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#27 Dec 03 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)
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#28 Dec 03 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?


Yes but its amazing how rarely PUG meripo leaders get this concept. I've been sole support in many a meripo of late. Yet I always tell them to replace a leaving DD with another support job and they go, "but we already have a COR!"

Best parties I've been in for meripo always are COR + BRD + RDM and I've some rocking bird parties with BRD + COR + DNC.
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#29 Dec 03 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Multi support are always "ideal" but at least on my server, even if you are creating it yourself, they just arent around for a PUG. Its usually DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD....maybe 1 brd in the lfp list. LS parties are a bit more reliable as you can con people with support jobs into playing, but sometimes even that is a hard sell since many people with brd just dont like playing it because they are either burned out on it (Brd4life!) or the never liked it much to start with but leveled it anyway for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the utter lack of a Cor population.

I guess i have always considered 1 support the standard, two as a rare gift (and extremely welcome). I think I have been in probably ~10 double support parties in my ~5 years here. Different experiences for every person, but thats mine.

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#30 Dec 03 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I haven't taken a meripo party in the past years w/o a second support job. Alot of people on my server will just say no to invites.
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#31 Dec 04 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)



Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

All i can say is try it out, I have yet to have anyone other than a nin complain about getting 2 x minuet in a meripo on birds (and i was the nin that complained) brds sometimes complain about doing 2x minuet instead of march, but then they see the drg or myself drop a bird from 70% to dead in 1 ws, and they keep singing their merry minuets all day.
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#32 Dec 04 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Aryden wrote:
Quote:
Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)



Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

All i can say is try it out, I have yet to have anyone other than a nin complain about getting 2 x minuet in a meripo on birds (and i was the nin that complained) brds sometimes complain about doing 2x minuet instead of march, but then they see the drg or myself drop a bird from 70% to dead in 1 ws, and they keep singing their merry minuets all day.

It's just an alternative. Remember when the old days of arrowburn in Ru'Avitau? Everything is spike damage. People know how to juggle when to spike when to reserve (Barrage and WS). Also a well-buffed polearm SAM will have enough attack to make the last few extra attack DRG have become minimal in term of WS damage.

Also.. idk if you wanna compare SAM/WAR 5-hit polearm with SAM/DRG with no berserk or SAM/WAR with 1-less hit to hit 100TP (I think?)
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#33 Dec 04 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

Not sure about that first part. DRG gets a heavy advantage in PLM skill and weapon DMG, but SAM/WAR will absolutely murder DRG/SAM in ATK (Overwhelm+'zerk).

Here is a parse I did a while ago with an elite SAM and DRG (Failure = SAM, Avelle = DRG, me = RNG), in which SAM actually outdamaged DRG in average WS damage. And, in my experience, that's not entirely uncommon.
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#34 Dec 04 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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what subs were all of you using?

Which polearms were they using?

What food were they using?

Noticed the sam had a much higher crit rate 6% ish which seems to make up the majority of what he parsed over the drg. The sam was doing roughly 100 points on average more than the drg on average ws.

(6% higher crit rate, i have to assume kitty pants were involved)

Oh and i assume you are Terra, since i dont know your character name. What was your sub and why did you parse so low?

And why was the drg the only person in the pt to take any damage?

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 5:06pm by Aryden
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#35 Dec 04 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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what subs were all of you using?
SAM/WAR, DRG/SAM, RNG/SAM

Which polearms were they using?
SAM-Tomoe, DRG-Thalassocrat

What food were they using?
SAM was using crab sushi, I imagine DRG was eating mithkabobs but I'm not sure. I was eating blackened frog to start, then pot-au-feu.

Quote:
Noticed the sam had a much higher crit rate 6% ish which seems to make up the majority of what he parsed over the drg. The sam was doing roughly 100 points on average more than the drg on average ws.

I'd imagine that the 47 extra WS the same did over the DRG had an impact on the outcome, as well.

Quote:
(6% higher crit rate, i have to assume kitty pants were involved)

Of course, why wouldn't they be?

Quote:
Oh and i assume you are Terra, since i dont know your character name. What was your sub and why did you parse so low?

I parsed "so low" (i.e. ~0.5% behind DRG's direct damage) because I'm a /ra RNG with ~35% snapshot while they are 2h melees with ~65% haste.

Quote:
And why was the drg the only person in the pt to take any damage?

DRG was the one who parsed it, and likely had Damage Taken By Party filtered.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:11pm by redvenomweb
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#36 Dec 04 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not sure about that first part. DRG gets a heavy advantage in PLM skill and weapon DMG, but SAM/WAR will absolutely murder DRG/SAM in ATK (Overwhelm+'zerk).


I thought that overwhelm was an FTP mod, not an atk mod on WS. If its FTP, it does little for penta. Also, I have never seen a polearm sam on birds that doesnt need mad or sushi. Not exactly sure what the acc of a 6hit polearm sam potential is off the top of my head, but im pretty sure 5hit wont work without an acc buff.

It always worked out pretty even in my head. Sam/war with sushi gets good acc+zerk for atk. Drg/sam gets atk from meat and acc from being accurate :P (<3 A+ pole and 22acc bonus). Both swing 6hits. Drg gets 60tp med and jumps which counters sam med for overall damage. Both get hasso. It always seemed pretty even to me on paper. I dont really expect one to blow out the other if players of similar calibur unless buffs favor one over the other significantly (i to you madriga/hunters roll -_-).

But I havent studied sam extensively so its quite possible my assumptions are a little off.

As a side not i REALLY FRIGGIN HATE madrigal/hunters in merits. Im at ~94% hit rate on the higher lv birds. It impossible for me to drop enough gear to remotely use mad/hunters without dropping haste gear.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 7:05pm by Banalaty
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#37 Dec 04 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
I thought that overwhelm was an FTP mod, not an atk mod on WS.

Overwhelm is an ATK bonus, which means that SAM/WAR has (19% + (25% * 3/5)) = 34% ATK bonus on WS that DRG doesn't get.

Quote:
Also, I have never seen a polearm sam on birds that doesnt need mad or sushi.

SAM needs sushi, but unless DRG is spamming red curry buns on birds, it's still going to be left behind.

Quote:
It always worked out pretty even in my head. Sam/war with sushi gets good acc+zerk for atk. Drg/sam gets atk from meat and acc from being accurate :P (<3 A+ pole and 22acc bonus). Both swing 6hits. Drg gets 60tp med and jumps which counters sam med for overall damage. Both get hasso. It always seemed pretty even to me on paper.

1) PLM SAM is 5-hit, not 6-hit like DRG
2) Jump and High Jump do not really "break even" with 80% extra TP from SAM main Meditate

BTW, songs for that party were March2/March1/Minuet4/Minuet3 on melee and Min4/Min3/Min2/Herc.Etude for me.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:28pm by redvenomweb
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#38 Dec 04 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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The atk bonus on overwhelm certainly gets me thinking.

But anyway, Drg gets 3 jumps (jumpx2 and high) over the same span as med (can be merited down to the same ratio as sam merited med also). If going 6hit build, thats 50 tp and they do damage. Id say the damage of 3 jumps more than makes up for 30 tp and they can DA/Crit etc for more damage/TP. Also its harder to waste TP on jumps compared to med as they are spread out. Less overshooting. Minor point but still.

For the meat vs zerk i was going for the full time but less atk vs spikey zerk up/down atk. With say, subs i have like 503 atk TP and 555 in WS/jump. I cant imagine a Sam has more base atk than a drg gearing for 5hit stp gear and much lower polearm skill. Guessing around 400ish probably based on merits. zerk adds 100 atk or "60" for the 60% avg. Even with minuets boosting the effect of zerk but not my food, 2x min is ~100 atk. so about 500 base for sam 600+ for drg. Zerk up 625ish. 60% drops it to about the same over time. Of course both have more atk in WS gear etc and these are rather gross estimations, but I just dont see where same really powers ahead after acc food and lower skill since zerk is only 60%. If they have similar levels of gear, i dont really see sam running away in the atk department. And find it really kinda impossible to make up everything if they dont have polearm merits. But since were talking "competative" I will assume merits on the sam, though in reality not many have them.

Then again, I have ares body, heca legs and some otherwise good gear for my atk levels.

But anyway, this is why i need to just find a good sam. Im tired of theory crafting this setup in my head and im to lazy to really put some real numbers and give it an in depth analysis :P
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#39 Dec 04 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ultimately, it boils down to this (and the parse reflects it):

-5-hit vs. 6-hit is major advantage to SAM
-Overwhelm + 'zerk puts SAM equal-or-better on avg. WS damage
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#40 Dec 05 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd really just want to see all 3 player's gear choices in that pt. I havent seen any sam "run away" on a parse like that unless they just completely outclassed everyone in the pt in gear.
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#41 Dec 05 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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My WS gear:
http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/rngstr.jpg

TP changes:
Osode -> Snap+5/RATK+10 Mirke
Wyvern Helm -> Zha'Go's Barbut
Seiryu's Kote -> Crimson Finger Gauntlets
Light Gorget -> Qiqirn Collar

max marksmanship/crit/rapid shot/snapshot merits, 4/5 STR merits

Failure wrote:
Me:
TP-
Tomoe|Pole|Lightning+1
Turban|PCC|Fowling|Brutal
Usu|Dusk|Rajas|Iota
Cuch|Swift|Byakko|Usu

WS changes -
Hissho, Shadow Gorget
Haub+1, Myochin+1
Warwolf, Usu

Was using Crab Sushi. Using Usu body for a true 5hit, @#%^ feather tickle.
4 Pole merits, 5 str, 5stp, 5 meditate, 5 overwhelm, 4bash, 1 shiki.

Avelle (mostly guesses, but I'd say it'll all be right but 1-2 items):
TP-
Thallaso|Pole|Tiphia
Turban|PCC|Assault|Brutal
Askar|Homam|Rajas|(Iota or Uthalam)
Cuch|Swift|Homam|Homam
WS-
Wyvern|Gorget
Heca|Heca
Warwolf|Ares|Heca

He's using Askar for the 6hit. I could be off on some of this, but I -think- that's what he uses. He has Full Ares, may use a helm on WS? Really dunno. I know he wants a better WS helm. Also, I'm not sure on Cuch/Forager's. He owns both, I'm not sure where/when he uses which atm.
He has 5 str, 8 pole, 5 jump/high jump, not sure on G2.

Both melee were fulltime Hasso on birds, though switched to Seigan if we had hate on a Wivre.

I think you underestimate how strong SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM are in meripo compared to the rest of the cast.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 1:36pm by redvenomweb
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#42 Dec 06 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
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Nope i surely do not, However, i tend to not see "run away" parses like that unless its when 1 person completely outclasses the others. Dont get me wrong, i am a huge fan of DD's going back to subbing war instead of nin and being pussies, so, atleast this is something i can show to people and say "this works dumbass"

and *SLAP* finish your **** str merit(s)......

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:36pm by Aryden
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#43 Jan 11 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Howdy,

I've just been leveling RNG for Maat's so my perspective is definitely not merits/endgame/etc.

I have just finished an exp party level sync63 with SAM/WARx2 RNG/SAM BRD RDM RNG/NIN (me).

I used fran/mkris the other rng used fire staff.

I'm not going to post all the figures because it becomes messy. Overall damage was:
- SAM/WAR: 16.71 %
- RNG/SAM: 24.01 %
- SAM/WAR: 26.52 %
- mkris RNG/NIN (me): 32.05 %

Overall I had 78.06% acc and 90.28% racc (with prelude and sushi).

The other rng had similar racc (~86%) and higher base damage.

The main difference between our builds was that I used spike earring x2 and lifebelt, one snipers and TP'd in j. peti where as he had the typical RNG agi/racc stuff.

We were both using sushi (although I dont think he was as religious with his which accounts for the difference in racc which really should be in his favor).

Overall, there is a significant difference in our figures (with me doing an extra 20% dmg) which I contribute to:
1. I used WS much much more often than him (43/9 vs 27/10).
2. He actually shot less arrows than me because some of the time when he took hate, he would wait for someone else to get hate then run back to pummeling range where as I was hitting everything from melee rng

Overall its not as good a comparison as I had hoped because of our different play styles (distanced vs melee range) but I have three main thoughts.

1. Mkris seems to be a stronger choice at this level assuming
- You have enough acc and enough att that you dont constantly hit for 0 (i had over 100 melee attacks before my first 0 dmg hit)
- You macro in your racc/agi gear for WS and barrage
2. Overall effectiveness is reduced by another rng in a pt who pulls the mob away from you (normally more of my TP comes from melee than it did in this pt)... When you are running, you cant shoot. This is true for the entire party which is why I prefer to shoot from melee distance so to not reduce the dot of other DD whilst they chase after me.
3. Convince your RDM that you deserve haste (if they have the spare mp). I have pt'd with one of these sams at this camp before and beat him by an extra ~6% when I had haste.

So, not a perfect trial but very interesting nonetheless.

Cheers,
Thick.



Edit: Removing full table of figures for clarity.




Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:09am by Thickskin

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:10am by Thickskin
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#44 Jan 11 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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Thickskin wrote:


I used fran/mkris the other rng used fire staff.






Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:09am by Thickskin

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:10am by Thickskin



Just go ahead and drop your axe if you are gonna melee.


I always kinda frowned on the idea of a kris ranger. But I have to say I've done quite well being a kris Cor and rng has several things that would make it even better.

1) more acc/racc from traits
2) more/better haste gear
3) better bullets
4) no 'wasted' time giving buffs or suffering through having evokers roll on
5) barrage (assuming both sub war)
6) more str on WS from gear


I think it could work just fine. It is optimal? No. But for optimal you will be using club or job changing anyways.
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#45 Jan 12 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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"barberofSeville" wrote:
Just go ahead and drop your axe if you are gonna melee.


Actually I just read another post about this, interesting idea.

I must admit, the only reason i was using fransisca was because I hadn't used it before (other than skilling up archery on war).

I guess with fransisca, i feel like I'm trading off 4 STR and 3att for 7racc and more frequent WS but if i was using just an mkris I would need to store a bit more TP before WS (which i would get quicker) at the cost of less TP from ranged attack and even lower dot/WS damage. I suppose mkris only would be even better again but not sure how to do the math. The best bit is I could sub WAR (assuming i could stay alive).

This raises a question that I have thought a lot about. I have read somewhere that sidewinder has about -40 racc. My WS gear has about an extra 20 racc and I feel like at 120% TP I have the same accuracy with sidewinder as my racc in TP build (though I can't actually parse this as I cannot record how much TP I have at the time of WS).

Has there been any analysis on how the extra TP above 100% affects the accuracy of sidewinder? Eyeballing it (not reliable i know), it seems to me like 1 extra TP gives 1 extra WS Acc... is this a stupid theory?

I assume there have been discussions on sidewinder before but couldn't find any... sorry in advance if I'm blind.
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#46 Jan 12 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Parsing against other people is not an accurate way of measuring something's worth.


Parse yourself for 50 mobs, then parse yourself with mkris for 50 mobs. Because I bet even if you were using normal Ratt setup like the other Rng, you'd still outparse him.

Outparsing some random pickup member means literally nothing. I'm sure someonewill explain if you don't know why,
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#47 Jan 12 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
more str on WS from gear


Do you realy have more STR on WS from RNG than COR?
Apart from kirin's osode and wyvern helm, I don't see where COR gets less STR gear than RNG.

COR gets warwolf belt or commodore belt, Alky, Cor bottes +1, which RNG can't wear. RNG gets osode and wyvern helm which COR can't wear. That's 20 STR for COR and 15 STR for RNG. And the COR's substitutes for osode and wyvern helm offer 9 STR (mirke and WS anwig) whereas a RNG substitutes for the unique COR STR gear offers 2 STR (RK belt +1) at best.

The only argument I can see favoring RNG is the fact that you can use more STR gear in a slugshot macro because of the better ranged accuracy of A- skill and ACC bonus trait IV. But arguably a COR could make up for that with martial gun TP bonus and Hunters Roll.

But an M Kris RNG on merit stuff would likely parse fine, just not as good as K club RNG and likely similar to an arrow spamming RNG. But personally I levelled RNG because I like ranged attacks. If I wanted to melee on RNG i'd have levelled a different job.
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#48 Jan 12 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
And the COR's substitutes for osode and wyvern helm offer 9 STR (mirke and WS anwig) whereas a RNG substitutes for the unique COR STR gear offers 2 STR (RK belt +1) at best.
Skadi's Bazubands. Buccaneer's Belt, etc.
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#49 Jan 12 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Forgive me for Theory crafting.

On my server, BRD/BRD or BRD/COR is the ONLY way any merit pt will leave Whitegate, so I'll use March x2 + Minuet x2 as party buffs as it's the base amount you'll get in any merit pt here.

RNG/DRG is the absolute best combo for MK or KC RNGs in my honest opinion. The 5% haste from wyvern earring, and extra TP from jumps make it the absolute best for rapid TP gain.

25% haste in gear (1/5/5/3/4/5/2), 20% marches, 15% Haste spell.

This means the RNG/DRG has 60% haste, giving them a 76 Delay, with a weapon averaging 2 swings per round, for 5.2 tp a hit. Assuming WS returns 17.2tp, it takes 16 hits to reach 100tp. So it takes about 10.136 seconds to WS.

If I'm correct an E.Bow RNG with 25% SS, and a 5 hit build (20tp per shot), has a 367 delay. 4 shots needed to reach 100tp after WS. So 24.468 seconds between WSs, but since there's no Auto Ranged attack, it's actually a bit longer.

You end up doing about 2.5 more WSs with MK, but at the cost of pretty much all of your DoT. This is of course on Birds, where you can easily cap ACC, so I didn't figure in ACC to just give an Idealized amount.
#50 Jan 12 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Skadi's Bazubands. Buccaneer's Belt, etc.


Well those do get the STR up to 9 but I was thinking most RNG would be using Seiryu's Kote and Scout's belt which offer good AGI but no STR.

Still i don't see where a RNG has "more STR options" than COR. My RNG WS build can't touch my detonator build on COR for STR. It's like +45 to +32.



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#51 Jan 12 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The 5% haste from wyvern earring,


6% if you include the shield

It might be more of burden on mp though~





Edited, Jan 12th 2010 4:03pm by Deadonarrival
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