in ways other than just raising the kids, or they would have no baskets, clothing etc. I mean seriously, can you imaging men sewing? :D
Yodabunny wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
That's a real man for you. Not embarrassed that a woman can make more than he can, but embraces it instead.
Why would a man be embarrassed by this? Every man I know would LOVE IT if his wife made tons of money. Money's money, doesn't matter who brings it home.
And Daboder is kinda right (but for the wrong reasons) on the child rearing issue, children are suffering from having both parents working (to what extent is debatable), but that's not a woman issue per-se. A man could stay home with the children, but women tend to be better parents, they have more empathy, better communication skills, and are better at multitasking (this has been proven through a variety of research projects, women have very different thought processes than men, but that's another topic).
Frankly women just care more, so yes, women working is not as good as staying home with the children when they are young. Especially when you consider that a woman needs recovery time after having a child, it usually just makes more sense for the woman to stay home and the man to work (believe me, I'd much rather it be the other way around).
This is not to say that women shouldn't go back to work. If a woman wants to go back to work and it's practical for her to do so, or makes more sense for the man to stay home, go for it. Usually though, it's the woman who WANTS to stay home with her children.
There is so much in there that belks gonna rip apart. Just a warning.
You should have just said, "And Daboder is kinda right (but for the wrong reasons) on the child rearing issue, children are suffering from having both parents working (to what extent is debatable), but that's not a woman issue per-se." and you would have been fine.
This is why i hate debating this topic. Its always hurt feelings on both sides. Then you don't get any real discussion done.
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 2:11pm by Blacktuesday
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Why can't raising children be your job?
Well maybe, you pain in the *** **********, I actually want the ability to choose. Maybe I don't want to be a stay at home mother. Fancy that. Maybe I wanna be an airline pilot and my husband wants to take care of babies. Now I don't have kids and I will still make less on average than a man and somehow that seems like a ****** deal to me based on your feelings about children.
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
Lady Annabella wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Why can't raising children be your job?
Well maybe, you pain in the *** @#%^er, I actually want the ability to choose. Maybe I don't want to be a stay at home mother. Fancy that. Maybe I wanna be an airline pilot and my husband wants to take care of babies. Now I don't have kids and I will still make less on average than a man and somehow that seems like a sh*tty deal to me based on your feelings about children.
Anna, read the rest of his thread, he actually did redeem himself.
TomatoAsh is doing the thing I used to do all the time:
Make some retarded statement that gets immediately attacked, then post-by-post tries to justify it and attempts to tweak it to where it's not so retarded anymore, but still pisses everyone off.
Kool-Aid!
Make some retarded statement that gets immediately attacked, then post-by-post tries to justify it and attempts to tweak it to where it's not so retarded anymore, but still pisses everyone off.
Kool-Aid!
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