Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

How much ACC for VB?Follow

#1 Jul 10 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
*
97 posts
So with 275 sword skill base @ 75 PLD (or 280 w/ Supp. Earring) just how much ACC (or ACC+ DEX) is needed to land all of the hits for Vorpal Blade on 330+ eva mobs like Greater Colibri? I haven't seen a parser that will let me figure it all out and as much as I like math, I'm not good with FF-Math. I'm still 75 PLD atm and trying to put together a good DD set, I know which pieces are needed and what good ones are, I'm just trying to figure out how much I need and then see where I can swap out different pieces. Thanks in advance!
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#2 Jul 11 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
407 acc is the cap on 82 G.Colibris and 398 is the cap for 81. So gear for that. Both birds are around even in amounts at the camps iirc.

G.Colibri has an evasion of 339. For a character of 75 having the same accuracy(339) you would have a 75% hit rate. However since you are 7 levels of a difference, you are penalized 4 accuracy per level difference. Thus, 28acc in total is a 14% penalty to your 75%. The new % would be (75-14=61) 61% when your accuracy is even with the evasion(339). So at 61% to reach 95% you need to increase your accuracy by 34%. For every 2 points of accuracy your hit % increase by 1% therefore you need 68(34*2=68) more accuracy to cap(339+68 = 407) Hope that helps understand how we came to finding out the cap ;)

Now to figure out your accuracy, its easy(276 skill = 268, every skill after 200 is equal to .9 of accuracy)Since you are elvaan you will be around 59-60 dex so thats another 29-30 accuracy. This leaves your pld with a base accuracy of 297. 110 accuracy to make up. Remember food factors in after gear/JA/buffs so dont calulate your foods buff until after youve done the rest. Hope this helps.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#3 Jul 11 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
*
97 posts
Thanks alot :) but 110 ACC seems a little high, especially for WS's. Awhile ago I read that PUP needed about 80 acc from gear (might have been before food?) to land Stringing Pummel on the same colibri, and they only have a B+ in their weapon. Can anyone else confirm that it really is 110 ACC?
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#4 Jul 11 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
**
478 posts
That's the total with food. Running the numbers, it looks like ~64 acc from gear plus crab sushi will put you at around 95% hit rate.

From what I've heard from others on this board, though, capped acc isn't strictly necessary if it means sacrificing other beneficial stats for it. If I remember correctly, you're good with anything over 85% hit rate or so.

If that number is wrong, someone feel free to correct me.

Edited, Jul 11th 2010 4:52pm by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#5 Jul 11 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
*
97 posts
So, for 85% hit rate, about 55-ish from gear plus sushi? that's alot more reasonable, because I couldn't find any armor combo that gave me 110 haha
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#6 Jul 12 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Decent
**
478 posts
Each point of acc lost decreases hit rate by 0.5%, so to drop to an 85% hit rate you would be able to give up 20 acc total.

Keep in mind though that this is just a number that I think I remember hearing before, and I don't have any real validation for it. It may be that 90% is the magic number for Vorpal, in which case you would only be able to give up 10 acc total off of that original 407 for birds.

Edit: lack of sleep makes for odd word choices.
Edits 2-3: and erroneous numbers.

Edited, Jul 12th 2010 2:29am by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#7 Jul 12 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
Yopopoe wrote:
So, for 85% hit rate, about 55-ish from gear plus sushi? that's alot more reasonable, because I couldn't find any armor combo that gave me 110 haha


Im going to assume that your endgame gear is limited yes? If so let me provide you with a small set that you can tweak later on as you obtain more gear.

Ohat: 10acc
PCC/gorget: 10acc(pcc is dropping in price, can do with that til you get a gorget)
Supp earring: 4acc(you already have)
Hauby(+1): 14acc(15acc)
Woodsman/snipers(either one, pair this up with Rajas) Ring: 5acc
Potent belt : 8acc
Perle Legs : 10 acc

Total: 61 acc

For a total of 358, since its birds, you want to spam cheap sushi, so use crab sushi. This will push you up to 404 accuracy. Easily capped with any dex/acc additional pieces you get like heca/ares.

If you dont engage in any activities like sky/limbus and things of that nature perhaps we can provided other alternatives.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#8 Jul 12 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
*
97 posts
I used to do alot of Limbus/other End game, but during that time my PLD was more of a /WAR onry tank, but now with the lv cap increase, its looking like I'm going the more DD route. I haven't done end game stuff in a long time, so yes, my access to alot of end game gear is limited. (Plus I'm waiting for 99 cap just for fear of wasting my time getting a hard drop that will be easily replaced). My set thus far consists of:

TP:
Weapon: Joy main hand/ Blau off hand (until I finish my Trial Sword)
Head: Wahl Turban/ Homam situationally
Body: Hauby(soon to be Perle)
Hands: Homam
Legs: going to be Perle as soon as I hit 78
Feet: Dusk/Perle
Back: Aesir Mantle
Neck: Chiv chain (Yes, I know, where's the PCC?)
Rings: Sniper's/Rajas
Earrings: Brutal/Supp/Diabolos's(situationally)
Waist: Augmented Fettle belt (EVA+4 haste +3 STR+1)/Swift belt
Ranged: Tiphia Sting

WS:
Weapon: Same (duh)
Head: Homam**
Body: Hauby/Perle
Hands: Alkyoneus's Bracelets(-DEX >< I know, so looking for something better that wont be replaced)
Legs: Perle
Feet: Amir Boots
Back: Amemet +1
Neck: Soil Gorget
Rings: Sniper's/Rajas
Earrings: Brutal/Supp/Diabolos's(situationally)
Waist: Potent/Virtuoso Belt
Ranged: Tiphia Sting

**(The reason I initially started the thread was because I had recently gotten a Anwig Salade for THF/COR/PUP with WS ACC+15 and never got an Ohat, so I wanted to see if there were any other viable options. I could get an Ohat, but again with all the new gear, I'm not looking to waste my time/gil on things that will be replaced. Maybe the new Kensho_Hachimaki: acc +12 sword skill +5 conserve TP+5 if i start to do VNMs.)


Edit: fixed wrong augment on the belt

Edited, Jul 12th 2010 2:21pm by Yopopoe
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#9 Jul 12 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
O. Hat still won't be replaced. Sure, you might not see anyone wear it from 78-99, but it would do wonders for your build compared to Homam head. It'll also be a lot easier to get as our levels increase. There are other R/E pieces that people camp just to have, even though they're outclassed at end game. O.Hat is definitely one of those pieces.

Having said that, I still need to get mine...
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#10 Jul 12 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
Question: Doesn't accuracy get compounded since it's calculated individually for every hit in the ws? So if you have 95% accuracy for a 4 hit ws you only have a 75% chance of landing all 4? I'm not a math wizard but I thought that's how it worked or something.
____________________________
DRG75/RDM75/PLD75


One to be born
from a dragon
hoisting the light
and the dark
arises high
up in the sky
to the still land.
Veiling the moon with the light of eternity
it brings another promise to mother Earth
with a bounty and mercy.
#11 Jul 12 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
Yes, that's basically correct.

To calculate your chances of landing all four hits, you simply raise the 95% to the fourth power (4 hits). This gives an 81.45% chance of landing all 4 hits at 95% accuracy. However - there's NO point in gearing for more than 95%. Since we can't get any higher than that, any additional accuracy becomes wasted.

Another thing to consider is that you may get more damage out of adding STR or DEX than accuracy. It's hard to point out the specifics (since it depends on a lot of things), but Accuracy is not the king for multi-hit WS's. It's important, yes, but over doing the accuracy will NOT increase the chance of landing all 4 hits.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#12 Jul 13 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
**
879 posts
Dracoth wrote:
Another thing to consider is that you may get more damage out of adding STR or DEX than accuracy. It's hard to point out the specifics (since it depends on a lot of things), but Accuracy is not the king for multi-hit WS's.


I disagree.

Acc is the king for multi-hit WSes. Until you hit 95% hit rate it is point by point the best return you can get.

It is possible for pure STR or pure DEX to beat acc in terms of return. But that means that either your fSTR is very negative, or that you have 50 dex. The first thing is possible to happen, but unlikely. The second isnt even possible.

In short: The only way for pure STR or pure DEX to beat acc is when your base damage is already very low, or when your acc is capped.

More important than STR or DEX though is atk. Especially for jobs that have lowish base attack ( THF and DNC ), atk usually gives better return on multi-hit WSes than secondary mods.

Thats why people say that for multi hit WSes, ACC>ATK>Secondaries.

There are exceptions, of course, because after all this is Final Fantasy, not WoW. But that is a pretty good guideline to follow.



____________________________
Khory

TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
#13 Jul 13 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
**
712 posts
Thekhory wrote:
Acc is the king for multi-hit WSes. Until you hit 95% hit rate it is point by point the best return you can get.

I disagree to a certain degree.

While the goal may be to cap out your accuracy for multi-hit ws as much as possible. You must also weigh out the gains you are dropping for it. You should be able to drop accuracy for a damage piece provided that the piece raises your average damage over the acc piece. What point is that reached is probably dependant on mob stats, ws stats, and your buffs + your acc %.


Obviously go for cap accuracy, but make sure you calculated any other pieces that might of made a bigger impacted. Everyone is always "cap acc before anything else" without realizing how ppl gear solely based on that and not ponder at other gear pieces that dont have acc but might of made a bigger impact. Even if said pieces are obviously the logical thing to choose, ppl will be reminded of "cap acc only" and skip a piece that would of been better over all.

Best thing to tell ppl is, cap your accuracy without lowering your average damage.

____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#14 Jul 13 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,107 posts
Just gauge each potential increase against the compounded accuracy lost: (hit rate)^(number of hits)-(new hit rate)^(number of hits) = change in likelihood of landing all hits

95% accuracy = 0.95^4 = 81.5% likelihood of landing all four hits
94% accuracy = 0.94^4 = 78.1%
93% = 74.8%
92% = 71.6%
91% = 68.6%
90% = 65.6%
85% = 52.2%
80% = 41.0%

To simplify it, you're basically getting a triple return on hit rate, that is for every 2 points of accuracy you add (2acc=1% HR) you're increasing the likelihood of landing all hits by 3% (which will always max at 81.5%). Note that this is for higher accuracy values and accuracy changes depreciate the lower your base, but the formula holds.

Of course, this doesn't directly translate to straight damage since it's only a chance that you will be connecting an additional hit, which for a non-DA'd Vorpal Blade is a ~25% increase in damage. If I can improve my hitrate by 10% (85%=>95%) it would be increasing the likelihood of landing all hits by ~30%, which if I was comparing this to say a STR ring I then need to compare to the fact that to the original likelihood of landing fewer hits at more damage.

A simple example is a maxed out hitrate build versus a hypothetically worthwhile crit build. If I could on average land 4/4 hits for Vorpal Blade with 0 critical hits it would still net me the same amount of damage as on average landing 3/4 hits but with 1 critical landing for double damage. Which would also be the same net damage as 2/4 hits that were both criticals. Or with a str/atk build where you landed 3/4 hits for 33% increased damage. Etc etc.

I am not commenting on the value of critical hit builds, just demonstrating that landing all 4 hits can very easily be compared to other attempts at maximizing your total damage. Most gear comparisons are going to be some accuracy versus some WSC mods, both in the single digit comparisons, so maybe Build A has you hitting 5% more frequently, but Build B has you hitting 4% harder or Build C has you critically 6% more often.

tl;dr accuracy is indeed great to strive for, just remember that it's only increasing the likelihood that you'll land another hit, which translates into a fraction multiplied by a fraction that is significantly lower than you would anticipate.

I have to run so maybe someone can provide a clearer example if necessary.
____________________________
80 Pup Brd, 75 War Rdm Drg Sam Mnk Pld Bst Thf Whm Nin Smn Blm Rng, 72 Drk, 63 Cor, 50 Blu, 40 Dnc Sch
#15 Jul 13 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
**
712 posts
Requim wrote:
95% accuracy = 0.95^4 = 81.5% likelihood of landing all four hits
94% accuracy = 0.94^4 = 78.1%
93% = 74.8%
92% = 71.6%
91% = 68.6%
90% = 65.6%
85% = 52.2%
80% = 41.0%

Thats not correct, you didnt calculate the first hit. First hit gets the accuracy bonus regardless if its a multihit or single hit.

93% = 76.4%
92% = 73.9%
91% = 71.5%
90% = 69.2%
85% = 58.3%
80% = 48.6%

So the increase from 85% to 95% is closer to 23%.

Edited, Jul 13th 2010 4:14pm by hitoseijuro
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#16 Jul 13 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,107 posts
I'm not entirely sure which weaponskills get how much accuracy so that is far hazier but assuming it were all awesome and stuff you could just default the first hit to 95% and then use your actual accuracy on the remaining three hits, and then you would account for the chance to DA on your first two hits at the same accuracy.
#17 Jul 13 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Unfortunately doing all your calculations implying that landing all 4 hits all the time is your goal is also wrong. With 95% accuracy you may only land all 4 hits 81.5% of the time, but also land 3 hits 17.1% of the time. And more generally, you will, on average, land 4 * .95 = 3.8 hits per weaponskill.

If you have 95% acc you'll average 3.8 hits per weaponskill (excluding DAs). If you have 90% acc you'll average 3.6 hits per weaponskill (except not really that, either, as you have to also figure in the acc boost on the first hit).

Since Vorpal has a 1.0 fTP, all hits can be treated equally in terms of damage. Average number of connected hits at various hit rates, and value of adding 1% hit rate (2 acc):

95% : 3.80 : 0.00%
94% : 3.77 : 0.80%
93% : 3.74 : 0.80%
92% : 3.71 : 0.81%
91% : 3.68 : 0.82%
90% : 3.65 : 0.82%
89% : 3.62 : 0.83%
88% : 3.59 : 0.84%
87% : 3.56 : 0.84%
86% : 3.53 : 0.85%
85% : 3.50 : 0.86%
84% : 3.47 : 0.86%
83% : 3.44 : 0.87%
82% : 3.41 : 0.88%
81% : 3.38 : 0.89%
80% : 3.35 : 0.90%


The value of the accuracy goes up (very) slightly as DA becomes a factor.

Going from 90% to 95% is a 4.1% increase. Going from 85% to 90% is a 4.3% increase.

Comparatively speaking, 4 str (for 1 fStr; ignoring the att) would raise your base weaponskill damage by 2 points -- once for the fStr, once for the WSC. That should increase your weaponskill damage by a bit over 3% (assuming Joyeuse). That's roughly the equivalent of +4% hit rate, or +8 accuracy. So you could make a rough estimate of 2 accuracy being about the equivalent of 1 str, though since the gains from str increase in larger steps (generally needing a full 4 str to see an increase), it's easy for a smaller bit of accuracy to overtake it for a bit.
#18 Jul 13 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
Thanks for taking the time to type that out. I've been swamped with work finals for one class and weekly exams/quizzes for the other take a lot more time than I thought they would - I'll be so glad when the first class is over!!!, so I haven't had time to reply yet.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#19 Jul 13 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
**
712 posts
Kine wrote:
Comparatively speaking, 4 str (for 1 fStr; ignoring the att) would raise your base weaponskill damage by 2 points -- once for the fStr, once for the WSC. That should increase your weaponskill damage by a bit over 3% (assuming Joyeuse). That's roughly the equivalent of +4% hit rate, or +8 accuracy. So you could make a rough estimate of 2 accuracy being about the equivalent of 1 str, though since the gains from str increase in larger steps (generally needing a full 4 str to see an increase), it's easy for a smaller bit of accuracy to overtake it for a bit.

/nod pretty much why I was saying that while capping accuracy is important, we shouldnt skip out on other potential pieces of gear that could raise our damage average higher than the acc would.

For instance, I would assume that fstr not being capped, Heca head would do more for you than ohat would unless you were at a very poor acc level(say 50-60%acc where ohat would be better?)
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#20 Jul 17 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
What Kin said, that "you have to cap acc before anything else for fear of missing a hit" logic is complete ******** that needs to die.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Jul 17 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
***
2,236 posts
Quote:
For instance, I would assume that fstr not being capped, Heca head would do more for you than ohat would unless you were at a very poor acc level(say 50-60%acc where ohat would be better?)


Hecatomb Cap gives you 5 dex, which is at least 2 accuracy. Therefore the str:acc comparison with OHat would be 11 str vs 8 accuracy. But we already saw above that 8 accuracy is roughly the same as 4 str at moderately high hit rates, so Heca Cap is significantly better than OHat. Heca should win even at 50% hit rate. You'd need to be around 40% hit rate for OHat to start winning (and even then, favorable rounding could still put Heca ahead).

#22 Jul 22 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
Please remember that fSTR and WSC face decreasing returns the more you stack. +4 STR (+2D) is worth more to a D35 Joytoy when your dSTR=12 then when it equals 20.

dSTR = 12 = ((12 +4)/4) = +4 fSTR
79 STR = 19.6 WSC
35 + 4 + 19 = 58

Adding 4 STR

dSTR = 16 = ((16 +4)/4) = +5 fSTR
83 STR = 20.6 WSC
35 + 5 + 20 = 60

60/58 = 1.034, or +4STR = 3.4% vs a 67 VIT target.

A solid WS setup can reach 100 STR while maintaining ACC

dSTR = 33 = ((33 +4)/4) = +9 fSTR
100 STR = 24.9 WSC
35 + 9 + 24 = 68

dSTR = 37 = ((37 +4/4) = +10 fSTR
104 STR = 25.8 WSC
35 + 10 + 25 = 70

70/68 = 1.029, so now 4 STR difference is only 2.9% vs the above 3.4%.

STR is good when you can get it in large chunks or for free with another stat. For Vorpal on PLD I would instead argue attack would be worth more in general then STR but each piece is situational.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 12 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (12)