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1 CHR = 1 magic accuracy = 1 skill?Follow

#1 Mar 29 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I am confused. For years I read these forums and I see time and time again: 2 CHR = 1 skill and 1 skill = 1 magic accuracy.

Then I read this:
Taken from: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Accuracy
Quote:
it also shows 1 skill = 1 magic accuracy and for stats such as INT = 1 magic accuracy until total int is >targetINT+10. Each additional point of INT after that gives 0.5 magic accuracy. It is unknown if any amount of stats after that limit can give 0.5 magic accuracy. It is assumed the same goes for MND vs TargetMND and CHR vs TargetCHR.


This test also says 1 skill = 1 magic accuracy nothing new here. But then goes on about 1INT = 1 magic accuracy until total int is >targetINT+10.
This test was done for INT but assumes that the same goes for CHR (read: brd's).

Lets assume we are against a target with high CHR (think HNM). So we are well below the CHR+10 mark. If this article is correct that means in this situation: 1 CHR = 1 skill right?
In other words this article values CHR more then we currently do, am I right?

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 6:30pm by Breaze
#2 Mar 29 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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You've been a way for a while.

There's never been any real tests on MACC for BRD, but there's no reason to assume our MACC works differently. Hints of this was out over a year ago, and became confirmed early last year (by that time people were already assuming it anyways).

The interesting thing is, for most RoZ HNM, the stat 'cap' for those mobs seem to be around 110, which is where the magical 'get your CHR to about 120' comes from. WoTG NM's appear to have higher stat caps...

Anyways, its somewhat old news now, and some of the things you'll run into stat differences between mobs and when to pick CHR over Skill/MACC. Unless you want to identify CHR values for every mob in the game, its still usually better to pick Skill/MACC - provided you can get enough to overcome any situation where your over the diminishing returns of CHR.

It also goes without saying that CHR does nothing for buffs, but I digress...

If your really well-geared on BRD, you'll find that this information doesn't really change a whole lot on gear options. But since there's endless combinations of gear, YMMV.
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#3 Mar 30 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If your really well-geared on BRD, you'll find that this information doesn't really change a whole lot on gear options.

Well that is the thing. There is a lot of proper brd gear that is very close stat wise. And you will use different gear choices if you follow 1 CHR = 1 magic accuracy = 1 skill principle then when you follow 2 CHR = 1 magic accuracy = 1 skill principle.

Example:
Marduk body +12CHR vs. Shadow coat +10MACC

Oracle feet +5 wind skill vs. Shadow clogs CHR +5, Magic Accuracy +2

Jester cape +10CHR vs. astute cape +5 singing skill

Balrahn's Ring +4MACC vs. Veela ring +6CHR

Some examples here are better then others but you get my point. It can get confusing very fast.

#4 Apr 01 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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That was kind of my point, by the time you get those pieces they are marginal upgrades. You don't have to aim for any specific piece. Not only that, but each piece has situational uses, so one might be better for HNM's and the other might be better for other stuff. Considering that you'll get more usefulness out of having all of your desired instruments and HQ Staves, it would be difficult to justify carrying around any extra gear to anyone other than the most hardcore BRDs out there.

I'm not disputing that any of the above gear can be better than the other (it works both ways btw), only that it's not really worthwhile to obtain both for their situational uses. Obviously you want to make smart decisions to pick the gear you want, but that will depend entirely on what your end-game focus is.
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#5 Apr 04 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Breaze wrote:
Lets assume we are against a target with high CHR (think HNM). So we are well below the CHR+10 mark. If this article is correct that means in this situation: 1 CHR = 1 skill right? In other words this article values CHR more then we currently do, am I right?


And the last time you met a BRD HNM was---?

You'll find that direct elemental resistance and innate song resistance matter more than relative stat levels in the HNM scene. No matter how good your debuffing setup is, you'll never land elegy on ouryu (ice threnody, however...). No matter how good your debuffing setup is, you'll have trouble landing elegy on ToAU kings without elemental seal.

WARNING: Asmoranomar's above analysis is essentially correct. Only keep reading if you'd like a more detailed conceptual comparison, and a bit more insight into why it may be worthwhile for you to pick Skill/Macc over CHR. My usual debuffing setup, for example, works with 89 CHR total (including merits).

---

So! Breaking down the logic of the initial analysis:

Quote:
Tests show show that 1 magic accuracy = 0.5% magic hit rate below 50% hit rate, 1.0% increase after 50% magic hit rate.

it also shows 1 skill = 1 magic accuracy and for stats such as INT = 1 magic accuracy until total int is >targetINT+10. Each additional point of INT after that gives 0.5 magic accuracy. It is unknown if any amount of stats after that limit can give 0.5 magic accuracy. It is assumed the same goes for MND vs TargetMND and CHR vs TargetCHR.


We're talking about two different things here: "Magic Accuracy" and "Magic Hit Rate."

The goal of the test that wiki references was trying to model the relative relationship between Skill, Magic Accuracy, and STAT as stats that contribute to a general "Magic Accuracy" number.

"Magic Hit Rate" -- again citing otherwiki for kicks -- is apparently determined by a check between the caster's Magic Accuracy stat and the target's Magic Evasion stat. Magic Evasion is extremely important in any discussion about M.Acc.

Important points about Magic Evasion: It can vary by target and by spell. Magic Evasion is one reason you will never land paralyze on a UFO in sea, even though it's weak to ice-based magic. UFOs are arbitrarily immune (and/or have extremely high magic evasion) to the specific spell. Wiki uses imp resistance to sleep but not to gravity as another example.

So. What does this mean for BRD? Assuming the model is anywhere near true in a conceptual sense:

1. CHR = 1 magic accuracy until total CHR is >targetCHR+10. Each additional point of CHR after that gives 0.5 magic accuracy.

2. 1 magic accuracy (or 1 skill) = 0.5% magic hit rate below 50% hit rate, 1.0% increase after 50% magic hit rate.

Again we're not talking the same stats. Let's assume we have an HNM target with high CHR and a naturally high ME stat on Elegy.

In this situation 1 CHR = 1 Macc the whole time, because we never hit the >targetCHR+10 stat. HOWEVER, that still only contributes 0.5% magic hit rate overall -- because our general hit rate is still below 50%. CHR and Macc end up equalized by the pressure of high magic evasion. I have no idea if Khimaira has high CHR for example, but that doesn't matter because his magic evasion on elegy is so high! Elemental Seal directly increases caster Magic Accuracy by some amount (no one knows how much) -- but it makes Elegy pretty much unresisted, which is why bards /BLM at Khimaira.

Now consider pretty much anything non-HNM in the game, which is a relatively low-magic evasion target. Elegy lands on everything not immune. That means that MAcc and Skill are generally +1% magic hit rate ... while CHR is at best 1 M.acc and at worst .5Macc if/when you go beyond the >targetCHR+10 stat. Here's the kicker. That mob CHR stat can be tricky, and with level correction involved the Magic Evasion can become even more complicated.

Overall mob magic evasion to elegy and lullaby will tend to look something like this, in an extremely simplified conceptual way:

NOTE: The dash represents a range of values, as in "between .5% and 1% hit rate." It is not a minus sign.

Quote:
High Evasion Targets (Immune): You're not landing it. Give up.

High Evasion Targets with High CHR (Not Immune): 1 Macc = .5% hit rate | CHR = 1 Macc (.5% hit rate)

*High Evasion Targets with Low CHR (Not Immune): 1 Macc = .5% hit rate | CHR = .5-1 Macc (.25-.5% hit rate)

Mid Evasion Targets with High CHR: 1 Macc = .5-1% hit rate | CHR = 1 Macc (.5-1% hit rate)

*Mid Evasion Targets with Low CHR: 1 Macc = .5-1% hit rate | CHR = .5-1 Macc (.25-5% or .5-1% hit rate)

Low Evasion Targets with High CHR: Macc = 1% hit rate | CHR = 1 Macc (1% hit rate)

Low Evasion Targets with Low CHR: Macc = 1% hit rate | CHR = .5-1 Macc ( .5-1% hit rate)


The starred values above are important. In cases where the mob CHR stat is low, player CHR might already hit the CHR > targetCHR+10 target. Any additional points of CHR in that situation are only worth half as much as one point of M.Acc/Skill.

The important thing to take away from the above table is that, other things being equal, CHR has a much more variable effect than either Skill/M.Acc. CHR is cheap and easy for bards to obtain because it shows signs of diminishing returns that Skill/MAcc don't.

My general conclusion, and what I do in practice, is to privilege Skill and Macc gear above CHR for debuffs (within reason) ... and Skill above everything for certain buffs (ex. Marches). CHR and M.Acc are important only for debuffing, while Skill levels are important for both buffing and debuffing. Skill's universal application to buffing and debuffing is what makes bard magic skill merits so attractive to mainjob/diehard endgame bards.

The overall usefulness of skill is also why RDM tend to prioritize maxing elemental and enfeebling magic skills. RDM's debuffs (i.e. Slow, Paralyze) fall prey to variable amounts of potency, whereas Bard's Carnage Elegy is a static 50% slow effect when it lands. Stacking stats therefore becomes more important for RDM to stack than BRD.

---

To add some more examples to this assessment, using the gear you mentioned:

EX: Marduk body +12CHR vs. Shadow coat +10MACC
Assessment: At best equal to 12Macc, at worst equal to 6Macc vs. a static 10Macc. This isn't a good example. People get marduk body for refresh and fastcast on one piece of gear. Marduk is better than ErrantBody/Osode, but not as consistent a debuffing piece as Shadow/Valk coats.

EX: Oracle feet +5 wind skill vs. Shadow clogs CHR +5, Magic Accuracy +2
Assessment: One is a static +5 Magic Accuracy, the other is at best 7MACC and at worst 4.5Macc. Oracle's feet are really for march tiers.

EX: Jester cape +10CHR vs. astute cape +5 singing skill
Assessment: One is at best 10Macc and at worst 5Macc, the other is a static 5Macc.

EX: Balrahn's Ring +4MACC vs. Veela ring +6CHR vs. Omega Ring +3 Macc +3 CHR vs. Nereid Ring +3 Skill
Assessment: Static +4 Macc vs. +3-6Macc vs. 4.5Macc-6Macc vs 3MAcc. Omega is for debuffs, Nereid Ring is for march tiers. Veela ring is at worst equal to a nereid ring without the benefit to marches, and at best equal to what an omega ring would do in the same best-case scenario.

--

Conclusion? MAcc pieces have more stable effects than CHR pieces. Really high-end bard equip is focused on M.Acc and skill.

Food for thought! No one knows how BRD's overall magic accuracy number and RDM's overall magic accuracy number compare. As far as Paralyze goes, for RDM that's based directly on Enfeebling Magic Skill + MND + M.Acc. RDM has an A+ in enfeebling magic, which caps at 276. With full merits, that number rises to a base of 292. A good endgame RDM can hit 320-340+ enfeebling skill.

Bard songs are based on the combination of two skills: Singing skill and Instrument skill. As C-rated skills, they cap at 225. 225+225=450, assuming no merits. You need full singing/wind skill merits and an additional +51 skill from gear to cap marches (barring tiers reachable with relic horn). A maxed march tier bard will hit 533 combined wind/singing skill.

It's entirely possible that Magic Accuracy and Magic Evasion work, conceptually, the same way for BRD and RDM. It's an entirely different thing to try to directly compare numbers and relative effect/efficiency between the two jobs. RDM has to worry about debuff potency (Slow) and BRD doesn't (Carnage Elegy). BRD has to worry about buff potency (March) and RDM doesn't (Haste).

--

Suggestion: Put on the gear you think of as your best "debuffing" set. Privilege Macc and Skill over CHR in every slot. See if you get resists in your regular events, and how many.

If you aren't getting resists, keep taking off CHR and putting on MP until you do. That's about what your everyday set should look like.

If you're getting resists with your best debuffing setup, odds are you need to acquire more skill/macc gear. Nereid Rings are cheap. Omega Ring is easily obtainable with Einherjar Ampoules. And Oracle's Pigaches are easy to get if you drop by someone's Dea run -- they're often floored now.

---

tl;dr version: M.Acc/Skill have more stable effects than CHR for BRD debuffs. Skill has the added benefit of being essential to capping songs and hitting higher march tiers.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 9:34pm by Ezzelin
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#6 Apr 05 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Well I suppose you could read that I said that way. Another way of reading what I said would be:

"By the time you get to the point where CHR vs MACC/Skill becomes a concern for certain slots, your probably already over your desired Magic Hit Rate for most mobs anyways and can safely pick the CHR option. Even if your over the targets CHR+10 value (known as dCHR btw), your only losing a minimal amount of magic accuracy on your 'over accurate' setup. The benefit would be gaining an even higher Magic Hit Rate when your under your dCHR value."

It really can be taken to read either way (and that's why I worded it the way I did). Combine that with the fact that BRD is usually accurate on normal mob debuffs anyways, and all of it really doesn't matter on the long road (Both types of BRDs would benefit from /BLM on really hard to stick mobs).

In the end, it just boils down to what type of BRD you are. Are you the kind who wants to full-time gear? Are you the kind who wants to play it safe and wear the kind of gear that always give the same results? Or are you the kind of player who's willing to use anything to get the slightest edge over the other player?
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BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
#7 Apr 07 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Asmoranomar wrote:
In the end, it just boils down to what type of BRD you are. Are you the kind who wants to full-time gear? Are you the kind who wants to play it safe and wear the kind of gear that always give the same results? Or are you the kind of player who's willing to use anything to get the slightest edge over the other player?

Italics are mine.

Somewhat the heart of the matter. It makes me laugh that full-timing gear here is associated with a manifestly bad habit (I'm looking at you, bards with only three instruments!), but it will -- granted -- still come down to the finer points of opinion. I'm personally loath to make changes to my macros without a good reason. We'll be kind and call it a "practical" outlook. For example, I didn't bother with precast/endcast macros until I had a valk coat and a dalm and had a pressing reason to swap out (the difference between finishing in osode and finishing in manteel is 3chr, and I'd never noticed an accompanying difference in debuff accuracy).

Am I the kind of bard who wants to play it safe and wear the kind of gear that always gives the same results?

Well yes, actually. I confess! I am quite satisfied with the results. I've never really felt in competition with other bards to debuff anything, but my competitive urges might be misplaced. Where I end up inevitably competing with other players is in sleeping large links, consistent and careful buffing, and certain feats of support, survival, and/or positioning finesse. In short? Everywhere else.

"Getting an edge" is indeed the great motivator.

---

It's not that your answer was incorrect, Asmoranomar -- I agree with the general assessment -- it's just that in this case, I thought the more detailed table and conceptual explanation might be useful/helpful for the person in the OP. Perhaps I misjudged. We may never know.

The problem with telling people that CHR is good/works (at all), especially in these forums, is that they'll start wondering if they're at the point where CHR vs Macc/Skill becomes a question. The vast majority of walmart endgame bards I know don't break the 487 march tier and are just hoping to find a way to justify stacking CHR rather than striving for better Skill/Macc gear. The mind boggles.
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#8 Apr 07 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's not that your answer was incorrect, Asmoranomar

Well I certainly hope not. As I stated before, I worded my post in such a way that could be taken any number of ways - Because there is no correct answer that will apply to every aspiring BRD.

I just wanted to clarify that, while your post was informative, it was not entirely complete. It also sounded mildly biased toward aiming for MACC and Skill to be conservative toward landing rates since "MAcc pieces have more stable effects than CHR pieces" (which is fact, I will not dispute that). I find this ironic as you classify yourself as "the kind of player who's willing to use anything to get the slightest edge over the other player" yet you claim "My general conclusion, and what I do in practice, is to privilege Skill and Macc gear above CHR for debuffs".

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what I meant by that, but let me put this in perspective:
I assume the worst debuff rates, and gear accordingly. I am not concerned with petty resist rates on normal monsters, because quite frankly, I'm already over geared for most normal mobs anyways. This often results in me wearing quite a bit of CHR over skill in some slots. In some of your comparisons, I took the opposite piece of gear you recommended. However, in any instance where I'm confronted with a hard-to-debuff mob, I will be on the higher edge against a Skill/MACC conservative BRD.

The reason I gave my explanation the way I did was so that new BRDs could use the information to formulate a general opinion for what pieces of gear to aim for (there are a LOT of good options, and ANY of them work well). It also allowed midcore BRDs to identify what route, if any, they might want to take to take to get better. And it allowed hardcore BRDs to identify whether that 'ultimate' piece of gear is really worth getting (looking at you valkyrie coat).

Initially I said "That was kind of my point, by the time you get those pieces they are marginal upgrades." in referring to CHR. This also implies that CHR can sometimes give you marginal downgrades too. It's up to the player to determine if these are acceptable risks.

Your analysis wasn't incorrect, but I just felt that it was too conservative. This one is a bit more aggressive, but I'm not going to tell anyone "Get Marduk Jubbah for debuffs all other bodies suck." That's for each individual to decide.

Edit:
I'll give another scenario as an example:
Most BRD's won't be in a situation where they are stuck with Shadow Coat and wondering if Marduk is better (or vice-versa). Usually it's in a situation where they are in a lesser piece of gear looking to upgrade to one of the two desired pieces. Lets assume that this particular BRD has Choral Justaucorps +1, as it is probably the easiest, cheapest debuffing piece of equipment available to a lvl 75 BRD.

For a conservative BRD, one would look at gear and see it as somewhat lacking in magic accuracy (for wind debuffs anyways). This would be correct, but only on mobs they are already decently accurate against in the first place. Looking at Shadow Coat vs Marduk Jubbah, it's easy to see which piece of gear they would pick, as Marduk would be just as transparent to them as the Choral Jusaucorps +1. They would probably opt for the Shadow Coat when given the chance.

For an agressive BRD, they see the Choral Justaucorps +1 has having just as much magic accuracy as a Shadow Coat. This is also correct, but only on mobs they are not very accurate against. Because the Shadow Coat is only a minor improvement on landing debuffs on mobs which should relatively be easy to debuff to begin with, this BRD decides Marduk Jubbah is better for debuffs.

But, given a situation where our BRD already HAS the other corresponding gear, your already in a slim situation where the desired item offers minor improvements over the current one for that specific slot. It would then be more beneficial for our BRD to start looking at other gear options instead. When the road comes full circle and it's time to look at body pieces again, that BRD will have enough experience to determine which piece would suit them the best.

Remember: "(It's) usually better to pick Skill/MACC - provided you can get enough to overcome any situation where your over the diminishing returns of CHR." Only applies under ideal circumstances, and is the only completely correct answer. Unfortunately, Ideal never happens.


Edited, Apr 8th 2010 7:11am by Asmoranomar
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#9 Apr 08 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Asmoranomar wrote:
I just wanted to clarify that, while your post was informative, it was not entirely complete. It also sounded mildly biased toward aiming for MACC and Skill to be conservative toward landing rates since "MAcc pieces have more stable effects than CHR pieces" (which is fact, I will not dispute that). I find this ironic as you classify yourself as "the kind of player who's willing to use anything to get the slightest edge over the other player" yet you claim "My general conclusion, and what I do in practice, is to privilege Skill and Macc gear above CHR for debuffs".


Let me be clear that I don't classify myself as "the kind of player who's willing to use anything to get the slightest edge over the other player." There's merit in discussing why I find the phrase troubling, and in considering what both of us mean when we say "getting an edge." You may not see a difference where I do. Worth discussing, yes, at least to me. But maybe not to you. And definitely not in a gear/macc thread...

I appreciate the quite respectful disagreement, and the opportunity to put conflicting opinions in conversation with each other. My faith in the function of forums is somewhat restored.

Edited, Apr 8th 2010 3:00pm by Ezzelin
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#10 Apr 08 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Well if that's the case, maybe it was an err on my part, I assumed when you italicized part of my quote and claimed it was also your focus, you meant it in full context. Obviously after reading two conflicting statements it threw me way off.

I kinda see now where you went 'THIS IS IT....but...', although it wasn't very clear (maybe because of the placement or the conflict itself? who knows...)

And I really do understand that there is other factors to consider. After all, this entire discussion is only about numbers. I think the both of us realize that there's an individual behind the other side of the screen (at least we hope that naked BRD over there is...) and how they play is just as important (or more so) as what they wear on their character. Each person will have their own basis for playing the way they do, some of it personal preferences, and some of it based on the needs of the people they are playing with.

Even for myself, debuffing isn't the only thing I'm concerned with. I appreciate similar small victories, some such as you described (Although I do have to admit that 'position finesse' ought to be a requirement, not a warm fuzzy, 'good job' and/or pat on the back). Hopefully you don't see me as one of those BRD's who doesn't care about March tiers, even though my game title is permanently stuck at 'Ballad *****'. It's just I am not as exposed to many full-time BRDs who outright suck. Maybe I'm fortunate in that aspect.
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BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
#11 Apr 08 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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You've got the gist exactly. And yes, you're fortunate to be playing with bards who know what they're doing. Most of my career has been spent giving suggestions to people who are eager to do what's right/best for the group, but don't know what exactly "right" is or who haven't followed through to the next step. It's pretty safe to say that full-time bards (and I think of those as the people who really love the job) are few and far between.

I am inevitably the one training the new recruits, so it's also possible that I'm oversensitive to what can go wrong.

The sad part about having a relic horn and all the right march merits ... end up being relegated to ballad-***** duty, even when you've got epic march gear. *pat*
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