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the 99 cap and gjallarhornFollow

#1 Mar 08 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I skimmed the first page and saw nothing on this, sorry if its a repeat.

Has anyone given thought to the fact that Gjallarhorn is one of the upgraded relic peice that is most likely to still be useful at 99? I have seen nothing implying that any other instrument will get as much +skill or +ballad. Weapons dmg gets outpaced, but I don't know if I could see SE making anything much better than gjallarhorn, unless they made a version that was +3 to all songs...

Thoughts? Will dynamis become home to armies of people mostly just trying to upgrade horns? or do we think that other weapons may still get upgraded?
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#2 Mar 08 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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We know they have a system with the ability to make Gjallarhorn stronger for songs, it's not really surprising if they made Ballad 1/2 horns, that'd only be a small part of why Gjallar is currently useful, if there's a Gjalla+ that still does things better.
#3 Mar 09 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Completely opposite from where I thought this post would be going. Considering this quote from the interview:

Quote:
To help manage instruments, the Magian system may allow for a single instrument to support bonuses on multiple song types.


I assumed you were going to question the future value of the brd relic as this implies the possibility of making an alternative "all purpose" instrument that may even include ballad.

Also, as far as I can tell, there's nothing indicating other relics or mythics being replaced. While this is certainly a possible outcome depending on future equipment releases and upgrade options, there's been no outright statements indicating such a thing.
#4 Mar 09 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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hellbringerx wrote:

Also, as far as I can tell, there's nothing indicating other relics or mythics being replaced. While this is certainly a possible outcome depending on future equipment releases and upgrade options, there's been no outright statements indicating such a thing.


Those same upgrades(or better from the sound of the teasers) can be applied to a Gjallarhorn. Even if there is a ballad +1 horn, a Ballad +3 horn is still better, same goes for 2/4 etc. Ballad+ just becomes a norm like every other instrument we have currently.
#5 Mar 13 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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aegis is still likely to be among one of the relics that don't become worthless. at least, in the sense that we're talking that the 99 will render weapons obsolete
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#6 Mar 13 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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TaterzZ wrote:

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aegis is still likely to be among one of the relics that don't become worthless. at least, in the sense that we're talking that the 99 will render weapons obsolete


Except that they said that you will be able to upgrade the relic weapons. I am still wondering how level 99 will render weapons useless. I see this everywhere.

Most of the current relics aren't quested for their base dmg. The difference in base dmg from relics to weapons we can obtain through quests/AH isn't that amazing to make relics amazing. It's a little boost.

What's so great about relics is the hidden effect they offer as well as some having really great weapon skills.

If the higher base dmg meant anything you'd see a lot of people going for the staff, great sword and Polearm. Those 3 weapons offer very little to the job that they can't already get on AH or from a NM. Actually some weapons offer better boosts than the relic.

SE will boost relics. Therefore, you can expect a boost to the horn. You just got to pray that SE is nice enough to add boosts such as song duration (by a very good amount), +1 to all songs or higher amount to some songs, and most likely song recast -%.
#7 Mar 13 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
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the problem lies in the damage rating. the cap is being raised to 99, think about what that means in terms of monster defense and damage penalties. exp mobs will most likely range in the 105-115 range, which means the lv 75 relic would suffer a 30 odd level penalty. in our current standing, that's equal to a level 30-40 weapon on a lv 75 mob.

that damage penalty is also going to play a huge role in weaponskill damage. i doubt they're not going to add in new weapons, as that wouldn't make sense. ****, it doesn't even make SE sense. oh, and before someone mentions "lol look at soboro", that weapon has a special property that essentially negates it's lowered attack value.

it all depends on how well these upgrades are going to be for the weapons, which is where all the complaints probably lie. knowing SE, it's probably not going to be anything truely significant
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#8 Mar 13 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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TaterzZ wrote:

Quote:
the problem lies in the damage rating. the cap is being raised to 99, think about what that means in terms of monster defense and damage penalties. exp mobs will most likely range in the 105-115 range, which means the lv 75 relic would suffer a 30 odd level penalty. in our current standing, that's equal to a level 30-40 weapon on a lv 75 mob.


Well, on their official website, it states that the quest is to do the following at level 75: Weapon and armor enhancement.

It's a given that it also means raising the base dmg of the weapon. Now, if that's not what you meant by damage penalty, I'd like a clarification.

Right now, we can already raise the base dmg on some weapons using FoV. The focus of this new quest is that you can get the bonuses of FoV but actually choosing which reward you'd like to see rather than random.

I think I see your point considering that they are level 75 weapons. However, there's nothing holding them back from adding a latent a la CoP rings to the weapons that increases their stats/dmg as you level to 99.

If I understand right, the weapon would still be just as good as it is right now at 75 but as you level, it grows in power so that it's still the ultimate weapon at level 99.
#9 Mar 14 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Umm just no. The damage penalty isn't give to you based on your fricking weapon its done based on YOUR level vs the monsters level. And weapon base D is only part of the full formula, there is also fSTR and cRatio, both of which are mostly weapon agnostic.

Also SE stated that you will be able to upgrade your weapons / armor multiple times and that relic would get "special" upgrades. The specifically mentioned current weapons / gear not being outdated through their new system. It seems to be the augmented system but your eligible to select the bonus's rather then have them randomly given.
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#10 Mar 14 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Except that they said that you will be able to upgrade the relic weapons. I am still wondering how level 99 will render weapons useless. I see this everywhere.

Because if the weapon needs upgrading to be useful, then the weapon as it stands now will likely not be useful.

And, we know almost nothing about the upgrade path that SE has mentioned. It seems a little naive to assume that players will be able to casually turn a weapon into something 24 levels more powerful. If you spent years acquiring a completed relic, would you be happy to hear that it is about to become incomplete?
#11 Mar 15 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Default
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I am not being sarcastic here. I would just like to be educated as I am still not understanding.

Could you please give me an example of what you expect a weapon to be like at 99 so that it overcomes the damage penalty?

Also, I forgot but how much penalty do you take by having a mob 15 levels above you.

Although, I am not so much into the math of the game, I guess this is the time that I will have to learn.
#12 Mar 15 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Default
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Umm just no. The damage penalty isn't give to you based on your fricking weapon its done based on YOUR level vs the monsters level. And weapon base D is only part of the full formula, there is also fSTR and cRatio, both of which are mostly weapon agnostic.

Also SE stated that you will be able to upgrade your weapons / armor multiple times and that relic would get "special" upgrades. The specifically mentioned current weapons / gear not being outdated through their new system. It seems to be the augmented system but your eligible to select the bonus's rather then have them randomly given.


as stated earlier, go bring a level 30-40 weapon on a merit mob and compare it's damage to a level 75 weapon. the weapon upgrade is going to have to substantial enough to put it on par with a level 99 weapon (down the line, of course). the reason i can see complaints is due to the fact that after years of dynamis, they're going to have to do another quest if they choose to go to 99 with it.

knowing SE and their unusually long fetishes, it's probably going to be dull, boring or painful to do. at least, that's how i foresee the problems with the 99 cap.
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#13 Mar 19 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I mentioned before, the level of a weapon has absolutely nothing to do with its damage output. The level of the target monsters has nothing to do with the weapon used on it.

The only thing level is used for is the players level vs the targets level for calculating LCF (level correction factor). Weapon stats do in general get better over time, but almost every weapon sucks until 70+ when all the unique attributes come into play. I know of several level 72~73 weapons that are considerably stronger then their level 74~75 cousins.

And the ultimate counter to any argument about weapon level is things like Soboro and Viking Axe's.
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#14 Mar 19 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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And the ultimate counter to any argument about weapon level is things like Soboro and Viking Axe's.

Both of which are worse than AH-able items 25 levels later? That comparison isn't going to do much to soothe worried relic holders.

A naked MNK is (most likely) going to see a base damage improvement of 12 points by the time they hit 99 (and almost certainly at least a 10% delay reduction as well). Every other DD job is going to see a comparable improvement, or everyone is going to be a MNK at 99. That gives us a pretty reasonable baseline for what normal level 99 weapons are going to offer.

So, yes, because h2h damage is pegged directly to skill level (and hence job level), and because there will be at least a pretense of job balance 76+, weapons will get better than they are now at higher levels, and relic weapons with their current stats will look increasingly less appealing at higher levels. Only a very significant alteration of game mechanics (which is needed regardless, but which I personally doubt we'll get) will change this.

Which leaves us with what SE has already told us: relic items will be upgradeable to maintain their value. In a fair world, the upgrade will be simple and painless after all the expense of getting a relic in the first place. Whether that happens remains to be seen.
#15TaterzZ, Posted: Mar 20 2010 at 12:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) and like i said, go grab a lower level weapon and compare your swing damage with a level appropriate one. there's a pretty significant difference in damage done, based on it's damage rating. why do you think warriors are called gimp if they're using viking axes when darksteel (+1) is avaliable?
#16 Mar 20 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
and like i said, go grab a lower level weapon and compare your swing damage with a level appropriate one. there's a pretty significant difference in damage done, based on it's damage raing. why do you think warriors are called gimp if they're using viking axes when darksteel (+1) is avaliable?
THE LEVEL YOU CAN EQUIP A WEAPON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT'S DAMAGE. Jesus H Christ, how dense can you be? WARs are gimp if they use Viking Axe, not because it's equipable at level 48, but because it's base damage is 7 lower than Darksteel +1. Coincidentally, WARs using axes anytime other than 55-59 are fair game to be called gimp. Great axe and Shield Break really are that godly.

Monk's beast weapon from until 72 is a level 50 weapon, Cross-Counters. The Feral Fangs at level 66 don't hold a candle to Cross-Counters.

Stop using the level a weapon can be equipped like some kind of magic indicator of when it's useful. On average yes, base damage goes up with higher level weapons. But not always. (Not counting obvious **** like level 1 axes versus level 73 axes)
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#17 Mar 20 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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Soboro (Lv 50) beats every GKT until Hagun (Lv 72), and then their equal depending on the build. Once you get even more godly gear the Soboro pulls ahead due to how fSTR and WS's are calculated.

And seeing as the current "modifiable" weapons work, is it really that hard to imagine an augment of +12 D at level 85? Or +15~20D at level 90+?

Now only will MNK get higher D value and lower delay, Ninja will also get better DW and anyone /NIN will get DWIII. Those are insane improvements when coupled with currently available gear, not to mention if they create any other high level R/EX stuff.

All one needs to do is look at currently available "augmented" options, from the mini-expansion rewards to the random ones from the weapon quest fights, to get an idea of what will be available. But you will get to CHOOSE (SE has straight up stated this) the upgrade reward for the quests.

The other argument against them making too much more "higher level" equipment is the crafting system. Current 70+ equipment is 90+ skill most of the time, for craft-able equipment you would need over 100 skill, and I seriously doubt they'll tinker with that too much. So everything over 75 would need to be r/ex, NM dropped or quest rewarded in order to beat existing equipment.

Really guys, who the fck wants to use the EXACT SAME equipment at 80~90 that we're using at 70~75?
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#18 Mar 20 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
based on it's damage rating


did you not see that part? i never said the level of the weapon causes it.
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#19 Mar 20 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Default
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1. What most people are failing to see, specially about relics, is that SE has said that they will increase the base dmg through quests. There's nothing that keeps SE from adding the following to a weapon:

Latent Effect: Damage increases with level.

2. Saevellakshimi wrote:

Quote:
Really guys, who the fck wants to use the EXACT SAME equipment at 80~90 that we're using at 70~75?


I do. Currently, for every weapon type, we have lots of weapons available for levels 70-75. Out of those lot, only 1 is necessary while maybe another is situational.

It's time for SE to make all those weapons they released actually worth using for something. We don't need another 20 weapons for each type released with only one being actually worth going for.
#20 Mar 21 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
i never said the level of the weapon causes it.


Quote:
the problem lies in the damage rating. the cap is being raised to 99, think about what that means in terms of monster defense and damage penalties. exp mobs will most likely range in the 105-115 range, which means the lv 75 relic would suffer a 30 odd level penalty. in our current standing, that's equal to a level 30-40 weapon on a lv 75 mob.


The way you keep phrasing it, you make level of the weapon sound important, when it doesn't mean jack squat. Destroyers and Eurytos Bow. Both weapons in the 50s, both lasting into the 70s.

When you say "the lv 75 relic would suffer a 30 odd level penalty", that is non-sense, and utterly untrue. If you don't see why Saevel and I have been picking this apart, then you aren't paying attention to what you write.
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#21 Mar 21 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Minor nitpick, Destroyers are level 73. Perhaps you meant Cross-Counters or T.M. Hooks (+1/2)?
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#22 Mar 22 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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Oops, I had mentioned Cross-counters in my previous post, then mixed them up with Destroyers in the last post. Thank you for the correction, CC is most definately what I was referring to.
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#23 Mar 30 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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this is a really sad thread... if you don't know anything at all about damage, don't post about it. there's no level penalty on base damage; a lot of the posts in this thread are incomprehensible nonsense. this sh*t is all clearly spelled out on the wiki under "calculating physical damage", or in any of the hundreds/thousands of example-ridden posts myself and others have made explaining it (google could work to find those).

anyway, what i'm interested in is march from a lv99 BRD. 100~ combined skill is a tiny bit less than 2% haste for victory march, right? which is around what you'll get from skill if it keeps scaling up similarly to the road to 75. add to this the possibility of a 3rd march, and BRD is basically the only other job (aside from MNK and PUP whose base damage depends on skill and will be broken if SE doesn't change damage mechanics) that will benefit greatly just from the level cap raise (assuming you get more skill).

as for relics becoming obsolete, it's pretty clear that they're not releasing better weapons than relics; ie you'll be wearing lv75-stat gear at lv99. taking MNK again as an example (since it's what i care about), the 2 upgradable h2h are worse than non-upgraded spharai anyway (and might be worse than faith baghnakhs, depending on how their occasionally attacks twice works). as with all the other relics, gjallahorn will still be useful for exactly the same things as it was before. it in fact may be more useful as low man stuff becomes more and more popular.

edit: if it's unclear why i'm stickling over the goodness of 2% haste just from gaining levels, it's because haste gets better when stacked. currently, the best you can get is about 70% haste in non-soul voice situations without haste samba. adding 2% haste to that would be possible under the current mechanics, as the magic haste cap allows for it--15% from spell + usual 20% from 2 marches is only 35%~ haste, with the cap being around 43%~--and total haste cap is 80% because SE wanted to nerf DRK zerging which used to break 80%. 2% haste on top of 70% haste is about 7.1%~ DoT. that's very nice.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 3:34am by milich
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#24 Apr 23 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Default
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You guys should try out WoW, there are quest chains that take forever, in comparison with the relics in FFXI, and nearly every patch those items become useless. One time in 5 years where some hard to obtain items become useless is incredible, as the itemisation in FF is so good.

Just roll with the punches.
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#25 Apr 24 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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clarkeyboy wrote:
You guys should try out WoW, there are quest chains that take forever, in comparison with the relics in FFXI, and nearly every patch those items become useless. One time in 5 years where some hard to obtain items become useless is incredible, as the itemisation in FF is so good.

Just roll with the punches.


you are implying that this would be the first update to make a difficult to acquire item (or job, or general role, or essential strategy, or entire event) obsolete, which itself implies that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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#26 Apr 26 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps I am just missing something, but aren't the two main benefits of Gjallarhorn ballad+2 and saving inventory space? The 10 skill definitely makes it superior to other +2 instruments, but not substantially. While it's unlikely to see a ballad +2 instrument, you might spot a +1 version to compensate for new spells with higher casting costs.

I'm pretty confident that they will have Ballad 3 and Minuet 5. A third march might appear, but at the same time given that bards should be getting 75-125 increase in both singing and wind that might be able to hit haste cap with haste spell, but without soul voice. Assuming they don't have a cap you could expect a 2-3% increase for each march for a new max of ~28%. A lullaby on par with sleepga II and Massacre Elegy also seem reasonable enough.


Remember that Aegis and Gjallarhorn will probably have their own magian trials soon enough so it wouldn't be surprising to see +3 to all songs and some more wind skill added to it (no one would waste time upgrading unless you could get +3 IMO). Aegis will probably have an option for higher defense, which will in turn make shield procs reduce even more damage. Neither will be outdated...granted neither is even that useful for how easy all the 75 content has become.

The rest of the relic weapons will probably have more trials to increase damage or possibly other stats once SE becomes more comfortable with their trial of magian quests. Personally, I don't expect weapons to scale the same way they did from 1-75 from 76-99. At best you'll see some weapons with slightly better DPS than the relics, but they won't have substantial stats, special weapon skills, or relic-crit procs so they'll be inferior.
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