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Merits? Where to spendFollow

#1 Jun 05 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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This is what I'm thinking for dark merits, would like some input on what others think or have done.

Group 1
5/5 last resort effect
5/5 last resort recast

Group 2
5/5 desperate blows
then I'm not sure here on the last one. I was leaning towards muted soul or maybe dividing up for muted and diabolic eye.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
#2 Jun 05 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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4/5 Diabolic Eye
1/5 Dark Seal

I use Dark Seal just enough to justify one merit in the ability. I find muted soul useless. The trait doesn't effect the initial hate spike and I typically have dread spikes up when I use souleater, so taking hate is something I want to do.
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#3 Jun 05 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I only ever use Diabolic Eye when I'm swinging some gimp sh*t like Club for Red proc. 1/5 is probably as much as you'll ever need it, because 4/5 still isn't often enough to matter or preclude using an up/down set.

1/5 Dark Seal is handy for the same reason.

Muted Soul gets a huge debatefest. I 3/5'd it for lack of want of the other options. Stalwart Soul makes Souleater far more worthwhile and effective, and dropping a fat Souleater but capping hate that much more slowly can be nice for damage output if you've been sitting around waiting for yellow proc while the tank capped hate.

As for Group 1's, it depends what endgame weapon you're using. Keep your 5/5 Last Resort Effect merits if you plan on using Caladbolg/NQ. I'd recommend 5/5 Souleater recast over LR Effect (keep LR recast, natch) if you're going to use Scythe, again because of Stalwart Soul and Guillotine still being our staple multihit.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 6:33pm by Raelix
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#4 Jun 06 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you both for the reply's the info helps. I am not sure what I plan to use as a main weapon. As far as end game weapons go I have a twilight waiting for me and will work on getting a woe as well. For great sword I have the 386 delay great sword and going to try and pick up a jingang greatsword. At this time I don't have any plans to work on any of the trial options since I am currently working on emp katana, evasion katana, and a -pdt sword.

This could change if I can manage to bring out dark more for events, but that is probably not going to happen since I'm normally blue or nin for events.
#5 Jun 08 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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5/5 LR recast
5/5 SE recast

5/5 DB
5/5 DE you'll want the acc on new content.

I have an Apoc and currently have 5/5 DS but on some of the upper tier VWNMs im not capping acc so Im changing to DE as well.
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#6 Jun 09 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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What gear are you tping in with your Apoc?

Merit-wise I have:

Group 1
5/5 LR Recast
5/5 SE Recast
Group 2
5/5 DB
5/5 DE

I have Apoc, but I was convinced coming content would require more ACC, so I kept my DE merits.
#7 Jun 21 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I went

5/5 LR Recast duh
5/5 LR Effect (turns it into Berserk basically)

5/5 DB duh
5/5 Dark Seal (nothing else better)

I used to be 5/5 DE but then abyssea has made acc not worth a ****, plus the -HP effect is annoying when your riding SE. I might change it back to 5/5 DE if acc becomes an issue in the newer content.

As for the reason behind 5/5 LR effect, turns out monsters over level 80 have annoyingly high defense. Inside abyssea we have super atma's and cruor buffs to offset this, outside we're not so lucky. You really want 800 or more attack to get near ratio cap and with LR now 3min effect it makes sense to max it out. Also outside abyssea riding SE isn't nearly as useful, your HP is lower and the mages don't have as much MP to keep you topped off. I dualbox a WHM and even then its **** difficult to get the most out of SE.

But that's my personal choice, YMMV.
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#8 Jun 21 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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As much as I would promote planning ahead for the great return of DRK in post-Abyssea, merits are so easy to get now I think most of us could stay optimized for Abyssea for now. DE and LR effect can and will be useful, but it's not hard to switch when the time comes.

Did I already cover LR effect for Torc and SE recast for Quietus/Guillo in this thread? I'm on my phone...
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#9 Jun 30 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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I changed my merits up recently.

5/5 lr recast
5/5 desperate blows
Ofcourse

5/5 SE recast since the update SE is very spammable and really helps on the harder mobs. I have Apoc which makes SE even more potent. DRK is also an easy job to cap attack.

5/5 diabolic eye. With the new update even with perfect gear like I have the acc boost is still needed on upper tier mobs. I used to think DE was useless (was at 75) but now its a huge asset. Just like muted soul used to be a solid trait back in the zerg days but now its 100% useless.
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#10 Jun 30 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
5/5 diabolic eye. With the new update even with perfect gear like I have the acc boost is still needed on upper tier mobs. I used to think DE was useless (was at 75) but now its a huge asset. Just like muted soul used to be a solid trait back in the zerg days but now its 100% useless.

Yeah I'm due for a shuffling if just to burn merits I can't spend otherwise. You're following what I mentioned earlier about Souleater recast having more value for Scythe while Torc wants/needs LR effect so badly.

I got the impression last time I used it that Diabolic eye only reduces your HP based on your normal amount anyway, so using it in Abyssea isn't as crazy detrimental (-450hp? nothx, but -220 is okay).

I still ask in what situation you're gonna need Diabolic Eye back as soon as possible, implying an application (fight, or series of fights still requiring that Acc) longer than three minutes, but I haven't even tried Voidwatch yet.

I think the issue is more to do with recent gearing options and styles. We're running 20-40 less accuracy on our main gear than we used to be, especially with your 'perfect' gear (Hoard ring, Ace's Leggings, Ace's Hose if you dare, Calmecac Trousers, no acc on Bale or Askar bodies). Offsetting that only 3/5ths of the time isn't solving the problem. SE caught on that -Acc on the best Haste/Multihit/StoreTP gear was a good way to make us start needing to adapt to different fights, so unless you're planning DE up/down sets you've still got a problem for two minutes at a time.

I'm not saying it's less beneficial than Muted Soul, but with the slow harkening back to tanked fights even Muted Soul is back to looking juicy again to me (I pondered dropping it for tanking). Just having Diabolic Eye, one point, gives you 90% of it's usefulness for one-shot usage.

You may also want to consider going back to Pizza. It gives more than twice as much accuracy as Diabolic Eye with a still hefty Attack portion (which new gearing has far more of).

We DRKs have simply forgotten that Accuracy was important once, but Diabolic Eye was never the first step.

Edited, Jun 30th 2011 4:39pm by Raelix
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#11 Jun 30 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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The issue is why use pizza when I can use RCB and merit DE. I don't DRK in Abyssea where DE would never be needed, but its really nice in Dynamis and VW where DRK does pretty well.

The biggest issue is muted soul doesn't add anything. The other option is Dark seal which has limited use but being capped or closer to capped ACC 3 out of 5min.

My 5hit tp set for harder mobs is

Apoc/rose//whitetath
Bale/bale/bale/brutal
armadaberk(stp5da2)/bale/raja/hoard
tactical/goading/jingang/aces

Pretty acc friendly and im not capped on acc.
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#12 Jun 30 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
The issue is why use pizza when I can use RCB and merit DE.

Because Pizza gives twice as much accuracy as DE, full time, and at least some portion of RCB's attack boost.

If accuracy is ever a problem, you'll be wanting a lot of it. A lot more than just +20 with no percentage based food interaction. If your accuracy is down around 80% or lower (about as low as it has to be to be eyeballable) your accuracy will still be **** with DE up.

Meanwhile you're riding Last Resort. Something has to have a lot of defense to need RCB, and those things don't tend to be too evasive unless SE decided to be a **** that dev day.

As always: Hitting is more important than hitting hard.
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#13 Jul 01 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Get out of Abyssea for a minute, do a t4 VW their def is very very high. Its much better to swap gear around then to go from RcB to pizza. With Apoc +35acc Im parsing between 86 and 92 acc on t4s, capping with DE. 95% of DRKs will probably need pizza and DE to cap. Its also useful further into the new dynamis zones.

Again muted soul is useless, dark seal is situational and DE can be used just about everywhere. Even if you DRK in abyssea you can use it for procing. Would WAR give up agressor?
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#14 Jul 01 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
Even if you DRK in abyssea you can use it for procing.

I do actually.

Right now I don't put too much hard decisionmaking into merits because I'm expecting sh*t to start changing again, like you've noted about VW. As it is my merit selection is based more on 'I get most of the utility out of these things with one point (DE/DS), and this thing does what it does fairly well with just partial merits (3/5 MS).

I do like looking ahead at Voidwatch if I ever do it and knowing my accuracy requirement.
TaintCerberus wrote:

Apoc/rose//whitetath
Bale/bale/bale/brutal
armadaberk(stp5da2)/bale/raja/hoard
tactical/goading/jingang/aces

+65 Acc on gear (Apoc is half of this)
+18 DEX
+7 Scythe Skill (384 with full merits, 389 if you had Abyssal, which is probably the first thing for you to swap)

Gonna use my own base DEX.
200+(0.9*184)+0.75(89+18)+65
165.6
80.25

445.85 before gear. 450.35 with Abyssal.
With your miss values we need 6-18 more accuracy, so 451-463 acc desired (so these things are still less evasive than a Mamool THF)

Apoc RCB and DE: 465-470 acc.
Apoc Marinara Pizza: 490-495 acc.

So I suppose it works for you, however:

Non-Apoc: 410-415 before food.

Nonapoc RCB and DE: 430-435, still sh*t as I said (~70%-75% hitrate)
Nonapoc Marinara Pizza: 451-456, right on the money.

Pizza, *****!

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 2:10pm by Raelix
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#15 Jul 02 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Our disagreement starts with how useless. -50 (-30) emn is worth for a DD in any situation let alone for only 1min.

DRK isn't a bad job to pull hate on and sometimes a good one. Before Abyssea it was a premier tank.

Old school KC,RC zerg DRK muted soul was very worthwhile but the game has changed drastically.

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#16 Jul 02 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Default
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Muted Soul is pretty ***.

DE gives you a sizeable ACC bonus for 3 minutes every 5 minutes, which is nice when fighting things where Accuracy matters. It also allows for more ATK/WSC/fSTR stacking for WSes outside of abyssea.

Abyssea is over. VW has come and next update will get better rewards. Dynamis has been revamped with high level mobs. Limbus and Salvage will eventually see similar tweaks. There's 9 more levels of delicious NOTABYSSEA to play through. This means people will need to relearn how to dress themselves sooner or later. Just because, currently, other people are reluctant to do new events doesn't mean there aren't reasons for us to gear for them.
#17 Jul 02 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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abyssea's hardly over, some of us are still spitting out empyreans and gearing our 4th or 5th jobs! **** i have to gear blu now that i've finished almace.../RAGE...have half of the +1's done already at least.
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#18 Jul 02 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
Old school KC,RC zerg DRK muted soul was very worthwhile but the game has changed drastically.

I swing my OA2-4 when I'm planning to drop a serious Souleater. Usually I drop High Jump first to bump myself way down from capped hate. Muted Soul does what it does in that case.

Other DRKs don't get that free heal from Catastrophe, indeed an Apoc DRK was a premier tank. A DRK/SAM who knew how to use it was also decent tank. Most others thought 'DRK? Tank? I guess I'm /NIN' and never take hate.

Plenty of reasons you wouldn't pay heed to. Muted Soul is less useless to me than a shorter Diabolic Eye timer I never ride. If ever I think 'sh*t, I could really use Diabolic Eye but it wore off 90 seconds ago' I might consider meriting it down, but at best I'm gonna get a 7:30 recast because Dark Seal is for my opening Drain IIs (and is another timer I would never ride if I capped merits). If a fight goes eight minutes and I'm working into my second Diabolic Eye, something else is wrong.

But these are just my personal playstyle reasons. I already detailed how Diabolic Eye is the last solution DRK should look to for accuracy issues.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 2:09pm by Raelix
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#19 Jul 02 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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i'd rather get my enmity loss from pulling aggro and getting punched in the face with dreadspikes up, but i guess it's down to playstyle. if muted soul were a flat -enm all the time it'd be a different story.
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#20 Jul 02 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
abyssea's hardly over, some of us are still spitting out empyreans and gearing our 4th or 5th jobs! **** i have to gear blu now that i've finished almace.../RAGE...have half of the +1's done already at least.

I'm still cranking on +2s for DRK and finally got my NQ feet for COR and immediately +1'd.

I like how bored with Abyssea the Apoc DRKs in here seem. I guess when you get everything handed to you it could be a little dull.

Return1 wrote:
This means people will need to relearn how to dress themselves sooner or later. Just because, currently, other people are reluctant to do new events doesn't mean there aren't reasons for us to gear for them.

Then I guess they start learning today!

Pizza vs. RCB in more direct terms:

20% hitrate vs 100 attack

100 attack = ~13% more damage

20% hitrate = 26% more weaponskills (ed. and if swinging Guillo, ~20.1% more damage per WS, for about 51% more WS damage, and still even a little extra with other WS because you still have to land DA/TA procs from Atheling, Calmecac, Brutal...) and 26% more melee damage. All told about 41% more damage after TP:WS split if you're still rocking Guillotine.

[/DE+RCB discussion]

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 2:46pm by Raelix
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#21 Jul 02 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Double because the new layout moved everything around.


I think the short version, Finuve, is "You have an Apoc, you do not speak for all of us. Do whatever you like, but don't ever insinuate that non-Apoc DRKs are doing it wrong or I will find you."

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 2:26pm by Raelix
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#22 Jul 02 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Then I guess they start learning today!

Pizza vs. RCB in more direct terms:

20% hitrate vs 100 attack

100 attack = ~13% more damage

20% hitrate = 26% more weaponskills (ed. and if swinging Guillo, ~20.1% more damage per WS, for about 51% more WS damage, and still even a little extra with other WS because you still have to land DA/TA procs from Atheling, Calmecac, Brutal...) and 26% more melee damage. All told about 41% more damage after TP:WS split if you're still rocking Guillotine.

[/DE+RCB discussion]


Essentially, you're pulling numbers from your ***.

You're assuming you get a full 20% bonus from pizza.

You're assuming the attack is only a ~13% boost to ratio. It's a fine estimate, but when dealing with things like this, more concrete numbers are better.

You're fallaciously attributing a ~13% boost to ratio as a ~13% boost to damage, which is true on anything EM (90) or lower, but when you bring level corrections for say a mob 10 levels over you, that number is too low.

You're assuming you're gaining the whole 40 ACC on WSes, because I guess you don't macro gear?

You're failing to consider ACC and pDIF bonuses on WSes.




It's not just boredom with abyssea. It's literally nothing else to do there. 5/5 AF3 on all my jobs, got accessories, nifty pieces of gear, and getting the empy weapons I want.

When I say Abyssea is done, I mean that it's over. There will be no new abyssea content. All new gear and stories and camps and battles that come out from now on will be outside of abyssea. It's done.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 6:16pm by Return1
#23 Jul 02 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Return1 wrote:
You're assuming you get a full 20% bonus from pizza.

Do try to pay attention so you don't look like an inconsequential nag next time.
Raelix wrote:
+65 Acc on gear (Apoc is half of this)
+18 DEX
+7 Scythe Skill (384 with full merits, 389 if you had Abyssal, which is probably the first thing for you to swap)

Gonna use my own base DEX.
200+(0.9*184)+0.75(89+18)+65
165.6
80.25

445.85 before gear. 450.35 with Abyssal.
With your miss values we need 6-18 more accuracy, so 451-463 acc desired (so these things are still less evasive than a Mamool THF)

Apoc RCB and DE: 465-470 acc.
Apoc Marinara Pizza: 490-495 acc.

So I suppose it works for you, however:

Non-Apoc: 410-415 before food.

Nonapoc RCB and DE: 430-435, still sh*t as I said (~70%-75% hitrate)
Nonapoc Marinara Pizza: 451-456, right on the money.

Pizza, *****!



Return1 wrote:
You're assuming the attack is only a ~13% boost to ratio.

You're fallaciously attributing a ~13% boost to ratio as a ~13% boost to damage, which is true on anything EM (90) or lower, but when you bring level corrections for say a mob 10 levels over you, that number is too low.

Oh dear! I actually f*cked that up, hold on:

Let's go with 400 defense, 800 attack to simplify the math. On EM or lower, 100 attack is a 12.5% increase. Now let's throw 9 levels of correction at it, so 1.8 / 1.55 = 16.1% more damage. Edit: Oops, hit cap, so it's actually only 12.9%. How about 600 defense? 1.05 / 0.883 = 18% increase on a very extreme mob. Still nowhere even near the same greater metropolitan area as the benefit of accuracy from pizza.

Return1 wrote:
You're assuming you're gaining the whole 40 ACC on WSes, because I guess you don't macro gear?

As already postulated, non-Apoc DRKs need every bit of Acc they can get, especially if swinging a low hitbuild and needing certain pieces in for WS. Apoc/Quietus/Torcleaver DRKs aren't known for having incredible amounts of accuracy on their WS sets so my further annotation about DA/TA procs is even more valid.

Return1 wrote:
You're failing to consider ACC and pDIF bonuses on WSes.

No I didn't. That's why the damage increase from improved accuracy on Guillotine was only 20.1% instead of 26% and I gave a point about accuracy on WS helping secondary DA and TA procs land. Torcleaver has no Ratio bonus and you personally disavow Quietus' Ratio bonus at every opportunity so what does that matter?

Congratulations! You've succeeded in being entirely confrontational and contradictory without making a single valid point whatsoever or even making the bare minimum attempt to back your claims. If you'd even considered the latter you wouldn't have spouted such garbage.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 3:57pm by Raelix
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#24 Jul 02 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh dear! I actually f*cked that up, hold on:

Let's go with 400 defense, 800 attack to simplify the math. On EM or lower, 100 attack is a 12.5% increase. Now let's throw 9 levels of correction at it, so 1.8 / 1.55 = 16.1% more damage. Edit: Oops, hit cap, so it's actually only 12.9%. How about 600 defense? 1.05 / 0.883 = 18% increase on a very extreme mob. Still nowhere even near the same greater metropolitan area as the benefit of accuracy from pizza.


Well, seeing as all the older God/HNM class mobs were about 13-20 levels over us, 9 levels is a lowbie guess. We already know VWNMs can be High evasion and defense. They're probably in the 13-20 levels above us range as well, we're just unable to confirm it since we can /check or use the exp calculations of old.

If we went with 400 defense, and a mob 13 levels above us for this example, the difference between the 800rcb and the 700pizza would be ~22.7%. I'm pretty sure higher level VW mobs would have higher defense than 400 as well.

Quote:
As already postulated, non-Apoc DRKs need every bit of Acc they can get, especially if swinging a low hitbuild and needing certain pieces in for WS. Apoc/Quietus/Torcleaver DRKs aren't known for having incredible amounts of accuracy on their WS sets so my further annotation about DA/TA procs is even more valid.



You can easily get +100acc in gear for multihit WSes without Apocalypse. Also, we're using the arguement for validation od DE 5/5, well you can figure in ACC from DE as an average hit% boost over a period of time.

For any single hit WSes, the ACC does absolutely nothing, barring extra swings. Even then, the benefit of then cRatio boost from the heavier ATK on the First hit and any extra swings that land, will do more than making occasional extra swings land more often.

#25 Jul 02 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure, pick at as many little things you can and tweak the numbers to make your idea look less retarded. DE+RCB still fails to give a larger benefit than Pizza alone even on a level 104 mob. Jormungand is level 95. Level 99 was a decent guess for the current top end NMs except that players will be getting there eventually. Stretch that out as far as you like, maybe SE will make level 140 NMs and you'll be right!

But here's the funny part: you ****** the math in your favor because no self-respecting DRK is gonna have just 650 attack with Last Resort up and no food. Against a mob with 400 defense any decent DRK is gonna slam into Ratio cap even with just Pizza. If you argue 'Last Resort goes down for one minute out of four!' I'm gonna kick you in the face and point at Diabolic Eye being down even more often than that.

At any rate a 20% accuracy increase is 26% more damage across the board, not just TP phase, because you land 26% more melee hits for 26% more WSing per bunch of swings, so it's 26% even if your f*cking WS accuracy is capped. Just wanted to make that clear to you. Additional damage per WS because of increased WS accuracy is just gravy, but still you **** up this idea that everyone WSes in an accuracy set which says nothing to the benefit of Torcleaver (You've heard of this thing right? It's kinda popular...) and Quietus. 26% more damage from 20% accuracy increase is a minimum, and the lower your starting accuracy on potentially stronger mobs, the more the benefit balloons even faster than Attack.

But your own argument about swapping for WS turns against you, because no DRK less retarded than yourself is gonna be WSing in the same amount of Attack as their TP set, particularly Torc and Quietus DRKs, so they easily slam into Ratio cap with RCB and lose much of the benefit for 60% of their damage, especially with Torc DRKs and many others rocking LR Effect merits.

Yours is the way of the E-Peen, the BNS *****. That's all RCB is for: E-Peen (Like it's predecessor and main ingredient, 'look how much money I can blow on food!') amd BNS'ing. It's fun to use on trash mobs, but mob Evasion is growing just as rapidly as their Attack.`

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 9:09pm by Raelix
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#26 Jul 02 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Default
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Sure, pick at as many little things you can and tweak the numbers to make your idea look less retarded. DE+RCB still fails to give a larger benefit Pizza alone even on a level 104 mob. Jormungand is level 95. Level 99 was a decent guess for the current top end NMs except that players will be getting there eventually. Stretch that out as far as you like, maybe SE will make level 140 NMs and you'll be right!


We're currently in a transition phase, so no **** the mobs designed for now will be easier later on when we hit 99. Right now there are mobs that fit the bill of having over 400 defense and having a sizeable level correction. Also, when we're getting new content and HNMs for the 99 cap, I can assure you we'll get lovely level 112-120 mobs to fight.

Jorm was a 95 HNM designed for the 75 cap. You're ******* stupid if you don't think they'll make higher level NMs for 99 cap. You're ******* stupid for bringing Jorm into the discussion to make your point.

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But here's the funny part: you ****** the math in your favor because no self-respecting DRK is gonna have just 650 attack with Last Resort up and no food. Against a mob with 400 defense any decent DRK is gonna slam into Ratio cap even with just Pizza. If you argue 'Last Resort goes down for one minute out of four!' I'm gonna kick you in the face and point at Diabolic Eye being down even more often than that.


I ****** my math? You're the ****** that pulled the numbers from his ***. I just used them to show you're wrong.

It doesn't matter anyway though because all you do is napkin math omitting other facts you dislike to make your point. If I wanted I could napkin math WHM into the game's strongest DD.

Quote:
At any rate a 20% accuracy increase is 26% more damage across the board, not just TP phase, because you land 26% more melee hits for 26% more WSing per bunch of swings, so it's 26% even if your f*cking WS accuracy is capped. Just wanted to make that clear to you. Additional damage per WS because of increased WS accuracy is just gravy, but still you **** up this idea that everyone WSes in an accuracy set which says nothing to the benefit of Torcleaver (You've heard of this thing right? It's kinda popular...) and Quietus. 26% more damage from 20% accuracy increase is a minimum, and the lower your starting accuracy on potentially stronger mobs, the more the benefit balloons even faster than Attack.


WRONG AGAIN!

20% more accuracy isn't 26% more damage, it's 26% more hits/WSes. Each hit or WS would be weaker, making the value less than you've stated.

Not only that, but you've been doing this whole argument to depreciate the value of DE, but you haven't even figured it into that 20% you ******* tool.


Also, I love how you're trying to make the argument move towards fighting streams of **** weak mobs, whereas I'm aiming my use of DE towards higher NM mobs you would find in VW battlefields, especially since VW is being expanded with EVEN STRONGER mobs. You think VW mobs are going to have the same DEF and level as ***** *** abyssea mobs? No. Of course you wouldn't know, as you couldn't tell your head from your *** when it comes to VW.
#27 Jul 02 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Return1 wrote:
20% more accuracy isn't 26% more damage, it's 26% more hits/WSes. Each hit or WS would be weaker, making the value less than you've stated.

God. ****. You're retarded. It's 26% from baseline versus <20% from baseline. You can't get it through your thick f*cking skull that Twenty-six is greater than twenty or less.

It's 126x 100 damage hits versus 100x 118 damage hits and 25x 1000 damage WS versus 20x 1180 damage WS. Want me to show you how to use a calculator? I figured you passed third grade but you're making me wonder.

You f*cking ignore that the accuracy value I'm using is based on Finuve's allegedly parsed data from a ******* Voidwatch mob. Meanwhile you make up hypothetical level 104 mobs and say I'm the one pulling numbers out of my ***?

You're f*cking pathetic, you know that? Do whatever you like to win an argument on the internet, I don't have to do ****-all to prove you wrong at this point. You're doing everything possible to make yourself look like you were right and I can't stop you making sh*t up and spouting garbage in the process. Just stop already. You've lost, you don't even have to admit to it. Just go away.

I'm ashamed to have to explain concepts to an Apoc DRK that were established in motherf*cking 2004.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 10:28pm by Raelix
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#28 Jul 02 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Play nice people, or do some of you need to take a short vacation?

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#29 Jul 03 2011 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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Oh leave them be, Kao, it's funny.
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#30 Jul 03 2011 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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God. ****. You're retarded. It's 26% from baseline versus <20% from baseline. You can't get it through your thick f*cking skull that Twenty-six is greater than twenty or less.


From baseline yes, you're right, and if that's what we're talking about then it's true. I rushed while posting as I was busy. That says nothing of your presentation though. We had been talking about RCB and pizza, the pizza would given the same accuracy bonus in either and since you're a chronic napkin-mather I hastily assumed you were "improper graphing" so to speak, so forgive me for not picking up on it sooner.

Quote:
You f*cking ignore that the accuracy value I'm using is based on Finuve's allegedly parsed data from a ******* Voidwatch mob. Meanwhile you make up hypothetical level 104 mobs and say I'm the one pulling numbers out of my ***?


I didn't ignore ****. I'm saying that there are situations where an averaged 28 ACC over time, is less of a bonus than 100 ATK, arguing for DE merits over merits over MS or DS, which was one of the major points of this thread, not your obsession with ******* pizza. This situation happens to occur in some Current VW battles and updated dynamis mobs, and will definitely happen in more events to come. We know for a fact we will have more, powerful HNM type mobs from VW this next update, and SE won't leave the game without HNMs at 99, validating the use of the DE merits. It's not theorycrafting, it's common sense.

And which admin was kao again?
#31 Jul 03 2011 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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My concern was that people would use Diabolic Eye as a major source of Accuracy. It plainly isn't, especially when only up 3/5ths of the time. It should never be a first choice or be majorly considered as part of a 'build'.

Where do you get 28acc? Did you apply DE's '3/5ths of the time' hobbling to the 40+ accuracy you get from Pizza?

My statement is simple: Accuracy has always been, and will always be, more important than Attack when both are uncapped; this is true even in vastly disparate values (40 accuracy vs 100 attack). Diabolic Eye isn't enough for Voidwatch mobs as shown here, plus that it generally sucks unless your fights are under three minutes (Is it more important to be hitting the mob at the start of the fight or when it's almost dead? See?). If Diabolic Eye could be up 100% of the time it would be incredible, but as it is you have to pop Souleater in the downtime to maintain the same accuracy and you still have a full minute of -10% hitrate.

It worked fine at Mamool and Bird camps where we had a known, tested, verified, mathable accuracy target and could build up/down sets if we wanted to be so neurotic. Are you gonna stop in the middle of every fight to check your parse and decide if you need to put DE up or not?

If you wanna be sure you're hitting something, though: Seriously... why **** around? Swallow your f*cking pride and eat some ******* pizza.

People cream their pants over 16% more total damage from Aftermath ODD on 2-hander Empyrean weapons. It takes just +25 accuracy to see a 16% damage increase from accuracy if it puts you at or close to cap. How's that for a little perspective?

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 2:32am by Raelix
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#32 Jul 03 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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My concern was that people would use Diabolic Eye as a major source of Accuracy. It plainly isn't, especially when only up 3/5ths of the time. It should never be a first choice or be majorly considered as part of a 'build'.


I would never suggest DE be used a s a major source of ACC. I would suggest it be used to for those situations where you can't cap acc, be it you're just a few acc away from cap, or a mob you can't hit for **** with sushi. I was also the guy with 3 different builds though for any types of mob I would face before I had Apoc, so I know ****'s situational.

Quote:
Where do you get 28acc? Did you apply DE's '3/5ths of the time' hobbling to the 40+ accuracy you get from Pizza?


Yes, I did.

Quote:
My statement is simple: Accuracy has always been, and will always be, more important than Attack when both are uncapped; this is true even in vastly disparate values (40 accuracy vs 100 attack).


When uncapped, ACC is more important by a large margin, but it's not always the answer. When you get high level, high defense mobs, adding more attack can be more important than capping acc. Old School Kirin's a perfect example. You ate meat at kirin, even when your hit rate was awful. His defense and level correction would floor a lot of job's or people's pDIF to 0 and if happened often. Getting more 0's didn't mean ****. Now sure it's an extreme example, but there are some mobs in the current game where say a 15% boost to accuracy isn't worth as much as 100 attack, and their numbers are growing in this next update.


Quote:
People cream their pants over 16% more total damage from Aftermath ODD on 2-hander Empyrean weapons. It takes just +25 accuracy to see a 16% damage increase from accuracy if it puts you at or close to cap. How's that for a little perspective?


That's wonderful, but what's so hard to get about there being situations where 100 attack is doing more than that 25 ACC?

I'm all for you swinging pizza when it is better. I'll stick to my RCB since I TP in 81ACC from gear minimum, not counting DEX+ or Skill+. There's also 10 ACC from the Hasso I fulltime. I could easily put in another 30acc without really trying.
#33 Jul 03 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Two words:

Dia II
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#34 Jul 03 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Dia III
#35 Jul 03 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, but never any excuse to not have Dia II at the very least because it comes with WHM or RDM sub.

More fun perspectiveism: Dia II on a 400 defense mob is equivalent to adding 85 or more attack for an average DRK. Dia III is equivalent to adding 130+ for the same DRK.

You just hate when napkin math makes your ideas look downright silly.
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#36 Jul 03 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Yeah, but never any excuse to not have Dia II at the very least because it comes with WHM or RDM sub.

More fun perspectiveism: Dia II on a 400 defense mob is equivalent to adding 85 or more attack for an average DRK. Dia III is equivalent to adding 130+ for the same DRK.

You just hate when napkin math makes your ideas look downright silly.


And thus you have demonstrated why I say every RDM should put two merits into Dia III. Two because I feel whatever it is you need to do, you should be able to do it in 60s, sometimes 30s just ain't long enough.

And guys, the new VW mobs have crazy defense vs what we're used to. Their basically an abyssea NM but minus all the abyssea buffs. If you want to get a feel for it, go fight Briarus, Mothra or Azdaja (just pulled three out my a$$) without anyone having any atma's or crour buffs. Would be fun except the drops are rare and mostly side grades, I hope to god this isn't "the new endgame". Hard fights are cool, but the loot must drop or otherwise it just becomes Salvage v2.

My last request is that people take context into account when doing napkin math. SE has made it plainly obvious the game isn't about which job can deal X damage faster then Y damage against a brick wall with infinite HP. Damage now is more about burst damage over a period of 60s then a period of resting and waiting as the next NM is poped / proced. I think it would be more useful to the community to know the comparisons of builds and methods over a short duration vs a marathon merit PT.

Ohh and for fun, stack Dia III with Agnon. 35% defense down is 53.84% attack bonus to everyone in the alliance, that NM is about to get raped.
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#37 Jul 03 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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don't bother trying to reason with these two. just sit back with popcorn. it's funner, and safer.
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#38 Jul 03 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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And guys, the new VW mobs have crazy defense vs what we're used to. Their basically an abyssea NM but minus all the abyssea buffs. If you want to get a feel for it, go fight Briarus, Mothra or Azdaja (just pulled three out my a$$) without anyone having any atma's or crour buffs. Would be fun except the drops are rare and mostly side grades, I hope to god this isn't "the new endgame". Hard fights are cool, but the loot must drop or otherwise it just becomes Salvage v2.


My point exactly. Without good buffs/debuffs my well geared Apoc DRK can have trouble getting out of the double digits on some of those mobs.

I'm guessing the gear will pick up, and once procs are streamlined, we'll see more drops.

Quote:
And thus you have demonstrated why I say every RDM should put two merits into Dia III. Two because I feel whatever it is you need to do, you should be able to do it in 60s, sometimes 30s just ain't long enough.


I had to boot RDMs from my shell because they refused to "waste merits" in Dia III. Because that last 2% slow is so important amirite? I hate RDMs without Dia3.

#39 Jul 04 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Return1 wrote:

And which admin was kao again?


The one with the ban button and the highest ban count of any of the administrative staff here by several thousand. Also known as the Senior Forum Administrator, or the "yes Kaolian, I'll stop doing that thing you told me not to do now because I don't want to get banned." admin.

Take your pick. And by all means, please, find out if I am bluffing. I'll give you a hint though.

I never, ever bluff about such things.

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#40 Jul 04 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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<3
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if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

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#41 Jul 05 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Even if you never had a reason to use DE it would still be more useful then muted soul, if not for the animation alone. DS could be argued for the italian DRKs but loldrk magic. I switched to a 6hit for harder mobs and its working good so far.

TP
Apoc/pole//firebomblet
af3/bale/abyssal/brutal
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Use RCB and save DE for the NMs = profit.
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#42 Jul 05 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like DS because it's kinda meh. If the mob is going to resist dark magic, it'll resist with or without DS. MS is kinda pointless as you'll cap hate retardedly fast even if you did waste 5/5 merits for 1 minute of half enmity generation every 5 minutes. Some people just take their opinions and themselves too seriously.
#43 Jul 05 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Love the double standard when we were just talking about non-Abyssea Voidwatch (Tanked) fights and Souleater being the thing that will push you to hate cap fastest anyway.

Still have to 5/5 DE for it to matter at all to go past 1/5, which means you're ***-out on Dark Seal (which lands Drain II on Absolute Virtue = more zerg output, same can probably be said of Voidwatch mobs) or you laughably take fewer merits in Desperate Blows. Not saying that you need Dark Seal, but it does have and will have applications.

Remember my phrasing: Partial merits are 'less useless' in Muted Soul than Diabolic Eye.

Some people think stealthy insults make their opinions more valid than others'.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 8:52pm by Raelix
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#44 Jul 05 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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DS isn't going to land Drain II on a dark resistant mob, especially since most resistant mobs have a -mdmg% towards the element as well as a crap ton of dark resist. It will land on high level mobs, but you can do that through gear right now without any downsides. You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE, but then you lose other stats as well, and the -HP% doesn't matter for the most part as long as you aren't using it with Souleater like a total ******.

5/5 MS just seems like a waste, DRK easily caps hate in abyssea, and outside DRK is probably there as Tank or a DD/Co-tank unless you use a whole alliance of people for some reason, but hey if you use a playstyle that involves flinging more people at fights then go for it.
#45 Jul 05 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Return1 wrote:
You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE

Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.

I'm just gonna go out on a pretty stable limb and say DE is garbage compared to any other accuracy source. You're either capped accuracy on something, or you should be eating Pizza or bringing better buffs. Ignoring that it's only up 60% of the time at best doesn't make it useful.

In any fight under three minutes going /DRG will serve you better, both in terms of more accuracy and Jumps, AND gives you better use of Souleater AND gives you an opportunity to put Muted Soul to work (High Jump).

Keep up the DE peen sucking, I'm just even more convinced it's worthless now. Your penchant for being a cookiecutter blowhard meathead must-max-out(-but-using-all-the-wrong-ideals) DD has trumped even my patience, and I just found the 'Ignore' function and have decided to do the DRK forum a favor by using it.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 9:10pm by Raelix
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#46 Jul 05 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.
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#47 Jul 05 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.


You still make a tradeoff. You're trading attack for the accuracy.

Quote:
I'm just gonna go out on a pretty stable limb and say DE is garbage compared to any other accuracy source. You're either capped accuracy on something, or you should be eating Pizza or bringing better buffs. Ignoring that it's only up 60% of the time at best doesn't make it useful.


If you're at 85-94% Accuracy, DE is doing something for you, and pizza is a waste, period.

Quote:
In any fight under three minutes going /DRG will serve you better, both in terms of more accuracy and Jumps, AND gives you better use of Souleater AND gives you an opportunity to put Muted Soul to work (High Jump).


******* horrible advice. Godawful. Offensively, /SAM gives a 6hit, meditate, hasso, sekka, and Zanshin making up for some ACC. Defensively, /SAM also offers Seigan TE which can negate powerful tp moves or several attacks, even adding some damage with counters.

All you do is napkin math only considering what you want, and give out terrible advice.
#48 Jul 05 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.

Used to be fun, you know. Then recently no matter how hard I grill him on what a giant steaming pile of sh*t DE is he still clings to it like mommy's tit. "sh*t is situational" doesn't even apply because the situation to 5/5 it for doesn't even exist (Fight >5min, or a string of fights with <7min between fights, uncapped accuracy).

You don't enjoy this any more than I do. You advocated the up/down sets to make use of it back in ToAU and that was a good idea because the accuracy target was static, Dark Seal was unnecessary, and Muted Soul had no application whatsoever, and it was still questionably worth the merits for that 2% increase from putting Ares's Cuirass on.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:00pm by Raelix
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#49 Jul 06 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.


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#50 Jul 06 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
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if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
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#51 Jul 06 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
Return1 wrote:
You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE

Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.
Return1 wrote:
You still make a tradeoff. You're trading attack for the accuracy.
Everything else these two have argued about is just an extension of this.

Boils down to +40ish acc via pizza's flat 10% total acc boost vs RCB's 90-ish att advantage over pizza. Stalwart soul makes soul eater much more viable to use every chance you can, increasing the use of muted soul's -enmity on fresh mobs. Anything lasting long enough to use souleater more than once the merits probably won't help as much unless you got KO'd along the way. Though it'd be a different story if swinging a multi-hit weapon, actually on /drg for just this purpose, and want someone else to stay tanking the duration (can't imagine you'd not take hate during this though; is capped MS that strong an effect to prevent taking hate during that kind of souleater barrage?).

I'm still not used to the thought of spamming souleater; just got used to not using it much in the old days unfortunately. You obviously can now, and with the most evasive mobs not really flooring your acc quite yet, pizza is a pretty easy option to use to help maintain x-hit builds and haste gear. The lost att from not using RCB really isn't that big a deal due to how much att drk gets normally (I can't imagine you'd be att floored on anything).
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