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Merc Kris for TP?Follow

#1 Nov 20 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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I figured I would start my own topic because I am on tech support with U-Verse.

Anyways, I got bored and saved up for a Merc Kris to melee for TP when I get Corsair up to level. I am curious is the Kris with fully dagger merits is worth the melee on RNG? I have a decent(not super fantastic) haste set also. Something like 12-13% haste. Just curious.
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#2 Nov 20 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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You'd be on perma sushi and gain half the TP of a k club... I have an M Kris myself for COR, I'll go try and ***** around with it on RNG.

From the gear I have, right now it would look like my melee TP set would be

Turban
PCC
Osode (=/ Bum me 15m and it could be skadi)
Dusk hands
Rajas/Sniper's +1
Swift Belt
Haidate
Skadi Feet

Just from first glances and impressions, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this isn't gonna work well.
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#3 Nov 20 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I was curious, I use it mostly for Campaign and /dnc solo breaking gun. Thanks for the info.

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Edited, Nov 20th 2009 3:47pm by Saneporro
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41 WHM / 36 BLM / 37 SAM / 54 DNC / 30 DRG /
24 BLU / 33 COR / 24 PLD / 21 MNK / 23 RDM /
24 DRK / 12 SMN / 18 SCH / 33 PUP / 24 BRD /
100+3 Alchemy / 60 Woodworking / 55 Goldsmithing / 54 Smithing / Cooking 60
Merits: (All solo)
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1 Marksmanship
2 Evasion
1 Triple Attack
1 Aura Steal

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#4 Nov 20 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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RNG most certainly does not need sushi for M.Kris. RNG has 22 more accuracy with dagger than a THF main.
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#5 Nov 20 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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According to FFXI calculator, my accuracy would only be 72.6% on a level 82 337 evasion mob without food. You need 407 to cap accuracy on birds, and with that set up I would have roughly 360.2.

I'd guesstimate you would need at least 80%+ to make it a worthwhile endeavor over /ra with a decent amount of snapshot (capped merits, ACP body). I would need to come up another 20ish accuracy (body being the big one), but I don't know where to draw the line between accuracy and haste for RNG.

Meaning I would most likely need sushi in order to keep my TP build going, but that would sacrifice my WS damage a fair bit.

With amazing gear I could see it being worthwhile. But with amazing gear, might as well buy a k club.

Edit: Added note that COR is on perma sushi as well with M Kris, which in my case only nets me an average ~85% accuracy on bird parses.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 5:18pm by Weakness
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#6 Nov 20 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, it's true that virtually every melee can benefit from sushi if they are trying to cap accuracy and maintain max haste. All that I meant was that MK RNG is no more married to sushi than any other melee.
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#7 Nov 20 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
TP Per Hit: 5.2%


What sub are we talking about using here as well? /sam, /war or /nin?


With E.bow + /sam 17% tp gain per shot so youre going to have to hit atleast 3 hits per ranged attack cycle, which shouldnt be that hard when the 3rd attack procs. Fully hasted gear and magical, i see it boosting tp gain slightly, however, overall youre going to be missing out on regular ratt dmg, and in a bird situation, we're talking 400ish dmg per hit, NOT to mention to gain max haste youre going to need 2 x march, which means youre not going to have 2 x minuet (usually). The mkris would have gain some very very serious tp > ranged attacks to compensate for the damage loss of ratt's.

Also, in the accuracy issue, account for hunter's roll, you shouldnt have to even look at sushi then.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 8:26pm by Aryden
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#8 Nov 20 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Well for what its worth, if your in a situation where your not getting minuets (90%+ of all merits PT's) then it might be viable. A single BRD isn't going to have time to stop and sing special songs for a lone RNG, their busy with pulling and doing 3~4 buffs already. Also if your meleeing then the mage should be hasting you, that is a very large chunk of haste for TP gain.

W.Turban
PCC
Hollow + Diablos for your ears (can RNG use assault or fowling?)
P.Body is +10 Acc (also +R.Acc if you happen to need it)
Dusk hands
Rajas + Snipers(+1) / Toreadors (which ever you have)
Cuch.Mantle / A.Mantle (whichever you have)
Swift
Kitty Pants
Dusk Feet

Gear Haste is 19%
Spell is 15%
Song is 20%
For a total of 54%, 100/46 = 2.173 (217% increase in swing speed).

RNG has 200 Club skill and 240 Dagger skill. +48 Acc in JT
Assuming dagger merits (if you have them from THF or DNC)
250 acc from skill + 48 from JT = 298 (dagger)
214 acc from skill + 48 from JT = 262 (club)

Basically if its possible for K.club then its possible for M.Kris. As for actual TP gain vs a RNG/SAM Archery. I don't really know how that would boil down. But one of the side benefits is that you don't need to worry about pulling the monster away from the melee's, or holding TP to "finish it off". Hmm if you could get ahold of enough cannon shells... try that setup just for ******
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#9 Nov 21 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I have experimented with this in merits once. My setup is:

MK/ /Hellfire+1/Silver bullets
Turban /Love torque/Diablos' /minuet
Avalon /Dusk gloves/Toreador's/Toreador's
Cuchulain's/Swift belt /Byakko's /Enkidu's

I plan on doing more testing with it, it didn't perform too badly (a little higher than a well geared GK SAM). Will include some numbers once I test it more.
#10 Nov 21 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Well for what its worth, if your in a situation where your not getting minuets (90%+ of all merits PT's) then it might be viable. A single BRD isn't going to have time to stop and sing special songs for a lone RNG, their busy with pulling and doing 3~4 buffs already. Also if your meleeing then the mage should be hasting you, that is a very large chunk of haste for TP gain.


again, i have not ever had an issue with getting 2x minuet in a meripo as rng, and other DD's dont complain about it either. We've already had the long drawn out discussion about brds in meripos with Rng's.

Even without minuet, i'm still doing 300 +/- 20 per hit on a bird, the Mkris is going to have to hit a **** of alot to compensate for that.
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#11 Nov 21 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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A single BRD is doing the following,
March x 2
Ballad II, possibly Ballad I
Pulling / Sleeping monster.

If in a good PT they don't have time for a Ballad I on the mage, how exactly are they going to have time for special songs for a RNG? If its a group of RNG's in a arrowburn setup, then I can see them doing Min instead of March. Or if you have two BRD's one the backline one is doing your Min x 2 songs. But a single BRD isn't buffing the RNG with special songs, there simply isn't enough time available.

For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.
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lolgaxe wrote:
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#12 Nov 22 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that.


What are you trying to say?

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#13 Nov 22 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.


Wait... what?

If you're arguing against k club, you're just an idiot. Otherwise I have no idea what the **** you're babbling about.

I stick with my initial statement, you gain half the TP of a k club and give up just as much to make a proper melee build. So, still gambling on not worth it.
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#14 Nov 22 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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When I owned a Mkris, my /RA build put up better DoT.
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#15 Nov 22 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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The question is not whether M.Kris will deal more melee damage than ranged attacks. It obviously will not.

We know for a fact that KC will definitely deal more net damage than /ra RNG, by a wide margin (even though KC itself deals less melee damage than ranged attacks). So the question is whether or not M.Kris will deliver enough net damage to beat /ra RNG. Will it match KC RNG? Of course not. But there's a huge gap in between KC RNG and /ra RNG, and if M.Kris falls anywhere in that huge gap, it's worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very good chance that you won't have any minuets at all (unless you have 2 BRDs or multiple RNGs), which definitely affects the comparison. A M.Kris loss with no Marches could easily turn into a win with 2 Marches and no Minuets.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 12:18pm by redvenomweb
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#16 Nov 25 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.
----------------------------


here's your answers

Quote:
The question is not whether M.Kris will deal more melee damage than ranged attacks. It obviously will not.

We know for a fact that KC will definitely deal more net damage than /ra RNG, by a wide margin (even though KC itself deals less melee damage than ranged attacks). So the question is whether or not M.Kris will deliver enough net damage to beat /ra RNG. Will it match KC RNG? Of course not. But there's a huge gap in between KC RNG and /ra RNG, and if M.Kris falls anywhere in that huge gap, it's worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very good chance that you won't have any minuets at all (unless you have 2 BRDs or multiple RNGs), which definitely affects the comparison. A M.Kris loss with no Marches could easily turn into a win with 2 Marches and no Minuets.



Exactly the point, is using an mkris and losing out on the damage from your /ra for an increase in ws's beat out a standard 5 hit /ra build. I just highly doubt it. With a K.club we're talking up to 8 hits, with an average of 4 i believe thats massive tp gain as opposed to the kris, they arent even in the same ballpark there.


I say we get 2 ****-naked mithran rangers out in bhaflau, give one an mkris and the other a mekki, have them use HF +1's and let them parse at each other for an hour.



Edited, Nov 25th 2009 2:30pm by Aryden
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#17 Nov 25 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A single BRD is doing the following,
March x 2
Ballad II, possibly Ballad I
Pulling / Sleeping monster.

If in a good PT they don't have time for a Ballad I on the mage, how exactly are they going to have time for special songs for a RNG? If its a group of RNG's in a arrowburn setup, then I can see them doing Min instead of March. Or if you have two BRD's one the backline one is doing your Min x 2 songs. But a single BRD isn't buffing the RNG with special songs, there simply isn't enough time available.



And again, we've already had this debate. That thinking is not conducive to good pt play. If you have a mixed group of DD's, with high ws dmg output, cranking it up with minuet is a good idea, and yes march does as well, but march will not benefit ALL of your dd's, so the logical choice is to use what best for the entire party, even if its minuet + march. Regardless, Rng isnt one of those jobs that absolutely has to have abcxyz songs/rolls/buffs to do what we do, so when we get them, its great, if we dont get them, well it just gives everyone else a chance to catch up.
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#18 Nov 25 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aryden wrote:
And again, we've already had this debate. That thinking is not conducive to good pt play. If you have a mixed group of DD's, with high ws dmg output, cranking it up with minuet is a good idea, and yes march does as well, but march will not benefit ALL of your dd's, so the logical choice is to use what best for the entire party, even if its minuet + march.

The more logical choice would be to replace the RNG with another melee DD.

RNG and melee DD do not mix very well without 2 support jobs.
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#19 Nov 25 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?
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#20 Nov 26 2009 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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So basically, the answer I have is yes it could be viable, but it couldn't?

As for sub-job, I would probably be using /nin due to pulling hate with ws. The only merit I really see to using the M. Kris based off of the discussion is the lack of pulling hate from too many shots or ws. Which has been a constant problem whenever I do actually party.

Granted I have not been in a party since camo got the buff (although I doubt it is that much of a change).

But regardless, thank you all for your answers, I figure I will hold on to my M.Kris if for anything, just to have. I don't really need much leet gear since I have decent AH gear for all my jobs I play (soro onry for the most part). But once again, thank you all for your answers.
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41 WHM / 36 BLM / 37 SAM / 54 DNC / 30 DRG /
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#21 Nov 27 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadonarrival wrote:
It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?

RVW's statement implied there should be at least 2 support in order to get (/ra) RNG working in merit party.

I myself tend to see 3.5 support job is the optimal one (at least, before I stopped playing on late Feb).
#22 Nov 27 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I see BRD, (a good)COR, & (5/5Haste Samba) DNC as optimal with 2 pimp DD's.
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#23 Dec 01 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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BRD RDM COR and a DNC focusing on voking/DD/haste samba, not healing.
#24 Dec 02 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just reminding some posters that Minuets do virtually nothing for Sams "beefy" WS. Gekko doubles the atk value for their WS making minuets overkill for more than half of their total damage. Also, almost any good DD with war in the main or sub MIGHT get full use out of 1 min with zerk up 60% of the time depending on gear and use of Dia/box step on mobs. Sam/war really has almost no need for minuets except for melee damage when zerk is down. Considering ~60% of their damage is WS and they have zerk for 60% of the time.....their melee portion when zerk is down is .....16% of their total damage. Not worth a Minuet.

If you really want your minuets in a 1brd party, you could probably convince some Drg/sam, Thf/Nins, Mnk/nin or other 1handed jobs do go for march/min and more specifically a combo without war or /war in it for zerk. The second min isnt nearly strong enough to warrent its use over march for any DDs that know what haste gear is just to help out a lone rng in a party.

Multiple support jobs, go for it, but double min for single brd is really a terrible choice for any well-equiped melee. The second min (and sometimes 1st min) is either useless at worst or vastly overpowered by march at best.



Edited, Dec 2nd 2009 12:29pm by Banalaty
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#25 Dec 02 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok so not far off from what I've been doing. I will say that I was ignorant and completely missed haste samba's advantage.

Hunters/March/Minuet/W/E

In that order is what I prefer my buffs.
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#26 Dec 02 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are talking about merit parties, there's a good chance that you're fighting birds, in which case Minuet is always relevant (no sane SAM would use GKT on birds).
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#27 Dec 03 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)
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#28 Dec 03 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?


Yes but its amazing how rarely PUG meripo leaders get this concept. I've been sole support in many a meripo of late. Yet I always tell them to replace a leaving DD with another support job and they go, "but we already have a COR!"

Best parties I've been in for meripo always are COR + BRD + RDM and I've some rocking bird parties with BRD + COR + DNC.
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#29 Dec 03 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Multi support are always "ideal" but at least on my server, even if you are creating it yourself, they just arent around for a PUG. Its usually DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD....maybe 1 brd in the lfp list. LS parties are a bit more reliable as you can con people with support jobs into playing, but sometimes even that is a hard sell since many people with brd just dont like playing it because they are either burned out on it (Brd4life!) or the never liked it much to start with but leveled it anyway for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the utter lack of a Cor population.

I guess i have always considered 1 support the standard, two as a rare gift (and extremely welcome). I think I have been in probably ~10 double support parties in my ~5 years here. Different experiences for every person, but thats mine.

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#30 Dec 03 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I haven't taken a meripo party in the past years w/o a second support job. Alot of people on my server will just say no to invites.
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#31 Dec 04 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)



Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

All i can say is try it out, I have yet to have anyone other than a nin complain about getting 2 x minuet in a meripo on birds (and i was the nin that complained) brds sometimes complain about doing 2x minuet instead of march, but then they see the drg or myself drop a bird from 70% to dead in 1 ws, and they keep singing their merry minuets all day.
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#32 Dec 04 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Aryden wrote:
Quote:
Ah touche'. I easily forget that since I still have yet to ever merit with a GOOD polearm sam. Or even a decent one really that I can recall. I have really been curious how a proper polearm sam holds up to my drg.

Anyway, but the point still stands that DOUBLE min is generally a terrible idea for melees over at least min/march. 1 min vs 2nd march isnt that bad for avg melees. As melees get better, the second march starts to overpower it pretty bad. The better the melees, the less appealing min gets. (also closely tied to how many war/wars there are and the use of Box/Dia/Angon spams)



Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

All i can say is try it out, I have yet to have anyone other than a nin complain about getting 2 x minuet in a meripo on birds (and i was the nin that complained) brds sometimes complain about doing 2x minuet instead of march, but then they see the drg or myself drop a bird from 70% to dead in 1 ws, and they keep singing their merry minuets all day.

It's just an alternative. Remember when the old days of arrowburn in Ru'Avitau? Everything is spike damage. People know how to juggle when to spike when to reserve (Barrage and WS). Also a well-buffed polearm SAM will have enough attack to make the last few extra attack DRG have become minimal in term of WS damage.

Also.. idk if you wanna compare SAM/WAR 5-hit polearm with SAM/DRG with no berserk or SAM/WAR with 1-less hit to hit 100TP (I think?)
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#33 Dec 04 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
Drg will obliterate even well geared polearm sams on a ws for ws basis, but the polearm sam will dish out more....(i know right, like that had to be explained).

Not sure about that first part. DRG gets a heavy advantage in PLM skill and weapon DMG, but SAM/WAR will absolutely murder DRG/SAM in ATK (Overwhelm+'zerk).

Here is a parse I did a while ago with an elite SAM and DRG (Failure = SAM, Avelle = DRG, me = RNG), in which SAM actually outdamaged DRG in average WS damage. And, in my experience, that's not entirely uncommon.
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#34 Dec 04 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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what subs were all of you using?

Which polearms were they using?

What food were they using?

Noticed the sam had a much higher crit rate 6% ish which seems to make up the majority of what he parsed over the drg. The sam was doing roughly 100 points on average more than the drg on average ws.

(6% higher crit rate, i have to assume kitty pants were involved)

Oh and i assume you are Terra, since i dont know your character name. What was your sub and why did you parse so low?

And why was the drg the only person in the pt to take any damage?

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 5:06pm by Aryden
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#35 Dec 04 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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what subs were all of you using?
SAM/WAR, DRG/SAM, RNG/SAM

Which polearms were they using?
SAM-Tomoe, DRG-Thalassocrat

What food were they using?
SAM was using crab sushi, I imagine DRG was eating mithkabobs but I'm not sure. I was eating blackened frog to start, then pot-au-feu.

Quote:
Noticed the sam had a much higher crit rate 6% ish which seems to make up the majority of what he parsed over the drg. The sam was doing roughly 100 points on average more than the drg on average ws.

I'd imagine that the 47 extra WS the same did over the DRG had an impact on the outcome, as well.

Quote:
(6% higher crit rate, i have to assume kitty pants were involved)

Of course, why wouldn't they be?

Quote:
Oh and i assume you are Terra, since i dont know your character name. What was your sub and why did you parse so low?

I parsed "so low" (i.e. ~0.5% behind DRG's direct damage) because I'm a /ra RNG with ~35% snapshot while they are 2h melees with ~65% haste.

Quote:
And why was the drg the only person in the pt to take any damage?

DRG was the one who parsed it, and likely had Damage Taken By Party filtered.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:11pm by redvenomweb
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#36 Dec 04 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not sure about that first part. DRG gets a heavy advantage in PLM skill and weapon DMG, but SAM/WAR will absolutely murder DRG/SAM in ATK (Overwhelm+'zerk).


I thought that overwhelm was an FTP mod, not an atk mod on WS. If its FTP, it does little for penta. Also, I have never seen a polearm sam on birds that doesnt need mad or sushi. Not exactly sure what the acc of a 6hit polearm sam potential is off the top of my head, but im pretty sure 5hit wont work without an acc buff.

It always worked out pretty even in my head. Sam/war with sushi gets good acc+zerk for atk. Drg/sam gets atk from meat and acc from being accurate :P (<3 A+ pole and 22acc bonus). Both swing 6hits. Drg gets 60tp med and jumps which counters sam med for overall damage. Both get hasso. It always seemed pretty even to me on paper. I dont really expect one to blow out the other if players of similar calibur unless buffs favor one over the other significantly (i to you madriga/hunters roll -_-).

But I havent studied sam extensively so its quite possible my assumptions are a little off.

As a side not i REALLY FRIGGIN HATE madrigal/hunters in merits. Im at ~94% hit rate on the higher lv birds. It impossible for me to drop enough gear to remotely use mad/hunters without dropping haste gear.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 7:05pm by Banalaty
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#37 Dec 04 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
I thought that overwhelm was an FTP mod, not an atk mod on WS.

Overwhelm is an ATK bonus, which means that SAM/WAR has (19% + (25% * 3/5)) = 34% ATK bonus on WS that DRG doesn't get.

Quote:
Also, I have never seen a polearm sam on birds that doesnt need mad or sushi.

SAM needs sushi, but unless DRG is spamming red curry buns on birds, it's still going to be left behind.

Quote:
It always worked out pretty even in my head. Sam/war with sushi gets good acc+zerk for atk. Drg/sam gets atk from meat and acc from being accurate :P (<3 A+ pole and 22acc bonus). Both swing 6hits. Drg gets 60tp med and jumps which counters sam med for overall damage. Both get hasso. It always seemed pretty even to me on paper.

1) PLM SAM is 5-hit, not 6-hit like DRG
2) Jump and High Jump do not really "break even" with 80% extra TP from SAM main Meditate

BTW, songs for that party were March2/March1/Minuet4/Minuet3 on melee and Min4/Min3/Min2/Herc.Etude for me.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 4:28pm by redvenomweb
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#38 Dec 04 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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The atk bonus on overwhelm certainly gets me thinking.

But anyway, Drg gets 3 jumps (jumpx2 and high) over the same span as med (can be merited down to the same ratio as sam merited med also). If going 6hit build, thats 50 tp and they do damage. Id say the damage of 3 jumps more than makes up for 30 tp and they can DA/Crit etc for more damage/TP. Also its harder to waste TP on jumps compared to med as they are spread out. Less overshooting. Minor point but still.

For the meat vs zerk i was going for the full time but less atk vs spikey zerk up/down atk. With say, subs i have like 503 atk TP and 555 in WS/jump. I cant imagine a Sam has more base atk than a drg gearing for 5hit stp gear and much lower polearm skill. Guessing around 400ish probably based on merits. zerk adds 100 atk or "60" for the 60% avg. Even with minuets boosting the effect of zerk but not my food, 2x min is ~100 atk. so about 500 base for sam 600+ for drg. Zerk up 625ish. 60% drops it to about the same over time. Of course both have more atk in WS gear etc and these are rather gross estimations, but I just dont see where same really powers ahead after acc food and lower skill since zerk is only 60%. If they have similar levels of gear, i dont really see sam running away in the atk department. And find it really kinda impossible to make up everything if they dont have polearm merits. But since were talking "competative" I will assume merits on the sam, though in reality not many have them.

Then again, I have ares body, heca legs and some otherwise good gear for my atk levels.

But anyway, this is why i need to just find a good sam. Im tired of theory crafting this setup in my head and im to lazy to really put some real numbers and give it an in depth analysis :P
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#39 Dec 04 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ultimately, it boils down to this (and the parse reflects it):

-5-hit vs. 6-hit is major advantage to SAM
-Overwhelm + 'zerk puts SAM equal-or-better on avg. WS damage
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#40 Dec 05 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd really just want to see all 3 player's gear choices in that pt. I havent seen any sam "run away" on a parse like that unless they just completely outclassed everyone in the pt in gear.
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#41 Dec 05 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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My WS gear:
http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/rngstr.jpg

TP changes:
Osode -> Snap+5/RATK+10 Mirke
Wyvern Helm -> Zha'Go's Barbut
Seiryu's Kote -> Crimson Finger Gauntlets
Light Gorget -> Qiqirn Collar

max marksmanship/crit/rapid shot/snapshot merits, 4/5 STR merits

Failure wrote:
Me:
TP-
Tomoe|Pole|Lightning+1
Turban|PCC|Fowling|Brutal
Usu|Dusk|Rajas|Iota
Cuch|Swift|Byakko|Usu

WS changes -
Hissho, Shadow Gorget
Haub+1, Myochin+1
Warwolf, Usu

Was using Crab Sushi. Using Usu body for a true 5hit, @#%^ feather tickle.
4 Pole merits, 5 str, 5stp, 5 meditate, 5 overwhelm, 4bash, 1 shiki.

Avelle (mostly guesses, but I'd say it'll all be right but 1-2 items):
TP-
Thallaso|Pole|Tiphia
Turban|PCC|Assault|Brutal
Askar|Homam|Rajas|(Iota or Uthalam)
Cuch|Swift|Homam|Homam
WS-
Wyvern|Gorget
Heca|Heca
Warwolf|Ares|Heca

He's using Askar for the 6hit. I could be off on some of this, but I -think- that's what he uses. He has Full Ares, may use a helm on WS? Really dunno. I know he wants a better WS helm. Also, I'm not sure on Cuch/Forager's. He owns both, I'm not sure where/when he uses which atm.
He has 5 str, 8 pole, 5 jump/high jump, not sure on G2.

Both melee were fulltime Hasso on birds, though switched to Seigan if we had hate on a Wivre.

I think you underestimate how strong SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM are in meripo compared to the rest of the cast.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 1:36pm by redvenomweb
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#42 Dec 06 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
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Nope i surely do not, However, i tend to not see "run away" parses like that unless its when 1 person completely outclasses the others. Dont get me wrong, i am a huge fan of DD's going back to subbing war instead of nin and being pussies, so, atleast this is something i can show to people and say "this works dumbass"

and *SLAP* finish your **** str merit(s)......

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:36pm by Aryden
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#43 Jan 11 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Howdy,

I've just been leveling RNG for Maat's so my perspective is definitely not merits/endgame/etc.

I have just finished an exp party level sync63 with SAM/WARx2 RNG/SAM BRD RDM RNG/NIN (me).

I used fran/mkris the other rng used fire staff.

I'm not going to post all the figures because it becomes messy. Overall damage was:
- SAM/WAR: 16.71 %
- RNG/SAM: 24.01 %
- SAM/WAR: 26.52 %
- mkris RNG/NIN (me): 32.05 %

Overall I had 78.06% acc and 90.28% racc (with prelude and sushi).

The other rng had similar racc (~86%) and higher base damage.

The main difference between our builds was that I used spike earring x2 and lifebelt, one snipers and TP'd in j. peti where as he had the typical RNG agi/racc stuff.

We were both using sushi (although I dont think he was as religious with his which accounts for the difference in racc which really should be in his favor).

Overall, there is a significant difference in our figures (with me doing an extra 20% dmg) which I contribute to:
1. I used WS much much more often than him (43/9 vs 27/10).
2. He actually shot less arrows than me because some of the time when he took hate, he would wait for someone else to get hate then run back to pummeling range where as I was hitting everything from melee rng

Overall its not as good a comparison as I had hoped because of our different play styles (distanced vs melee range) but I have three main thoughts.

1. Mkris seems to be a stronger choice at this level assuming
- You have enough acc and enough att that you dont constantly hit for 0 (i had over 100 melee attacks before my first 0 dmg hit)
- You macro in your racc/agi gear for WS and barrage
2. Overall effectiveness is reduced by another rng in a pt who pulls the mob away from you (normally more of my TP comes from melee than it did in this pt)... When you are running, you cant shoot. This is true for the entire party which is why I prefer to shoot from melee distance so to not reduce the dot of other DD whilst they chase after me.
3. Convince your RDM that you deserve haste (if they have the spare mp). I have pt'd with one of these sams at this camp before and beat him by an extra ~6% when I had haste.

So, not a perfect trial but very interesting nonetheless.

Cheers,
Thick.



Edit: Removing full table of figures for clarity.




Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:09am by Thickskin

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:10am by Thickskin
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#44 Jan 11 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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Thickskin wrote:


I used fran/mkris the other rng used fire staff.






Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:09am by Thickskin

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 12:10am by Thickskin



Just go ahead and drop your axe if you are gonna melee.


I always kinda frowned on the idea of a kris ranger. But I have to say I've done quite well being a kris Cor and rng has several things that would make it even better.

1) more acc/racc from traits
2) more/better haste gear
3) better bullets
4) no 'wasted' time giving buffs or suffering through having evokers roll on
5) barrage (assuming both sub war)
6) more str on WS from gear


I think it could work just fine. It is optimal? No. But for optimal you will be using club or job changing anyways.
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#45 Jan 12 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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"barberofSeville" wrote:
Just go ahead and drop your axe if you are gonna melee.


Actually I just read another post about this, interesting idea.

I must admit, the only reason i was using fransisca was because I hadn't used it before (other than skilling up archery on war).

I guess with fransisca, i feel like I'm trading off 4 STR and 3att for 7racc and more frequent WS but if i was using just an mkris I would need to store a bit more TP before WS (which i would get quicker) at the cost of less TP from ranged attack and even lower dot/WS damage. I suppose mkris only would be even better again but not sure how to do the math. The best bit is I could sub WAR (assuming i could stay alive).

This raises a question that I have thought a lot about. I have read somewhere that sidewinder has about -40 racc. My WS gear has about an extra 20 racc and I feel like at 120% TP I have the same accuracy with sidewinder as my racc in TP build (though I can't actually parse this as I cannot record how much TP I have at the time of WS).

Has there been any analysis on how the extra TP above 100% affects the accuracy of sidewinder? Eyeballing it (not reliable i know), it seems to me like 1 extra TP gives 1 extra WS Acc... is this a stupid theory?

I assume there have been discussions on sidewinder before but couldn't find any... sorry in advance if I'm blind.
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#46 Jan 12 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Parsing against other people is not an accurate way of measuring something's worth.


Parse yourself for 50 mobs, then parse yourself with mkris for 50 mobs. Because I bet even if you were using normal Ratt setup like the other Rng, you'd still outparse him.

Outparsing some random pickup member means literally nothing. I'm sure someonewill explain if you don't know why,
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#47 Jan 12 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
more str on WS from gear


Do you realy have more STR on WS from RNG than COR?
Apart from kirin's osode and wyvern helm, I don't see where COR gets less STR gear than RNG.

COR gets warwolf belt or commodore belt, Alky, Cor bottes +1, which RNG can't wear. RNG gets osode and wyvern helm which COR can't wear. That's 20 STR for COR and 15 STR for RNG. And the COR's substitutes for osode and wyvern helm offer 9 STR (mirke and WS anwig) whereas a RNG substitutes for the unique COR STR gear offers 2 STR (RK belt +1) at best.

The only argument I can see favoring RNG is the fact that you can use more STR gear in a slugshot macro because of the better ranged accuracy of A- skill and ACC bonus trait IV. But arguably a COR could make up for that with martial gun TP bonus and Hunters Roll.

But an M Kris RNG on merit stuff would likely parse fine, just not as good as K club RNG and likely similar to an arrow spamming RNG. But personally I levelled RNG because I like ranged attacks. If I wanted to melee on RNG i'd have levelled a different job.
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#48 Jan 12 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
And the COR's substitutes for osode and wyvern helm offer 9 STR (mirke and WS anwig) whereas a RNG substitutes for the unique COR STR gear offers 2 STR (RK belt +1) at best.
Skadi's Bazubands. Buccaneer's Belt, etc.
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#49 Jan 12 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Forgive me for Theory crafting.

On my server, BRD/BRD or BRD/COR is the ONLY way any merit pt will leave Whitegate, so I'll use March x2 + Minuet x2 as party buffs as it's the base amount you'll get in any merit pt here.

RNG/DRG is the absolute best combo for MK or KC RNGs in my honest opinion. The 5% haste from wyvern earring, and extra TP from jumps make it the absolute best for rapid TP gain.

25% haste in gear (1/5/5/3/4/5/2), 20% marches, 15% Haste spell.

This means the RNG/DRG has 60% haste, giving them a 76 Delay, with a weapon averaging 2 swings per round, for 5.2 tp a hit. Assuming WS returns 17.2tp, it takes 16 hits to reach 100tp. So it takes about 10.136 seconds to WS.

If I'm correct an E.Bow RNG with 25% SS, and a 5 hit build (20tp per shot), has a 367 delay. 4 shots needed to reach 100tp after WS. So 24.468 seconds between WSs, but since there's no Auto Ranged attack, it's actually a bit longer.

You end up doing about 2.5 more WSs with MK, but at the cost of pretty much all of your DoT. This is of course on Birds, where you can easily cap ACC, so I didn't figure in ACC to just give an Idealized amount.
#50 Jan 12 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Skadi's Bazubands. Buccaneer's Belt, etc.


Well those do get the STR up to 9 but I was thinking most RNG would be using Seiryu's Kote and Scout's belt which offer good AGI but no STR.

Still i don't see where a RNG has "more STR options" than COR. My RNG WS build can't touch my detonator build on COR for STR. It's like +45 to +32.



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#51 Jan 12 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The 5% haste from wyvern earring,


6% if you include the shield

It might be more of burden on mp though~





Edited, Jan 12th 2010 4:03pm by Deadonarrival
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