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#52 Jul 07 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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New content outside Abyssea Apoc rapes both emps. (+71acc is huge outside) Ukon is the games best DD weapon in any zone any time. Its more dramatic inside abyssea but its still king outside. Redemption is garbage, SE needs to fix it, bad WS, bad delay. Its not better the cata in abyssea and outside quiteus hits harder then cata but the rest of redemption/drk fails it. Cala is pretty great (for DRK) in abyssea but DRK/DRKs gear hurt it on the newer stuff. I didn't realize just how much of an acc loss there was going from apoc to any other DRK weapon and keeping haste capped until I just mathed it out.
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#53 Jul 08 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, people tend to think that just because they can cap gear haste on DRK now, that the haste is useless. They're ******* stupid. They act like that 26% in gear is welded to their asses. They're like raelix and just neglect tradeoffs altogether.

Cata is great damage and the best scythe WS on anything that isn't defensive to the point that ignore defense on Quietus would be a huge enough boost to overcome Cata's damage bonus.

On Ukon, It's not the best DD weapon in the game. It's just wielded by the job with the best tools in the game. Verethragna is the better weapon.
#54 Jul 08 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Return1 wrote:


On Ukon, It's not the best DD weapon in the game. It's just wielded by the job with the best tools in the game. Verethragna is the better weapon.


Gonna beg to differ and play with multiple 90 ver and ukons everyday. The biggest difference is H2H/1hand emps don't benefit as much as 2hand emps from the ODD. WAR does require more support but once they have it they pwn everywhere. 5hit, 35+da, the strongest WS in the game are hard factors to compete with.
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#55 Jul 08 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Gonna beg to differ and play with multiple 90 ver and ukons everyday. The biggest difference is H2H/1hand emps don't benefit as much as 2hand emps from the ODD. WAR does require more support but once they have it they pwn everywhere. 5hit, 35+da, the strongest WS in the game are hard factors to compete with.


The main reason for that is that only the mainhand gets ODD, since offhands don't get the effect, but the Verethragna should be able to proc on both hands.

Even still, Ukon's DPS is 16.13, while Verethragna's is like ~28.67. Again, Victory Smite is actually stronger than Ukko's.

Ukko's Fury:
fTP: 2.0 (3.0)
WSC: STR60%

Victory Smite:
fTP: 2.25 (5.25, 6.25 if they didn't really fix hth offhand hit)
WSC: STR60%

The only reasons Ukko's seems stronger are Restraint, Blood Rage, and Crit Damage+ Trait/feet.


Ukon isn't the strongest weapon in the game, it's just the strongest weapon the strongest DD can use.
#56 Jul 08 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a ********* comparsion.
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#57 Jul 08 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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Yes they have higher base damage, but the high WSC and a massive fTP advantage makes VS the stronger WS, though not by as much as it would be if comparing similar Base Damages.

All I'm saying is if WAR had Martial Arts VII and A+ in hth and Gaxe, they'd be at their best with Verethragna.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 6:16pm by Return1
#58 Jul 08 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
[quote]
Ukon isn't the strongest weapon in the game, it's just the strongest weapon the strongest DD can use.


Yeah I'll roll with that. Just like Drakes and SP are beast on paper.

But at the end of the day a Ukon WAR is the top DD. Agreed its the weapon,the gear, the JAs, the traits and the ODD.
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#59 Jul 09 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a horsesh*t comparsion.


is that even still true? before they actually raised the level cap, i was hypothesizing that MNK would be pretty broken due to how h2h skill determines base damage. i admit i haven't really kept up on it, but i haven't heard of h2h skill tapering off or the equation changing, so...
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#60 Jul 09 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
Raelix wrote:
2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a horsesh*t comparsion.


is that even still true? before they actually raised the level cap, i was hypothesizing that MNK would be pretty broken due to how h2h skill determines base damage. i admit i haven't really kept up on it, but i haven't heard of h2h skill tapering off or the equation changing, so...


It doesn't taper off. MNK H2H is like rocking 2 70+damage axes. They still suffer from low fTP because rank is based off the weapon displayed damage.
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#61 Jul 09 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe it's something like 70+ Dmg blunt dagger cause their delay is like 300-350 for 2 swings (150-170 each) not counting haste.

War IS pretty broken atm not just because their weapon and such but because of retaliation. Most NMs attack really fast and it causes the War to retaliate those attacks and make the War gets TP so fast that you can pretty much skip the whole x-hit built, store TP and all other jazz and go straight for WS back-to-back. Even without Ukko, a War with Raging Rush can still throw out high damage WS compare to other DD.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 12:19pm by Oddwaffle
#62 Jul 09 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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It kinda shows the state DRK is in when a thread about DRKs on the DRK board slowly turns into which is better, MNK or WAR. :/
#63 Jul 09 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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DRK had always played 4th or 5th fiddle to other DDs, RR just put us even further down.

Before abyssea and the LR change, DRK was a WAR with a **** poor Berserk and Stun, wouldn't keep up with MNK, couldn't DD as well as SAM, and got plastered by DRG. Back in the day, DRK was nothing without Apoc.

And yes, Apoc is still amazingly powerful today, being the best weapon DRK can use.

#64 Jul 09 2011 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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drk sux
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#65 Jul 09 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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lol, i've nothing constructive to add here.
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#66 Jul 10 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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in other news...

were burning down some more apademaks today, haven't been on much in the last month, so i still had 40ish to do. i'm on nin, my wife's on her ver. mnk, we have a ukon war, a whm, my wife is 2boxing a whm mule, and have two blms for stun.

except one blm was brand new/burned to 90 and had no clue how to stun/what we were talking about even after we gave her really simple instructions on stun order and how important it was to do this right and NOT **** it up, and the other blm was, well, his usual self. after loosing/wiping twice, i said ***** this' and warped home, got on drk. problem solved.

tl,dr: people suck and are terrible at ff, even when they have all the mechanical advantage the game allows. you can still be useful on drk even if you're not the best tool for the job.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#67 Jul 11 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Stun is a **** of tool.......in the right hands.
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#68 Jul 11 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
New content outside Abyssea Apoc rapes both emps. (+71acc is huge outside) Ukon is the games best DD weapon in any zone any time. Its more dramatic inside abyssea but its still king outside. Redemption is garbage, SE needs to fix it, bad WS, bad delay. Its not better the cata in abyssea and outside quiteus hits harder then cata but the rest of redemption/drk fails it. Cala is pretty great (for DRK) in abyssea but DRK/DRKs gear hurt it on the newer stuff. I didn't realize just how much of an acc loss there was going from apoc to any other DRK weapon and keeping haste capped until I just mathed it out.


Kinda confused here. The Occ. 2x damage alone makes Redemption better than Apoc. The main draw of Apoc has always been the haste/drain....and haste has a cap which is far easier to hit than before.

Yes you could swap out a few pieces for more ACC/Attack/DA/whatever but not enough to offset the fact that Redemption will be doing 2x more damage about 30% of the time, with the same haste you have. Also I've never seen Catastrophe do anywhere near Quietus numbers, even after the update. I'm not saying you're lying, but I'd like to see what you consider typical Catastrophe damage if you have pics.

The drain effect is definitely still nice though.
#69 Jul 11 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
Kinda confused here. The Occ. 2x damage alone makes Redemption better than Apoc. The main draw of Apoc has always been the haste/drain....and haste has a cap which is far easier to hit than before.

Not really. ~16-20% more total damage from ODD does not offset having a substantially weaker and less useful WS, more difficult hitbuild, lack of the 'stack it all' option with Haste Aftermath (dunno if or why not to wear full +2 set with Apoc AM up), inferior base damage, and no free relic ODD procs, and 35 less +Acc when it matters.

Empy ODD is NOT double damage 40% of the time. It's double damage 40% of <50% of the time, because it's only on TP phase. ODD is laughably overrated much of the time, though a nice bonus. ****, the +35 Acc alone on Apoc beats ODD if being utilized.

Protip: Catastrophe is bumped to a 4.0 fTP with lv90 version. This could be incorrect, it could be just the +25% I've seen most elsewhere, but even the latter puts it on par with Quietus at worst. Stop while you're ahead.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:14pm by Raelix
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#70 Jul 11 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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not often you see this, but ^
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#71 Jul 11 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:
Not really. ~16-20% more total damage from ODD does not offset having a substantially weaker and less useful WS, more difficult hitbuild, lack of the 'stack it all' option with Haste Aftermath (dunno if or why not to wear full +2 set with Apoc AM up), inferior base damage, and no free relic ODD procs, and 35 less +Acc when it matters.

Empy ODD is NOT double damage 40% of the time. It's double damage 40% of <50% of the time, because it's only on TP phase. ODD is laughably overrated much of the time, though a nice bonus.

Protip: Catastrophe is bumped to a 4.0 fTP with lv90 version. Stop while you're ahead.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:09pm by Raelix


That's all fine and well but this is literally the only place I've heard saying Apoc is a decent weapon, let alone better than Empyreans. In game, on any other board, BG, where ever. Also like I said, I've never personally see Catastrophe do anywhere near the damage of Quietus.

And uh....doing 2x more damage is laughably over rated? Again, this is the type of comment I only see on this board.

And for the record the WS numbers listed for 90 Apoc are less than my Penitence +2 with Quietus. Also there is some confusion as to it having a 4.0 fTP considering BG came up with different numbers:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=6&mid=1295978001321128345&howmany=50

Ironically some of the people arguing with me in this thread were saying the exact same thing I am, in that thread.



Edited, Jul 11th 2011 9:33pm by Hexagram
#72 Jul 11 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Another additional wtf at "+35 ACC beats Occ. 2x damage". ACC has a cap. It's not hard to hit without the +ACC on a relic. I have no idea what you're fighting that would warrant that much more ACC, to the point it would offset Occ. 2x damage.
#73 Jul 11 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram needs to just go back and read everything carefully at this point.

Getting double damage on a portion of a portion of your damage means the total output is really low. It's about like how Crit Attack Bonus was an insignificant buff for DRK since it's only a portion, crits, of a portion, TP phase with no crit WS, of our damage.

Remember the other thread where I postulated that adding +25 accuracy to just barely reach accuracy cap is ~16% more total damage and ODD comes out to about 16% more damage? That. In the very same thread we showed that the +35 accuracy was definitely in effect on Voidwatch NMs.

You need to be much more careful around me. I'm one of those rare people that actually knows what the f*ck they're talking about, rather than one of these parrot-along feebs in 'other forums', and even though I'll foam at the mouth over something I state to be just an opinion in the end when it comes to cold facts, theorycraft, and napkin math I hit like a freight train. ODD is a bit of a sick joke in terms of what people think it does versus what it actually comes out to, especially for dual-wielding jobs. It is the ultimate BNS trap.

I'm not saying ODD is a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it is in no way making a sh*t weapon like Redemption beat out a vastly buffed 90 Apoc, especially if you're one of the dozens of Redemption DRKs I see still stuck at lv85 version.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:45pm by Raelix
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#74 Jul 11 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Hexagram needs to just go back and read everything carefully at this point.

Getting double damage on a portion of a portion of your damage means the total output is really low. It's about like how Crit Attack Bonus was an insignificant buff for DRK since it's only a portion, crits, of a portion, TP phase with no crit WS, of our damage.

Remember the other thread where I postulated that adding +25 accuracy to just barely reach accuracy cap is ~16% more total damage and ODD comes out to about 16% more damage? That. In the very same thread we showed that the +35 accuracy was definitely in effect on Voidwatch NMs.

You need to be much more careful around me. I'm one of those rare people that actually knows what the f*ck they're talking about, rather than one of these parrot-along feebs in 'other forums'. ODD is a bit of a sick joke in terms of what people think it does versus what it actually comes out to, especially for dual-wielding jobs. It is the ultimate BNS trap.


You don't know what you're talking about, actually. You rattled off the 4.0 fTP comment which was wrong, then had to edit what you said. ****, people told you that it was wrong in that thread 6 months ago and you still mentioned it again, today.

And you were proven wrong by BG....another forum. So no, sorry I can't dismiss what other forums say.

A portion of a portion? What are you even talking about? It's about 30%, 2x damage. Period. You WS, you get the Aftermath. Yes the Crit Damage buff for us was small because outside of certain Atmas inside Abyssea we don't crit often enough for it to mattter in the grand scheme of things....similar to WAR's +2 set bonus which is 2x damage on a DA proc. I'm not seeing how these relate to a flat 30% proc of 2x damage though.
#75 Jul 11 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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You heard it here folks. ODD can proc on WS, the other 60% of our damage!
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#76 Jul 11 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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And wtf at "Redemption is a sh*t weapon, Apoc is vastly buffed"....uh, what? At face value they're virtually the same weapon.

Apocalypse....
DMG: 140
Delay: 513
ACC+35

Redemption....
DMG: 136
Delay: 502
STR+10 MND+10

Outside of the slight difference in delay I'm not seeing a game-breaking difference between the two. 4 base damage vs a free 10 STR? Additional Effect: Blind? What is it?
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