Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

STR vs. RAtk vs. AGI for the end-game RNG: Some answersFollow

#27 Oct 27 2006 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
*
236 posts
For STR bulid I was thinking more like

Woodville's/Ifrits's
Wyvern Helm
Chivvy Chain
Triumph x2
Osode
Hands slot hmmm . . . maybe RSE hands
Flame Ring x2
Amemit +1
RSE Belt
P Seraweels
RSE2 Feet

That's a lot of STR! Uber Sidewinder! When you hit XD
____________________________
Deschain - Gunslinger of Vana'diel (Siren server)
RNG 75/BST 75
WHM 42/NIN 37/WAR 37/THF 37/SAM 37
Rank 10 Bastok, ZM Done, CoP Done, ToAU 42, Assault First Lieutenant, WotG 3, Campaign Bronze Star
Pentacide Perpetrator
Breaker of the Chains
Alchemy 100(+3), Woodworking 60, Goldsmithing 54, Smithing 54, Cooking 60, Leathercrafting 36
#28 Oct 27 2006 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,209 posts
DeschainSiren wrote:

Chivvy Chain -> Justice Torque

fixed
____________________________
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
int stands for int.

#29 Oct 27 2006 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
****
7,094 posts
VZX wrote:
DeschainSiren wrote:

Amemit+1 -> Commander's Cape

fixed

fixed
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#30 Oct 27 2006 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
*
236 posts
Hmmm . . hadn't even seen Justice Torque. That would get you about a 2.5% increase to damage on average . . . bigger increase than the other choices.

Commander Cape loses to Amemit +1 though because 3 AGI & 3 STR < 15 RAtk and 2 STR under almost any conceviable circumstance.
____________________________
Deschain - Gunslinger of Vana'diel (Siren server)
RNG 75/BST 75
WHM 42/NIN 37/WAR 37/THF 37/SAM 37
Rank 10 Bastok, ZM Done, CoP Done, ToAU 42, Assault First Lieutenant, WotG 3, Campaign Bronze Star
Pentacide Perpetrator
Breaker of the Chains
Alchemy 100(+3), Woodworking 60, Goldsmithing 54, Smithing 54, Cooking 60, Leathercrafting 36
#31 Oct 28 2006 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
**
854 posts
Quote:
Body
Kirin's Osode - 6.41% SW, 6.64% SS

why would osode perform higher for slugshot than sidewinder?

edit: just did the math, i guess that's right :| just seems so strange, but I guess it's because the AGI boost on osode, going from sidewinder to slugshot, is jumping .53% whereas the STR boost on osode, going in reverse (slugshot to sidewinder), is jumping only .30%

basically, AGI is a really bad gear choice for Sidewinder, STR is literally 4 times better if you can find STR in that same slot. also, it looks like seiryu's kote only translates to if i'm reading this correctly 8.4375 ranged attack (on sidewinder). but Kote on slugshot translates to 12.5 ranged attack, making it a better option than CFG/BFG right?


10 AGI on slugshot gives you 1.8% increase in damage, but only 1.275% increase on sidewinder. the difference in damage between these two numbers (1.8% vs 1.275%) is much larger than the difference that STR gives (4.825% up on Slug, 5.125% up on Side)

also, is it safe to say that on normal shots, 2 STR = 1 r.atk, but on weaponskills, its 1 STR = 2.25 r.atk? that would make archer's jupon the best TP piece (12.5 ranged attack), and Osode the best WS piece

Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 12:22pm PDT by joesaiditstrue
____________________________
Quetzalcoatl Server
Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++
#32 Oct 28 2006 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,209 posts
joesaiditstrue wrote:

basically, AGI is really really really bad for Sidewinder, STR is literally 4 times better if i'm reading this correctly

Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 12:09pm PDT by joesaiditstrue

nope. not that bad.

Remember I said the result can be skewed

There's case adding 10 AGI can add 3 base damage to your WSC, but there also case it only add 2 base damage.
You need to be careful generating the number here. The calculation is discrete. It's either you gain another base damage or not at all.
Same goes with ratk. it's either your pDIF increase make difference or not

Let's take an example
assume you're fighting EM with def 300 and your ratk is 600 and your base damage is 130
your pDIF is 600/300 = 2.000

if you increase your ratk by 2, your ratk is 602
and your pDIF is 602/300 = 2.006
130 * 2.000 = 260
130 * 2.006 = 260.78 = 260
Essentially, adding 2 ratk at this case give you no impact to your damage

but if your ratk is 601 , adding 2 more ratk gives you impact
your pDIF is 603/300 = 2.010
your damage becomes : 130 * 2.010 = 261.3 = 261

See the subtle case there?

It's very important to not use all the continuous math here. There is so many truncation made over the formula. In the end you may overestimate/underestimate the number generated.

Int( 0.83 * Int(x + y)) is not the same as Int(0.83 * x) + Int(0.83*y)

Taking x = 33.4 and y = 66.6
Int( 0.83 * Int(x + y))
= Int (0.83 * Int (100.1)) = Int (0.83 * 100) = 83
Int (0.83 * x + 0.83 + y)
= Int ( Int(0.83 * 33.4) + Int(0.83 * 66.6))
= Int ( Int(27.722) + Int(55.278)) = 82






Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 12:37pm PDT by VZX
____________________________
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
int stands for int.

#33 Oct 28 2006 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
****
7,094 posts
joesaiditstrue wrote:
also, is it safe to say that on normal shots, 2 STR = 1 r.atk, but on weaponskills, its 1 STR = 2.25 r.atk?

You're confusing two different things.

On normal shots or WS, 2 STR gives 1 RATK. But for purposes of damage calculation, 2 STR is never equal to 1 RATK. Think about it; if 2 STR is equal to 1 RATK on normal shots, then 20 STR would be equal to 10 RATK. How could that be possible if 20 STR gives 10 RATK on it's own? You'd be completely ignoring fSTR2, which applies to both normal shots and WS.

Setting fSTR2 caps aside for the moment, STR's value on normal shots should be precisely equal to its value on Slug Shot. STR is only worth more on Sidewinder because of Sidewinder's STR WSC.

However, in the OP, this is a little misleading, because he's using O-bow (with acid effect) as the Slug weapon... so STR winds up making the same impact (relative to RATK) in both cases. If he were using a gun instead, the exchange rate of STR:RATK (currently listed as 1:2.25) would be weighted slightly more towards RATK (but still in STR's favor).
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#34 Oct 29 2006 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
*
236 posts
Just for kicks I ran the damage calc with the following setup:

Vulcan's Staff
Ebow/PPA
Wyvern Helm
Justice Torque
Triumph Earring x2
K Osode
BFG
Flame Ring x2
Amemit +1
AF2 Belt
P Seraweels
AF2 Feet

Red Curry, /WAR, Berserk, Minuet III & IV, Dia II, Acid Bolt def down, Choke all on.
Same mob stats as original test.

Essentially this is the highest-damaging setup you could run. I'd note that there is actually a decent amount of rng acc here, 21 from BFG, AF2 Belt, and P Seraweels, plus 40 from PPA, plus whatever you get from having +18 AGI. Also you could swap in S Kote for BFG for a bit more rng acc with no real change in damage.

Result: Sidewinder damage 2615. Ouch!
If you take off all the buffs/debuffs from other player members (minuet, dia, acid bolt, choke), damage falls to 1535 . . . roughly 40% of the damage is really due to contributions from other party members. Something to keep in mind when you 1337 rangers brag about how big your sidewinders are. XD

I'd note that even at this extreme setup PDif was 2.984 . . . so not quite capped out.

Edited, Oct 29th 2006 at 5:17pm PST by DeschainSiren, because /WAR can't dual-wield. >.<

Edited, Oct 29th 2006 at 5:18pm PST by DeschainSiren
____________________________
Deschain - Gunslinger of Vana'diel (Siren server)
RNG 75/BST 75
WHM 42/NIN 37/WAR 37/THF 37/SAM 37
Rank 10 Bastok, ZM Done, CoP Done, ToAU 42, Assault First Lieutenant, WotG 3, Campaign Bronze Star
Pentacide Perpetrator
Breaker of the Chains
Alchemy 100(+3), Woodworking 60, Goldsmithing 54, Smithing 54, Cooking 60, Leathercrafting 36
#35 Oct 29 2006 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,209 posts
Put Dia III and it's gonna be obviously capped :P

I've added Dia III in my spreadsheet but feeling lazy to upload + fixing link
____________________________
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
int stands for int.

#36 Oct 29 2006 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
154 posts
Quote:
Essentially this is the highest-damaging setup you could run.

Quote:
Result: Sidewinder damage 2630. Ouch!


Try using imps~flys def-vit since thats the best place for us to exp, 2 nights ago I did 2987 with no acid bolts just curry~bersek~dia2~minuetx2. I really want to know how much u can do vs imps with all buffs plz, curry~bersek~dia3~minuetx2~warcry~acid and maybe a tomahawk ^^

~Lagal Woodworking Veteran 100+3
#37 Oct 30 2006 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
869 posts
I know alot of work went into this but I wanted to see if anyone wanted
to do a little more work ^^
How about a breakdown of Racc to Damage by slot. In other words, how
about we compare where you can get the best bang for you buck by slot
while balancing +Racc gear. For instance, it the ring slot best used
for STR rings or are you better served using Behemoth rings and putting the STR gear in another slot? Many slots have Racc gear, some of almost no options.
Just at a glance, I'd say I'm not going to swap my Jagd for a civ chain because
I can get bang AND +racc in the same slot.
____________________________
Siren/Bastok/Rapierdwit RNG 75 WAR 75

Woodworking 96 + 3 All Key Items
Alchemy 60
Bonecraft 60
Smithing 55
Goldsmithing 47

My Passion - Ranger
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?37995
Warrior Merit *****
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?159155
#38 Oct 30 2006 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
91 posts
Don't forget to add Chaos Roll on a result of XI with a DRK in the party (for job bonus), to this perfect, however unlikely scenario for Sidewinder. That would make the party consist of (at least) RNG/WAR, RDM/BLM, COR, DRK, BRD. Might as well make the Bard use Soul Voice for completeness' sake.
____________________________
Dracont Gimp of Titan Diabolos
#39 Oct 31 2006 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
46 posts
Quote:
Kinda disappointing that Hope Torque is better than Breeze Gorget for WS :/ Although as your overall attack increases (Berserk, 2x Minuet, etc) that changes


it isn't better. like i've said before, the spreadsheet is wrong. elemental gorgets give slightly higher dmg on sidewinder than hope torque does. i have both and have tested them both repeatedly. test for yourself if you don't believe me.
#40 Oct 31 2006 at 8:20 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
46 posts
are you guys seriously gonna tell me justice torque is the best neck piece for rng when it isn't even that for a sam ws? a sea gorget gives sam a bigger increase in dmg on WS than justice torque does. how then is it gonna give rng the best increase? yeah yeah you'll say the calculations are different between ranged attack and sam ws. it doesn't matter. justice torque will not give the highest increase. a sea gorget is the best neck piece.
#41 Oct 31 2006 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
325 posts
Zarkooo wrote:
are you guys seriously gonna tell me justice torque is the best neck piece for rng when it isn't even that for a sam ws? a sea gorget gives sam a bigger increase in dmg on WS than justice torque does. how then is it gonna give rng the best increase? yeah yeah you'll say the calculations are different between ranged attack and sam ws. it doesn't matter. justice torque will not give the highest increase. a sea gorget is the best neck piece.


I think you answered your own question.
#42 Oct 31 2006 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
*
103 posts
So can you take this and apply it to the Gendawa +1 with the PPA to discover if it's hidden trait is true? And if so, to what extent does a full STR setup boost uncappable damage?
____________________________
World: Asura
Ollorin
THF 75, RNG 64, WAR 55, DRK 45, NIN 40, BST 40, RDM 30, BLM 19, WHM 15, MNK 14
#43 Oct 31 2006 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,209 posts
WTF with this "hidden effect"
____________________________
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
int stands for int.

#44 Oct 31 2006 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,298 posts
1. gendawa+1 had no hidden effect
2. good luck hitting the cap on mobs that matter
____________________________

#45 Oct 31 2006 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
**
437 posts
Very nice post! I'd rate up...if i knew how heh

Anyway, I wear Vishnu's Vest (yes my friend made it and let me use it otherwise I would not be able to afford it) for TP gain (however if i am the only RNG that does wear a Vishnu's Vest then you not wanting to compare it would be understandable). Since all i really have is AF body and Shikaree Aketon (ha don't think I've ever actually worn cept for messing around and 50cap stuff)

Edited, Oct 31st 2006 at 3:48pm PST by OMGItsABear
#46 Oct 31 2006 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
869 posts
OMGItsABear wrote:
Since all i really have is AF body and Shikaree Aketon (ha don't think I've ever actually worn cept for messing around and 50cap stuff)


Oh, I wonder how does the Shikaree Aketon rates?
____________________________
Siren/Bastok/Rapierdwit RNG 75 WAR 75

Woodworking 96 + 3 All Key Items
Alchemy 60
Bonecraft 60
Smithing 55
Goldsmithing 47

My Passion - Ranger
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?37995
Warrior Merit *****
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?159155
#47 Oct 31 2006 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
**
854 posts
Quote:
Oh, I wonder how does the Shikaree Aketon rates?


same as kyudogi, the only differences between the two are defense, level to use, and +7 ranged accuracy. kyudogi has a few other non-offensive stats (+7 evasion, magic damage reduction, etc.)

Edited, Oct 31st 2006 at 11:16pm PST by joesaiditstrue
____________________________
Quetzalcoatl Server
Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++
#48 Nov 01 2006 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
**
854 posts
Quote:
Well I'm more curious on how much Maat's Cap would effect damage %'s considering its like a mini Osode (+7).


Maat's Cap
(Using the original posters math)

Slugshot: 4.64%
Sidewinder: 4.48%
____________________________
Quetzalcoatl Server
Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++
#49 Nov 01 2006 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,630 posts
Guess my rng isnt as gimp as I thought. People always checked me and said I'm not but I always feel like it because no osode ; ;

____________________________
Thf75/Rng75/Blm75/Nin65/War65/Mnk52
Tdizzle-Ragnarok-SpikedFlail
http://tdizzle00.livejournal.com/
#50 Nov 01 2006 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
**
854 posts
just wondering if somebody could show the damage differences on a RNG with fully merited archery or slugshot, vs a RNG with zero merits in either combat skill
____________________________
Quetzalcoatl Server
Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++
#51 Nov 01 2006 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
**
325 posts
can i get a stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeyyyyyy on this thread???
____________________________
75RNG/75THF/75BST/75PLD/48WAR/37SAM/39DRK/40BLM/26RDM MITHRA
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)