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New JAs and Spells Fresh Out from SEFollow

#52 Aug 27 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
Quote:
Why wouldn't I?


Because we were talking about the 95 Apocalypse so I figured you'd I dunno, use a level 95?

Quote:
Level 101 pDif Correction 0.55 Defense 560 Dia II? 1 Final Def 504 Evasion 430 Vit 110 Agi 100


Quote:
I'm not assuming anything, its math.


What mob is this? Is it Apademak or a Dragua? Is it an IT wyvern? I want to know where you got these stats from. If you just made up the stats of some level 101 Abyssea mob, then it's math based on an assumption, which is still an assumption.

Also, you never addressed the massive HP boost, or the 20% boost to Healing potency on Catastrophe.


The most intriguing thing you've said in this thread is that I can augment me an Armadaberk to have STP.




I didn't use 95 because we don't know a thing about 95. I did use a 150% damage boost to Cata, if you would like to give me more info about DRK at 95 I'd be more then happy to plug it in, but as of right now nobody knows. I tried to make it simple for you by providing the same numbers on a mob that has super low stats.

The 101 mob stats are a very good estimate of a Scars lvl NM by Kinematics and as we all know he has his stuff together when it comes to mathing this game.

How would you like me to quantify a HP bonus and 20% healing bonus?

How about you provide some math proving me wrong? You asked for facts and I provided them, feel free to counter, you arguments are the ones filled with speculation and easily proved wrong.
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#53 Aug 27 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I didn't use 95 because we don't know a thing about 95. I did use a 150% damage boost to Cata, if you would like to give me more info about DRK at 95 I'd be more then happy to plug it in, but as of right now nobody knows. I tried to make it simple for you by providing the same numbers on a mob that has super low stats.


This started on the speculation of the boost, and we were talking 95. First, you could consider the 5 less levels of level correction. Next, you could at least use the next 5 levels worth of skill for Scythe and Dark Magic Skill. Those would be a start. That, or not trying to plug in hard numbers for an, as of now, imaginary what if situation that someone else was talking about, like a jackass.

Even if it's Kinematics, there are too many unknown variables to be sure enough to base numbers on. For all you know it could be a straight physical damage down trait in there making it seems higher level. The reason we could find levels before was we could use the exp formula and work backwards to determine the level of the mob. Abyssea brought in a new EXP formula. I'd rather wait until it comes out and just parse a few numbers and plug them in.

Quote:
How would you like me to quantify a HP bonus and 20% healing bonus?


Well quantifying the HP bonus as damage bonus through SE is a bit simpler. Quantifying it as a bonus to dread spikes and surviving is harder. The 20% healing? I never said to quantify it, I wanted you to consider it.

Quote:
How about you provide some math proving me wrong? You asked for facts and I provided them, feel free to counter, you arguments are the ones filled with speculation and easily proved wrong.


I'll provide math when the update comes out instead of being a pure napkinmathing **** on a comment someone else made. You didn't provide facts either: You provided guesstimations, based on assumptions of imaginary numbers in simplified, hypothetical situations. You're like a physics professor with your numbers.
#54 Aug 28 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
Quote:
I didn't use 95 because we don't know a thing about 95. I did use a 150% damage boost to Cata, if you would like to give me more info about DRK at 95 I'd be more then happy to plug it in, but as of right now nobody knows. I tried to make it simple for you by providing the same numbers on a mob that has super low stats.


This started on the speculation of the boost, and we were talking 95. First, you could consider the 5 less levels of level correction. Next, you could at least use the next 5 levels worth of skill for Scythe and Dark Magic Skill. Those would be a start. That, or not trying to plug in hard numbers for an, as of now, imaginary what if situation that someone else was talking about, like a jackass.

Even if it's Kinematics, there are too many unknown variables to be sure enough to base numbers on. For all you know it could be a straight physical damage down trait in there making it seems higher level. The reason we could find levels before was we could use the exp formula and work backwards to determine the level of the mob. Abyssea brought in a new EXP formula. I'd rather wait until it comes out and just parse a few numbers and plug them in.

Quote:
How would you like me to quantify a HP bonus and 20% healing bonus?


Well quantifying the HP bonus as damage bonus through SE is a bit simpler. Quantifying it as a bonus to dread spikes and surviving is harder. The 20% healing? I never said to quantify it, I wanted you to consider it.

Quote:
How about you provide some math proving me wrong? You asked for facts and I provided them, feel free to counter, you arguments are the ones filled with speculation and easily proved wrong.


I'll provide math when the update comes out instead of being a pure napkinmathing **** on a comment someone else made. You didn't provide facts either: You provided guesstimations, based on assumptions of imaginary numbers in simplified, hypothetical situations. You're like a physics professor with your numbers.



I was wondering how long you could hold out on the 5hit grade name calling lol.

I provided you with a similar senario to being lvl 95. A mob where att,acc,str,dex were all capped and no level correction, what else happens as we go up to 95 besides the new JAs?

The math is provided on how this game works. You can change the stats of the mobs any which way and AaO alwasy comes out on top from a damage perspective. It gets closer as you engage weaker enemies where the attack from AaO is doing nothing and the WS damage is boosted. But whats the point of mathing Fodder when everyone looks like a boss when attacking them and taking damage will never be a concern. As you get to mid level and high level mobs AaO pulls away from the damage perspective by a long shot. Whether the HP lose is a big deal depends on the player,race,abyssites and the rest of the party.

When you are playing with weapons that have very high white damage the atmas that boost the melee damage even more are going to pull ahead.
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#55 Aug 28 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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it's FFXIbumfights, all over again.
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#56 Aug 28 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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You skewed the results in your favor by neglecting things that hurt your argument, or things that you didn't want to figure because of the difficulty of doing so.

You completely neglected SE damage, which is @#%^ing HUGE.

You completely ignored the fact that spillover can lower the actual amount of WSes more TA provides.

You didn't consider JAs like Meditate and Sekkanoki which skew the results in favor of GC.

You forgot Self SC damage which is a huge part of being a full haste Apoc DRK. Multi-tiered Darkness spam is a large part of your damage, and GC is a straight 20% boost to it.

But go on, keep napkinmathing like a **** and praising your guesstimations as the truth Professor.


Quote:
it's FFXIbumfights, all over again.


It's better than a dead forum.



And if you don't like it you could just shut the **** up and go away.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 3:20pm by Return1
#57 Aug 28 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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no thanks, poking fun at retards is way too much fun. seriously, no one has more than a (semi) educated guess about how this is going to work at 95, or on what particular mob. folks are arguing to argue, and it's even gayer than normal.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#58 Aug 28 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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So you agree with me on the topic?

What's gayer still is someone who actually goes out of his way to read others' arguments then complain about their arguing in a dead forum. That's like the Liberace of forum goers.
#59 Aug 28 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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hey if it's liberace-level **** to let people know they're **** up a thread, then pass me some of that good good butt.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#60 Aug 28 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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It is when the thread is pretty dead. I'm sure Turin will give you some **** if you want it. His level of **** is far greater than Liberace proportions.
#61 Aug 28 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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3,507 posts
god, i love this board.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#62 Aug 28 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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100 posts
Return1 wrote:
You skewed the results in your favor by neglecting things that hurt your argument, or things that you didn't want to figure because of the difficulty of doing so.

You completely neglected SE damage, which is @#%^ing HUGE.

You completely ignored the fact that spillover can lower the actual amount of WSes more TA provides.

You didn't consider JAs like Meditate and Sekkanoki which skew the results in favor of GC.

You forgot Self SC damage which is a huge part of being a full haste Apoc DRK. Multi-tiered Darkness spam is a large part of your damage, and GC is a straight 20% boost to it.

But go on, keep napkinmathing like a **** and praising your guesstimations as the truth Professor.


Quote:
it's FFXIbumfights, all over again.


It's better than a dead forum.



And if you don't like it you could just shut the @#%^ up and go away.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 3:20pm by Return1




SE doesn't favor Griffin claw. When you are sitting at 3000+hp the 10%TA and the reduction of HP from AaO are a wash. On Fodder mobs the SE boost on WSs is a smaller percentage of the damage and on harder mobs the TA will win. Spill over doesn't lower weapon skill frequency, it actually adds more to melee damage. (again helping AaO) We all know rounds happen instantly and its rounds to 100tp not swings to 100tp (within the same xhit) that matters. Both setups will be doing self light and actual WS damage is not far off from each other. Where griffin claw gets close in damage self SCing can't happen so thats a terrible point.

Not sure why you prefer your speculation over the math. You haven't provided a single piece/point to back your argument you are just nit picking mine and not doing a good job of it.

Edit: and this is all assuming your 150% boost in Cata damage, in the current game its not even a close consideration.




Edited, Aug 28th 2011 5:56pm by TaintCerberus
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#63 Aug 28 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SE doesn't favor Griffin claw.


...

ITT: Losing 25% of max HP has no affect on SE damage.


Quote:
Spill over doesn't lower weapon skill frequency, it actually adds more to melee damage


It doesn't lower WS frequency, it lowers the expected gain in WS frequency though.

Quote:
Both setups will be doing self Darkness


ftfy

Quote:
actual WS damage is not far off from each other.


Only on mobs with high defense that you can't cap or get **** near it on, relatively rare in abyssea btw, and have a decent level correction function.

Quote:
Where griffin claw gets close in damage self SCing can't happen so thats a terrible point.


Wut? I guess you're saying GC is only close in trash mobs where Self SC isn't useable. It still provides large benefits on higher level mobs do to SE damage boost being a larger part of damage, and self SCs. Your own arguments turned against you.

That one mob you pointed out earlier, the 560 defense mob, with just dia II and LR you're capped on him 72% of the time with only minimal outside assistance, that you couldn't be doing without.

In abyssea you have a **** of DD buffs from medicines and the methods of adding DEF down have spread since back in the day. BLUs are extremely common in Abyssea groups, as well as DNC and /DNC. Just sticking a frightful roar would pretty much put you at cap full time with lvl 95 stats. Making it -25% HP and 10% TA vs 20% WS damage. Oh, btw, GC is only 30 attack behind A&O.



Quote:
Not sure why you prefer your speculation over the math. You haven't provided a single piece/point to back your argument you are just nit picking mine and not doing a good job of it.


I prefer speculation when dealing with speculation and math when dealing with controls. Even then I prefer math that isn't touted as the be all end all and absolutely right by a napkinmathing **** that leaves **** out left and right.

Lets just go over the errors in your "math":

1) You did an "exact" values test on a a speculation subject. That's just a douche move to start.

2) You did the test with lvl 90 stats when speaking of a level 95 weapon.

3) You don't have a real target. You have a "guess" at the "average" target's stats. Doing specific numbers off of guesstimated values is stupid.

4) You neglect part of the argument and a portion of the damage because you either don't know how to account for it, or because it doesn't fit your argument: SE damage boost and Dread Spikes.

5) You're neglecting "intangibles" because they can't be explained with napkin math, they must not exist.

6) You even did the numbers, the ones you bothered to do, wrong. You forgot to count the 10skill from GC.

7) If it were a 150% bonus, GC would be slaughtering A&O. It's a 50% bonus goddammit, a 1.50 multiplier. A 150% bonus would be a 2.50 multiplier.

I'm not going to respond with math on a speculative subject because it's **** stupid. You're trying to be exact while predicting the **** future. Can you really not see why it's stupid for you to math it up in this situation? You have no argument. I'm not nitpicking I'm pointing out your argument is a cluster **** of fail.

Future changes that would invalidate all math done now completely:

Augments to Apoc.

Changes to Job Specific Merits.

Changes to stat growth.

Dark Celerity/Absorb buffs.

New Job Traits.

New Job Abilities.

New Gear.

Badass hidden effects figured out that change something.

WS rebalancing/changes: For example, all WSs could be made to crit.

Actual Abyssea stats put out.
#64 Aug 29 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
Quote:
SE doesn't favor Griffin claw.


...

ITT: Losing 25% of max HP has no affect on SE damage.


And TA has a huge effect on SE.


Quote:
Spill over doesn't lower weapon skill frequency, it actually adds more to melee damage

It doesn't lower WS frequency, it lowers the expected gain in WS frequency though.


Over TP is factored in, look at the numbers and white damage is not a bad thing for Apoc. Esp with SE.



Quote:
actual WS damage is not far off from each other.

Only on mobs with high defense that you can't cap or get **** near it on, relatively rare in abyssea btw, and have a decent level correction function.


I provided you with numbers on a low Def mob and the WS damage was still similar. TA does a lot of WS damage, I'm sure you are aware of that.


Quote:
Where griffin claw gets close in damage self SCing can't happen so thats a terrible point.

Wut? I guess you're saying GC is only close in trash mobs where Self SC isn't useable. It still provides large benefits on higher level mobs do to SE damage boost being a larger part of damage, and self SCs. Your own arguments turned against you.

That one mob you pointed out earlier, the 560 defense mob, with just dia II and LR you're capped on him 72% of the time with only minimal outside assistance, that you couldn't be doing without.

In abyssea you have a sh*tload of DD buffs from medicines and the methods of adding DEF down have spread since back in the day. BLUs are extremely common in Abyssea groups, as well as DNC and /DNC. Just sticking a frightful roar would pretty much put you at cap full time with lvl 95 stats. Making it -25% HP and 10% TA vs 20% WS damage. Oh, btw, GC is only 30 attack behind A&O.


The +10 skill from GC is factored in, look at the math. And I didn't post numbers on 1 mob, I posted 2. One with Def and one without. Did you miss that post?




Quote:
Not sure why you prefer your speculation over the math. You haven't provided a single piece/point to back your argument you are just nit picking mine and not doing a good job of it.

I prefer speculation when dealing with speculation and math when dealing with controls. Even then I prefer math that isn't touted as the be all end all and absolutely right by a napkinmathing @#%^tard that leaves sh*t out left and right.

Lets just go over the errors in your "math":

1) You did an "exact" values test on a a speculation subject. That's just a douche move to start.


And as I stated you can change the mobs lvl,def,vit,agi etc and still come up with the same result. AaO pulls ahead. Last time I did Abyssea I fought atleast a dozen different mobs.

Quote:
2) You did the test with lvl 90 stats when speaking of a level 95 weapon.


You asked for a 150% damage Apoc, I gave you that. At 125% AaO slaughters GC.

Quote:
3) You don't have a real target. You have a "guess" at the "average" target's stats. Doing specific numbers off of guesstimated values is stupid.


Again changing the target mobs stats doesn't effect the result.

Quote:
4) You neglect part of the argument and a portion of the damage because you either don't know how to account for it, or because it doesn't fit your argument: SE damage boost and Dread Spikes.


I have ran the numbers with SE (yes thats a feature of the dps calc) the results are the same. TA = HP boost. Dread spikes difference in damage is very nominal and won't tip the scales and thats assuming a DRK has hate, which is not the norm in Abyssea.

Quote:
5) You're neglecting "intangibles" because they can't be explained with napkin math, they must not exist.


The intangibles are different enough to matter when the DPS isn't close. They don't disappear because you use AaO they are just slightly reduceed.

Quote:
6) You even did the numbers, the ones you bothered to do, wrong. You forgot to count the 10skill from GC.


Nope its in there, read the math before you make comments.

Quote:
7) If it were a 150% bonus, GC would be slaughtering A&O. It's a 50% bonus goddammit, a 1.50 multiplier. A 150% bonus would be a 2.50 multiplier.


Not sure i'm following you. I took WS damage and multiplied it by 1.5 and for GC by another 1.2.

Quote:
I'm not going to respond with math on a speculative subject because it's @#%^ing stupid. You're trying to be exact while predicting the @#%^ing future. Can you really not see why it's stupid for you to math it up in this situation? You have no argument. I'm not nitpicking I'm pointing out your argument is a cluster @#%^ of fail.



This all started from your speculative 150% bonus to Cata would make GC a good 3rd atma. I just proved that a 150% bonus doesn't help make GC more then an epeen/brew atma. If it was better I'd use it, I play all my jobs to be the best. If in the future JAs, merits yada yada come to play, its not hard to rerun the numbers. Why don't you play with the DPS calculator yourself? This game is all easy math but understanding the math seperates the casuals and the people that play to be the best. I find you wanting.


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#65 Aug 29 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Instead of playing with a **** calculator, I like using actual data. Parsing numbers, large sample sizes, and using all ja/jt/stats. This is why I refuse to run/post numbers before **** comes out.

Quote:
The +10 skill from GC is factored in, look at the math.


taint wrote:
Skill 384 384


I was wrong, but you can probably see what confused me.

Quote:
I have ran the numbers with SE (yes thats a feature of the dps calc) the results are the same. TA = HP boost.


Then you may have calculated wrong because GC should be something like 15% more SE damage.


Quote:
thats assuming a DRK has hate, which is not the norm in Abyssea.


DRK isn't the norm in abyssea. BRD s well. Also, Apoc is one good upgrade and DRK one update away from becoming powerhouse DDs in abyssea as well as outside. The 90 upgrade to Apoc gained a good amount of ground on the abyssea DDs.

Quote:
You asked for a 150% damage Apoc, I gave you that.


No I was interested in a level 95 Apoc with at least +50% damage. I assumed people could figure out a 95 drk would be using the 95 Apoc.

Quote:
Not sure i'm following you. I took WS damage and multiplied it by 1.5 and for GC by another 1.2.


Semantics. A 1.50 multiplier is a 50% damage bonus. You keep saying it's a 150% bonus, which is wrong.


I understand math just fine. You just don't seem to understand I don't care about math done on pure speculation.
#66 Aug 29 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Glad to see I can go on vacation a few days and Taint still hasn't learned how to punch the right, and complete, numbers into a calculator.

Return is right, Taint has once again blown out a ton of factors that work in the favor of what he has deemed the 'loser' and will never, ever, go back and fix them no matter how huge we point out the flaws in his math to be.

Still have some corrections all-around:

Abyssea mobs aren't ever going to go up in level any more. They are locked in because Abyssea is 'done', so cutting your level correction in half against a target is a huge difference in damage but not reaching capped attack on anything in Abyssea is absolutely asinine, so it really should affect both builds equally anyway. It only makes a difference in Taint's math when he uses gimp-ass attack values.

10% TA on top of 15% TA? 15.3% more hits. -25% HP is actually applied to base HP only. 3000 HP is still a stretch for either build, 2850 is closer for anything but Galka, so A&O takes about 14% off. A&O is a paltry 1-2% gain in Souleater output if stacked on Apoc atma. I don't need a f*cking gimpulator. The Att+ is irrelevant.

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 5:05pm by Raelix
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#67 Aug 30 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
Only have to deal with retards if you're retarded enough to do PUG.
We had a linkshell steal Guku from us the other day after we claimed. They proceeded to proc and kill all the while they were laughing at us. Apparently they were shocked when we still got the KI.

Yes, I know this doesn't mean anything, but I felt the need to share.

Edited, Aug 20th 2011 4:41pm by xypin


Sorry, I just noticed this and I know it does not have anything to do with this thread but I am pretty sure I was in the LS that took the Guku. Just want to tell the whole story since you left some stuff out. If this was not you and another similar situation then I am sorry (I can only remember one guys name from the group).

So we were trying to finish a guys Almace in our shell and we were out camping Guku. We lost claim and decided to pop the two Sobek pops we had while we waited on repop. We kill our two Sobeks and think its probably time to start camping guku again. One guy needs to get time so as he is running back he notices guku near the flux still at like 70% (needless to say this is like 12-14 mins after it was claimed). We are like "WTF?!" so we go over there to see someone dead, Guku white, and no one doing anything to claim it again (it was white for a good 5-6 seconds after I got there). No, they did not do anything to try to claim after we got there. So we claim, proc within a minute and kill it. I honestly didn't know they would get KI but to be honest we were not really upset. We were just **** at how much time they were wasting. I think it was BS that it took over 12 minutes to do something that takes 3-4. If you think that's a **** move then whatever, but seriously if you are going to waste peoples time like that then you are going to incite moves that people normally wouldn't do (that is literally the fist NM we have "stolen" that I can remember).
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#68 Aug 30 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
pure napkinmathing ****

Quote:
His level of **** is far greater than Liberace proportions.

Quote:
Instead of playing with a **** calculator


It is funny how on some Alla threads the mods will warn people about "harsh comments" for calling someone out for having a stupid idea but in this thread people are allowed to spew offensive hate speach without anyone giving a crap.

You think you can defend your point without offending a whole group of people? Making statements to attack someone based on preference is pretty messed up and I am suprised no one else has told you that you should talk to a friend about your issues with hate, also I am suprised the mods haven't said **** about it.

It is pretty much the same as if I say it is 2011 stop gaybashing and get on board with hating the muslims. That is ok to say right?



#69 Aug 30 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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People need to get over **** and "hate speech".

**** hasn't been hate speech in a long time. The only people still offended by it are people making money off of being offended or people covered head to toe in thousands of tiny vaginas.

**** are any dumbass that says something **** stupid or annoying.
#70 Aug 30 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
Instead of playing with a **** calculator, I like using actual data. Parsing numbers, large sample sizes, and using all ja/jt/stats. This is why I refuse to run/post numbers before sh*t comes out.


Understand that parsing is a big calculator and everything in a parse can be explained with the DPS calc, once all the formulas were figured out (from parsing) they were no longer needed. Human error also benefits on the side of melee damage (AaO in this case) because unless you are running a WS app you won't be WSing the exact second you get 100+tp.



Quote:
Then you may have calculated wrong because GC should be something like 15% more SE damage.


Interesting, whats that base on?


Quote:
DRK isn't the norm in abyssea. BRD s well. Also, Apoc is one good upgrade and DRK one update away from becoming powerhouse DDs in abyssea as well as outside. The 90 upgrade to Apoc gained a good amount of ground on the abyssea DDs.


I'm a huge Apoc fan and think most DRKs (esp. caladborg users) underestimate just how good Apoc is. I had Apoc #18 in this game and have always geared DRK to the max. Abyssea still isn't DRK friendly though but I agree it has gotten better.



Quote:
No I was interested in a level 95 Apoc with at least +50% damage. I assumed people could figure out a 95 drk would be using the 95 Apoc.


I was trying to run a senario that showed what a 50% damage boost would do to change the optimal Atmas for Apoc. As of right now AaO > GC (at 90) without a doubt. I then ran the lvl 80 mob which had no level correction and had capped att,acc,str,dex etc which is what we would gain at 95, besides new JAs. Once the lvl correction is 0, fstr and att are capped you don't gain additional damage. Its the same reason you won't hit a lvl 1 bunny more then you would hit a lvl 50 dhalmel.


Quote:
I understand math just fine. You just don't seem to understand I don't care about math done on pure speculation.


Fair enough. I think you should play with the Calculator some, if you enjoying parsing like I used to, you'll enjoy being able to isolate circumstances. I can email my Apoc friendly copy of it.
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#71 Aug 30 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
Glad to see I can go on vacation a few days and Taint still hasn't learned how to punch the right, and complete, numbers into a calculator.

Return is right, Taint has once again blown out a ton of factors that work in the favor of what he has deemed the 'loser' and will never, ever, go back and fix them no matter how huge we point out the flaws in his math to be.

Still have some corrections all-around:

Quote:
Abyssea mobs aren't ever going to go up in level any more. They are locked in because Abyssea is 'done', so cutting your level correction in half against a target is a huge difference in damage but not reaching capped attack on anything in Abyssea is absolutely asinine, so it really should affect both builds equally anyway. It only makes a difference in Taint's math when he uses gimp-ass attack values.


What??? I provided the same numbers where every single stat was capped. Did you read the thread or just want to argue?


[quote] A&O is a paltry 1-2% gain in Souleater output if stacked on Apoc atma.



Not following how you got 1-2% SE gain. Everyone understands the 10% TA stacks with WSs. If I estimated the HP high. (I sit at 2900 in abyssea) Then that favors GC so try again.


If thats what you got out of the convo, you should just leave me and Return1 alone, he atleast seems to understand the game.
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#72 Aug 30 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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That definitely wasn't us- that or you're getting two situations confused. It is possible that you were part of the group that took our NM, but there's no way we would have taken 12 minutes to do anything because just like you, we're sick of BS and watching army-sized linkshells bore NMs to death. If we need to kill anyone off and switch claim, it'll happen before the NM even drops below 95%. We also never fight guku at a flux. I'm curious, what was the name that you remember? (I'm sure I've seen the group around as well)

As far as dealing with all the **** we come across farming empy weapons- if any group is taking too long, we claim the first moment we get, proc and kill, just so we can move forward. If there are drops, we usually return most of them assuming the group didn't run away. I don't particularly care if people steal KI NMs because we do it at least once a night. A group should never lose claim unless they're absolutely struggling, so I see no problem with claiming and killing.
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#73 Aug 30 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Faggot hasn't been hate speech in a long time



Anything is hate when you use it to reinforce something negative. You are not as good at this because you are *blank*. This watch is *blank* so it does not work as well. You are wrong and not as smart as me because you are *blank*

You do not get to decide what people think is offensive, the things you say are and I think you are smart enough to realize.


Edit: Why is my box so big :(

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 2:45pm by Quinildorff
#74 Aug 30 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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I love hate speech and offending people!
#75 Aug 30 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Oh ok, like I said I wasn't sure if that was you guys or not. But the name of the leader was Aldaris. I have seen him shouting in PJ for people to do Sobek.
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#76 Aug 30 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Anything is hate when you use it to reinforce something negative. You are not as good at this because you are *blank*. This watch is *blank* so it does not work as well. You are wrong and not as smart as me because you are *blank*


If that were really the case, all IDIOTS and terminally STUPID would be crying hate crime for everyone calling their stupid asses idiots because they're stupid. Well they wouldn't because they're too **** stupid, but someone wanting to make some money sure woul...brb making a scene for cash.


Homosexuals just need to get over the fact that they don't exclusively own **** Faggot is no longer a homosexual slur, it's the idiot of 2009-2011. Hell, they lost exclusive rights to **** too.

Quote:
Interesting, whats that base on?


Fallacious belief that the -25% hp was just tacked on the end. It's a -14% ish loss of HP? So it means GC only does 1-2% more SE damage than the TA. I concede the point.

Quote:
Once the lvl correction is 0, fstr and att are capped you don't gain additional damage. Its the same reason you won't hit a lvl 1 bunny more then you would hit a lvl 50 dhalmel.


Don't patronize me.

Quote:
Fair enough. I think you should play with the Calculator some, if you enjoying parsing like I used to, you'll enjoy being able to isolate circumstances. I can email my Apoc friendly copy of it.


Send me a copy when the update comes out. I'd actually like to use math when we have solid numbers.
#77 Aug 30 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Once the lvl correction is 0, fstr and att are capped you don't gain additional damage. Its the same reason you won't hit a lvl 1 bunny more then you would hit a lvl 50 dhalmel.


Don't patronize me.[/quote]



Honestly wasn't trying to, was just reiterating a point you understand that others seem to want to argue.


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#78 Aug 30 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, separate gripe and unrelated to the discussion at hand, but Taint really needs to learn how to use the quote button.

Short version: The -%HP and TA on A&O practically balances itself out on Souleater output unless you're solidly breaking 3k HP. Those 100 hits include WS either way, it's just a 'hits added' multiplier.

GC does nothing for Souleater, so the Souleater point is moot. Else, if you really want to consider that 1%; it's 1% of like 20% (considering time Souleater is actually up, mob surviving the duration, etc). You can sneeze at a bad time and lose 0.2% off your parse.

I still support that Taint's arrangement again is highly suspect and weighted heavily in circumstance and situation towards A&O pulling ahead, especially when considering factors that everyone else agrees do not actually exist in Abyssea (obscenely high level mobs, uncapped attack). Many or most NM targets in Abyssea have flat damage reduction, even that chump Chickcharney if you throw some magical WS at him, so they appear to be higher level than they truly are.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 3:32pm by Raelix
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#79 Aug 31 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
Okay, separate gripe and unrelated to the discussion at hand, but Taint really needs to learn how to use the quote button.

Short version: The -%HP and TA on A&O practically balances itself out on Souleater output unless you're solidly breaking 3k HP. Those 100 hits include WS either way, it's just a 'hits added' multiplier.

GC does nothing for Souleater, so the Souleater point is moot. Else, if you really want to consider that 1%; it's 1% of like 20% (considering time Souleater is actually up, mob surviving the duration, etc). You can sneeze at a bad time and lose 0.2% off your parse.

I still support that Taint's arrangement again is highly suspect and weighted heavily in circumstance and situation towards A&O pulling ahead, especially when considering factors that everyone else agrees do not actually exist in Abyssea (obscenely high level mobs, uncapped attack). Many or most NM targets in Abyssea have flat damage reduction, even that chump Chickcharney if you throw some magical WS at him, so they appear to be higher level than they truly are.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 3:32pm by Raelix





Again read the thread. I provided an example of a mob with no lvl correction, capped att,acc,str,dex.

101 lvl mobs do exist in Abyssea and so do mobs with 560 (504 after dia) Def, its not as far fetched as you think. In the Heros zones its probably higher then that.
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#80 Aug 31 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
Again read the thread. I provided an example of a mob with no lvl correction, capped att,acc,str,dex.

And yet you still **** it up if you look at the HP values, actually it looks like you didn't have Souleater in there at all, and the final result was a 1% difference.

Smells like sidegrade.
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#81 Sep 01 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
TaintCerberus wrote:
Again read the thread. I provided an example of a mob with no lvl correction, capped att,acc,str,dex.

And yet you still **** it up if you look at the HP values, actually it looks like you didn't have Souleater in there at all, and the final result was a 1% difference.

Smells like sidegrade.



Already stated it was close on Fodder. AaO is the norm, GC would be the sidegrade. And thats all assuming we get a 1.5x damage boost to Cata. In the current game AaO is the best, unless you need the extra HP and even then SS would be a great option to consider.

Just ran the numbers 2% away from each other with the current multiplier. .
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#82 Sep 01 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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so Apocalypse's new damage is 154, no change to ACC. There has to be some hidden effect in there somewhere, and SE did say they were going to add more than just DMG and ACC/ATK to relics. Can't wait to get my hands on it.
#83 Sep 02 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
so Apocalypse's new damage is 154, no change to ACC. There has to be some hidden effect in there somewhere, and SE did say they were going to add more than just DMG and ACC/ATK to relics. Can't wait to get my hands on it.



Yeah I think the real upgrades wont be disclosed until the update.

2-3 on Liberator will be pretty insane.
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#84 Sep 02 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
2-3 on Liberator will still be pretty lame.


ftfy

Having to gimp it up with Insurgency at 300tp and Guillotine between isn't all that impressive for a Relic class weapon. The lack of stats on Liberator really hurt it. Apocalypse generally has more ACC/ATK/STR/etc. thanks to the 35acc built in and the 10% haste Aftermath, and comes with a superior WS with the ability to Self-SC up to double Darkness and heal yourself 30-100% of the damage done.
#85 Sep 02 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
Quote:
2-3 on Liberator will still be pretty lame.


ftfy

Having to gimp it up with Insurgency at 300tp and Guillotine between isn't all that impressive for a Relic class weapon. The lack of stats on Liberator really hurt it. Apocalypse generally has more ACC/ATK/STR/etc. thanks to the 35acc built in and the 10% haste Aftermath, and comes with a superior WS with the ability to Self-SC up to double Darkness and heal yourself 30-100% of the damage done.
insurgency gets the same +30% damage boost that cata does on apoc 90, and at 75 Insurgency was already better single WS for damage over cata, its pitfall is that it cant self light, but the OA2-3 CAN PROC ON WS for mythics, which is **** pimp, why the **** would you ever pop guillotine instead of insurgency on a 90 liberator
#86 Sep 02 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
insurgency gets the same +25% damage boost that cata does on apoc 90


This I didn't know, but still Catastrophe pulls ahead on stronger things, since Apoc and the aftermath lends itself to much, much higher ATR/STR/WSC stats, and the ACC bonus on the first hit of WSes means you cap out on just about anything without wearing any gear for it, and you're right the Self SCs though is where Insurgency loses its luster.

Quote:
the OA2-3 CAN PROC ON WS for mythics


Really? That is pretty **** wicked then.


We don't know what hidden boosts Apoc has though, we'll have to wait and see. Here's hoping for a 1.5 multiplier at least and a 20-30% proc rate on ODD.



Also, how come we get the shaft on our Relic of choice? Other relics get the DMG, the ATK/ACC, and the WS boost, but also get a secondary boost up as well, while we're still stuck with **** Blind. That's my only complaint about the upgrades so far, some relics with added effects get cheated a bit.
#87 Sep 02 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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That's why a proper Ryunohige is the strongest weapon in the game Abyssea. **** Ukon.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 4:59pm by Raelix
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#88 Sep 02 2011 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Ya I can't wait to see what is going on, 10 animated kills is going to be so freaking easy. Start collecting your pop items now. Considering we can kill multiple in one run.

Can you image if they gave Apoc 2-3 per round after WS to go along with haste and drain hehe.

They also increased the duration of our new JA from 60 seconds to 180 seconds.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 8:45pm by UNCTGTG

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 8:45pm by UNCTGTG
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#89 Sep 02 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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As much as I wish they'd add a multihit to Apocalypse, I doubt it'll ever happen.

Also, I thought the SD change was now we get 2 minutes to take damage, 1 minute of dealing damage, and 2 minutes of cool down. That's what my friend explained it as, and it seems like such a letdown.
#90 Sep 02 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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95 redemption trial "Aquire 1500 plates of heavy metal" so...thisll suck

edit: Penitence +3 requires 100 devious dice

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 9:43pm by Finuve
#91 Sep 02 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Malificence+3
Scythe Ex Rare Lv95 D56 Delay528
DRK

Same damage as +2 tells me increased multihit rate. Sh*t just got real.
BULLSH*T! It gets -27 delay. Not worth upgrading if you have 5-hit 528.

Giving them a good **** on the official forums. I'd expect a damage increase at least if they're not gonna give 2-5 or 2-6.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:20am by Raelix
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#92 Sep 03 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah wtf on the 2-4 scythe.

The new JA might last 180 seconds but the report is it only counts for 1 hit. So you need to use it right before a big GA or JA from the mob. After its proced the weapon boost is 60 seconds. Making it 60-180 didn't seem to help much.
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