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#1 Mar 18 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Is the 50% time reduction for songs from gear only or including traits? I'm looking at minimizing time spent on songs for things like Nyzul or nasty-AoE targets and wondering if /RDM for those times that you want to keep moving is an easy way to cap.

15% Minstrel's Ring (can idle at full HP with enough +HP gear for macro)
10% Yigit Body
15% /RDM Fast Cast

If the trait is additional, then Yigit -> Manteel, Loq. Earring, Rostrum Pumps, Warlock Mantle could take songs down to 58% off.

Trying to convince myself to save the 4mil for manteel and drop coins on Loq., but I may stick with the /RDM option if that caps me for those times when Erase and DS/Curaga isn't necessary.
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#2 Mar 18 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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If I had to guess, the bonuses would be multiplicative rather than additive. Meaning that 15% fast cast doesn't directly stack with song spellcasting time-25%. I could be completely wrong but I wouldn't imagine they'd be the same. Most likely the SST-% would be applied (you have -35%) then the 65% song casting time is reduced by 15% from fast cast down to 55.25% of the original casting time, as opposed to just getting a straight 50% casting time by adding 35 and 15.

Maybe I should get fraps going to look into it, unless someone can confirm one way or another.






EDIT: I'm definitely wrong. And with 3.92 gb of source fraps files to prove it!

The short story: Yes, yigit/minstrel's/RDM sub will completely cap you out on song casting time. Any further fast cast (loq or rostrum) or SST-% (sha'ir or dweomer knives) will have zero effect on casting times.





I'm sure this has been done plenty of times before but I didn't couldn't remember where that research was so I just did my own.

Setup: Cranked my resolution way down and recorded myself casting two minutes and two madrigals, then averaged those 4 samples together. Used no instrument to help identify a starting point in VirtualDub. The first frame when you sing without an instrument as a taru, your eyes close and your mouth opens, so I started on that frame. Using the yarnball plugin, I picked the exact frame the buff duration timer appeared on the screen as the last frame to count how many frames the song took to cast.

I broke them down into two categories, /NIN (i.e. no fast cast) and /RDM (15% fast cast). For each subjob I counted out the frames for those 4 songs under the conditions of -41% song spellcasting time, -37% song spellcasting time, and naked.

Results:
 
/NIN			/RDM 
 
SST-41%			SST-41% 
150			126 
151			127 
150			123 
150			126 
 
150.25 avg  (60.52%)	125.5 avg  (50.55%) 
 
 
SST-37%			SST-37% 
160			126 
163			124 
154			126 
153			124 
 
157.5 avg  (63.44%)	125 avg  (50.53%) 
 
 
no SST			no SST 
247			212 
245			208 
252			208 
249			211 
 
248.25 avg  (100%)	209.75 avg  (84.49%)


Conclusions:

The fact that /RDM with SST-37% hits 50% casting time pretty much gives the game away. Virtually identical results from adding another SST-4% to the /RDM build, implying it had already hit the cap. Song spellcasting time-% and Fast cast stack directly, and have an absolute cap of -50% casting time.



Edited, Mar 18th 2010 7:05pm by bsphil
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#3 Mar 18 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Damnit! My server crashed two weeks ago and I had similar data that both supports and contradicts your findings.

Quote:
I'm sure this has been done plenty of times before but I didn't couldn't remember where that research was so I just did my own.


That was me (At least one of them, I'm sure there were others). I did a bunch of tests on FC/SST/Nightingale as well as HP/Latent. I also supported the findings on BG regarding the specific timing on equip macros and found that sometimes the server doesn't always swap gear fast enough (this was later confirmed with spellcast btw).

Unfortunately, I'm breaking a cardinal rule when it comes to talking about game dynamics and proving anything - Namely: Evidence. So if you must, take it with a grain of salt - Maybe simple discussion will re-motivate me to perform my tests again.

First: All I can say is that the start/stop timing is important. Usually when I read about these types of tests, people try to eyeball it or try to base it off the casting bar. If your talking about time, you need to find references that always happen at the same moment every single time, and you need to refer to those test in measures of time (such as secs, or something convertible such as frames). Fortunately, you did just that.

Quote:
The first frame when you sing without an instrument as a taru, your eyes close and your mouth opens, so I started on that frame.


This sounds reasonable if you can catch this every time (ie: no half-eyes closed or mouth part opened). I used a different method - When you have nothing selected and you 'start' a song, a cursor will appear immediately over your head. The cursor doesn't fade in, its either there or not - and was a good indication.

Quote:
Using the yarnball plugin, I picked the exact frame the buff duration timer appeared on the screen as the last frame to count how many frames the song took to cast.


Again, sounds reasonable - I can't even dispute this one due to the fact there's likely no half-way or fade-in. I used the same method previously however - With nothing selected, when you complete a song a cursor will hover over your head the moment the song finishes.

The only thing I will say is - Your frames vary quite a bit compared to mine. Maybe it was the eye/mouth part, or maybe something else, but when I performed tests I always had +-1 frame difference. The great thing was you could add up the frames off my naked tests and calculate the times, and it was always 8 seconds and/or +-1 frame (1/30 sec). At least in this aspect, my tests were more accurate than yours (but whats a few frames?).

I also performed my tests in a non-lag area (the chocobo racing area is perfect). Unfortunately my goal wasn't to find different casting times in different gear, but rather to see how FC/-SST/Nightingale stacked (Inconclusive, I couldn't find any correlation - I'd wear one setup and it would work one way, I'd try another and it wouldn't be what I expected). I know I came close to 50% with gear though.

What I will say is that 50% (4 secs) is NOT the absolute cap - Nightingale WILL reduce casting times further. IIRC I believe Nightingale always took place first and separate from the rest. Songs can be reduced to just slightly over 2 seconds (I could never get an exact 120 frames).

I will say though that the tests I performed were before the addition of D.Knifes, ACP Bodies, AMK Hats, and Ebon Talar sets - It's always possible SE changed something.

I would be really interested in seeing frame data for each individual piece of new gear though.
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#4 Mar 19 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
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So if I'm reading this right:

minstrel's ring: 25%
Manteel: 12%
Dweomer Knife: 5%
Dweomer Knife: 3%
Ebon Tam: 5%

Total 50%


That would be the maximum I could get without nightengale? No need to bust my rump to get an Ebur Tam with -song casting time for 'x element songs'? And Rdm sub wouldn't make it any faster at all (other than giving up one of the knives if not subbing ninja)? With /whm I put a loquacious in there to offset losing the other knife. Would be nice to be 'done' with a set forever if this is really as fast as it gets.
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#5 Mar 19 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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If it's truly additive and 50% capped, as the testing suggests, then you are done with your set for /RDM and /NIN. For /WHM you'll be 1% short (if you care) and could fix that with Rostrum Pumps (if the -HP doesn't kill your Minstrel activation, of course).

My other concern is having to idle at lower HP once I start adding these pieces.

 
Marine M Boots -> Rostrum Pumps            90 HP Lost 
Bloodbead Earring -> Loq. Earring          25 HP Lost 
Staff/Axe Grip -> Dweomer/???              20 HP Lost 
Walahra Turban -> Ebon Tam                 30 HP Lost 
 
TOTAL                                     165 HP Lost 


This results in having to idle in ~121 less HP to keep the latent on the Minstrel's Ring Active.

My current setup allows me to idle in HP neutral gear (actually a couple +HP items) for a total HP of 1106. Obviously situational, but I'm not sure that some of the benefits of getting out of AoE range ASAP outweigh the drop to 980ish HP when /WHM.

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 10:50am by JamisonP
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#6 Mar 19 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Asmoranomar wrote:
Quote:
The first frame when you sing without an instrument as a taru, your eyes close and your mouth opens, so I started on that frame.


This sounds reasonable if you can catch this every time (ie: no half-eyes closed or mouth part opened). I used a different method - When you have nothing selected and you 'start' a song, a cursor will appear immediately over your head. The cursor doesn't fade in, its either there or not - and was a good indication.
Well it's pretty obvious when it happens, and there is nothing halfway in between (you don't move to open your mouth or shut your eyes, it just instantly happens). If you step through one frame at a time, that's the absolute first thing to occur. The notes from the casting animation start appearing within 1~2 frames after that. For the sake of staying uniform I just picked that starting point.

Asmoranomar wrote:
The only thing I will say is - Your frames vary quite a bit compared to mine. Maybe it was the eye/mouth part, or maybe something else, but when I performed tests I always had +-1 frame difference. The great thing was you could add up the frames off my naked tests and calculate the times, and it was always 8 seconds and/or +-1 frame (1/30 sec). At least in this aspect, my tests were more accurate than yours (but whats a few frames?).

I also performed my tests in a non-lag area (the chocobo racing area is perfect).
I did my testing in a corner in Tavnazian Safehold zoomed in to reduce lag from drawing other character models at 1024x768 with a 1024x1024 background resolution. Maybe I'd redo them with any non-essential background program closed but as it stands now it's only a variation of a couple frames.

Asmoranomar wrote:
I would be really interested in seeing frame data for each individual piece of new gear though.
I guess I could but I'm not really sure how I'd go about condensing it down accurately from 4 GB. Smiley: dubious

JamisonP wrote:
My other concern is having to idle at lower HP once I start adding these pieces.

 
Marine M Boots -> Rostrum Pumps            90 HP Lost 
Bloodbead Earring -> Loq. Earring          25 HP Lost 
Staff/Axe Grip -> Dweomer/???              20 HP Lost 
Walahra Turban -> Ebon Tam                 30 HP Lost 
 
TOTAL                                     165 HP Lost 


This results in having to idle in ~121 less HP to keep the latent on the Minstrel's Ring Active.
Yeah, I wasn't happy about going from Creek M Clomps to Rostrum Pumps, but apparently when I'm /RDM I won't need to worry about those anymore.

Oh and right now I'm using Dweomer knife/Genbu's shield.

And I definitely agree that Nightingale will break that -50% casting time cap. I think of it akin to delay- versus haste, nightingale directly changing the 8 second song casting time to 4 seconds, then applying the -50% casting time to bring it all the way down to 2 seconds.

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 4:20pm by bsphil
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#7 Oct 30 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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/thread revival


Am I seeing things, or does Atma of Ambition go beyond the 50% cap? It looked like, to me, that my songs were going off around ~38%

Edit: while we're talking about that, I had Deep Devourer/Ambition equipped with only 35% song casting time, deep devourer capped me, ambition gives ~10%? fast cast and loquac. earring for the ~38%

Edited, Oct 30th 2010 12:50pm by SakkaofValefor
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#8 Oct 30 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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SakkaofValefor wrote:
/thread revival


Am I seeing things, or does Atma of Ambition go beyond the 50% cap? It looked like, to me, that my songs were going off around ~38%
Seriously? You made a 7 month necro for that?

The cast bar isn't exact.
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#9 Oct 30 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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No, it's not exact, obviously. I don't have the things needed to see if it they do go beyond casting cap.
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#10 Oct 30 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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SakkaofValefor wrote:
No, it's not exact, obviously. I don't have the things needed to see if it they do go beyond casting cap.
38% is about what i cast at on rdm with 40% fc.

No, it doesn't go past 50%.
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