Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009) Follow

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Let me ask you a question: when the updates for Shield Mastery and Reprisal came out, were you saying, "These updates make Aegis worthless!"? Or were you saying that an update which makes an average piece of gear good will make a good piece of gear great?

If the enmity adjustments are strong enough to let HF+1/O-bow/E-bow users act like relic wielders, it will let relic wielders act like completely unhinged maniacs.

Not really because Namas Arrow actually sucks compared to Sidewinder.

If a v-bow user can spam Sidewinder at 100% TP and not pull hate then he's going to be doing only slightly less damage than a Yoichi user due to Sidewinder's higher damage and the v-bow's lower delay. That would place it in the same category as Ragnarok.



Edited, Oct 16th 2009 7:40am by Lobivopis

First of all, against anything that matters, pulling hate is a question of when, not if. So your observation has a fundamental flaw: relic users can still go longer without getting hate, regardless of the new enmity changes.

I also notice that you did not mention Coronach; presumably because the aftermath would seem to rather obviously make a difference.

I doubt very much SE is going to reduce enm so much that a RNG/WAR can go full out and not get hate.

My modest hope for the patch is so I can go /NIN or /SAM and not have to hold back and not get the mob moved. Hell I go COR/DNC to a lot of meripos and still get far too much hate for my liking. If this change works for COR's I'm very happy.

But I'm all for SE giving RNG a super-buff enm reduction. I just don't see that happening. I suspect we'll still be "kilshot" meripo jobs unless we want to piss everyone else off.

i disagree with that statement. rngs outside of subjob and a 5 min timer have no quick way to gain tp. Haste dont effect rng attacks and snapstop is laughable since theres no auto rng attack.

rngs just cant keep up with haste, triple attack or double attack job traits, kick attacks, and jumps that all the other melees have access to.

and also i use my bard for merits, between buffing and pulling theres really no time to sing 5 songs between pulls. songs take forever to sing when 2 ws can pretty much kill a bird.

ya but +100 racc is about equivalent to +3 acc

I disagree.

I'm wondering if you actually understand how these relics work.



Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:13am by Taurusrexx

How much more damage do they do? 50% more? 100% more?

I imagine its closer to 20% more which could be considered marginal by some and broken by others. Given some people's willingness to pay millions in gil for gear that adds 20 damage to slugshot, the concept of value and worth is questionable.

Nonetheless i agree that these RNG updates will not make RNG relic Worthless. But my opinion is that all relic is really status anyways since most endgame activities can be beat with non-relic gear with the right strategies.

A melee RNG does not match the walking colibri apocalypse that is a well equipped DRG/SAM with Drakesbane. Though that has more to do with Drakesbane being ridiculously broken on birds than anything else.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 2:01am by Lobivopis

I mentioned, that I merited on mamools and had average ws of 1800, and kept up to a relic sam , and I said kept up to before people start crying.

it is all about gettign the right songs from teh bards, if you dont have a lazy bard, ranger can do very well.

and cost isnt an issue, buy a stack of demon horns for 40k, make them into 72 arrowheads for 5k more. Those arrowheads make 24 stacks of arrows for another 15k, for a total of about 60k. Half the price of what ah cost is for arrows.

I have lost 1 exp parse since buying my Kclub (~3 years). That was a too a relic holding SAM.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with RNG in exp and I will prove that to anyone.

Just to toss in my two cents here between Bob and Shadowedge, but Shadow does make some good points here. I've leveled a support job (RDM), and I also have a 75 RNG, and I must say that the mechanics of this game do in fact effect just how much support jobs can do. I agree, if you play a support job, you really do learn to have respect for their posistion. There isn't a DD job in this game that's more difficult to play than a support job.

As a RDM, I've had some really fun situations. Refresh, Haste, Heal, and sleep pull to boot (all in one party!). As a RNG, I kind of stand in one spot, and shoot. Maybe I'll go the extra mile and pull too. BRD gets to pull, yap at people who don't stand in the right spot (COR too), buff five people, etc.

What's my point? My point is that before any exclusively dd player calls someone a crappy support, they really should try walking a mile in that support's shoes. See just how much more difficult their job is, and just how well you do at. Then decide if you want to call them crappy.

Holy crapola, people complain about these job improvements? As if merit parties is the only damn thing worth doing in game? FFXI really is 'dieing.'

Does no one fight HNMs here anymore? RNGs just moved ahead for physical damage now on ToAU NMs. Because I remember holding back quite a bit on something like a Sarameya where we stand more than 21 ticks away, this would allow a RNG to use more WSes or JAs like Barrage and not mess up hate.

Sorry Rangers, you can't be tops at both HNMs and merit parties. If you were, people would cry and it would be 04/05 all over again. Learn to love the updates.

And my 2 gil on relic: They'd still pull ahead in HNMs. A stealth shotted, max range 2300 Sidewinder will still pull hate, Namas/Coronach won't.

10 MILLION!? sh*t i'm moving to your server and buying a few of those. They're 45mil on my server.

anyway



To a certain extent, you're correct, but you're blinding yourself to the fact that, while your sam/drg/war are pumping out thier best 5-poke-jokes/Rampages just as fast as they can and faster than a rng, we drop ONE ws and end a bird's dreams of grandeur and send it on into enlightenment. Its the age old argument of whats better, 2 1000 point ws's from a sam, or 1 2000 point ws from a rng. Get over it we all get the job done one way or another. And if your rng's arent parsing somewhere at the top of the list, something is very very wrong. Even w/o buffs from brd or cor, wlugwinder STILL does hands down better damage on average and we STILL can get 5-hit builds as easily as other jobs.





Oh how quickly we forget...apparently you dont remember when it was a ranger's JOB to be the puller, it was either you or the thf, and most thfs pussed out on my server. So dont give me any sh*t about "oh you go pull"

and on another note, since apprently you havent figured this one out, i'll clue you in as to how brds tend to do things. Pull 1-2 birds, sing a song, pull another bird, sing 2nd song, pull another, sing your 3rd, pull another sing your 4th. By the reckoning that it takes 8 secs to sing a song and 30 ish to kill a mob (pending on tp of Dd's at start), you should have a good 22 secs or so after your song to get out there and bring us the next mob. If your so hell bent on trying to get 2-3 or 4 songs out at once, then just bring back 3-4 birds.

I am so sick of prima-donna brds ranting on about how so very hard your job is, get over it, never, ever forget, that your #1 priority in a party is to buff the party members so that the mage(s) have MP and the melees do-what-they-do. Pulling is secondary and anyone with voke/ratt/songs/spells can pull a mob.





We arent complaining, we are debating the, as of now, hypothetical relevance of these buffs to current game play and the future of ranger.



umm, i know i cant speak for everyone here, but after 6 years of playing this game, I'm pretty sure that we can tell quite easily, when someone sucks ass at their support job. Oh and alot of us HAVE levelled those support jobs.





Every day. I see Rng's being scooped up for meripos nearly as they put their flags up and quite often get /tells asking me to merit when there are a dozen drg's and sam's lfg.



Your server, sir, is not the only server in FFXI and server "favorites" differ. Rngs on my server get scooped up fast, whereas apprently on yours they do not.



Okay, yes we have disadvantages, say, the same ones drg has when super jump isnt up, or war/sam as far as defensive capabilites go. However, you should really remove the "comparable" seeing as how those "big 4" with nice gear vs a nice gear rng are usually eating crow in the meripo situation.



I'm sorry, you cant use someone's pocket-book as a reason you dont get invited to meripo as rng. No one out there is trying to conserve you money. And if its straight up cost relevant to you, Cor is far mor expensive than ranger.



Ok, here is how this works, basically, under 500+ defense, Rng, cor, sam, drg, war, nin, mnk, blu, pup all take comparable amounts of damage. if your drg/sam or war/sam gets caught with his seigan/TE down, he's getting rocked just like anyone else. In fact, I see more drg's, sam's and war's dieing in meripos when things go bad than rangers.



The movement issue, is only an issue, if your rng is retarded or if your other melee DD's are so gimped they cant keep hate off a 300-500 ranged hit. Even so, a ranger can take the "hit" to their damage, and it all depends on thier weapon of choice, and still outparse most comparably geared jobs. You have lazy rangers.



again we're back to your choice, you are making the choice that YOU want to use specific songs and thats that. Well tbh, i havent heard a sam, drg, war or mnk cry a river if they got double minuet instead of march + minuet or double march. The saddest thing, and something that most people just dont quite get through their skulls, is that, we as a decently or well geared rng can thoroughly embarass 80% of the dd's out there in a bird or even mamool meripo EVEN WITHOUT YOUR SONGS/ROLLS. Yes, its awesome to get them, but if i dont, oh well, it just means that the other dd's actually stand a chance of getting within 10% of my parse.



Again, the only person cost should have any effect on is the ranger himself. A pt leader not inviting a rng because they are trying to conserve a rng's wallet is a bit silly when/if that rng has their flag up. Worry about your own wallet, i'll take care of mine.



Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:23pm by Aryden

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:27pm by Aryden

Thank you, cause the only job i have ever levelled, at all, in any game is Rng... Let me set you straight on something here guy:

1) The support job you choose, is only difficult if you make it that way. There are easy ways and hard ways to accomplish the same goals, if you choose to be obstinate, fine, your choice.

2) If your party needs a puller while your brd or cor buffs people, anyone should understand and be perfectly willing to shoot or voke of whatever they need to do to get the next mob in, only greedy self loving dipsh*ts stand around with their thumbs in their asses expecting other people to wear 10 hats at once. I pull all the damn time in meripos JUST SO the brd or cor can get in their buff cycles on the mage(s). Its called an actual functioning TEAM of people out for one goal.

3)YOUR JOB is to buff the party members. PERIOD, otherwise wtf use are you? Why would i fill a slot in a pt with a cor who doesnt buff, or a brd who doesnt either, you would be a waste of space. SO use your damn buff, OPEN your mouth and say "Hey i'm buffing, someone grab a mob or 2" and do what you do. sh*t man it's simple communication, the DD's in parties want merits/Xp and dont really give 2 sh*ts about how it gets to them as long as it keeps coming in. I have YET to ever hear any Dd in a meripo bitch or whine if asked to grab a mob or 2 while buffs are going up. So do NOT sit here and tell me you have the most difficult job on the planet because YOU cant make things run smoother. Yeah Rng is stupid easy, we all admit that and support jobs are added difficulty, but stop whining about it and do what you hav to to make your life easier and less QQ over it.

then you have partied with alot of lazy people, I always help pull on rng if I can, but rangers pulling is kind of dumb anyways, rangers are finishers, we use are ws to kill the mob, if we have to run to pull when mob isnt dead, we end up sitting on alot of mp.

and to last poster, if your rangers in party did subpar, its not the job, it was the player.

any ranger with an ouce of skill knows when is the best time to sidewinder to ensure the mob dies or is one hit from death when you end up pulling hate. If a ranger is doing a sidewinder in the first 50% of mobs health, then he sucks.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I have to agree with Xbob when i say, that was just a bad rng. Unfortunately, with the changes that were made to the job and the proclivity of people to flock like sheep to whatever is the new cool hot thing for their server, we received an influx of complete noobs to a job that, much like many others, needs intelligence, patience and control to perform correctly. Yeah i end up taking a few hits here and there in meripos, we all do, and yeah occasionally i @#%^ up or my SW/SS didnt do quite enough, it happens, but a good rng controls those instances as much as they can and limits them to the best of their ability.

no because being slept by a mob that wakes up is a bad thing, and you dont have shadows/third eye to absorb damage.

Woosh!

And this whole argument is exactly why whenever I merit on BRD, I do so only within my LS. If I want to roll with a RNG, I make it three RNGs, COR, WHM/SCH or RDM and my BRD. If I want a melee group, then I'll do that.

Song 1
Pull
Song 2
Pull, Sleep
Song 3
Pull, Sleep
Song 4
Pull, Sleep
Song 5
Pull, Sleep
Song 6
Pull, Sleep

If that is ALL you are doing as BRD in the party, I guaruntee you songs will be wearing off faster than you can put them back up. Add in recasting Shadows, occasional Finale on a Skoffin/Mamool, then 4 songs can even suffer the occasional drop to three.

And btw, I avoid birds like the plague. Call me old fashion, but I like eating good food. I also like empty camps, and that is much more common on Bahamut at MJSP than Birdies.

Well, pulling 2 mobs at a time is a matter of neccessity at MJSP. BST and DRG, assuming they've got pets up. Sleeping multiple mobs, or sleeping one and tanking another is no problem, but again this takes time away from being able to do a rotation including 5-6 songs.

Using Horde lullaby to keep 3 or more mobs slept is possible, but since your healer likely only has 2 sleeps and lullaby only lasts 33-36 seconds (instrument dependant), then this "can" cause problems. It won't always, but I'm pointing out it adds another element of unpredictability. And the last thing a BRD wants is three angry mobs waking up at the same time, 1 second into singing a buff.

Being a RNG I completely agree with everything you say. I would soon take my THF to a merit pt then my RNG (even though my RNG has pretty pimped out gear compared to my THF)

However, as a RNG and a COR, I will usually use buffs that help everyone. EX if we have a RNG, it'll probably end up being hunters / chaos or chaos / samurai roll.

bumptastic?

I really can't say. I try to use it before barrage or slugshot when its up and honestly can't say I pull less hate. If it is an enmity reduction, it is minor

It also immediately wears after job abilities/weapon skills, whereas I can keep it up for a few shots on regular shots provided the monster isn't facing me.

Other than the ranged distance messages which are nice for us 360 users, I can't say the job update was terribly useful for ranger. The Velocity shot timer change was nice but the 5 min recast is still too long