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#52 Apr 18 2011 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Hiya,
I'd like to thank all of you involved in the actual testing and write-up of the above pets currently available and commend you for all your hard work, I have been wanting such stats for quite a while and your findings are very interesting ! The dedication, to say nothing of cost and time involved in testing is really appreciated by many I'm sure and if there was some way to give you a medal I would !

Just a few questions, do any of you have any details/stats available for using pets from different echelons and family strengths ?
For eg, I have recently tried using pets spur/tp moves to compensate for them being in a lower echelon, a classic being FF against a Lvl 82 NM Funguar, we both got wiped before I could use 'TP Drain' and on 2nd attempt tried using a NN on the wrong assumption that as it was in the 1st Echelon/Family it should fare better, however this just shows the effect of the family loop effect and NN was ko'd equally as fast as FF.

Do you think that SE will bring in new pets for the new caps or just raise x amount of current pets avaialable to the new cap ?

Thank you all very much again !
Jon


Edited, Apr 18th 2011 7:59am by joncowman
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#53 Apr 18 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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joncowman wrote:
Hiya,
I'd like to thank all of you involved in the actual testing and write-up of the above pets currently available and commend you for all your hard work, I have been wanting such stats for quite a while and your findings are very interesting ! The dedication, to say nothing of cost and time involved in testing is really appreciated by many I'm sure and if there was some way to give you a medal I would !

Just a few questions, do any of you have any details/stats available for using pets from different echelons and family strengths ?
For eg, I have recently tried using pets spur/tp moves to compensate for them being in a lower echelon, a classic being FF against a Lvl 82 NM Funguar, we both got wiped before I could use 'TP Drain' and on 2nd attempt tried using a NN on the wrong assumption that as it was in the 1st Echelon/Family it should fare better, however this just shows the effect of the family loop effect and NN was ko'd equally as fast as FF.

Do you think that SE will bring in new pets for the new caps or just raise x amount of current pets avaialable to the new cap ?

Thank you all very much again !
Jon



Edited, Apr 18th 2011 7:59am by joncowman


sounds like you are trying morille mortelle. Use Dipper Yuly for that. Morille does a magical tp move which makes it very hard to avoid w/ other pets. if you are talking about killer effects... I guess I'll go out and test ferine cabasset +2 while I get some numbers on merle.... but If you are talking about differences in damage when having a plantoid vs a plantoid or a sheep or vermine... I've not found a difference in normal attack damage, only in intimidation as far as I've been able to tell.

as far as testing goes, I've got to get more attack+ atma and gear before I can get some better information.. at least thats what I'm waiting on.

Edited, Apr 18th 2011 10:50am by Xilk
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#54 Apr 19 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I went out a did a bit more testing.
fargan has 6.9 tp/hit
Merle has 4.8 (h2h 2 hits/round, so 9.6 tp/normal attack round means merle gains TP fastest of jugs!)

Any mnks around to point to some good clarification for confirming martial arts traits? I'm not really familiar w/ h2h damage calculations. I'm guessing this shows the base 480 delay from h2h, but tp gain for h2h will only change w/ weapon delay additions, correct? so there is no added delay to Merle's h2h, and we'll probably be able to verify tier 7 Martial arts if using fraps or perhaps parsing attacks/time.

I was also doing some testing of spur and Ferine Ocreae +2 and Ferine Cabasset +2's "enhance monster correlation effects". I'll have to sort out my data a bit to check if it indicates anything for the head peace. I'm guessing it may be similar to the blue artifact armor that does the same thing. It did not increase the damage of Silence gas from Louise, but that is probably because its a breath attack, w/ static magical damage based of HP. I think additional tp only enhances Magic accuracy for Silence gas... (1005 damage unresisted at 100% hp, monster correlation and manoplas +2 had no effect on damage amount. 251 damage for resists, which were surprisingly common even vs level 0 mobs ;.;) Silence gas was a poor choice to test these on.. as breath damage depends on hp... I was thinking the consistent damage ... blah blah...
I only tested Silence gas and wild oats today. glyph axe is wonderful for this. Wild oats is physical ofcourse, just like blue magic parallel (they are not necessarily exactly the same, though the stat mods for blue spells are a good place to start testing). it was funny, I need more data, but I often got hits of ~70 on rarabs (testing correlation) and ~130 vs tiny mandy's. Just as often though, I got ~330 on mandies and 280 on rarabs. I'm pretty sure from tp return that its a single hit, but my very last one, I got ~540 damage on a rarab, and I think it was a crit hit from the animation. I only hit 540 once, it was not normal. I only have a sample size of 16 wild oats, and I was getting drowsy (and building tp off level 1's is tedious). I'll pay closer attention to animations and tp return.

Which leads me into some of my thoughts I wanted to discuss concerning testing. Using the base tp values for each pet, (which I think we have all now) it gives us a tool to test ready moves.

I'm going to start compiling ready move data for pets. If you actually look at the symbols on the ready list next to the moves, they should indicate which ones are physical, magical, and any elemental correlations. The symbols are the same as those used for blue magic.

for the physical ready moves, we should be able to check tp return and determine if they are multihit or not. I don't see any indicator in the game log to indicate if it is a crit hit or not, though I rather suspect Wild oats has a chance to crit from my testing today. I think I'll take ready move testing to abyssea. I don't think the capped pdif from fighting little mobs will be that worthwhile. Larger sample size, faster tp gain, and stat modifiers from atma will be more helpful imo.

for any other bsts interested in contributing, I believe we want to check & show the following:

Physical spells:
TP return (multihit?)
Can it crit?
Stat modifiers
damage variation via tp (Ferine manoplas +2)

Magical:
stat modifiers
damage variation via TP
(I think magical is best option for testing monster correlation damage changes as well)


If we can find this information.. it might lead to some more useful application of atma and ready moves from pets. its at least interesting.

OH! long post, but before I forget, my results from testing spur improvement from Ferine ocreae +2. I tested this on both merle and louise. the Louise testing was easier, but my findings do not agree w/ wiki.

Louise:
8.3 tp/hit
spur (no ocreae) 9.9 tp/hit 1.6 tp/hit increase is ~20% (this is more like store tp 3)
Spur + Ocreae +2 10.7 tp/hit 2.4 tp/hit increase is ~29% There is not a store tp trait this high!

Merle
4.8 tp hit
spur (no ocreae) 5.7 tp/hit 0.9 tp/hit increase is ~19% increase (.96 would be 20% which indicates its truncated)
spur + Ocreae +2 6.3 tp/hit 1.3 tp/hit increase is 31% increase

I have not tested if Ferine ocreae +2 need to stay equipped for the effect to be active or not yet.
I do not have any other pet store tp gear (fidelity mantle, or appropriate desultor tassets augments) to compare. However it looks to me like spur is giving pet store tp 3 and a higher tier of it w/ ocreae +2. I guess the store tp trait on wiki hasn't been updated since the level cap increase... have sam confirmed if they got tier V yet at level 90? I would expect a 30% tp return increase to be tier 5.


edit: also if someone w/ ocreae +1 could test this? I'm guessing it will make it a store tp IV




Edited, Apr 19th 2011 2:31am by Xilk
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#55 Apr 20 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Default
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Hiya Xilk,
Thanks again for your work and advice, you are right about the NM being MM and I have used Dipper with good results thanks !
After only 3 fights I obtained my Spurrer Beret which of course has Pet+5% Haste so will let you know if it gives any noticeable results.
I'd like to help some way with tests but being an xbox user am at a loss as to how ?
I also need to get my Ferine+1 set yet so could only test with my current Perle set.
Thanks again !
Jon
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#56 Apr 28 2011 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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HA!!

I just revisited this information because I figured it was time to resume testing on determining attack values for pets. I have really not been looking forward to tweaking my attack values and gathering data from mobs all over the place.. .however, I also realized we have a tool which smn does not :D

Kegsay, in his wonderful testing, could not establish data for how much Damage + Fstr increases/level on smn. His tests only show level 75 avatar vs level 37 avatar. (He could repeat for level 45 avatar and level 90 avatar now, but its not a large sample or a very clear pattern). BST however CAN test this!

Using Dawn mulsum and Bookmarku's tables we can (tediously) test pet level wherever we are. (We can know what % and hp value each one cures, which is enough to see max hp for each called pet). So we can determine which level each pet is.

An easier method is, we can use level 75 jugs for testing and regather samples w/ each increment of Beast Affinity. This means we can test level 75, 77, 79, 81, 83, and 85 jugs. This should be a decent enough sample to see if there is a clear pattern in the growth of the Base D + fSTR term.
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#57 Apr 29 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just bumping this to let those interested know that I've updated the original post to keep status on what we've found and what questions remain. Please let me know if you feel something is incorrect, or should be added.

It would also be nice if someone can double check delays.

I had another small indicator that the base damage + fSTR (really same term for pets as they do not change weapons) will be the same by job & level.
When I went back to test merle and get tp/hit for fargann, I had a crit hit of 537 while using fargann. This was the highest damage I've seen from any of these tests. Crit hit bonus being an 8% increase to damage, indicates that the highest possible hits from broncha or shasra at level 90 should have gone up to 538. I only saw 536 in my test. It seems my samples should be a bit larger individually. the 537 from fargann indicates a max hit of 498 when removing the crit hit bonus. this would take Fargann to the same Base Damage rating of 118. That matches broncha and shasra which are confirmed as level 90 pets. So, i got a level 90 fargann on that last one. If the base rating goes up 1 every 2 levels, then nazuna would reach this at level 90 also.

I hope to test how level effects base damage rating this weekend using carrie and beast affinity merits.

Edited, Apr 29th 2011 7:18am by Xilk
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#58 May 03 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did some testing with Bubble Curtain - used Ducal Guard and fought clumps of Caoineag. Tested each condition 3 times for accuracy (was mostly using recast timers and log info to figure out the duration).

100% TP - 3:00
100% TP w/Manoplas +2 - 3:45
204% TP - 4:30
300% TP - 6:00
300% TP w/Manoplas +2 - 6:00

The effect can overwrite itself (tanked many Caoineag's spells for 20 mins+ reusing Bubble Curtain at 300% TP every 3 minutes). Seems to be every 50 TP after the initial 100 gives 45 extra seconds (assuming Manoplas +2 give 50 bonus TP).

Edited, May 3rd 2011 2:52am by Bookmarku
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#59 May 03 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Very nice! I've added the info to wiki.

btw, I also updated the stout servant section on wiki.

if you look at the notes, initial testing showed stout servant at 5% pdt
stout servant +1 from quijotes +1/2 took this up to 6.7% at level 85.
at level 90 we get 6.7% even w/out quijotes
w/ quijotes we get up to 9%

so bst gets tier 2 somewhere between level 85 and 90
I'm hoping we get tier 3 by 99 :P I would expect a 12% w/ quijotes then :P

Edited, May 3rd 2011 9:54am by Xilk
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#60 May 03 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Seems to be every 50 TP after the initial 100 gives 45 extra seconds (assuming Manoplas +2 give 50 bonus TP).


I tested with wild carrot and found it capping out at 200% with gloves, which points to it being a 100TP bonus, so if you did the same with bubble curtain, you should see it cap out at 6:00 with 200% TP.

Actually, it would be nice to get confirmation. I rarely have time to do a lot of testing.



Edited, May 3rd 2011 10:24pm by blowfin
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#61 May 03 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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blowfin wrote:
Quote:
Seems to be every 50 TP after the initial 100 gives 45 extra seconds (assuming Manoplas +2 give 50 bonus TP).


I tested with wild carrot and found it capping out at 200% with gloves, which points to it being a 100TP bonus, so if you did the same with bubble curtain, you should see it cap out at 6:00 with 200% TP.

Actually, it would be nice to get confirmation. I rarely have time to do a lot of testing.


Ah, ok! Well, I went out and retested, popped another CC with Ducal Guard, fought about 6 of those Caoineags at one time so they'd be casting constant spells to check when the 0 DMG was no longer appearing. Here's the timestamp info from screencaps:

@206% TP w/Manoplas+2
56:48 - CourrierCarrie uses Bubble Curtain
2:15 - The Caoineag casts Water IV; CC takes 235 points of damage.

So that Bubble Curtain lasted 5:27 total (probably actually was 5:20 or 5:25, can't be sure which).

@300% TP
9:28 - CourrierCarrie uses Bubble Curtain
15:35 - The Caoineag casts Aero IV; CC takes 249 points of damage.

6:07 total. At the 15:27 timestamp, Aero IV did 0 damage, so I know that the Bubble Curtain effect was still up at the 5:59 duration mark.
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#62 May 03 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm, i'm not sure what direction that pushes things in, heh.

Regardless, I guess it's about time I posted these results anyway...

You know, looking at these again maybe I convinced myself of something that didn't exist. It certainly looks like wild carrot caps out at around 200% TP with the gloves, then again it looks like Wild carrot caps out before 300% TP without the gloves anyway. We seem to be seeing a jump in tiers from the gloves, maybe nothing more than that. Anyone have any insight from these? Probably time to rethink what is actually happening.

With Gloves 
 
TP  HP Cured 
115 356 
116 356 
119 356 
142 390 
169 424 
170 441 
188 475 
206 492 
207 492 
218 543 
243 543 
300 543 
 
Without Gloves 
 
TP    HP Cured 
122   339 
129   356 
131   339 
138   356 
159   373 
176   441 
179   407 
190   441 
207   475 
263   543 
300   543 


Edited, May 4th 2011 1:37am by blowfin
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#63 May 03 2011 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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blowfin wrote:
Hmmm, i'm not sure what direction that pushes things in, heh.

Regardless, I guess it's about time I posted these results anyway...

You know, looking at these again maybe I convinced myself of something that didn't exist. It certainly looks like wild carrot caps out at around 200% TP with the gloves, then again it looks like Wild carrot caps out before 300% TP without the gloves anyway. We seem to be seeing a jump in tiers from the gloves, maybe nothing more than that. Anyone have any insight from these? Probably time to rethink what is actually happening.

With Gloves 
 
TP  HP Cured 
115 356 
116 356 
119 356 
142 390 
169 424 
170 441 
188 475 
206 492 
207 492 
218 543 
243 543 
300 543 
 
Without Gloves 
 
TP    HP Cured 
122   339 
129   356 
131   339 
138   356 
159   373 
176   441 
179   407 
190   441 
207   475 
263   543 
300   543 


Edited, May 4th 2011 1:37am by blowfin



What level is the lulush you are spawning? Do you get the same numbers w/ a different lulush?

I'm sure the tp modifies how much is cured, but it probably multiplies by a stat that lulush has, or by level. If its a stat... atma could let us modify it and perhaps get bigger cures... that would be pretty cool. (high -pdt lulush who curaga bombs hmm might be able to blood tank decently that way...:P) I would guess at MND, VIT, or CHR most likely possibilities IF a stat modifies this.
I've not done extensive testing w/ wild carrot, but I do remember the best I got w/ one lulush as 527 hp restored. I'm guessing that lulush was a level lower than yours.

I can't test right now (stolen card canceled before this months payment and I don't have another "verified by visa" or "secure code" card until then send new one >.<) but I'll plot your numbers on a chart...
Frankly I want more samples.

The test you have w/ the gloves seems more consistently increasing. but w/out the gloves, some of your samples have more hp restored w/ less tp. I'll be adding an /echo tp command in my spellcast next time I can test. (I've got a nice little command to swap in pet+ for my ready moves now :P)

I know I've seen consistent hp so It doesn't seem like there should be a random element to wild carrot. :(
then again w/ glyph axe, we should be able to get samples from every tp amount if we really want to.

I'll tinker around w/ your data to see if I can find a deeper pattern... we really want hp restored for a level 90 pet compared to hp restored for level 88 or 89 pet at 100% tp, 300% tp, and wherever the changing points are. The 169 tp and 170 tp are a really great turning point to have. 1 tp change and the hp restored actually changed.

Getting these number for both gloves and non-gloves... its actually possible to make a perfect model for how Wild carrot works. Probably give a more clear picture of how ferine manoplas +1/2 work also. (probably aymur also)


Edited, May 4th 2011 1:55am by Xilk
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#64 May 04 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What level is the lulush you are spawning? Do you get the same numbers w/ a different lulush?


That was all from the same pet. Maybe days have some effect on it too? I didn't record what game day it was unfortunately.

Quote:
I'll be adding an /echo tp command in my spellcast next time I can test.


I did that with all of those results so they should be fairly accurate. There is always a danger that your pet might get in another hit after the echo though I guess. It's hard to be totally sure that it doesn't happen sometimes I think.
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#65 May 05 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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From some testing this morning, I found out a couple of things about Wild Carrot:

I went over to Misareaux Coast[A] as 90BST/DNC and summoned a level 89 LuckyLulush. After determining that the max Wild Carrot at 300% TP healed for 535 HP, I tried to adjust that value using Stat boosting atmas (tried INT, VIT, CHR, AGI, MAB, MAcc...) but the value always stayed the same. Then re-examining blowfin's data, it looked like Wild Carrot was healing based on HP percentage - he must have summoned a level 90 LL, since 12.5% of 4344 HP is 543 HP, and similarly for my level 89 LL, 535 HP is 12.5% of 4280 Max HP. So the data ended up looking like this:

300 HP @100% TP (7% of total health)
351 HP @150% TP (8.2% of total health)
401 HP @176% TP (9.37% of total health)
434 HP @200% TP (10.1% of total health)
451 HP @213% TP (10.5% of total health)
484 HP @252% TP (11.3% of total health)
535 HP @300% TP (12.5% of total health)

I used a Glyph Axe and left my pet idle so that there wouldn't be any changes in TP while the move was going off (I'd sic him on moving targets so he wouldn't even be in range to strike them while the move was being executed). So the amount of healing should scale like so:

Level     @100%TP  @200%TP  @300%TP 
 88        295 HP   425 HP   527 HP 
 89        300 HP   434 HP   535 HP 
 90        304 HP   438 HP   543 HP


Well, looking at the other set of data, it doesn't work perfectly... But it's a start. It would be nice to summon the level 88 and 90 versions personally to test and get concrete numbers, but haven't gotten around to it yet. :x

Taking blowfin's data using the Manoplas+2, his 115% TP Wild Carrot healed for 8.2% of LL's total health, so it gave the move (approximately) 40~50 TP. Yes?


Edited, May 5th 2011 11:37am by Bookmarku
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#66 May 05 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Nice job Bookmarku :D

it looks like it certainly caps at 1/8 of max hp. It might be possible to increase the cap by using hp + atma.

Dark blade
Sanguine scythe +20% hp
Ebon Hoof +30% hp
Zenith +10%
Impregnable tower
1000 needles
bushin
royal lineage

It might still have a different component for how it scales. Its not linear growth by tp.
If so, you would be restoring 1.125 hp/tp and this doesn't hold for the test values you have.
Which makes me think it is not entirely hp and tp based on how much is restored.

Also, Blowfin's test showed that it caps out before 300% tp for level 90 pet. It caps sooner w/ manoplas, but it still caps before 300% w/out manoplas.

Also, Its harder to test, but I think it is not the same hp restored for different party members. Like a waltz it might depend on target's stats like vit. I think I remember it curing more hp on me than on lulush several times.

Hmmm. btw, this can also be a quicker/easier way to test lulush's level ^.^ using familiar might improve cap also.
also looks like we can project that level 99 pet will cure 615 hp at cap, and 583 hp for level 95 pet.

if hp+ atma helps... we could be looking at 650 and 700 capped cures pretty easily. but w/ max 3x hp+ atma, you only double your hp pool at most. (lolz 9k hp pet and 6k hp master is kinda sic funny... won't help dd though :P)

might be worthwhile to double check how many charges wild carrot uses.. I know it says 3, but it was only using 2 when it first came out. I never checked if they ever changed that or not. rr + sanguine scythe looks really interesting for lulush.

Edited, May 5th 2011 2:10pm by Xilk

Edited, May 5th 2011 2:22pm by Xilk
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#67 May 05 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, checked out some of those factors for Wild Carrot. :D

Went back to Abyssea and did tests without atma to check more % values. I spawned a level 90 LL and got the following data:

441 HP @200%
526 HP @200% w/Manoplas+2
509 HP @235%
509 HP @240%
509 HP @244%
526 HP @245%
526 HP @246%
543 HP @250%
543 HP @300%

So from this it seems that the TP bonus from Manoplas+2 is 45.

Also, checked on HP+ atma (used Sanguine Scythe):

678 HP @300% TP

Edit: For the level 90 LL, the HP healing tiers are 17 HP each, from 339 to 543. That's 12 tiers, and the max amount does seem to show up at 250%.

Edited, May 5th 2011 10:37pm by Bookmarku
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#68 May 05 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Great info as always.

Looks like Sanguine Scythe probably increase hp by 25% instead of the listed 20% on wiki.
I've been toying w/ the numbers you have, and I've not yet found a good model.

What amount of tp can restore 339 hp?
your samples show a 5% span for 526 HP restored, at least a 9% tp span for 509 HP restored, and at least 5 increments of 17 hp between 200% TP and 235% TP.

It is not linear progression on TP. It might not even be parabolic, which further indicates to me there is another variable.

I also really think it restores different HP per target. That is easiest to test between lulush and the player (How have you been reducing hp to cure? just fighting stuff? to take damage?) It would be best to test w/ another player in the party (preferably different race/job).

If the target's stat DOES affect hp restored, then we could work out a model. It could also tell us stat information for lulush.

I don't suppose you had familiar on when you used Sanguine Scythe?
45 tp bonus has been pointed to before for manoplas. Its good to have another source of confirmation.
In some of the Discussion regarding it, some players complained that "why didn't they just say, PET TP bonus" regarding the description. It might just be SE enjoying the mysteriousness... or there might be more to it. Specific to sic/ready.. I wonder about a reduction in recast OR a reduction in charges used :)
Its just another idea I'd like to test, but I'm sure you can see the advantages. (save TP atma would become VERY good for bst if this were so).

Another idea you might be interested in. Critical attack bonus is capped at 50% for players, or so I hear. I don't know if its capped for pets. Afterall, pdt is not capped on pets at 50% like it is for players.
Using both RR & Sanguine Scythe should tell us. Our war pets already have 8% from traits. if it all stacks up to 68% increase in damage from crit hits, that would be quite awesome. as crit hits are best way for pets to get closest to pdif cap which is much higher than player's cap). If it DOES cap, then I'm also toying w/ a few ideas about atma combinations... forgo RR for Sanguine scythe + gnarled horn and maybe omnipotent or lions... its a strange/interesting combination.

I'm rather interested in a new approach to some NM's using lulush to tank by spamming wild carrot. It might allow a more aggressive approach to abyssea NM's that AoE alot. 2x bst/dnc using RR, Sanguine Scythe, and 1 more, either defensive or offensive atma could probably kill quite quickly and restore alot of hp. Between the high crit damage and the massive Curaga's, bst/lulush might tank well, even for a party maybe.

Thank you for all your testing. I intend to test this myself when I get back online, if you dont' get to it first.

Edited, May 6th 2011 1:38am by Xilk

Edited, May 6th 2011 1:58am by Xilk

Edited, May 6th 2011 2:08am by Xilk
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#69 May 06 2011 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the feedback. :)

Xilk wrote:
What amount of tp can restore 339 hp?


Ah, I took that value from blowfin's data, forgetting that I had predicted an even lower tier (should be ~305 HP restored @100% TP, which is approximately 7% of max HP for a level 90 LL).

Xilk wrote:
I also really think it restores different HP per target. That is easiest to test between lulush and the player (How have you been reducing hp to cure? just fighting stuff? to take damage?) It would be best to test w/ another player in the party (preferably different race/job).

If the target's stat DOES affect hp restored, then we could work out a model. It could also tell us stat information for lulush.


I link a bunch of spiders in Mis[A] to lower pet health and then use the Conflux to warp away and lose hate. I can get a number of test samples done before I have to lower LL's health again.

About different HP restoration among races/jobs, the only time I ever see a different amount of HP restored is when someone is close to full HP so the log only records how much the difference was. But heck if I know, I'll test it out!

Xilk wrote:
I don't suppose you had familiar on when you used Sanguine Scythe?


Nope, didn't have Familiar on.

I'll do another batch of tests for Wild Carrot and post'em here afterwards. :D Thanks for the insights.

Edited, May 6th 2011 4:54am by Bookmarku
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#70 May 06 2011 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
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yeah, i know I've seen differences when it cured either pet or myself up to 100%. that way it doesn't cure for the full amount. Thats why I'm not sure if it cures different amounts/target or not. I didn't gather data methodically so I don't know. Upon reading the tests here (and thinking how waltzes work) it makes me very curious.

Your findings of the relationship to pet hp and the 17 hp/increment improvements are already great finds/very helpful. We found out how to make bigger cures w/ it.

If more ready moves are related to hp... familiar might actually be more useful than we thought.
I think I'll try some pares w/ and w/out familiar as well. See if there is any improvement in attack/def. can kill the myth whether its true or false.
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#71 May 06 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, wrapped up testing on Wild Carrot for a level 88 LuckyLulush. Using Glyph Axe and TP echoes to confirm the percentages I came up with the following data that explicitly determines the thresholds for each healing tier:
296 HP @100% TP 
296 HP @101% TP 
296 HP @102% TP 
296 HP @103% TP 
296 HP @104% TP 
--------------- Tier 1, 5% TP span 
312 HP @105% TP 
312 HP @110% TP 
312 HP @115% TP 
312 HP @116% TP 
312 HP @120% TP 
312 HP @121% TP 
--------------- Tier 2, 17% TP span 
329 HP @122% TP 
329 HP @137% TP 
--------------- Tier 3, 16% TP span 
345 HP @138% TP 
345 HP @152% TP 
345 HP @153% TP 
345 HP @154% TP 
--------------- Tier 4, 17% TP span 
362 HP @155% TP 
362 HP @164% TP 
--------------- Tier 5, 10% TP span 
378 HP @165% TP 
378 HP @166% TP 
378 HP @167% TP 
378 HP @168% TP 
378 HP @169% TP 
378 HP @170% TP 
378 HP @172% TP 
378 HP @173% TP 
378 HP @174% TP 
--------------- Tier 6, 10% TP span 
395 HP @175% TP 
395 HP @176% TP 
395 HP @179% TP 
395 HP @180% TP 
395 HP @181% TP 
395 HP @183% TP 
395 HP @184% TP 
--------------- Tier 7, 10% TP span 
411 HP @185% TP 
411 HP @186% TP 
411 HP @194% TP 
--------------- Tier 8, 10% TP span 
428 HP @195% TP 
428 HP @204% TP 
--------------- Tier 9, 10% TP span 
444 HP @205% TP 
444 HP @214% TP 
--------------- Tier 10, 10% TP span 
461 HP @215% TP 
461 HP @218% TP 
461 HP @221% TP 
461 HP @224% TP 
--------------- Tier 11, 10% TP span 
477 HP @225% TP 
477 HP @226% TP 
477 HP @234% TP 
--------------- Tier 12, 10% TP span 
494 HP @235% TP 
494 HP @244% TP 
--------------- Tier 13, 10% TP span 
510 HP @245% TP 
510 HP @252% TP 
510 HP @254% TP 
--------------- Tier 14, 10% TP span 
527 HP @255% TP 
527 HP @300% TP 
--------------- Tier 15 (Final), 45% TP span

Knowing that the healing proceeded in tiers, it made it easier to recognize when a pattern emerged after stumbling blindly through the first 100~204% groups. I didn't imagine that the tiers would emerge as such, building gradually at first and then more steadily in regular intervals. So knowing the exact % enabled for a more accurate Manoplas+2 test, which revealed that the TP bonus is, in fact, 50.
 TP      w/Manoplas +2    Equivalent To 
144%        411 HP            194% 
145%        428 HP            195% 
146%        428 HP            196% 
154%        428 HP            204% 
155%        444 HP            205%

Also, I tested Wild Carrot at 300% while using Familiar.

With Familiar:
579 HP @300% TP

So if a Familiar'd level 88 LL has +10% HP it should have 4637.6 (rounded down) hit points. And rightly so, 579 is roughly 12.5% of that new max HP.

(Also, yeah, Wild Carrot is still listed as being 3 charges while only actually using 2.)

Edited, May 6th 2011 10:00am by Bookmarku

Edited, May 6th 2011 7:32pm by Bookmarku
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#72 May 06 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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:D perfect :D

That is a lot of work.

I didn't expect the tiers to change strictly from 16.5 tp increments to 10 tp increments. I thought they would gradually shrink.

There are some interesting points and interesting holes.
I find it particularly interesting that the cap comes earlier at level 90 than it does at level 88. I expected this, as the earlier tests seem to indicate so.

HP restored = FLOOR(MaxPetHP/8 - (level - 22)/4 * tp tier)

The hp increment for level 88 is 16.5 hp/tp tier
for level 89 it is 16.75 hp /tp tier (I confirmed this could NOT be 16.5 from the samples we have)
for level 90 it is 17 hp/tp tier
you just floor it for the final hp amount
You could express this hp tier as (level - 22)/4 (this easily holds for these 3 levels, and probably a safe bet for many levels. However, this very likely could be a trait value for lulush). I'm guessing this level -22 term I'm using here is actually pet VIT. I'm hoping Blowfin can verify it by telling us if he was using Atma of the Mounted Champion for his tests. Or we can try it. I think its a stat even if its not VIT, but here is why: if you look at a hume warrior w/out a support job, his VIT is pretty close to this at these levels. Also, The data samples that blowfin and Bookmarku have provided all match into the hp tiers for the level of the pet. However the TP tiers do not match at all.

I think that wild carrot, like healing breath, is capped by pet's max HP. However I think its modified by other things. This could explain a more rapid growth to cap that we see as level increases. It might also have a relation to how much tp is needed to go to the next tier, as it is a bit different on the different pet levels.

I don't know how to calculate the TP tier's quite yet. We need to compare tp tiers/level for this. We need to know the boundaries on another level pet.
However, the tp tiers are not static, they are adjusting as well.

The level 90 sample is not as large, but it does show us that the top 2x tiers only span 5tp each before the next tier is 10 tp again.

So, we'll need a few more things to finish nailing it down :P (which I feel kinda bad saying, since the samples have been great so far).

I know Bookmarku checked for many stats if they increased the max HP restored, which only HP does, but I'm betting if you use Mounted Champion for the vit, you'll see a higher amount of HP cured for the NON-capped tp ranges. You should be able to get to capped hp restored, at lower tp values.

We could also run tests to find the tiers for hp restored when you have hp+ atma on. We would start from a much higher cap and see if the same number of tiers exist or if the tp/tier shortens and we get more tp tiers. there is room for either.

Edited, May 6th 2011 7:56pm by Xilk
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#73 May 06 2011 at 10:30 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Taking blowfin's data using the Manoplas+2


All my tests were done with the +1 gloves.
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#74 May 07 2011 at 2:36 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:
I think that wild carrot, like healing breath, is capped by pet's max HP. However I think its modified by other things. This could explain a more rapid growth to cap that we see as level increases. It might also have a relation to how much tp is needed to go to the next tier, as it is a bit different on the different pet levels.

I don't know how to calculate the TP tier's quite yet. We need to compare tp tiers/level for this. We need to know the boundaries on another level pet.
However, the tp tiers are not static, they are adjusting as well.

The level 90 sample is not as large, but it does show us that the top 2x tiers only span 5tp each before the next tier is 10 tp again.

So, we'll need a few more things to finish nailing it down :P (which I feel kinda bad saying, since the samples have been great so far).

I know Bookmarku checked for many stats if they increased the max HP restored, which only HP does, but I'm betting if you use Mounted Champion for the vit, you'll see a higher amount of HP cured for the NON-capped tp ranges. You should be able to get to capped hp restored, at lower tp values.

We could also run tests to find the tiers for hp restored when you have hp+ atma on. We would start from a much higher cap and see if the same number of tiers exist or if the tp/tier shortens and we get more tp tiers. there is room for either.


Much work to be done then! :D

Ok, here's some new info from a test I just ran on level 88 LuckyLulush to see if VIT affected the tiers or the amount healed. I used Adamantine (VIT+20) and Echoes (VIT+20) so I wouldn't have to fight off the regen of Mounted Champion. So with VIT+40 on my pet I got the following data:
312 HP @121% TP 
329 HP @122% TP 
 
510 HP @254% TP 
527 HP @255% TP 
 
527 HP @300% TP

So the tiers and healing amounts went unaffected, oh well.

I'll start working on TP tiers for level 89 LuckyLulush and edit this later. My bad about the +1 gloves, blowfin. Do you suppose +1 gloves have a lesser effect on TP bonus? Anyways, back to work...
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#75 May 07 2011 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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blowfin wrote:
Quote:
Taking blowfin's data using the Manoplas+2


All my tests were done with the +1 gloves.


The test numbers I considered were the ones w/out gloves.

you have a few samples that show lower hp returned at higher tp. I think they are good samples. They all fall exactly in the hp tiers. If you had, for example, cured up to max hp, this would not be so.

In all of these tests, is it the hp restored for lulush? your player? or both?

Quote:
Ok, here's some new info from a test I just ran on level 88 LuckyLulush to see if VIT affected the tiers or the amount healed. I used Adamantine (VIT+20) and Echoes (VIT+20) so I wouldn't have to fight off the regen of Mounted Champion. So with VIT+40 on my pet I got the following data:


thanx for busing my myth. Good call on using different atma for the vit.

I imagine using winged gloom would help keep hp down for curing :P.
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#76 May 07 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:
I imagine using winged gloom would help keep hp down for curing :P.


Ah, great tip, thank you. ^^

Edit: I performed a similar test to the one for determining healing tiers and applied it to a level 89 LuckyLulush. I assumed that the tiers might be slightly different but I decided to use the tier data from the level 88 test as a starting point. I only used Ducal Guard atma and came up with the following info:

300 HP @100% TP 
300 HP @104% TP 
--------------- Tier 1, 5% TP span 
317 HP @105% TP 
317 HP @121% TP 
--------------- Tier 2, 17% TP span 
334 HP @122% TP 
334 HP @137% TP 
--------------- Tier 3, 16% TP span 
351 HP @138% TP 
351 HP @154% TP 
--------------- Tier 4, 17% TP span 
367 HP @155% TP 
367 HP @164% TP 
--------------- Tier 5, 10% TP span 
384 HP @165% TP 
384 HP @174% TP 
--------------- Tier 6, 10% TP span 
401 HP @175% TP 
401 HP @184% TP 
--------------- Tier 7, 10% TP span 
417 HP @185% TP 
417 HP @194% TP 
--------------- Tier 8, 10% TP span 
434 HP @195% TP 
434 HP @204% TP 
--------------- Tier 9, 10% TP span 
451 HP @205% TP 
451 HP @214% TP 
--------------- Tier 10, 10% TP span 
468 HP @215% TP 
468 HP @224% TP 
--------------- Tier 11, 10% TP span 
484 HP @225% TP 
484 HP @234% TP 
--------------- Tier 12, 10% TP span 
501 HP @235% TP 
501 HP @244% TP 
--------------- Tier 13, 10% TP span 
518 HP @245% TP 
518 HP @254% TP 
--------------- Tier 14, 10% TP span 
535 HP @255% TP 
535 HP @300% TP 
--------------- Tier 15 (Final), 45% TP span


The thresholds were identical in terms of the TP required to jump to the next tier. I'll work on the level 90 data, but I feel like it will be identical as well. If old data has any discrepancies, it could be due to unaccounted TP gain from hitting or getting hit, or still having a Glyph Axe equipped or using Manoplas+1/+2 when it was thought that they were de-equipped, etc.

Edited, May 7th 2011 6:34am by Bookmarku
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#77 May 07 2011 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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Here is the link for my worksheet.

This has a list of all the samples Bookmarku & blowfin have published. As well as a list of projected hp tiers and tp tiers for different level lulush's.

We could also use level sync to get a luluch at lower levels for comparison, but I'm really not sure if that would be necessary yet.

I think its very interesting that the level 88 tp tiers use 16.5 tp intervals at the bottom. makes me wish I could see wht they are below 100% tp, because it seems to me it would continue if you could perform it at lower tp levels.

edit:
nice! you are quick w/ the new data.
I'm not as surprised that the level 89 data has the same tp tiers. We did see the difference in the level 90 data from you level 90 test. I'm thinking the 16.75 is used again in the level 89 formula which is why we may not see it in tp tiers, when we can clearly see it in hp tiers. the 17 in level 90 would make the difference much more clear.

I wrote up a projection for using Sanguine Scythe w/ a level 90 lulush as well.

Edited, May 7th 2011 6:18am by Xilk
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#78 May 07 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Here's the data for level 90 LuckyLulush when using Wild Carrot:
305 HP @100% TP 
305 HP @104% TP 
--------------- Tier 1, 5% TP span 
322 HP @105% TP 
322 HP @120% TP 
--------------- Tier 2, 16% Tp span 
339 HP @121% TP 
339 HP @138% TP 
--------------- Tier 3, 18% TP span 
356 HP @139% TP 
356 HP @140% TP 
356 HP @154% TP 
--------------- Tier 4, 16% TP span 
373 HP @155% TP 
373 HP @164% TP 
--------------- Tier 5, 10% TP span 
390 HP @165% TP 
390 HP @174% TP 
--------------- Tier 6, 10% TP span 
407 HP @175% TP 
407 HP @184% TP 
--------------- Tier 7, 10% TP span 
424 HP @185% TP 
424 HP @194% TP 
--------------- Tier 8, 10% TP span 
441 HP @195% TP 
441 HP @204% TP 
--------------- Tier 9, 10% TP span 
458 HP @205% TP 
458 HP @214% TP 
--------------- Tier 10, 10% TP span 
475 HP @215% TP 
475 HP @224% TP 
--------------- Tier 11, 10% TP span 
492 HP @225% TP 
492 HP @234% TP 
--------------- Tier 12, 10% TP span 
509 HP @235% TP 
509 HP @244% TP 
--------------- Tier 13, 10% Tp span 
526 HP @245% TP 
526 HP @249% TP 
526 HP @251% TP 
526 HP @254% TP 
--------------- Tier 14, 10% TP span 
543 HP @255% TP 
543 HP @300% TP 
--------------- Tier 15 (Final), 45% TP span

There were a couple percentages early on that shifted compared to their level 88 and 89 counterparts, so there's an 18% TP span tier in this series. Looking back on my older tests, I must've messed up a couple samples, but now all TP values from 100~300% should be accounted for.

I also ran a test on a level 88 LL using Familiar+Sanguine Scythe+Zenith to see if tiers thresholds were affected:
448 HP @100% TP 
448 HP @104% TP 
473 HP @105% TP 
 
772 HP @254% TP 
797 HP @255% TP 
797 HP @300% TP


Edited, May 7th 2011 11:55am by Bookmarku
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#79 May 07 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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thank you for all the testing.
I'll keep working w/ the tp tiers. I'm still rather stumped though.

you also showed that the hp+ bonues from atma and familiar do not add up to each other, the multiply for a greater effect.
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#80 Jun 01 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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Not pet-related but...

Here's some Cloudsplitter info that I believe shows the Fencer bonus is 30 TP.

Fought Elder Goobbues on Lightsday/Darksday/Firesday in the Boyahda Tree (no weather present for the three hours I was there) as 90 BST/DNC. Equipped 85 Farsha with Pallas's Shield for the Fencer testing and then off-handed a OA2~4 axe for the dual wield portion.

Cloudsplitter Equipment Stats:

90 Beastmaster/45 Dancer

STR 86+49
DEX 81-8
VIT 83
AGI 70
INT 68
MND 71+32
CHR 81+8

MAB+5

Cloudsplitter, w/Fencer:
 TP      DMG 
100%     834 
101%     836 
102%     838 
103%     841 
105%     845 
106%     847 
107%     850 
109%     856 
115%     869 
118%     878 
122%     888 
129%     905 
141%     933 
143%     937 
149%     951 
150%     955 
153%     961 
164%     989 
173%    1007 
174%    1011 
182%    1026 
191%    1045 
199%    1059 
202%    1065 
205%    1071 
207%    1075 
212%    1084 
235%    1128 
249%    1155 
254%    1165 
267%    1190 
270%    1196 
275%    1196 
286%    1196 
300%    1196

Cloudsplitter while Dual Wielding:
 TP      DMG 
100%     760 
101%     766 
103%     770 
104%     772 
106%     775 
108%     781 
109%     782 
110%     787 
112%     792 
124%     820 
135%     845 
147%     876 
151%     884 
162%     911 
168%     926 
172%     937 
192%     983 
200%    1002 
214%    1030 
222%    1045 
240%    1081 
268%    1135 
271%    1140 
281%    1158 
284%    1165 
290%    1177 
292%    1181 
297%    1190 
300%    1196


The Cloudsplitter damage caps around 270% in the Fencer tests and also the 267% TP equates in damage to the 297% TP WS from the non-Fencer tests, which points to Fencer being a TP bonus of 30.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 8:27pm by Bookmarku
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#81 Jun 02 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is a good test. The testing done on warrior at level 76 showed a 40 TP bonus (from wiki talk page). We already knew there were different tiers however. This tells us what the level of a 90 bst is.

Also, its a good thing to remember, that our pets have a bonus from fencer....Actually this make me think abit..

Our pets are mostly war, and they have fencer. I confirmed this in their crit hit rates from my earlier testing.

I did not consider tp bonus from fencer when trying to get a formula for wild carrot. Carrie doesn't have fencer though, so the bubble curtain tp tests are right on. This is probably why wild carrot is capping at 255% tp, and 100% tp seems to be in the middle of a tier.

Yes, BG wiki has a little more info on fencer. level 90 war testing shows 45 tp bonus which is exactly what we have seen w/ wild carrot... Actually this could also explain differences from level 88 or 89 lulush and level 90 if the last tier of fencer is right on level 90.

The tiers for fencer are not clearly determined yet. Probably because people are already high level and level so quickly. BG lists 3 tiers, but this test indicates that there are 4. It also seems a much larger gap in BG wiki between what is listed as tier 1 and teir 2. I would say they completely skipped tier 2 and there are actually 4 tiers, and bst has tier 2 by 90, war has tier 4 by 90.


Edited, Jun 2nd 2011 4:59am by Xilk
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#82 Jun 06 2011 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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I've been running my parser while killing a bunch of luison in la theine for axe trial.

I can definitely say that our intimidation rate has gone up since that update. w/ 5/5 merits for killer effects, I was getting 15% average intimidation. Now I'm always at 20%.

More pertinant to this thread is that I recorded merle having a 15% counter rate. Wiki lists Mnk getting counter II at level 80, but it also lists 13% as the base counter rate. I don't know where that testing is. I can confirm Merle has the 2nd tier as expected by a mnk of this level.

Interestingly, I only see 5% double attack from Shasra (and I am usually wearing ferine necklace)
I see 13% from louise and its really hard to tell w/ merle because of h2h and kick attacks. I don't know mnk calculations very well.

as far as DPS goes, Shasra is much higher than louise or merle.
I was usuing: stronghold, Razed ruins, and Gnarled Horn for atma. (yes I did consider the 10% counter from atma for testing, actual rate including atma was 25% counter rate). w/ this atma Louise was showing 83% crit rate while shasra was~75 and merle around 70 which matches earlier findings about crit rate.

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#83 Jun 06 2011 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Is your increase in Killer proc rate reflected by the increase in damage from Ferine Body +2?

I'm going to try to test these Atma soon using Ferine Body +2 and /BLM, so it'd be good if I can be sure of the base:
Lizard Killer: Atma of the Impenetrable
Arcana Killer: Atma of the Hybrid Beast
Dragon Killer: Atma of the Dragon Rider
Beast Killer: Atma of the Beast King

I figure I'll go with Merciless Matriarch and Ultimate, Ascetic's Tonic, then have my mule pull a monster. One nuke for baseline (or until one goes unresisted), Conflux and add an appropriate Atma, ES -> Another nuke.

Another interesting piece that's maybe worth testing the potency on is Melaco Mittens. I'll probably try to test that and Fowling Earring at the same time, assuming I can ever catch a Melaco on AH.


Completely random, but what merits did you pick?

Edit: Thought you might be interested in this -
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Armada_Sollerets
Keep in mind that the upper limits on those stats may only be available on the HQ Armor (Armada vs. Adaman). Currently the testing community on BG seems to believe that all the possible high frequency stats get a cap increase of +1 on HQ base Armors. For more information on how it works, click to the Tatters and Scrap Synergy page and it should answer all your questions.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 1:46pm by Byrthnoth
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#84 Jun 06 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Is your increase in Killer proc rate reflected by the increase in damage from Ferine Body +2?

I'm going to try to test these Atma soon using Ferine Body +2 and /BLM, so it'd be good if I can be sure of the base:
Lizard Killer: Atma of the Impenetrable
Arcana Killer: Atma of the Hybrid Beast
Dragon Killer: Atma of the Dragon Rider
Beast Killer: Atma of the Beast King

I figure I'll go with Merciless Matriarch and Ultimate, Ascetic's Tonic, then have my mule pull a monster. One nuke for baseline (or until one goes unresisted), Conflux and add an appropriate Atma, ES -> Another nuke.

Another interesting piece that's maybe worth testing the potency on is Melaco Mittens. I'll probably try to test that and Fowling Earring at the same time, assuming I can ever catch a Melaco on AH.

Completely random, but what merits did you pick?



Edited, Jun 6th 2011 1:46pm by Byrthnoth


The base is 5% w/ the +2 w/out merits. I have 5/5 killer effects merits.
I do not believe Gausape effects killer effects proc rate, but I have not tested that specifically.

BST cannot equip fowling earring. Since the notice about killer effects in the May update I think it would be good to test all the new killer effects gear also. glad the mitts can actually be sold on AH nice upgrade from the darksteel mitts, and bird killer is an interested bonus.
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#85 Jun 07 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Err, what I meant was this!

As a general rule, it seems like Ferine Gausape +2 gives a damage boost equal to Intimidation Rate/2. So:
1 Merit = +1% Intimidation Rate = +.05% Damage.
Gear = ~2% intimidation rate = +1% damage.
10% base intimidation rate = +5% damage base pre-merits.

If your intimidation rate actually increased, we'd expect to see it reflected in an increased damage boost from Ferine Gausape +2. 20% intimidation rate should give you a 10% damage boost. It would be easy to test using either a magical weaponskill like Primal Rend or /BLM ES magic, right?

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 12:24pm by Byrthnoth
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#86 Jun 07 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Err, what I meant was this!

As a general rule, it seems like Ferine Gausape +2 gives a damage boost equal to Intimidation Rate/2. So:
1 Merit = +1% Intimidation Rate = +.05% Damage.
Gear = ~2% intimidation rate = +1% damage.
10% base intimidation rate = +5% damage base pre-merits.

If your intimidation rate actually increased, we'd expect to see it reflected in an increased damage boost from Ferine Gausape +2. 20% intimidation rate should give you a 10% damage boost. It would be easy to test using either a magical weaponskill like Primal Rend or /BLM ES magic, right?

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 12:24pm by Byrthnoth


Hmm, I'm not sure if proc rate directly relates to pdt/damage+... at least I'm not sure the exact ratio.

Already tested and confirmed in another thread. So, yes, your proposed test for atma would be very indicative.

There are just few gear pieces that are optimal for this. This is why I keep killer shortbow on all the time, 'cept when I reward or call beast. It gives me 1% damage boost to pretty much anything and status resists. I have 8% damage boost from gausape, merits and killer shortbow.

tatami shield is another 1%
Beast trousers is 1% but doesn't seem to kick in until you have at least 3% boost from other equipment sources.
tamer's ring is 2%
Suzaku's scythe is 3%, birds only
panther mask is 1%, lizards only

I havne't tested pants or mask since the may update though, they may have changed.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 12:54pm by Xilk

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 12:56pm by Xilk
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#87 Jun 07 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Do you know that Killer merits give +.5% damage by analyzing after single merits, or by looking at a larger trend?

I ask, because some things (like Fast Cast's effect on recast time) is only applied in whole % point increments. So if you have 27% Fast Cast, you get -13% recast time instead of -13.5%. It's two floor steps, basically.

If damage boosts from Ferine Gausape worked the same way, it could explain some of your odd results (like Beast Trousers only giving a killer boost after an arbitrary added amount, 3%). If I went through and tested all the "Killer" items with and without 1 Killer Effects merit, then I could determine the exact +Intimidation rate boost anyway though.

Based off your testing (15% -> 20%), I would guess that SE just boosted killer trait base from 10% to 15%.

I'll probably do as much of this testing as I can tonight when I get home, but feel free to preempt me!

Things to Test:
1) Baseline, no Killer merits or Atma or Gear, just go nuke something with and without Ferine Gausape +2 on.
2) Go put 1 Killer merit in and repeat the baseline to see if anything has changed.
2a) If it has, put one more Killer merit on and repeat the baseline to see if it changes again.
3) Use an appropriate pet and see if Killer Instinct grants any benefit if you already have the Killer trait. <-- just personal interest.
3a) If it does, repeat test 3 with AF3+2 hat on to see if it matters.
4) If 1 = 2 (no change), then I'll need to re-test some of the gear in the long run, once with an odd number of Killer Merits and once with an even number.
5) Test Atma the same way as 4.
6) Eeehhhhh... I should probably verify that all the Killer traits are the same potency, but I'm willing to use parsimony to assume they are.

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with jug pet testing, so I might move it to BG's Random Testing Thread and bgwiki when I do the tests.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 1:41pm by Byrthnoth
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#88 Jun 07 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Do you know that Killer merits give +.5% damage by analyzing after single merits, or by looking at a larger trend?

I ask, because some things (like Fast Cast's effect on recast time) is only applied in whole % point increments. So if you have 27% Fast Cast, you get -13% recast time instead of -13.5%. It's two floor steps, basically.

If damage boosts from Ferine Gausape worked the same way, it could explain some of your odd results (like Beast Trousers only giving a killer boost after an arbitrary added amount, 3%). If I went through and tested all the "Killer" items with and without 1 Killer Effects merit, then I could determine the exact +Intimidation rate boost anyway though.

Based off your testing (15% -> 20%), I would guess that SE just boosted killer trait base from 10% to 15%.

I'll probably do as much of this testing as I can tonight when I get home, but feel free to preempt me!

Things to Test:
1) Baseline, no Killer merits or Atma or Gear, just go nuke something with and without Ferine Gausape +2 on.
2) Go put 1 Killer merit in and repeat the baseline to see if anything has changed.
2a) If it has, put one more Killer merit on and repeat the baseline to see if it changes again.
3) Use an appropriate pet and see if Killer Instinct grants any benefit if you already have the Killer trait. <-- just personal interest.
3a) If it does, repeat test 3 with AF3+2 hat on to see if it matters.
4) If 1 = 2 (no change), then I'll need to re-test some of the gear in the long run, once with an odd number of Killer Merits and once with an even number.
5) Test Atma the same way as 4.
6) Eeehhhhh... I should probably verify that all the Killer traits are the same potency, but I'm willing to use parsimony to assume they are.

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with jug pet testing, so I might move it to BG's Random Testing Thread and bgwiki when I do the tests.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 1:41pm by Byrthnoth


read the other thread. Also ready this thread on ffxiah.

The base is well established. 5% damage boost w/ no merits or other gear, just the gausape +2. it was 2% w/ the gausape +1.

More thorough testing can be done, but its clear to see an improvement w/ both gear and merits, and its clear how much.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 1:47pm by Xilk
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#89 Jun 07 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, for some reason I thought you established the base before the last patch, as per your last post in that FFXIAH thread.
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#90 Jun 07 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Sorry, for some reason I thought you established the base before the last patch, as per your last post in that FFXIAH thread.


Oh! yeah, I wasn't clear on that. I did both.

established base before, and tested after. it did not change. so that indicates that it probably doesn't work how you say.. unless the adjustment didn't adjust the base, but only how much the merits improve killer effects.
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#91 Jun 07 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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So what is the best and most affordable jug? Back when I played, it was Courrier Carrie.
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#92 Jun 07 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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This is what I've found so far:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Temporary-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4641701&viewfull=1#post4641701

I'm probably going to leave off testing PDT and go quantify all the killer things I can get my hands on using the damage bonus.

Edit: How did you get a 20% Intimidation rate? I'm parsing a paltry 5-6% with a huge sample size.
Edit2: Somewhat nevermind, I think Killer effects in Altepa in general are messed up. They work in Misa and Vunk just fine at least.

Question - Do Killer merits allow you to intimidate things that you couldn't normally intimidate, like Puks and Demons?

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 12:39am by Byrthnoth
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#93 Jun 07 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
This is what I've found so far:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Temporary-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4641701&viewfull=1#post4641701

I'm probably going to leave off testing PDT and go quantify all the killer things I can get my hands on using the damage bonus.

Edit: How did you get a 20% Intimidation rate? I'm parsing a paltry 5-6% with a huge sample size.
Edit2: Somewhat nevermind, I think Killer effects in Altepa in general are messed up. They work in Misa and Vunk just fine at least.

Question - Do Killer merits allow you to intimidate things that you couldn't normally intimidate, like Puks and Demons?

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 12:39am by Byrthnoth


Killer effects do not let you intimidate demons, but tatami shield or killer shortbow does. The merits do not improve damage increase to demons, dragons, arcana or undead. You only get the ~1% from killer shortbow. I have not tested having /drg or /pld so we have the native trait to see how it performs. I think your atma test would do the same. It looks like from your testing that the merits do not improve these other killer effects, but you do get the same base damage+ as our native ones.

I'm pretty sure our killer traits are all the same potency. I did test a few of those. I have not seen a difference between intimidation rate, or damage+ w/ gausape between bird killer, beast killer, and vermin killer, although I have not tested all killer effects. I thought perhaps they were different strength since we get them at different levels.

I'm not sure about puks. They definitely qualify as Dragons, but they are chimera between dragon and colibri. I'm not sure if bird killer will affect them, but it shouldn't be hard to test.

As far as 20% intimidation rate, I'm just killing stuff w/ my parser running. I've been working on my Double attack trial axe, and all my parses since the update are showing right around 20% intimidation rate (19~21). I do have 5/5 merits though and I have killer shortbow on (which is only 1% change). not sure if you do or not. It also shows PET intimidation rate around 4~5%


Nice testing. I went out to do some, but I was so sleepy I didn't stay up for it. Yes, I know about inconsistencies, thats why I created a bug report thread on official forums. They want more testing because they are not sure what the complaint is. So its sitting in my court right now.



Edited, Jun 8th 2011 1:17am by Xilk
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#94 Jun 08 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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I figured out what why killer traits are inconsistent. See BG thread for more (and other random testing).

Figured it out again... for some reason Plantoid, Arcana, Demon, and Beast Killer are only 8% Intimidation rate, while all the others that I can test are 10%. I don't have /DRG or /PLD, so I can't test those.

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 8:40am by Byrthnoth
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#95 Jun 09 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty well done taking this testing as far as I'm taking it. Tonight I'm going to try to see if there's a cap on intimidation rate. I expect Hobgoblin Chocolate (12?), 5 Effect merits (5), AF1 legs (1), Panther Mask (2?), Tatami Shield (2), Killer Shortbow (2), Atma of the Impenetrable (10), Killer Instinct (15), and Lizard Killer trait (10) would give a 59% intimidation rate (+29% damage with and without Beast Trousers, with another 15% from Killer Instinct for +48.35%) if there is no cap.


I'd like to test it with a Panther Mask +1 (+2~4), Tamer's Ring (+3), and Lizard Earring (maybe +5?), but they're rated between "Dead Slow" and "Very Slow" on FFXIAH so that's going to have to wait.
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#96 Jun 09 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
I'm pretty well done taking this testing as far as I'm taking it. Tonight I'm going to try to see if there's a cap on intimidation rate. I expect Hobgoblin Chocolate (12?), 5 Effect merits (5), AF1 legs (1), Panther Mask (2?), Tatami Shield (2), Killer Shortbow (2), Atma of the Impenetrable (10), Killer Instinct (15), and Lizard Killer trait (10) would give a 59% intimidation rate (+29% damage with and without Beast Trousers, with another 15% from Killer Instinct for +48.35%) if there is no cap.


I'd like to test it with a Panther Mask +1 (+2~4), Tamer's Ring (+3), and Lizard Earring (maybe +5?), but they're rated between "Dead Slow" and "Very Slow" on FFXIAH so that's going to have to wait.



I've reviewed your findings on the BG forum in detail. I think you have a good model. It makes good sense why trousers were not showing a good increase and why tamer's ring shows 2% damage increase instead of 3. I do have it, and it fits your model and fits the stated text on the item. I think its ironic that our bst trousers are the weakest piece of gear.
The discrepancy you are pointing at for bst killer and plantoid killer compared to others is interesting in that they are the last ones obtained by bst, and they are obtained at higher levels. Is there a 2nd tier I wonder? would need to parse other traits at lower levels to check if they come out to 8% or not.

Your model suggests that suzaku's scythe is +6 or 7 killer trait, and probably 6 when I apply it to my testing. I saw 3% damage improvement from it alone.

Your model fits my old intimidation rate of 15% w/ my gear and merits, but not the 20% I"m seeing since the update. I think its a pretty good model, but I wonder if something is missing w/ this intimidation rate I"m getting.
if the base for bst is 8, I have on shortbow for 2, and 5 merits thats it for gnoles... but I have another 5% coming from somewhere.

If you can really stack lizard killer up so high... we could probably get 67% -pdt vs lizards :P maybe a bit higher w/ the right earring and weapon... a bit higher w/ the killer instinct up as well :P Great findings.

I"ll go ahead soon and make some changes to wiki regarding killer traits and point to your testing. Thank you very much for doing more testing regarding this.
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#97 Jun 09 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Remember, it's (Intimidation rate)/2 = Damage Bonus and PDT bonus, so the max would be like -~33% PDT against Lizards with all the right gear. You'd be sacrificing slots that you could just wear real PDT in, but you'd have a ~67% Intimidation Proc rate to go along with it.

To work through an example:
Tamer's Ring = +3% Intimidation Rate
15% base (10+5 merits) + 3% from Ring = 18%
15%/2 = 7.5% = 7% damage boost
18%/2 = 9% = 9% damage boost
9-7 = 2% increase (could be +3 or +4 at this point)

From that, we can tell that Tamer's Ring is +3% or +4% intimidation rate (even if it wasn't written as +3 in the description). Then you could put on your Beast Trousers:
16% Base (10+ 5 merits+ 1 trousers) + 3% from Ring = 19%
16%/2 = 8% = 8% damage boost
19%/2 = 9.5% = 9% damage boost (Combined with the above results, this shows it has to be +3)

By running it at an odd and even Killer effect level like this, you can figure out the exact value.



Interesting point on the Trait II possibilities. Unfortunately, Ferine Gausape is level 89. Unless I sync myself to 89 and Aquan Killer II happens to have been 90, I won't be able to tell. Also, I don't have any level 89 job on my mule and most people cruise straight to 90. I'll check if he has anything close that I can delevel though. It's an interesting possibility.

As far as your 19-20% intimidation rate, I'm not sure. You have to be aware there are some qualifications that come with KParser's "intimidation rate." I think it assumes the monsters have 10% Double Attack (1.1 attacks per round average), which is important because Intimidations negate entire attack rounds. That's why I got such an absurdly low proc rate when I parsed against Mandies. When I did my testing against Wamouracampa (no native DA), I just did (Intimidations)/(Hits + Misses). "Misses" includes Intimidations, Parries, etc.


I updated BGwiki with most of the testing, but feel free to add it where-ever. Speaking of which, I noticed on this page that it claims all Birds have Aquan Killer. Personally, I don't feel this is the case. I think all Birds have Bird Affinity, which is 5% Intimidation Rate and +/-2% damage like our pets parse. What do you think?


List for tonight:
1) Bibiki Seashell (oops, haven't done the quest)
2) Massacre one of my mule's 90 jobs for the sake of science and test for Aquan Killer II - Nope, didn't work.
3) Hobgoblin Chocolate (probably 12), Bison Steak

Edit: Updated Test 5 and added Test 6 to the BG post. No super killer builds for us >:/

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 10:03pm by Byrthnoth
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#98 Jun 09 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, my idea was to stack all the lizard killer gear/food/etc and max pdt at 50% w/ other gear and atma if needed... I can't say it would be terribly useful, but it would be interesting to try. Also i was not including the killer instinct in the number 67%.. but it looks like it might cap at 62.5% if killer effects is +50.

Also, I've been meaning to test gausape for -mdt as well, but haven't' gotten around to it. Its a simple test, but I wanted to see if it is -dt or just -pdt. I suspect it is -dt. I suppose getting a hecteyes or worm to cast on you a few times the same spell, w/ and w/out would be effective. A high level worm would work best. you can stay out of range w/ a bit of refresh and just cure yourself while it nukes you.
If the mob is too low level, you resist too much and its irritating getting a good number. actually having some hp+ atma, regen, and no mdt would work well to test in abyssea. I'll try this one if i can get online today... or tomorrow, cuz I probably won't be gaming today. ;.;


in order to test intimidation rate at lower levels, I would parse, and probably manually calculate, the rate at lower levels. Also, it might be useful to get a few of the traits on /blu to see if there is a difference, though I doubt that one.

Edit: I've just remember something else to test. I long time ago, I wondered if chr might also affect killer effects. It seems many of the plantoids and beasts you tested on were hich chr or difficult to charm mobs... 'cept the rabbits though... I'm just brainstorming really, but the nice discussion about the shade set intimidation rate does mention it goes down when mobs are higher level. There may be a stat modifier.. and I've long been suspicous of all chr+ they've always put on bst gear.

I've been updating wiki abit regarding killer effects and monster affinity. The are separate traits, but its clear that monster affinity gives 5% killer effect as well. I'm confident this Monster affinity is what all mobs natively have... Its why they are intimidated by the monster correlations and beastmasters are not. We do no have affinity, just the killer trait. I suspect the Affinity might give the bonus to attack or defense following the monster correlation chart, which is why it may not show up in maxed out pet testing attack on level 0 mobs...
I'm thinking I'll do an intimidation test w/ a supertank pet and keep cabasset on to see if I can actually measure a difference in intimidation rate. If not, i'll post bug report on official forums.


Edited, Jun 10th 2011 3:04am by Xilk
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#99 Jun 10 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't report it earlier, but I did a bunch of tests trying to figure out wtf AF3+2 head does.

First off, control:
Tulwar Scorpion takes 933 damage from 1000 needles without it on at any point
Mayfly Familiar takes 1183 damage from 1000 needles without it on at any point

Then, the unfortunate test case:
Tulwar Scorpion takes 933 damage from 1000 needles wearing it for Charm and continuously afterwards
Mayfly Familiar takes 1183 damage from 1000 needles wearing it for Call Beast and continuously afterwards

So then I tried to test if it affected damage dealt using Amigo against some rabbits. Everything with hat on.
1000 Needles = 1000 damage (honestly, I thought it was supposed to get a bonus anyway)
1000 Needles vs. 4 targets = 3x 250, 1x 252

I've gotten some weird +/- a few damage on 1000 needles against multiple targets before, so I don't think +1% here is really that significant. Anyway, using it on four rabbits pretty much ended my sabotender.
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#100 Jun 10 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
I didn't report it earlier, but I did a bunch of tests trying to figure out wtf AF3+2 head does.

First off, control:
Tulwar Scorpion takes 933 damage from 1000 needles without it on at any point
Mayfly Familiar takes 1183 damage from 1000 needles without it on at any point

Then, the unfortunate test case:
Tulwar Scorpion takes 933 damage from 1000 needles wearing it for Charm and continuously afterwards
Mayfly Familiar takes 1183 damage from 1000 needles wearing it for Call Beast and continuously afterwards

So then I tried to test if it affected damage dealt using Amigo against some rabbits. Everything with hat on.
1000 Needles = 1000 damage (honestly, I thought it was supposed to get a bonus anyway)
1000 Needles vs. 4 targets = 3x 250, 1x 252

I've gotten some weird +/- a few damage on 1000 needles against multiple targets before, so I don't think +1% here is really that significant. Anyway, using it on four rabbits pretty much ended my sabotender.


Flies are weak to piercing damage

The 6.7 is stout servant
I've done those gets on the head piece also.

I simply want to test intimidation rate ansome magical ready moves
If I don't see anything tree Ill make a bug report.

1000 needles you could increase damage a bit on blu. Because it was magical instead of the same as cactuar.

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#101 Jun 11 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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6.7 is actually the ~-5% from Stout Servant (12/256) * -2% from monster/pet affinity, I think.
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