Merc Kris for TP?Follow

I figured I would start my own topic because I am on tech support with U-Verse.

Anyways, I got bored and saved up for a Merc Kris to melee for TP when I get Corsair up to level. I am curious is the Kris with fully dagger merits is worth the melee on RNG? I have a decent(not super fantastic) haste set also. Something like 12-13% haste. Just curious.

I was curious, I use it mostly for Campaign and /dnc solo breaking gun. Thanks for the info.

Edited***
I am not sure, but I am now a sage, thanks if someone made me red. I can stop posting forever now...

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 3:47pm by Saneporro

According to FFXI calculator, my accuracy would only be 72.6% on a level 82 337 evasion mob without food. You need 407 to cap accuracy on birds, and with that set up I would have roughly 360.2.

I'd guesstimate you would need at least 80%+ to make it a worthwhile endeavor over /ra with a decent amount of snapshot (capped merits, ACP body). I would need to come up another 20ish accuracy (body being the big one), but I don't know where to draw the line between accuracy and haste for RNG.

Meaning I would most likely need sushi in order to keep my TP build going, but that would sacrifice my WS damage a fair bit.

With amazing gear I could see it being worthwhile. But with amazing gear, might as well buy a k club.

Edit: Added note that COR is on perma sushi as well with M Kris, which in my case only nets me an average ~85% accuracy on bird parses.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 5:18pm by Weakness

What sub are we talking about using here as well? /sam, /war or /nin?


With E.bow + /sam 17% tp gain per shot so youre going to have to hit atleast 3 hits per ranged attack cycle, which shouldnt be that hard when the 3rd attack procs. Fully hasted gear and magical, i see it boosting tp gain slightly, however, overall youre going to be missing out on regular ratt dmg, and in a bird situation, we're talking 400ish dmg per hit, NOT to mention to gain max haste youre going to need 2 x march, which means youre not going to have 2 x minuet (usually). The mkris would have gain some very very serious tp > ranged attacks to compensate for the damage loss of ratt's.

Also, in the accuracy issue, account for hunter's roll, you shouldnt have to even look at sushi then.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 8:26pm by Aryden

I have experimented with this in merits once. My setup is:

MK/ /Hellfire+1/Silver bullets
Turban /Love torque/Diablos' /minuet
Avalon /Dusk gloves/Toreador's/Toreador's
Cuchulain's/Swift belt /Byakko's /Enkidu's

I plan on doing more testing with it, it didn't perform too badly (a little higher than a well geared GK SAM). Will include some numbers once I test it more.

A single BRD is doing the following,
March x 2
Ballad II, possibly Ballad I
Pulling / Sleeping monster.

If in a good PT they don't have time for a Ballad I on the mage, how exactly are they going to have time for special songs for a RNG? If its a group of RNG's in a arrowburn setup, then I can see them doing Min instead of March. Or if you have two BRD's one the backline one is doing your Min x 2 songs. But a single BRD isn't buffing the RNG with special songs, there simply isn't enough time available.

For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.

Wait... what?

If you're arguing against k club, you're just an idiot. Otherwise I have no idea what the hell you're babbling about.

I stick with my initial statement, you gain half the TP of a k club and give up just as much to make a proper melee build. So, still gambling on not worth it.

The question is not whether M.Kris will deal more melee damage than ranged attacks. It obviously will not.

We know for a fact that KC will definitely deal more net damage than /ra RNG, by a wide margin (even though KC itself deals less melee damage than ranged attacks). So the question is whether or not M.Kris will deliver enough net damage to beat /ra RNG. Will it match KC RNG? Of course not. But there's a huge gap in between KC RNG and /ra RNG, and if M.Kris falls anywhere in that huge gap, it's worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very good chance that you won't have any minuets at all (unless you have 2 BRDs or multiple RNGs), which definitely affects the comparison. A M.Kris loss with no Marches could easily turn into a win with 2 Marches and no Minuets.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 12:18pm by redvenomweb

And again, we've already had this debate. That thinking is not conducive to good pt play. If you have a mixed group of DD's, with high ws dmg output, cranking it up with minuet is a good idea, and yes march does as well, but march will not benefit ALL of your dd's, so the logical choice is to use what best for the entire party, even if its minuet + march. Regardless, Rng isnt one of those jobs that absolutely has to have abcxyz songs/rolls/buffs to do what we do, so when we get them, its great, if we dont get them, well it just gives everyone else a chance to catch up.

It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?

RVW's statement implied there should be at least 2 support in order to get (/ra) RNG working in merit party.

I myself tend to see 3.5 support job is the optimal one (at least, before I stopped playing on late Feb).

BRD RDM COR and a DNC focusing on voking/DD/haste samba, not healing.

Ok so not far off from what I've been doing. I will say that I was ignorant and completely missed haste samba's advantage.

Hunters/March/Minuet/W/E

In that order is what I prefer my buffs.

Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)

Multi support are always "ideal" but at least on my server, even if you are creating it yourself, they just arent around for a PUG. Its usually DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD....maybe 1 brd in the lfp list. LS parties are a bit more reliable as you can con people with support jobs into playing, but sometimes even that is a hard sell since many people with brd just dont like playing it because they are either burned out on it (Brd4life!) or the never liked it much to start with but leveled it anyway for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the utter lack of a Cor population.

I guess i have always considered 1 support the standard, two as a rare gift (and extremely welcome). I think I have been in probably ~10 double support parties in my ~5 years here. Different experiences for every person, but thats mine.

Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

All i can say is try it out, I have yet to have anyone other than a nin complain about getting 2 x minuet in a meripo on birds (and i was the nin that complained) brds sometimes complain about doing 2x minuet instead of march, but then they see the drg or myself drop a bird from 70% to dead in 1 ws, and they keep singing their merry minuets all day.

Not sure about that first part. DRG gets a heavy advantage in PLM skill and weapon DMG, but SAM/WAR will absolutely murder DRG/SAM in ATK (Overwhelm+'zerk).

Here is a parse I did a while ago with an elite SAM and DRG (Failure = SAM, Avelle = DRG, me = RNG), in which SAM actually outdamaged DRG in average WS damage. And, in my experience, that's not entirely uncommon.

what subs were all of you using?
SAM/WAR, DRG/SAM, RNG/SAM

Which polearms were they using?
SAM-Tomoe, DRG-Thalassocrat

What food were they using?
SAM was using crab sushi, I imagine DRG was eating mithkabobs but I'm not sure. I was eating blackened frog to start, then pot-au-feu.


I'd imagine that the 47 extra WS the same did over the DRG had an impact on the outcome, as well.


Of course, why wouldn't they be?


I parsed "so low" (i.e. ~0.5% behind DRG's direct damage) because I'm a /ra RNG with ~35% snapshot while they are 2h melees with ~65% haste.


DRG was the one who parsed it, and likely had Damage Taken By Party filtered.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:11pm by redvenomweb

Overwhelm is an ATK bonus, which means that SAM/WAR has (19% + (25% * 3/5)) = 34% ATK bonus on WS that DRG doesn't get.


SAM needs sushi, but unless DRG is spamming red curry buns on birds, it's still going to be left behind.


1) PLM SAM is 5-hit, not 6-hit like DRG
2) Jump and High Jump do not really "break even" with 80% extra TP from SAM main Meditate

BTW, songs for that party were March2/March1/Minuet4/Minuet3 on melee and Min4/Min3/Min2/Herc.Etude for me.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:28pm by redvenomweb

Ultimately, it boils down to this (and the parse reflects it):

-5-hit vs. 6-hit is major advantage to SAM
-Overwhelm + 'zerk puts SAM equal-or-better on avg. WS damage

My WS gear:
http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/rngstr.jpg

TP changes:
Osode -> Snap+5/RATK+10 Mirke
Wyvern Helm -> Zha'Go's Barbut
Seiryu's Kote -> Crimson Finger Gauntlets
Light Gorget -> Qiqirn Collar

max marksmanship/crit/rapid shot/snapshot merits, 4/5 STR merits


I think you underestimate how strong SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM are in meripo compared to the rest of the cast.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 1:36pm by redvenomweb

Howdy,

I've just been leveling RNG for Maat's so my perspective is definitely not merits/endgame/etc.

I have just finished an exp party level sync63 with SAM/WARx2 RNG/SAM BRD RDM RNG/NIN (me).

I used fran/mkris the other rng used fire staff.

I'm not going to post all the figures because it becomes messy. Overall damage was:
- SAM/WAR: 16.71 %
- RNG/SAM: 24.01 %
- SAM/WAR: 26.52 %
- mkris RNG/NIN (me): 32.05 %

Overall I had 78.06% acc and 90.28% racc (with prelude and sushi).

The other rng had similar racc (~86%) and higher base damage.

The main difference between our builds was that I used spike earring x2 and lifebelt, one snipers and TP'd in j. peti where as he had the typical RNG agi/racc stuff.

We were both using sushi (although I dont think he was as religious with his which accounts for the difference in racc which really should be in his favor).

Overall, there is a significant difference in our figures (with me doing an extra 20% dmg) which I contribute to:
1. I used WS much much more often than him (43/9 vs 27/10).
2. He actually shot less arrows than me because some of the time when he took hate, he would wait for someone else to get hate then run back to pummeling range where as I was hitting everything from melee rng

Overall its not as good a comparison as I had hoped because of our different play styles (distanced vs melee range) but I have three main thoughts.

1. Mkris seems to be a stronger choice at this level assuming
- You have enough acc and enough att that you dont constantly hit for 0 (i had over 100 melee attacks before my first 0 dmg hit)
- You macro in your racc/agi gear for WS and barrage
2. Overall effectiveness is reduced by another rng in a pt who pulls the mob away from you (normally more of my TP comes from melee than it did in this pt)... When you are running, you cant shoot. This is true for the entire party which is why I prefer to shoot from melee distance so to not reduce the dot of other DD whilst they chase after me.
3. Convince your RDM that you deserve haste (if they have the spare mp). I have pt'd with one of these sams at this camp before and beat him by an extra ~6% when I had haste.

So, not a perfect trial but very interesting nonetheless.

Cheers,
Thick.



Edit: Removing full table of figures for clarity.




Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:09am by Thickskin

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:10am by Thickskin

Actually I just read another post about this, interesting idea.

I must admit, the only reason i was using fransisca was because I hadn't used it before (other than skilling up archery on war).

I guess with fransisca, i feel like I'm trading off 4 STR and 3att for 7racc and more frequent WS but if i was using just an mkris I would need to store a bit more TP before WS (which i would get quicker) at the cost of less TP from ranged attack and even lower dot/WS damage. I suppose mkris only would be even better again but not sure how to do the math. The best bit is I could sub WAR (assuming i could stay alive).

This raises a question that I have thought a lot about. I have read somewhere that sidewinder has about -40 racc. My WS gear has about an extra 20 racc and I feel like at 120% TP I have the same accuracy with sidewinder as my racc in TP build (though I can't actually parse this as I cannot record how much TP I have at the time of WS).

Has there been any analysis on how the extra TP above 100% affects the accuracy of sidewinder? Eyeballing it (not reliable i know), it seems to me like 1 extra TP gives 1 extra WS Acc... is this a stupid theory?

I assume there have been discussions on sidewinder before but couldn't find any... sorry in advance if I'm blind.

Do you realy have more STR on WS from RNG than COR?
Apart from kirin's osode and wyvern helm, I don't see where COR gets less STR gear than RNG.

COR gets warwolf belt or commodore belt, Alky, Cor bottes +1, which RNG can't wear. RNG gets osode and wyvern helm which COR can't wear. That's 20 STR for COR and 15 STR for RNG. And the COR's substitutes for osode and wyvern helm offer 9 STR (mirke and WS anwig) whereas a RNG substitutes for the unique COR STR gear offers 2 STR (RK belt +1) at best.

The only argument I can see favoring RNG is the fact that you can use more STR gear in a slugshot macro because of the better ranged accuracy of A- skill and ACC bonus trait IV. But arguably a COR could make up for that with martial gun TP bonus and Hunters Roll.

But an M Kris RNG on merit stuff would likely parse fine, just not as good as K club RNG and likely similar to an arrow spamming RNG. But personally I levelled RNG because I like ranged attacks. If I wanted to melee on RNG i'd have levelled a different job.

Forgive me for Theory crafting.

On my server, BRD/BRD or BRD/COR is the ONLY way any merit pt will leave Whitegate, so I'll use March x2 + Minuet x2 as party buffs as it's the base amount you'll get in any merit pt here.

RNG/DRG is the absolute best combo for MK or KC RNGs in my honest opinion. The 5% haste from wyvern earring, and extra TP from jumps make it the absolute best for rapid TP gain.

25% haste in gear (1/5/5/3/4/5/2), 20% marches, 15% Haste spell.

This means the RNG/DRG has 60% haste, giving them a 76 Delay, with a weapon averaging 2 swings per round, for 5.2 tp a hit. Assuming WS returns 17.2tp, it takes 16 hits to reach 100tp. So it takes about 10.136 seconds to WS.

If I'm correct an E.Bow RNG with 25% SS, and a 5 hit build (20tp per shot), has a 367 delay. 4 shots needed to reach 100tp after WS. So 24.468 seconds between WSs, but since there's no Auto Ranged attack, it's actually a bit longer.

You end up doing about 2.5 more WSs with MK, but at the cost of pretty much all of your DoT. This is of course on Birds, where you can easily cap ACC, so I didn't figure in ACC to just give an Idealized amount.

6% if you include the shield

It might be more of burden on mp though~





Edited, Jan 12th 2010 4:03pm by Deadonarrival