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Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009) Follow

#52 Oct 16 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
SE wrote:
Rangers with this ability (Camouflage) in effect will incur less enmity for ranged attacks. There will be a chance that the ability remains in effect even after a ranged attack, depending on your position relative to your target.
Its like Trick Attack with arrows. And no second person.


It doesn't force a critical or transfer enmity so no it's not.

They should have made it similar to Hide and Super Jump. If the mob is looking at you it removes your enmity.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#53 Oct 16 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Assuming that the enmity reduction is enough to elevate RNG out of it's current outcast status that will also put Yoichinoyumi and Annihilator in the same category as Ragnarok. The only reason to use the ranged relic WS is reduced enmity. Without that they are only slightly better than the v-bow and Hellfire +1

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Let me ask you a question: when the updates for Shield Mastery and Reprisal came out, were you saying, "These updates make Aegis worthless!"? Or were you saying that an update which makes an average piece of gear good will make a good piece of gear great?

If the enmity adjustments are strong enough to let HF+1/O-bow/E-bow users act like relic wielders, it will let relic wielders act like completely unhinged maniacs.

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#54 Oct 16 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:

Quote:

Ranged Attack Adjustments
- Ranged attack enmity
Less enmity will be incurred the further away you are from the target of your ranged attacks.


Because you will miss and thus gain less enmity.



I laughed.
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#55 Oct 16 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Default
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redvenomweb wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Assuming that the enmity reduction is enough to elevate RNG out of it's current outcast status that will also put Yoichinoyumi and Annihilator in the same category as Ragnarok. The only reason to use the ranged relic WS is reduced enmity. Without that they are only slightly better than the v-bow and Hellfire +1

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Let me ask you a question: when the updates for Shield Mastery and Reprisal came out, were you saying, "These updates make Aegis worthless!"? Or were you saying that an update which makes an average piece of gear good will make a good piece of gear great?

If the enmity adjustments are strong enough to let HF+1/O-bow/E-bow users act like relic wielders, it will let relic wielders act like completely unhinged maniacs.



Not really because Namas Arrow actually sucks compared to Sidewinder.

If a v-bow user can spam Sidewinder at 100% TP and not pull hate then he's going to be doing only slightly less damage than a Yoichi user due to Sidewinder's higher damage and the v-bow's lower delay. That would place it in the same category as Ragnarok.



Edited, Oct 16th 2009 7:40am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#56 Oct 16 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
we are not premium at meripo.


that is because people are stupid in this game.
it is also because bards only haste people and dont give ranger double attack

so ranger does not do well because support jobs are lazy, and people in ffxi can't think for themselves.

When I merit on ranger I easily keep up with everyone, and thats without the buffs that I need, and I am still holding back alot.

If I had a way of gathering less hate, I doubt many if any job can hold up to a ranger/war with double attack on birds. Just with /nin sub and one bard sony I averaged in a parser 1800 dmg sides at mamool camp, hitting 2500 on puks and 1600 on mamools. with war sub that averaged would have jumped to about 2200 dmg.

that is part of the hope I have for this patch that we can go /war sub, and not have to hold back sides just for kill shot, which is usually at 50% hp.

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#57 Oct 16 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Not really because Namas Arrow actually sucks compared to Sidewinder.

If a v-bow user can spam Sidewinder at 100% TP and not pull hate then he's going to be doing only slightly less damage than a Yoichi user due to Sidewinder's higher damage and the v-bow's lower delay. That would place it in the same category as Ragnarok.

First of all, against anything that matters, pulling hate is a question of when, not if. So your observation has a fundamental flaw: relic users can still go longer without getting hate, regardless of the new enmity changes.

I also notice that you did not mention Coronach; presumably because the aftermath would seem to rather obviously make a difference.
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#58 Oct 16 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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The whole purpose of Campaign is to gain xp. Therefore a job that doesn't gain xp as well as others is not good at campaign. That was my original complaint. We are a job that does good damage against kited mobs and can hold out own in a zerg. We are not a top tier meripo, campaign or solo job.


as solo, yes, my LS however does campaign for the purpose of taking over and /or keeping areas under national control. Get in slaughter, go to the next area.

Quote:
If the enmity adjustments are strong enough to let HF+1/O-bow/E-bow users act like relic wielders, it will let relic wielders act like completely unhinged maniacs.


Thank you.


Yes Namas may suck, however the enmity reduction should allow a Yoichi user the ability to use sidewinder with a more powerful bow than E/V and still garner less hate, which is always a beautiful thing.

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 1:57pm by Aryden
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#59 Oct 16 2009 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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that is part of the hope I have for this patch that we can go /war sub, and not have to hold back sides just for kill shot, which is usually at 50% hp.


I doubt very much SE is going to reduce enm so much that a RNG/WAR can go full out and not get hate.

My modest hope for the patch is so I can go /NIN or /SAM and not have to hold back and not get the mob moved. **** I go COR/DNC to a lot of meripos and still get far too much hate for my liking. If this change works for COR's I'm very happy.

But I'm all for SE giving RNG a super-buff enm reduction. I just don't see that happening. I suspect we'll still be "kilshot" meripo jobs unless we want to **** everyone else off.
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#60 Oct 16 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the part about the further away the less hate.
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#61 Oct 16 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

we are not premium at meripo.

that is because people are stupid in this game.
it is also because bards only haste people and dont give ranger double attack


i disagree with that statement. rngs outside of subjob and a 5 min timer have no quick way to gain tp. Haste dont effect rng attacks and snapstop is laughable since theres no auto rng attack.

rngs just cant keep up with haste, triple attack or double attack job traits, kick attacks, and jumps that all the other melees have access to.

and also i use my bard for merits, between buffing and pulling theres really no time to sing 5 songs between pulls. songs take forever to sing when 2 ws can pretty much kill a bird.
#62 Oct 16 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Default
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Aryden wrote:


Yes Namas may suck, however the enmity reduction should allow a Yoichi user the ability to use sidewinder with a more powerful bow than E/V and still garner less hate, which is always a beautiful thing.


It would be considered a lolrelic for the same reason Ragnarok is. If you aren't using the relic WS it's really only marginally better than a v-bow.

It is absolutely not worth dumping 180 million gil into a weapon that only does marginally more damage than the next best option. Apocalypse, Mandau, Aegis, and Yoichi are all considered worth it because they are much, much better than anything else in their class. Weapons like Ragnarok and Kikoku are considered "lolrelics" because their only value is their marginally better DPS.

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 9:50pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#63 Oct 16 2009 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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RACC+100 is not particularly difficult


ya but +100 racc is about equivalent to +3 acc
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#64 Oct 17 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It is absolutely not worth dumping 180 million gil into a weapon that only does marginally more damage than the next best option. Apocalypse, Mandau, Aegis, and Yoichi are all considered worth it because they are much, much better than anything else in their class. Weapons like Ragnarok and Kikoku are considered "lolrelics" because their only value is their marginally better DPS.


The only reason to get a relic is for status. There is nothing in this game that can't beat with proper strategy and top rare/ex gear. Maybe when relics first came out they were "OMG broken". But with todays gear, todays merit abilities and todays jobs, any decent player group can take out most everything but PW and AV and relics aren't the answer against those mobs.

Quote:
ya but +100 racc is about equivalent to +3 acc


I know you are exaggerating some but it is so true. I put up +64 RACC in gear (+48 from Acc trait IV) on lesser gods in Sky and still miss half my slugs with sushi. A melee puts up a couple +5 Acc rings, a chiv chain (+5), Swift belt (+3), +10 ACC body for +28 ACC and they barely whiff.

I wish SE would have just redone the RACC calculations on Slugshot. Yes its powerful but it wouldn't break the job just to tone down the Acc penalty a bit.
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#65 Oct 17 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
we are not premium at meripo.


I disagree.
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#66 Oct 17 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree.


Based on? How many RNG's have you seen in meripos? How many times have you merited on RNG?

How can a job that rarely ends up in a meripo be a premium meripo job? If it was a premium job for meripo it should be as frequently seen as SAM, WAR, DRG and DRK.

The fact is, while it can do comparable to superior damage to those "big 4", it has certain disadvantages that lead it to be second class.

Cost is one of the bigger reasons. Why pay for damage when you can get it for free with one of the other 4 jobs.
Poor defense is another. Even if you are meticulous about shadows or 3rd eye, you are going to get hit and you will get hurt more than a WAR/SAM/DRG leading to more MP useage.
Then there is the mob movement issue which can only be ameliorated by either standing in melee range and nerfing damage, or managing your hate and again nerfing your damage.
And finally, many buffs that BRDs and COR's like to use don't help RNG damage. Marches, Madrigals, Fighters Roll are all pointless for the RNG.

Sure none of those things will kill a meripo but they are enough to lead party leaders to think twice about getting a RNG when another of the big 4 is available and cost is enough of an issue to keep RNG's in the closet in favor of a cheaper 75 meripo job.
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#67 Oct 17 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
Aryden wrote:


Yes Namas may suck, however the enmity reduction should allow a Yoichi user the ability to use sidewinder with a more powerful bow than E/V and still garner less hate, which is always a beautiful thing.


It would be considered a lolrelic for the same reason Ragnarok is. If you aren't using the relic WS it's really only marginally better than a v-bow.

It is absolutely not worth dumping 180 million gil into a weapon that only does marginally more damage than the next best option. Apocalypse, Mandau, Aegis, and Yoichi are all considered worth it because they are much, much better than anything else in their class. Weapons like Ragnarok and Kikoku are considered "lolrelics" because their only value is their marginally better DPS.

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 9:50pm by Lobivopis


I'm wondering if you actually understand how these relics work.



Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:13am by Taurusrexx
#68 Oct 17 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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valid points but my ranger still disagrees.
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#69 Oct 17 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm guessing you've never seen these two relics being used. They don't do 'marginally' more damage than other rng weapons. There is nothing really close and we'll have to see if these changes finally make these relic users able to do all they can do.


How much more damage do they do? 50% more? 100% more?

I imagine its closer to 20% more which could be considered marginal by some and broken by others. Given some people's willingness to pay millions in gil for gear that adds 20 damage to slugshot, the concept of value and worth is questionable.

Nonetheless i agree that these RNG updates will not make RNG relic Worthless. But my opinion is that all relic is really status anyways since most endgame activities can be beat with non-relic gear with the right strategies.
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#70 Oct 17 2009 at 9:09 PM Rating: Default
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i always like when i hear haste doesnt affect ranged attacks. So ranger cant keep up in tp.

note, rng should be in melee range on birds and step back for sides, at 75 rngs shoudlnt be losing any dmg on being in melee range, and guess what, haste affects melee swings.

second, when rangers ws does 2 to 3 times as much dmg as other melees so as long as rng can get tp half as fast as melee then there isnt an issue there either.

I have always parsed pretty much at the top of any merit party i have been in, even close to a relic sam.

I will say it again, people are stupid in this game, they listen to what people say, and do not have the ability to think for themselves, this game is a large version of teh telephone game
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#71 Oct 17 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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xbobbobx wrote:
i always like when i hear haste doesnt affect ranged attacks. So ranger cant keep up in tp.

note, rng should be in melee range on birds and step back for sides, at 75 rngs shoudlnt be losing any dmg on being in melee range, and guess what, haste affects melee swings.

second, when rangers ws does 2 to 3 times as much dmg as other melees so as long as rng can get tp half as fast as melee then there isnt an issue there either.

I have always parsed pretty much at the top of any merit party i have been in, even close to a relic sam.

I will say it again, people are stupid in this game, they listen to what people say, and do not have the ability to think for themselves, this game is a large version of teh telephone game



A melee RNG does not match the walking colibri apocalypse that is a well equipped DRG/SAM with Drakesbane. Though that has more to do with Drakesbane being ridiculously broken on birds than anything else.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 2:01am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#72 Oct 18 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
note, rng should be in melee range on birds and step back for sides, at 75 rngs shoudlnt be losing any dmg on being in melee range, and guess what, haste affects melee swings.

second, when rangers ws does 2 to 3 times as much dmg as other melees so as long as rng can get tp half as fast as melee then there isnt an issue there either.

I have always parsed pretty much at the top of any merit party i have been in, even close to a relic sam.


I think a well equipped RNG can keep up with a well equipped Big 4 Frontliner. What I don't think a RNG can do is mitigate damage as well or cost less. If you are spending 50k on ammo in a meripo, you better be the top parser. But given most players are more fiscally responsible than most Alla RNG's, they usually merit on a different (aka cheaper) job.

And of course we are talking birds mostly which isn't the only place meripos happen. When we lose our piercing bonus the loss of haste effect hurts even more. I've never even seen a RNG attempt a meripo on Mamools.

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#73 Oct 19 2009 at 7:04 AM Rating: Default
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I've never even seen a RNG attempt a meripo on Mamools.


I mentioned, that I merited on mamools and had average ws of 1800, and kept up to a relic sam , and I said kept up to before people start crying.

it is all about gettign the right songs from teh bards, if you dont have a lazy bard, ranger can do very well.

and cost isnt an issue, buy a stack of demon horns for 40k, make them into 72 arrowheads for 5k more. Those arrowheads make 24 stacks of arrows for another 15k, for a total of about 60k. Half the price of what ah cost is for arrows.

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#74 Oct 19 2009 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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I still think they need to reduce delays on Ranged attacks, or just lift all the nerfs on RNG in the first place, and PRESTO! Job fixed without 90 **** updates to it.
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#75 Oct 19 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
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I have lost 1 exp parse since buying my Kclub (~3 years). That was a too a relic holding SAM.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with RNG in exp and I will prove that to anyone.
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#76 Oct 19 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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xbobbobx wrote:

that is because people are stupid in this game.
it is also because bards only haste people and dont give ranger double attack

so ranger does not do well because support jobs are lazy, and people in ffxi can't think for themselves.


I'm going to hate myself for it, but you're going to make me defend BRD here. The only time you should EVER expect a buff from a BRD in a meripo is during 2 BRD parties or it's a RNG Ammo burn party obviously. I make **** sure to hit the RNG on my COR with my AoE ring if need be, but typically most people want COR roll and only 1 DD roll. The reason why it's impossible for a single BRD to buff a lone RNG is the same reason some BRD's have trouble singing Ballad for mages. The DD's kill too **** fast and you must always be on the move pulling. IF anything, it's the fault of the game mechanics, not lazy support. BRD and COR buffs(need to double roll for best buff) are NOT instant and do take time, time you usually don't have. Essentially you have to cut a few corners to keep the chain going. The healer's MP is more important than your E-peen on RNG.

Go level a support job and maybe you'll learn something. It's a ***** to pull, keep up buffs 100%, handle links if they arise, and anything else I missed. How about you go pull jackass and that way, your BRD will have time to sing buffs just for you. Oh wait, that means your damage will suffer... OH noess...
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