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Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009) Follow

#102 Dec 10 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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#103 Dec 10 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Default
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VZX wrote:
So like... has camouflage become a more worthwhile feature after this patch?
I haven't heard anyone comments on it.


The -enmity effect is practically unnoticeable. It's as if after cancelling the RNG update they said "I know we hate RNG and all but we need to do something or we're going to look stupid after making that big announcement. Lets just leave in the Camouflage update but lower the enmity reduction to -2%."

"returning to what we were discussing at last weeks meeting, SAM has become much more popular now but some of us feel it's still not powerful enough. So next update..."

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 10:34pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#104 Dec 10 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I have actually noticed a large enmity reduction when using Barrage...
Using it in this manner Barrage>>Sharpshot>>Camouflage w/ Hunter's Jerkin macroed in.

I have hit all 7 shots of my Barrage on the Groundskeepers while farming for despot ~1-2sec after everyone has engaged and I don't pull hate. We normally only farm with 6 ppl. It seems that Flash creates more hate than Barrage w/ Camouflage up seeing as the PLD would Flash one as the BRD would bring them in. This is a large change from what I have seen earlier before the update, where the Groundskeeper would be on me till it was dead. I have had similar experiences on other mobs as well.
#105 Dec 11 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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That's a big enmity down if what you say is the exact happening.
Now you can spike in the early battle without worrying enmity at all.

Hope someone can bring it into BG to test the exact enmity down.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 6:15am by VZX
#106 Dec 11 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I have hit all 7 shots of my Barrage on the Groundskeepers while farming for despot ~1-2sec after everyone has engaged and I don't pull hate.


Really? I bring RNG/NIN to the same situation farming in Sky and I still pull hate with Barrage and camouflage up. If I follow that with a WS, I'm tanking the battle.

Well, I'm glad it works for someone. My camouflage seems broken I guess (and yes I macro in my jerkin for the job ability).
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#107 Dec 11 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That's a big enmity down if what you say is the exact happening.
Now you can spike in the early battle without worrying enmity at all.

Hope someone can bring it into BG to test the exact enmity down.


It's -25 enmity. Ashira and I tested it the week the update came out. It's buried somewhere in the BG thread around where the Atonement testing happens.

EDIT:
Range you shot from didn't affect it (from directly behind mob to '20 behind)
Having AF1 on didn't affect this -25 number.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 10:26pm by Kaeko
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#108 Dec 12 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Kaeko wrote:
It's -25 enmity. Ashira and I tested it the week the update came out. It's buried somewhere in the BG thread around where the Atonement testing happens.

EDIT:
Range you shot from didn't affect it (from directly behind mob to '20 behind)
Having AF1 on didn't affect this -25 number.

Were you able to test whether or not Camouflage "applies" to Barrage or WS?

When you use WS, Camouflage wears off, but I can't tell which happens "first."
Barrage has the same mechanics (mostly) as a ranged attack, but Camouflage wears off after Barrage every time.
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#109 Dec 14 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Default
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too bad ranged attackes seem to have an inherent +40 enmity to them
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#110 Dec 14 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Were you able to test whether or not Camouflage "applies" to Barrage or WS?

When you use WS, Camouflage wears off, but I can't tell which happens "first."
Barrage has the same mechanics (mostly) as a ranged attack, but Camouflage wears off after Barrage every time.


I seriously wonder aboutt his too. Even if I just hit one shot or miss a barrage, camouflage will wear off everytime. As will it with WS. If I'm not facing the mob I can usually get 4-5 regular shots off before Camo goes away.

I'm wondering if the best use is TP'ing prior to WS so you are further dwon the hate list when you let Slug shot fly. Certainly if it doesn't stack with Barrage or WS's, that would make more sense.
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#111 Dec 14 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It's -25 enmity. Ashira and I tested it the week the update came out. It's buried somewhere in the BG thread around where the Atonement testing happens.


should note that camouflage gives 80 (VE) enmity. so, if you use camo while on the hate list and it doesnt last more than 3 hits, you created more enmity by using it than by doing nothing.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 1:21pm by iknoweverything
#112 Dec 14 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
should note that camouflage gives 80 (VE) enmity.


Is that still true since the update. You'd think SE would remove that if they were changing the purpose of camouflage.
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#113 Dec 14 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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xbobbobx wrote:
too bad ranged attackes seem to have an inherent +40 enmity to them


Made up numbers are made up.

This was tested and published well over 1 year ago. There is no +40 to ranged attacks.
#114 Dec 14 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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iknoweverything wrote:
Quote:
It's -25 enmity. Ashira and I tested it the week the update came out. It's buried somewhere in the BG thread around where the Atonement testing happens.


should note that camouflage gives 80 (VE) enmity. so, if you use camo while on the hate list and it doesnt last more than 3 hits, you created more enmity by using it than by doing nothing.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 1:21pm by iknoweverything


I think it works like this......



Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:23am by Taurusrexx
#115 Dec 14 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm completely lost. Or maybe you are.


i think its me as i knew it sounded ******* stupid for them to do that, with SE you never know though. i read it as a straight -25 as in, you shoot for 200 (made up amount) and camo drops it to 175.
#116 Dec 14 2009 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Spiking with enmity down gear is more viable now?
I want to know how much enmity down RNG can get in WS and barrage set
#117 Dec 15 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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A couple months ago, we fought Tyger (ZNM Khimaira) and I came on RNG. I had the following -enmity gear:

Legion Scutum (with Kriegs)
ZGB
Cobra Harness
NQ relic hands (finally! a use)
relic legs+1
relic feet+1
(no Buccaneer's Belt, but I'd certainly get one if I did Einherjar)

To put it mildly, I crushed every other DD on the scene. The primary (and significant) limiting factor is hate generation, and I was able to pour on the damage without taking hate a single time. This was before Camouflage update.

There is a saying that I've heard: against HNM, your gear doesn't matter because no matter how sh*tty your gear is, in an extended fight you will eventually run up against the hate cap and from that point on, you are unavoidably constrained. I would argue that -enmity gear potentially has a significant role in this game for DDs; one that has yet to be explored by most players.
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#118 Dec 15 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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To put it mildly, I crushed every other DD on the scene. The primary (and significant) limiting factor is hate generation, and I was able to pour on the damage without taking hate a single time. This was before Camouflage update.


So you're the one that got SE to nix the ranged enmity update!
I can see it now:
SE developer: "Sir, we've got a problem with that RNG update. Some RNG just destroyed a bunch of SAM's in damage without taking a hit."
Lead Developer: "What?! That's not possible! SAM's can't be touched as DD in this game."
SE Developer: "Well, it happened sir. Apparently RNG have a good amount of - enmity gear available to them already."
Lead Developer: "Then why the **** are we offering them reduced enmity with ranged attacks?"
SE Developer: "I guess most of them were not interested in wearing that gear."
Lead Developer: "Well ***** that! If they can outdamage SAM with -enmity gear, then they don't need any help from us. Just give them that camouflage update and the distance calculator and be done with it. Just make sure that the Camouflage thing doesn't stack with weaponskills or barrage. It's all about balance after all."


All kidding aside. Did you just swap in the -enm gear for WS or for the whole fight?
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#119 Dec 15 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:

There is a saying that I've heard: against HNM, your gear doesn't matter because no matter how sh*tty your gear is, in an extended fight you will eventually run up against the hate cap and from that point on, you are unavoidably constrained. I would argue that -enmity gear potentially has a significant role in this game for DDs; one that has yet to be explored by most players.

Probably coming from one of the enmity discussion on BG. I think it was Kaeko mentioning that. In that situation, Annihilator is invaluable. Taking no hate is priceless if your job is DD.
#120 Dec 15 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Novia is also a great addition for -ENM. -7 ENM in exchange for +2 STR is worth it in that type of situation.
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#121 Dec 15 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Did you just swap in the -enm gear for WS or for the whole fight?

Fulltime.
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#122 Dec 15 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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Made up numbers are made up.

This was tested and published well over 1 year ago. There is no +40 to ranged attacks.


that was because they were made up, fact is ranged enmity is messed up it is so easy to see.

I can see a sam do 3 700+ ws in a row, and I do one sidewinder with -enmity on for 800 and I get hate.

so maybe not ranged attacks but it sure feels like sidwinder has extra enmity built in, have some sam friends that notice that too, they will use normal ws and not pull hate but do a sidewinder for same dmg and pull hate and tank rest of fight.

I was fighting gods other day had 300tp stored, never fired a shot in fight, waiting till mob was down about 40% , sams, ws, plds provoking etc, I do one sidewinder and get hate for about 10 secs. How is that even possible, something is wrong there.
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#123 Dec 15 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
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More than once, several hundred actually, tanks have complained about the enmity generation of rangers during fights. Usually my LS fights with <15 people for pretty much everything except dynamis, and of that, only 2 of us are actually rangers, with me coming as rng to 95% of events.

With that being said, i can go through entire fights holding back, Slugwinder once and voila i am tanking, I see it in dynamis even more, where you have a bunch of DD's going nuts on a mob, but if i ws and it doesnt kill the mob, its coming for me hardcore.

I built up -enmity just for this reason alone.


As far as -enmity gear goes:
Novia earring
Scout's Beret
ZGB
Scout's jerkin
Scout's braccae
Scout's socks
Scout's Bracers

and several other pieces you can use, which some i macro in when i do high hate spike ja's and what not.
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#124 Dec 15 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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xbobbobx wrote:
Quote:
Made up numbers are made up.

This was tested and published well over 1 year ago. There is no +40 to ranged attacks.


that was because they were made up, fact is ranged enmity is messed up it is so easy to see.

I can see a sam do 3 700+ ws in a row, and I do one sidewinder with -enmity on for 800 and I get hate.

so maybe not ranged attacks but it sure feels like sidwinder has extra enmity built in, have some sam friends that notice that too, they will use normal ws and not pull hate but do a sidewinder for same dmg and pull hate and tank rest of fight.

I was fighting gods other day had 300tp stored, never fired a shot in fight, waiting till mob was down about 40% , sams, ws, plds provoking etc, I do one sidewinder and get hate for about 10 secs. How is that even possible, something is wrong there.






You pull hate from more than just damage and hate that is created has a component that decays over time.



Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:12am by Taurusrexx
#125 Dec 16 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

While you were holding damage, and the sams were doing damage and plds provoking, their hate was decaying, plus they were taking damage and their enmity was reduced further.


I think this is key. Other DD that melee close range get hit periodically which speeds their hate decay. RNG standing out of AoE range largely take no damage. So we build hate without an easy way to shed it. Then when we spike, the mob needs to hit us repetitively to shed the hate since we haven't been hit previously. Voila RNG tank.

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#126 Dec 16 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:


There is a saying that I've heard: against HNM, your gear doesn't matter because no matter how sh*tty your gear is, in an extended fight you will eventually run up against the hate cap and from that point on, you are unavoidably constrained.


That's what the "RNG hate reset" is for.

Remember, ranged attacks aren't affected by weakness, only by double weakness. If the mob looks at you you run over to the tanks and die, then RR and continue. As long as you don't die more than once per 5 minutes you're fine.

Of course I've never been able to convince my LS leaders that this is a viable strategy. Their thinking is securely inside the box unfortunately

VZX wrote:
In that situation, Annihilator is invaluable. Taking no hate is priceless if your job is DD.


I think I'd still rather have Yoichi with it's '15+ "strikes true" zone on large mobs.

Edited, Dec 16th 2009 7:25pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#127 Dec 16 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Remember, ranged attacks aren't affected by weakness, only by double weakness.

Since when?

Quote:
I think I'd still rather have Yoichi with it's '15+ "strikes true" zone on large mobs.

So basically, your argument is that in enmity-capped situations, Yoichi is better than Anni because... it deals more damage? In that scenario, I'm not sure how dealing more damage compensates for worse enmity generation; rather, the opposite.

It's like saying that -ga spells are a bad idea against colibri because they mimic them, but you can make up for that by casting -ga3.
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#128 Dec 16 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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In practice. anni and yoichi are much more similar than they might first appear.





Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:11am by Taurusrexx
#129 Dec 17 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Remember, ranged attacks aren't affected by weakness, only by double weakness.

Since when


The slow from weakness doesn't affect ranged attacks.

Double weakness is another matter.

Quote:

So basically, your argument is that in enmity-capped situations, Yoichi is better than Anni because... it deals more damage? In that scenario, I'm not sure how dealing more damage compensates for worse enmity generation; rather, the opposite.


It's also more accurate because on something like Cerb you will be in the "strikes true" range while standing 15-17 from the mob while with Annihilator you'll be far out of the sweet spot.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#130 Dec 17 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Default
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Enmity Merits -4
Tartaglia/Legion Scutum: Enmity-7
Raven Beret: Enmity-8
Benign Necklace: Enmity-2
Novia Earring/Delta Earring: Enmity-10
Raven Bracers: Enmity-5
Trooper's Ring: +1 Enmity-4
Raven Jupon: Enmity-9
Buccaneer's Belt: Enmity-4
Raven Hose: Enmity-6
Raven Gaiters: Enmity-5

Total: Enmity -64

Or to put it another way, your enmity would be reduced to 36%. You'd take a hit on stats but that could be compensated for by eating meat and putting a BRD and COR in the party with your RNGs.


Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:33am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#131 Dec 17 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Enmity Merits -4
Tartaglia/Legion Scutum: Enmity-7
Raven Beret: Enmity-8
Benign Necklace: Enmity-2
Novia Earring/Delta Earring: Enmity-10
Raven Bracers: Enmity-5
Trooper's Ring: +1 Enmity-4
Raven Jupon: Enmity-9
Buccaneer's Belt: Enmity-4
Raven Hose: Enmity-6
Raven Gaiters: Enmity-5

Total: Enmity -64

Or to put it another way, your enmity would be reduced to 36%. You'd take a hit on stats but that could be compensated for by eating meat and putting a BRD and COR in the party with your RNGs.


Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:33am by Lobivopis




Edited, Dec 17th 2009 3:08am by Taurusrexx

Edited, Apr 18th 2010 1:30am by Taurusrexx
#132 Dec 17 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Taurusrexx wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Enmity Merits -4
Tartaglia/Legion Scutum: Enmity-7
Raven Beret: Enmity-8
Benign Necklace: Enmity-2
Novia Earring/Delta Earring: Enmity-10
Raven Bracers: Enmity-5
Trooper's Ring: +1 Enmity-4
Raven Jupon: Enmity-9
Buccaneer's Belt: Enmity-4
Raven Hose: Enmity-6
Raven Gaiters: Enmity-5

Total: Enmity -64

Or to put it another way, your enmity would be reduced to 36%. You'd take a hit on stats but that could be compensated for by eating meat and putting a BRD and COR in the party with your RNGs.


Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:33am by Lobivopis


Technically, the cap on enmity from merits / equipment is capped at -50%,


Replace jupon with mirke or osode, gaiters with scout's socks and benign necklace with PCA.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 7:15am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#133 Dec 17 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I doubt enmity down from Camouflage is multiplicative to enmity down from gear/merit. I personally haven't heard of -50 enmity cap (if there's any that kind of that since late February, I'd like to read it).

Yoichi Enmity down is assuming you don't generate high hate on your TPing phase (beware: triple damage, especially if you /WAR). While, Annihilator enmity down from Coronach will give a lot of enmity down on your TPing phase when you /WAR. Not to mention you might be able to squeeze Slug Shot occasionally instead of just Coronach Spamming.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:44am by VZX
#134 Dec 17 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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[quote=VZX]I doubt enmity down from Camouflage is multiplicative to enmity down from gear/merit. I personally haven't heard of -50 enmity cap (if there's any that kind of that since late February, I'd like to read it).



Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:04am by Taurusrexx
#135 Dec 17 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
redvenomweb wrote:
So basically, your argument is that in enmity-capped situations, Yoichi is better than Anni because... it deals more damage? In that scenario, I'm not sure how dealing more damage compensates for worse enmity generation; rather, the opposite.

It's also more accurate because on something like Cerb you will be in the "strikes true" range while standing 15-17 from the mob while with Annihilator you'll be far out of the sweet spot.

I doubt accuracy will be an issue either way, but even if that's granted, we're still looking at more-damage vs. less-enmity.
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#136 Dec 18 2009 at 6:34 PM Rating: Default
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Now i'm an idiot here so i need something explained out to me.



If there is an enmity cap (the amount of enmity we can have at any one time), then how is it that having - enmity, once cap is hit, helps us? I understand that VE decays at 60 enmity/sec. so I can see how it may help with the generation of new VE, but how do we reduce our CE as well?

coronach:
Quote:
* Lowers Enmity for a certain amount of time. (Enmity -20)
* Regardless of the damage, Coronach hate is only 80CE / 240 VE (Enmity- effect included).



So if we are at the CE cap, then the CE generated doesnt mean anything, only the VE generated.

If we're generating VE at the Ce cap, then -20 VE isnt a huge deal due to the fact that a 1000dmg sidewinder/slugshot would generate a base of

[ VE ] = [ VE Modifier ] x [ Damage Dealt ]

VE = 4.14 x 1000

4,140 VE assuming a level 85 mob.

-20 enmity from a previous coronach would drop that to 4,120. I really dont see how that helps at all to be honest.

What i could see is that the -20 enmity would help to generate less over time from our regular ranged attacks, which one would assume is what its actually for. So in that instance, if you were dealing 100dmg /hit to the same target:


VE = (4.14 x 100)-20

VE= 394 (with aftermath) (6.56~6.57 secs to 0 VE)
VE =414 (w/o aftermath) (6.9 secs to 0 VE)

Coronach with a set 240 VE takes 4 secs flat to decay to 0
Slugwinder at 1000 dmg takes ~69 secs to decay to 0

So why in the world would you even use slugwinder at all unless you are zerging or not caring about hate generation when you could spam coronach every 100tp?


I am still not convinced that ranged attack enmity holds to the same calculations as melee ws enmity. I have read it here, seen it myself and i am sure most of you have as well, specifically using dynamis where i can land a 1000dmg sidewinder, followed by a sam/war/drg/other dd 1000dmg ws, yet the mob is still glued to me and NOT them.


So, with all that, someone plug in what i am missing to help me understand this a bit better.
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#137 Dec 19 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
So why in the world would you even use slugwinder at all unless you are zerging or not caring about hate generation when you could spam coronach every 100tp?

You wouldn't. That's the point.

The point of Coronach is that you can deal much, much more damage before you reach the hate cap (both via low enmity on the WS and reduced enmity while TPing due to Aftermath) and, when you do reach the cap, you will be able to stay lower on the hate list (relatively) than other RNGs.
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#138 Dec 19 2009 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:

VE = (4.14 x 100)-20

VE= 394 (with aftermath) (6.56~6.57 secs to 0 VE)
VE =414 (w/o aftermath) (6.9 secs to 0 VE)

I don't know what are you thinking, but this is a wrong calculation. If you give a couple seconds thinking it over again, this calculation completely doesn't make sense.

enmity-20 = 20% of your enmity will be thrown out.

so it's: (100-20)%*4140 = 3312 VE = 55 seconds = 13 seconds faster to completely clear out the VE.
Essentially, enmity-20 will let you accumulate the same amount of enmity when you're dealing 25% higher damage. That's why Coronach-Berserk pairing.

Quote:
I am still not convinced that ranged attack enmity holds to the same calculations as melee ws enmity. I have read it here, seen it myself and i am sure most of you have as well, specifically using dynamis where i can land a 1000dmg sidewinder, followed by a sam/war/drg/other dd 1000dmg ws, yet the mob is still glued to me and NOT them.

If you don't eat damage, how could you not release the hate from yourself.

Edited, Dec 19th 2009 2:03am by VZX
#139 Dec 21 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok i get it alot better now, i just didnt think or realize it was a percentage. That makes a ****-load more sense.



And melee DD's do not always take dmg in a fight, nor do i as a rng always avoid dmg from mobs.
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#140 Dec 22 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
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I joined a level sync party other day at 56, myself on ranger, 2 drgs, 1 war, bard and rdm.

I had to use crap arrows otherwise I couldnt shoot. I would pull hate on second arrow and tank for a while, there were times i coudnt get tp for a few fights because everytime I took a shot colibri would attack me and i lose my tp.

I can't shoot an arrow until war has provoked and hit it a few times otherwise i get hate. it was rediculous.

so either the majority of ffxi users are morons because Ranger is the strongest job by far, or there is something wrong.
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#141 Dec 22 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
so either the majority of ffxi users are morons because Ranger is the strongest job by far, or there is something wrong.


At level 56 a RNG is probably the strongest DD in the game. You have access to your endgame Bow. You are killing piercing weak mobs. You have access to your strongest WS. Your only issues at that point is the fact that you may not have as much RACC as you'd like. Otherwise you will crush people at that level.

But at 75 the rest of the DD catch up as they accumulate more haste gear, more useful merits, better WS's, better weapons. And at the same time having better defensive capabilities to take a few shots. And generally smoother damage profile to mitigate hate better.

i'd still take a RNG for any kited type fight, but in a face to face zerg, its no contest IMO.
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#142 Dec 22 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

i'd still take a RNG for any kited type fight, but in a face to face zerg, its no contest IMO.


o really?

Slug > Barrage > Slug > ES > ICSlug

Not enough in 30 seconds? Im sick of people saying RNG can't zerg when that's what we do best!!
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#143 Dec 22 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I prefer Slug > wing > Slug > Barrage > EES > Slug.

If Barrage doesn't quite get to 100 TP, EES can get that last bit you need. EES's animation is pretty long, but is interruptable by WS.
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#144 Dec 22 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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True
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#145 Dec 24 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Slug > Barrage > Slug > ES > ICSlug


Nice when it all hits. But I've been in zergs with myself and other RNG's that even with good RACC gear (~80 RACC and 25+ AGI), one of the slugs or barrages usually misses. It seems melee rarely have that problem in a zerg (likely thanks to the dual madrigals that do jack squat for the RNG).

And yes we get Feint on the mob.

And of course when we do hit all those slugs and barrages the mob is in your face having moved from the melee, causing them to miss and be ****** at the RNG. That's usually why I use HF+1 for those fights. Yes I'll eat more AoE but i won't make the mob move very far. The Bow RNG's are a different story.

Granted in a 30 sec zerg, RNG is very good. In a 3 min zerg we get surpassed. Once you've laid out your slug, barrage, slug, EES, IcW Slug, you are pretty much done. if you aren't dead, you are spending then next couple minutes plunking away for TP without the benefit of Haste, haste gear and dual marches speeding your attack (and no snapshot and velocity shot don't make up that difference).
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#146 Dec 29 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I prefer

Slugwinder >> barrage >> slugwinder >> meditate + EES >> slugwinder >> IC Slugwinder


But thats just my personal take. Anyway, the point of a zerg in the first place is to kill something as fast as you possibly can. So if youre NOT doing something along these lines, Dart, there's no use in you being there. Yeah we may miss, but gekko's, rana's, guillotines, raging rushes, KJ's etc they can and do miss as well, **** happens.


Quote:
At level 56 a RNG is probably the strongest DD in the game. You have access to your endgame Bow. You are killing piercing weak mobs. You have access to your strongest WS. Your only issues at that point is the fact that you may not have as much RACC as you'd like. Otherwise you will crush people at that level.


Dont forget, Drg have 5-poke-joke too at this level.



Quote:
But at 75 the rest of the DD catch up as they accumulate more haste gear, more useful merits, better WS's, better weapons. And at the same time having better defensive capabilities to take a few shots. And generally smoother damage profile to mitigate hate better.



Yeah youre right by 75 they get alot better gear than they had at 55, but youre also leaving out the fact that they HAVE to get that gear to finally be on par with what we've been doing for 20+ levels. I'm not saying that rng is the hands down best DD that can and ever will exist, but in the current state of levelling jobs in FFXI, it **** sure is looking to be king for the time being. (psst if you dont get what i mean, you can level on birds from basically 30-75)
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#147 Dec 29 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In a 3 min zerg


At that point is it really a zerg?
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#148 Dec 30 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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well no, I wouldnt consider that a zerg, i would say its more of a failed zerg that had enough back up on hand to bring it home.
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#149 Dec 30 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Or an einherjar boss like Behe or Dvrgr.
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#150 Jan 02 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Default
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xbobbobx wrote:
I joined a level sync party other day at 56, myself on ranger, 2 drgs, 1 war, bard and rdm.

I had to use crap arrows otherwise I couldnt shoot. I would pull hate on second arrow and tank for a while, there were times i coudnt get tp for a few fights because everytime I took a shot colibri would attack me and i lose my tp.

I can't shoot an arrow until war has provoked and hit it a few times otherwise i get hate. it was rediculous.

so either the majority of ffxi users are morons because Ranger is the strongest job by far, or there is something wrong.


im just lvl 45 right now but sorry im just going rng/nin and going all out at these levels. it cant be helped. i use 1 arrow to pull and have hate still even after a voke sometimes. there is nothing wrong with meleeing with daggers at this level and firing from in close. sure its gimps your dmg some but it doesnt make other dd's chase the mob after you and have them possibly lose tp when the mob moves out of range right as they use a WS.

i think some rngs just need to use common sense and do what benefits the party most and stop trying to be top of the parser.

"yea you know why rng was at the top of the parser? cuz every time i went to WS i'd lose 100tp because it was chasing the rng around"

thats just a joke but really it does happen and at lower levels you would most likely still be the top DD even if you use a bow and melee with a few daggers.

im just starting out on rng really but it doesnt take a genius to figure out WOW im really messing up this PTs flow with the mob coming to me every 5 seconds. then you stop shooting until they get hate back and then you have to readjust your distance and you just end up gimping yourself anyway. why not just go melee and shoot and be just as effective. there is nothing wrong with that while leveling ranger.


It also doesnt help that high level jobs are joining these level synch parties and wearing their high level gear that give no stats so if you are the person being synched to and have your correct level gear you will be outdoing the others. I was actually in a synch pt while leveling my sam sub last week so it was between 30-35 synch in the second jungle and there was a 50 something war(maybe 54) who kept putting on his new armor as he leveled up rendering himself +statless and with gimp gear and im just thinking to myself wow you are "that guy".

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 10:08am by VladjasonDrac
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#151 Jan 02 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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VladjasonDrac wrote:

Quote:
xbobbobx wrote:
I joined a level sync party other day at 56, myself on ranger, 2 drgs, 1 war, bard and rdm.

I had to use crap arrows otherwise I couldnt shoot. I would pull hate on second arrow and tank for a while, there were times i coudnt get tp for a few fights because everytime I took a shot colibri would attack me and i lose my tp.

I can't shoot an arrow until war has provoked and hit it a few times otherwise i get hate. it was rediculous.

so either the majority of ffxi users are morons because Ranger is the strongest job by far, or there is something wrong.


im just lvl 45 right now but sorry im just going rng/nin and going all out at these levels. it cant be helped. i use 1 arrow to pull and have hate still even after a voke sometimes. there is nothing wrong with meleeing with daggers at this level and firing from in close. sure its gimps your dmg some but it doesnt make other dd's chase the mob after you and have them possibly lose tp when the mob moves out of range right as they use a WS.


You are totally wrong vladja and the correct answer is: "A lot of FFXI players suck".

In the past few months, I have leveled quite a few jobs like monk, rng, drg and war. I would pull hate on all of them a lot and end up tanking. The key is to wear the right gear and have the right sub. Also, the most important thing is that most players don't eat food. I usually buy 2 stacks of meat going against colibri and spam them. Fights are fast and you won't eat it all within the first 15 mins.

Pre-ToaU was very common to see the animation of everyone, including mages, eating food at the start of a fight. Now, I only see myself eating food. The difference in a party that eats food and one that doesn't is incredible.

Ranger is strong but you shouldn't have to gimp yourself because the rest of the party is full of morons.

When I see myself tanking for most of the fights, I fell proud of myself. It means to me that I am pushing myself compared to the rest of the party. They can't say **** because if they open their mouth, they are basically opening the door for me to point out why I pull hate and they don't.
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