Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Max damage for the party? March, Minuet, madrigal?Follow

#1 Jan 08 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,146 posts
What is best changes with how much haste, acc, and your attack vs mob def ratio. Is info somewhere on what is best song combo vs acc attack and haste?
#2 Jan 08 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
335 posts
darkhorror wrote:
What is best changes with how much haste, acc, and your attack vs mob def ratio. Is info somewhere on what is best song combo vs acc attack and haste?


Is there DRG for pt?
#3 Jan 08 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,128 posts
No DRG for party.
#4 Jan 08 2009 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
***
1,041 posts
The answer will depend on who you are partying with. Even two different DRG's may require different songs due to their individual setups.

Personally, I stick with March+Minuet. If I have a RNG or COR, I'll switch it to Minuetx2.

Usually tho, fast paced parties put me in auto-pilot mode and hours seem to rush by before I realize what time it is. Slow paced parties I usually stand around, sometimes even sleeping the mob mutliple times before they get to it. It's those parties I get bored fast, because time seems to crawl -- coincedently, these same parties I usually have to cast Madrigals.

I don't really focus so much on exp/hr, but instead how much a party keeps me distracted enough before I realize "I hate exp'ing". Because of this, and the fact that most poor parites need ACC, any time I start seeing the need to cast Madrigal, I get put off. It's like a foreshadow of what's to come, and I really hate casting it.

But as long as the person isn't trying to skill-up in my party, I'll try to accomidate them as much as I can.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 6:04pm by Asmoranomar
____________________________
Asmoranomar - Diabolos
BRD/RDM - Song Cast Time Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Debuff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
#5 Jan 08 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,003 posts
Quote:
Personally, I stick with March+Minuet. If I have a RNG or COR, I'll switch it to Minuetx2.


If there's a COR in your party you should be casting March x2. Always.

The only exception? Arrow burns.

Marches > Minuet > Mardigal.

Haste is incredibly broken, ATK is just hard to come by for some jobs, and ACC is easily boosted with sushi and common gear with huge ass ACC Boosts.
#6 Jan 08 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
**
620 posts
Of all the jobs in the game, Bard is the one that most benefits from having a parser. It is nothing like as simple as 1 song beating another.

If your parties average accuracy is below roughly 75% without Madrigal, the addition of Madrigal will outperform min or march. However if there is consistently more than 8% Haste on each DD, march begins to pull ahead. However march has 0 benefit to WS DMG, thus would likely need more like 10%+ Haste on everyone prior to march to exceed madrigal. (At least for 520delay(*))
While stacking atk you'll eyeball bigger numbers, on parse it also under performs without the necessary acc.

Example.
Not more than a week ago in a DRG burn in the early 50s I was sent a /tell from one of the members demanding I cast Mad/Min (presumably from the habit of having Mad/Min). Despite pointing out his accuracy with Mad/Mad wasn't parsing over 70% and even the most well geared in the party was just above 80% he basically claimed I was hurting the party.
Subsequently I changed songs for a bit and we didn't see past chain 5 for about half an hour.
Later switching back to Mad/Mad, we were back to breaking chain 6~7 every other pull, peaking at chain 9. I wouldn't personally say 20.1k/hr in the 50s sucked tbh.


Moral of the story, adapt your songs to suite the needs of your party. There are no songs you should just stick to, nor are there any you can write off. Bard is about maximizing a parties potential, and making up for there shortfalls. Not deliberately ignoring there shortfalls because they don't live up to your standards.

I mean, would you refuse to ballad a mage if he didn't have a decent Hmp set?



Quote:
ACC is easily boosted with sushi

Your logic is flawed. Madrigal quite often allows a DD to switch from sushi to meat/curry which will render a higher atk bonus than Minuet.



(*)For a 520 delay weapon
8.6 seconds a hit

Madrigal (30acc, 15% relative)
867 second to hit 100 times
90% hit rate, 90 hits

11% March
867 seconds to hit 113 times
75% hit rate, 84.75 hits

11%March + 8% Haste
867 Seconds to hit 120 times
75% hit rate, 90 hits
#7Arucaurd, Posted: Jan 08 2009 at 6:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Haste + Meat >>> Haste + Sushi >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACC/ATK + Meat.
#8 Jan 08 2009 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
**
551 posts
It all depends on the party set up.

If you're partying, and you're the only brd, use mad/min.
If you're partying, and there are two bards, 2x marches for the puller brd, mad/min (or 2x min if melees are eating acc food)for the camp brd..
If you're partying, and there is you as a brd and another player as cor, the songs and rolls will depend on the party set up (mainly what's your frontline set up)

If you're in a merit party, and you're the only brd, use min/march
If you're in a merit party, and there are two bards, 2x marches for the puller brd, mad/min or 2x mins for the camp brd..
If you're in a merit party, and there is you as a brd and another player as cor, the songs and rolls depends on what you're fighting and you're party set up.

Typically when I'm on brd with a cor, I usually do min/mar on Mamool camp, and 2x Mad against mamool lurker in merit parties. COR can either do fighter/chaos or fighter/sam rolls.


Edited, Jan 8th 2009 11:31pm by RusticusSageo
____________________________
RDM BRD BLM COR PLD SAM BLU WAR THF MNK 75
Morrigan's Robe Set: 5/5
SUBS: WHM NIN RNG DRK DRG DNC SCH
#9 Jan 09 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,607 posts
You need to check your pty's gear, and note what food they are using.

Also, remember that Haste gets better the more it stacks. Using March song at level 50 will do far less then using that same march song in a meripo when you have haste cycles going. It will also do far less then Minuet or Madrigal will do.

You see some bards who have just got march who use it when they could be using a madrigal or minuet for far greater returns. Once melee start gearing up 15+ haste, and the Rdm or Whm are keeping the melee hasted, 2xMarch 20% Haste songs will do super stuff once taking melee over the 50% haste mark.

Don't listen to what pty leaders ask for (especially if you think their combo is flawwed), make your own decision using the knowledge you have gained, based on jobs, gears, and food's used.

As a Cor, I try to get the pty to use the same foods (either att or acc) and give the opposite buff. In meripo I can't see myself moving from Corsair's/Chaos other than rare occasions.
____________________________
Taking a break.
#10 Jan 09 2009 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,003 posts
The reason Haste is so amazing, and March x2 should be your standard songs, unless you have a majority of people using Ranged attacks that is, is because it is an offensive and defensive buff.

Most parties have DD or Tanks with utsusemi. Marches lower the recast time, meaning more shadows, less damage, and less mp used to cure. This is all in addition to the AMAZING offensive boost 20% haste gives.

In all honesty, if you're not over camping, fighting NIN/THFs, or partying with RNGs, Marches x2 will outdo any combo involving Min/Mad with only 1 BRD, not only in DD power, but most likely in defensive power too, as long as the mage is hasting the DD.

Why in the seven hells would you give a buff that a COR can give if you're partying with them? I mean, you have a buff that no food or COR can give DD, and you're giving them a buff that a COR can give? You can give more with your ACC/ATK buffs, but you could give less too.
#11 Jan 09 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,274 posts
March is nice for lowering recast timers, but it is not always a defensive buff.

I would hope it is in most merit party situations since the mob should be dead in 30-40 seconds, however double march feeds mobs a lot of tp. If it only has time to get off 1 or 2 mobs probably not an issue (ie standard merit party) but I've seen many situations where double march only succeeds in killing the party.
____________________________
FFIX Melee Damage Comparitor
Brimstone
#12 Jan 09 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,003 posts
Mobs gain tp faster than a SAM with full time meditate unless the only people meleeing are MNK or NIN with Penance/Subtle blow builds/buffs.

Mobs get ((attacker's base TP)+3)*(1 - Subtle Blow) tp per hit.

TP feeding is the most retarded excuse ever unless its a Higher up NM.



That excuse is old, retarded, and needs to @#%^ing die.
#13 Jan 09 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
***
1,996 posts
There are a lot of proponents of march and rightfully so. However, blade madrigal with decent gear and hq instrument gives 34 acc, or an increased hit rate of over 16% (not counting flash/etc). If March is not adding at least a 16% increase for TP then madrigal is better.

Granted, this won't be often. First of all, ALL of your melee must be parsing under 79% accuracy or some of your madrigal will be 'lost' as they will bump into the acc cap anyway. Secondly, even if they are under 79%, the 11ish% haste that march gives will often give greater than a 16% increase in attack speed due to gear/spell haste stacking with it. For more information about how 11% haste does more when you already have 30% haste on than it does when you have none look......somewhere else, iunno, its everywhere.


HOWEVER....one thing to remember is that even if it is close (and like I said this wont happen often, especially with good melee), is that march does NOTHING for your WS and madrigal does (especially for multihit from 1h or hth). If during TP you gain approximately the same bonus from 11% haste and a 16-17% increase in hit rate then you SHOULD use madrigal because it will boost your WS damage whereas march will not.


Of course, this doesnt take into account recast timers etc.
____________________________


#14 Jan 09 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,003 posts
You also need to take into account that you can get tp faster with haste, leading to more WSs. Also, the type of WS matters a lot. If your party is using Single hit WSs, the ACC is completely useless for them.

Another thing, BRDs should take into consideration the needs of the majority of the DD in the party, and not accommodate the weakest.
#15 Jan 10 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Default
30 posts
I'm full time Mad/Min in a single bard merit/xp party and it has worked wonders for 2 years.
#16 Jan 10 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,003 posts
So do some servers still live in the @#%^ing Dark Ages or something? In Remora Bards get booted for doing stupid sh*t.
#17 Jan 10 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,109 posts
Table comparing damage increases from march to acc and att

 
Haste	% damage	% damage		% damage	Additional acc	additional attack needed to 
Before	increase from	increase: march1	increase with	needed to match	match both(82 mob 327 def) 
March	march1	march2	(if march 2 is up)	both marches	march1*	both	360 att	390 att	420 att 
0	09.89	11.36	11.25			25.00		20	38	61.39	68.89	76.39 
5	10.47	13.10	12.00			26.67		21	40	65.48	73.48	81.48 
10	11.11	13.92	12.86			28.57		22	43	70.16	78.73	87.30 
15	11.84	14.86	13.85			30.77		24	45	75.55	84.75	94.02 
20	12.68	15.94	15.00			33.33		25	48	81.85	91.85	101.85 
25	13.36	17.19	16.36			36.36		27	51	89.29	100.20	111.11 
30	14.75	18.64	18.00			40.00		29	55	98.22	110.22	122.22 
35	16.07	20.37	20.00			44.44		32	59	109.13	122.47	135.80 
40	17.65	22.45	22.50			50.00		35	64	122.77	137.78	152.78 
45	19.57	25.00	25.71			57.14		39	70	140.31	157.46	174.60 
50	21.95	28.21	30.00			66.67		44	76	163.70	183.70	203.70 
 


Table notes:

*The number in this column is the amount of additional accuracy you need to match the damage lost by going (march2 + another buff) instead of going (march2 + march1).

A word about haste. I've used the (delay before buffs)/(new delay) to calculate the percent increase in attack. (if this doesn't make sense to you, think about someone with 50% haste. If they had a 100 delay weapon, then take off 50% delay (50 delay) and you're left with 50 delay for their attack interval. This means in 100 time units, instead of swinging once like before, they swing twice, resulting in a 100% increase in damage done).

Column 1 gives the total haste before marches have been applied. This covers gear, the spell haste, and JAs such as hasso. 40 is the cap for 1 handers (unless haste samba is on) as gear caps at 25 and haste spell gives 15.

Column 2 and 3 are the raw percent damage increases by march 1 and march 2. These numbers are slightly inflated from what you'd get ingame, as if you take too long between mobs the attack round resets, negating one round of haste bonus. (For example, player 1 (hasted) swings 4.5 times before a mob dies, player 2 (no haste) swings 4.0 times. If the next mob is engaged instantly, player 1 will only have .5 his haste-adjusted delay before his next hit. However, if he doesn't engage instantly, he will have his full haste-adjusted delay before his next hit, effectively negating the .5 rounds ahead he got on the last mob).

Column 3 gives the raw percent damage increase when march 1 is sung if march 2 is already in effect. (basically march 2 goes toward the "haste before buffs" and march 1's value toward the "new haste")

Column 4 gives the raw percent damage increase when both march 1 and 2 are applied at the same time. The comparison here is before either march with after both marches.

Column 5 and 6 give the amount of acc needed to match the percent damage gains from haste, respectively. The assumption here is that after acc is added total acc just barely hits 95% (the acc cap). (If your acc will not cap after the added acc from these columns, lower amounts of acc may well yield results equal to haste.)

Columns 7,8 and 9 give the amount of additional attack you'd need to increase your pDIF enough to match both marches' damage gains, at respective base player attacks (360,390,420). The numbers are based off fighting a lvl 82 greater colibri with 327 def (meaning no def down effect affecting it).

Edit: incomplete notes

Edited, Jan 10th 2009 4:30pm by Leonadis
____________________________
<tarutaru> semi-retired
Main Jobs: 75RDM (sept? 05) - 75BLM (July? 06) - 75WAR (feb ~14 07) 75 PLD (may ~2 07) 75 BLU (jan 08) 75 DRK (~feb 08)
Full Subs: 62WHM/38THF/42NIN/51BRD/RNG37/SAM37/44COR/37BST/37SCH
In Progress subs: 16MNK/21SMN/21DRG/30DNC
I do not have pup unlocked.
Ragnarok

MargavineLiselle wrote:
Alright, I'm tired of being civil, and now I'm tired of being sarcastically condescending, too.

lolgaxe wrote:
Whining about having to farm is so 2004.
#18 Jan 10 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
***
1,996 posts
Not to criticize as this is nice work, but its missing the most important comparison: attack needed at 360, 390, and 420 to overtake march 1 since the main argument will be marchx2 vs min/march for all nicely geared melee.

Unfortunately, this will be incomplete too since march does nothing for WS while minuet does a ton.


Incidentaly, replacing both marches with minuet will give 124 attack (with merits) which means according to this chart min/min would exceed or break even with march/march at up to 40% haste, which would be 25% gear haste and haste spell. And this doesn't even consider increased ws damage that min would add that march would not.


Of course all of that is an argument of min/min vs. march/march which is not the appropriate argument.
____________________________


#19 Jan 10 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
***
3,003 posts
I am a DD so I actually have experience with this.

Quote:
Unfortunately, this will be incomplete too since march does nothing for WS while minuet does a ton.


This is WS dependent because most Single Hits get a huge attack bonus making Min/Min less useful on them. You also neglect the concept of DoT. Minuet increases total WS damage by making each hit stronger. March does a @#%^ TON for total WS damage by giving you a lot more tp, and thus a lot more WSs over time. For something like a SAM, march is the obvious winner for WS damage (SAM WSS hit 95% of the time with no ACC buffs or ACC gear because they're all single hits, and they all recieve a huge pDIF bonus).

Also, to reach 40% haste you can have just 15% in gear, 15% in haste, and 10% from hasso if you're a two-handed DD.

Haste is just too good to pass up.
#20 Jan 10 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
***
1,996 posts


Quote:
This is WS dependent because most Single Hits get a huge attack bonus making Min/Min less useful on them. You also neglect the concept of DoT. Minuet increases total WS damage by making each hit stronger. March does a @#%^ TON for total WS damage by giving you a lot more tp, and thus a lot more WSs over time. For something like a SAM, march is the obvious winner for WS damage (SAM WSS hit 95% of the time with no ACC buffs or ACC gear because they're all single hits, and they all recieve a huge pDIF bonus).


Noted, but also note madrigal does the same while helping the WS itself. Whether you are getting extra hits from haste or acc the end result will be more WS. Also, it takes a a lot of things to fall into place for the entire party to be sitting at 3.0 pdif. Catering to one DD (in this case SAM) is counterproductive. And didn't I overtly say I wasn't arguing for min/min?


Quote:
Also, to reach 40% haste you can have just 15% in gear, 15% in haste, and 10% from hasso if you're a two-handed DD.


But then you get into whats better hasso+/nin or seigan+/war. Plus there are such things are 1h melee. You don't just get hasso for nothing. You have to give something up.

Quote:
Haste is just too good to pass up.


And in most cases I think you are right. But on chariot fights you want min/min during the bards two hour because when the Sam and the Mnk WS they will be getting TP w/o worrying about building it when they 2hour. Same with DL. Same on flayers in nyzul. Same on JOL. Etc etc etc.

I'm not saying march isn't better. I'm simply saying there are holes in the excellent chart provided by Leonadis because a few things were left out. A little more comprehensive and I'll be the first to nominate it for a sticky.
____________________________


#21 Jan 10 2009 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
83 posts
With 12-15% Haste in equipment(Walahra Turban, Dusk, Swift Belt), and Haste spell, you're up to ~30% Haste.

Add on Marches(Approximately 21% Haste) and you're up to ~50% Haste.

Because Haste has exponential returns, Minuet and Madrigal will never touch this for a raw damage output.

Feeding tp is an invalid excuse except in an HNM scene.

To answer the OP's question, assuming we're talking about merits, if your DDs have 15%+ Haste in equipment , sing Marches. If they don't, leave the party and continue seeking.



Edited, Jan 11th 2009 12:31am by starby
____________________________
Starblaster
75NIN 75RDM 75PLD Shiva Server
75BLM 75SMN 75SCH
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (15)