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#1 Dec 21 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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For those who have decided to use Atonement, as a hate tool, not a DD tool. I've begun using my Pld for more End Game mobs, Khimaira, Dark Ixion, Sand Worm, Fafhogg, T4 ZNM's, Sea/Sky etc. I've been more drawn to the DD Pld style, using Atonement Spam as a main source of hate. I'm just curious, for those of you who have also found this playstyle to be effective, how many of you have parse results, not for total damage, but simply for Accuracy results, to ensure that you are connecting hits as often as possible, to maximize the amount of Atonements. Which food was used, how much +acc gear is needed, and what Hit percentages where you at. I'm just looking for some insight as to what goals to have in mind for maximizing the use of atonement as a hate tool. At what point can sushi be overcome by Pizza, and if meat could ever come into play.

While I understand 'DDPld' is a sore subject for some, I'd rather not have that discussion. I'm just looking for results, good and bad for those who have at least attempted it, on mobs that matter, not just tanking in Exp, or small missions.

Thanks.
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#2 Dec 21 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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I've been meaning to parse my pld acc % on higher level mobs(not exp), but at the time I never had a parser, now that I do Ill try to if I get a chance. Though ith as to be taken with a certain % of error, as youll be swapping gear constantly so theres a given % of acc that will be dropped from time to time.

As far as Atonement goes, I wouldnt consider it a hate tool as much as a DD tool. Dont get me wrong, it sure helps speed your climb to the enmity caps. However, being able to deal a reasonable good amount of damage 350-750 on pld is very nice especially when low manning things. Being able to help bring down a mob faster is probably the biggest perk to Atonement for me. When you have great tanks rdm/nin/pld around, having the ability to use atonement might be the deal breaker in deciding which to use.


As far as food, sushi+1/Pizza+1 seem to do the job, I doubt meat will ever be in the equation, as the best possible pld setup(acc wise) w/o gimping your haste, wouldnt even cap your acc at bird camp.(379-384 acc[407camp])

Ill see if I can provide a parse though, along with my gear acc/food etc. Though I usually cut my filters when I tank, ill see what I can do.
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#3 Dec 21 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have definitely been pursuing this form of tanking since late last year. Recent parses against Omega put me at about 65-70% accuracy with sushi or pizza. The pizza in my experience yields far fewer hits for zero (which is functionally the same as a miss in terms of TP and enmity generation) and in my opinion is the far better option.

I am really enjoying this new school of tanking, and Atonement is a real beast of a weaponskill because it doesn't require a badass gearset to do its damage. You have the luxury of throwing on a full enmity gearset to weaponskill in, which makes Atonement's potency self-perpetuating. Enmity generates bigger Atonement generates higher enmity generates bigger Atonement, ad infinitum (with respect to the hard damage cap of 750, of course).

Even against Ultima (who takes half magic damage), Atonement setups far outperform any traditional method of tanking. The only times Atonement setups tend to fail are the following situations:

1) The NM is always immune to magic damage.
2) The NM has mean TP attacks, so you don't want to feed TP too fast. In this situation, though, you are probably more likely to want a smartly-geared Atonement Paladin to continue meleeing for TP and take other DDs off the NM temporarily.
3) Kited fights.
4) Whatever situation I didn't think of that may merit consideration that someone else will hopefully point out.

I would like to pose a question to anyone who does use this style of tanking: Haubergeon (+1) versus Homam Corazza; Which will squeeze out more damage? Will Haub's lack of hp and -20 evasion ever prove such a detriment that the defensive qualities of Homam would always edge out any advantage Haub has?

I used Homam for a while, but have recently been using Haubergeon (I will be investing in a +1 at some point) since my evasion rate seems unaffected (as I would suspect). The big losses are the minor accuracy gain, HP, and MP (I'm Galka) offered, but I think the loss is probably worth it even for the NQ Hauby.

I also used Homam Zucchetto for a bit for the accuracy over Walahra, but since I usually have both Haste and at least one March on top of 18% haste gear, I believe the extra 2% haste from the turban totally blows away the accuracy benefits of homam.

Here is what I currently wear for my Atonement TP build. Upgrades include Haubergeon +1, Simba Buckler, Fortitude Torque (PCC or Ancient), Lightning Bow +1, Toreador's Ring, Cuchulain's Mantle, and Velocious Belt.
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#4 Dec 21 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I would like to pose a question to anyone who does use this style of tanking: Haubergeon (+1) versus Homam Corazza; Which will squeeze out more damage? Will Haub's lack of hp and -20 evasion ever prove such a detriment that the defensive qualities of Homam would always edge out any advantage Haub has?


Well, Haubergeon actually in the long run puts out almost the exact same damage as Homam when you take into consideration Weaponskills. Since you know that Atonement in best case will always do 750 damage, Haubergeon will slightly edge out Homam in terms of overall damage done. Haubergeon +1 will add 1-1.5% parsed accuracy, so should beat Homam by even more.
#5 Dec 21 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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GuntarHolyflame wrote:
Being only a PLD66 myself... why simba buckler?
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#6 Dec 21 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Haubergeon also provides 5 Strength, improving fSTR and raising base damage by 1 75% of the time and 2 25% of the time. Thus, it'll hit for more than 0 more often than the Corazza, all else being equal. Similar to Sushi vs. Pizza, especially since the Hauby also has attack on it.

+HP and +MP are nice stats, but they don't matter enough to sway the decision in Homam's favor.

As for the Simba Buckler... I can only imagine it has something to do with the +HP/+MP on it and the faster block rate (more tp generation for Atonement?). I wouldn't choose it for a number of reasons (the enmity -2 stands out the most), so I can't speak for why he mentioned it.
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#7 Dec 21 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Haubergeon +1 will add 1-1.5% parsed accuracy, so should beat Homam by even more.

Hauby+1 offers the same amount of acc as Homam does, which is 15. Only on 2handers is it more. The only thing Hauby has over Homam would be the 6str/15att which would lower the 0 rate.
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#8 Dec 21 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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The -2 enmity on Simba Buckler apparently is a typo. It's actually +2 enmity.
#9 Dec 21 2009 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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~82% on Ultima, ~78% on Omega. (No Madrigal, Dorado Sushi)

I haven't parsed anything else, but I will now that I'm seeing more of an interest in actual data.
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#10 Dec 21 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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On anything big and defensive, Capping ACC isn't always the way to go. ACC is floored at a 20% hit rate. pDIF is floored at 0. Landing more hits means jack sh*t if a majority of them are for 0.

I personally recommend Pizza since it gives ACC/ATK, meaning more hits and less zeroes.
#11 Dec 22 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
GuntarHolyflame wrote:
Being only a PLD66 myself... why simba buckler?


Good question. Rilly said:

Rilly wrote:
The -2 enmity on Simba Buckler apparently is a typo. It's actually +2 enmity.


Which while this is true, that's not reason enough alone to use a Simba Buckler over a Koenig Shield or a Terror Shield, just a small perk.

This shield is going to shine for two subjobs: NIN and RDM. I use a NIN sub on 95% of the things I do on PLD. When my shadows are up, it doesn't matter how often my shield blocks or how much damage it reduces because my shadows worry about hits I take. When multi-attacks, TP attacks, or spells strip my shadows before timers are ready, my primary concern is getting them back up. Even with all the Fast Cast available to a Paladin, Utsusemi: Ichi is a slow spell to cast.

My answer to this is using the smallest shield I can to get the highest natural block rate I can. As you can see in my previous post, I have the Gold Buckler as my current PLD/NIN shield of choice. This is because it is a size 1 shield, granting it the highest natural block rate. I have been using this shield since mid-summer and against such enemies as sky gods, sea gods, Limbus bosses, and KSNMs, I have grown accustomed to its reliability.

Swapping in a supplemental shield skill gear set, with Reprisal up more than half the time, I can far more reliably block incoming attacks (and TP attacks), so Shield Mastery does the work of making sure my Utsusemi: Ichi cast isn't interrupted.

I made this change about the time I realized that whenever my shadows are down (not every Paladin always has double bards, a fully enfeebled mob, and a phalanx of stunners at his disposal), my first thought is always "I must get my shadows back up," and never damage mitigation via shield block. In cases where shadows drop and my Ichi is interrupted, I am realistically looking at taking a second and third swing before I can get any shadows, whether Ichi or Ni, back up due to the post-casting compulsory wait time.

To further give fuel to the Simba Buckler fire, a quick glance over at wiki shows that the only PLD-equippable shields with more defense are the stage four and finished versions of the Aegis. Data in this thread indicate that shield defense is a static boost to the damage reduced on a shield block, closing the gap between a larger shield's damage reduction and the Simba Buckler (and this is also the main reason why /RDM or Phalanx II situations merit smaller shields with high defense as well).

The Koenig Shield, and other size 3 shields, came into vogue when PLD/WAR was still the big thing and testing indicated that between block rate and damage reduction, size 3 shields reliably reduced the most damage. At that time, most of us assumed that idling in +enmity gear helped maintain hate, long before our current model of enmity was theorized and thoroughly tested by Kaeko and Ashira of Odin (with the assistance of others). I encourage any 75 Paladin to pick up a smaller shield when using /NIN or /RDM and give it a try, but don't neglect your fast cast and shield skill gear!
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#12 Dec 22 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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To further build on Guntar's post. Another thing that gives the simba buckler a healthy advantage is something often overlooked, consistency. A koenig shield may reduce more damage overall on average, but the reduction comes more in spikes. Typically, when tanking big things, the tank doesn't drop from raw average damage over time. The tank dies either because some situation causes the sh*t to hit the fan, or large damage spikes occur. You're more likely to take a completely unblocked triple attack in a koenig shield than you are in a simba shield.
#13 Dec 22 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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GuntarHolyflame wrote:
a phalanx of stunners

icwatudidthar.

Also, if you just want a shield for the block rate, sipar has a ridiculously high block rate, though it barely lowers damage at all.
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#14 Dec 22 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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NCCoda wrote:
~82% on Ultima, ~78% on Omega. (No Madrigal, Dorado Sushi)

Need to know your gear, or at least your total accuracy(prior to food) for these percentages to be effectively apply to anyone else's Pld/acc build. Thank you.
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#15 Dec 22 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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MKD Augmented with 3Haste, 10ACC, 5Attack/Fort Torque/Brutal/Suppa
Hauby+1/Homam/Rajas/Ulth
Cuch Mantle/Swift Belt/Homam/Homam

8 Sword merits

I swap to Parade Gorget/Ares's Cuirass when I feel that I need more Refresh.
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#16 Dec 23 2009 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:
MKD Augmented with 3Haste, 10ACC, 5Attack/Fort Torque/Brutal/Suppa
Hauby+1/Homam/Rajas/Ulth
Cuch Mantle/Swift Belt/Homam/Homam


That would put your acc around 437(assuming with dorado sushi,as iirc you using that most) lets round that number of % from both of them to about 80%, and you'd need about 467 acc to cap out at them roughly.

Pizza+1 would drop you about 10%~12% hit rate from sushi, but would increase your att by 55. Which should seem effective on anything you hit more 0s than not. Esp on a pld, that with the gear meantioned above, is getting only 373 att from.


:note edit: Getting more parses on more mobs we tank, would help us determine which food is best at which camp, to better our efficiency. Chances are, its probably pizza+1.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 6:37am by hitoseijuro
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#17 Dec 23 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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hitoseijuro wrote:
NCCoda wrote:
MKD Augmented with 3Haste, 10ACC, 5Attack/Fort Torque/Brutal/Suppa
Hauby+1/Homam/Rajas/Ulth
Cuch Mantle/Swift Belt/Homam/Homam


That would put your acc around 437(assuming with dorado sushi,as iirc you using that most) lets round that number of % from both of them to about 80%, and you'd need about 467 acc to cap out at them roughly.

Pizza+1 would drop you about 10%~12% hit rate from sushi, but would increase your att by 55. Which should seem effective on anything you hit more 0s than not. Esp on a pld, that with the gear meantioned above, is getting only 373 att from.


:note edit: Getting more parses on more mobs we tank, would help us determine which food is best at which camp, to better our efficiency. Chances are, its probably pizza+1.


Probably so, I do notice hitting for 0s on Ultima a lot more than I'd like.
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#18 Dec 23 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:
Quote:
Haubergeon +1 will add 1-1.5% parsed accuracy, so should beat Homam by even more.

Hauby+1 offers the same amount of acc as Homam does, which is 15. Only on 2handers is it more. The only thing Hauby has over Homam would be the 6str/15att which would lower the 0 rate.


I was referring to Hauby +1 parsing 1-1.5% higher accuracy than Hauby. NQ Hauby will beat Homam in almost any parse, Hauby +1 will beat Homam by that much more.
#19 Dec 27 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Finally got another pld to come out with me, I dont like parsing and solo tanking, incase for some reason my pc shuts off >.>(its random like that).

Parsed Khim at 81.83% acc.

gear-
Haute
koenig shield
lam bow
Turban
Parade gorget
Brutal/ethereal
Hauby+1
Homam hands
Ulth/Rajas combo
Cuchu mantle
Swift
Homam pants
Homam feet
Food: Sushi
Only 3 sword merits on at this time.

This gives me 411.93 acc, and apparantly roughly the 81~82% acc on khim. I hit 207 times for 0 damage out of 807 landed hits.

I did about 20000~ish worth of damage in that fight tp/ws. Which is roughly a little more than 1/4 of the damage. The next time, ill test him with joytoy. I didnt this time as I only had 4 other ppl who had actual experience with khim, and the other 3 did not(AFAIK). Other damage there included atonement from other pld, x2 blm, 1 sch.

Any questions, let me know. Ill continue to do more whenever I can.

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#20 Dec 30 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Hito was there a brd or cor involved, did you get Madrigal or hunter's roll?
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#21 Dec 30 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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No cor, 1 brd x2 marches
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#22 Jan 01 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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Ok just got done with Cerberus. I used the same gear as I did above, except with cerb I used joytoy. So thats a cut in -7acc. I didnt use sushi this time, but used pizza. My total acc seems to have come out at 383.02 which by this parse put my acc at 65.29%. Which means with sushi it would of been around 75%. Meaning cerb is probably slighly more evasive than khim maybe? More test will tell.

I put around 30k worth of damage, 20k of that came from atonement. I had slow/slow II on it, but was solo tanking, with only 1 elegy available. So I was constantly casting ichi/ni, which put my damage on atonement at a miserable 550-650 maybe 700. 506 of my swings, hit for 0(43 being crits for 0). This was with str 92 and att of 407. Its hard to say exactly how many of those 0s where me vs cerb, rather than me vs his SS, as he loves to spam that.

250 fire resist seems to be the ticket, for GoHs, I had about 256 and I took 81 damage from it. I believe Kaeko also wrote that in his journal. Basically a fire set of 130-150 + w/e amount your whm bar can get you and your fine. When low manning with 1 or no stuns, having this available can be very useful on pld.

Take these tests with a small margin of error, I try to idle in my DD set as much as I possibly can. I got over 1k swings almost 2k out of this fight tonight.

Any questions, let me know. Hope this helps plds or perhaps inspire some to try out a DD approach w/e they can, even baby steps to adjust to it to see if its right for you.

If anyone is curious on other mobs, please feel free to list them, provided they are decent enough to want to do them.

Id still like to get done :
Ultima/Omega(just to reconfirm Nccoda's tests)
Sky mobs
Sea mobs(any in particular?)
ZNMs
Faf/nid(blind my be an issue)claiming is going to be a pain -_-


Party setup incase ppl wonder-
pld rdm brd whm smn blm
(+ 1whm 1rdm mule for w/e)
Brd played marches x2 for me, only damage was from myself and the smn. Bio III was added to help keep SS down.
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#23 Jan 04 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
GuntarHolyflame wrote:
a phalanx of stunners

icwatudidthar.

Also, if you just want a shield for the block rate, sipar has a ridiculously high block rate, though it barely lowers damage at all.


You know, I've heard all about the Sipar's supposed unusually high block rate and incredibly low physical damage reduction, but I've never seen tests indicating this might actually be the case, nor have I seen it in action personally. If it is true, I'd certainly be interested in obtaining one, but I'm skeptical. Can anyone help me out with this, a Sipar owner perhaps?
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#24 Jan 05 2010 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
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I have a Sipar but I only wear it on Bst, my shield skill is low, about ~140 and doing sky FoV etc it blocks against flamingoes and stuff more often than not. It must have a high rate as my skill is so low I would not really expect to block a lot at all.
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#25 Jan 05 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd love to see a verified block rate as well. If wiki is true and it really IS 98%, I could see this being very useful while /nin. Granted, it does nothing to very little for damage mitigation, but that's why we have shadows. Imagine never having your casting interupted? Or being able to pile on haste for ichi instead of shield+ gear? Sounds like a winner to me.
#26 Jan 05 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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SirCorleonis wrote:
I'd love to see a verified block rate as well. If wiki is true and it really IS 98%, I could see this being very useful while /nin. Granted, it does nothing to very little for damage mitigation, but that's why we have shadows. Imagine never having your casting interupted? Or being able to pile on haste for ichi instead of shield+ gear? Sounds like a winner to me.


Depends on the circumstances aswell. Lets say this shield does proc as often as it is claimed. I can see this shields usefulness anywhere, where you would have recast timers on ni/ichi fully down, and the mob having some kinda slow/elegy on. For me as an example, the only time I ever get hit by a mob is by AoE TP/ignore shadow TP move/after stun wipe shadows/ or intransition from ichi to ichi, where I have 1 shadow left and ichi is going, and the mob DAs. Idk why but those can become rather annoying at times, and has become my bane at times -_-

Now another example is I always try to save ni, so incase I have a TP move that wipes shadows or takes 2-3, I can get ni off fast, or slow/elegy wear I can pop that ni up asap. True casting ichi>ichi>ichi might slow my tp rate down, but provided that the mob is enfeebled well, I gather I reduce my overall damage having ni available anytime a TP move goes off. Now however, if this shield can proc like its said to, perhaps you could cast ni more often than not, increase TP rate, and ichi w/e you needed, since youd block the hit anyhow. This is just coming from a single tank perspective, having 2 tanks makes things easier not to have to worry about block rate much.

Imo though, anytime you find yourself with shadows down more often, size 3 shield would be better, Sipar(assuming the block rate) would just be good if you can keep your shadows up 70-90%% of the time and need some more ichi back up, for instance if you feel that you could keep your shadows up a majority of the time if you didnt get ichi interrupted as much(sipar time maybe??), vs your timers just not being up(this would be size3 time)



Edited, Jan 5th 2010 12:59pm by hitoseijuro
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#27 Jan 05 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:


Imo though, anytime you find yourself with shadows down more often, size 3 shield would be better, Sipar(assuming the block rate) would just be good if you can keep your shadows up 70-90%% of the time and need some more ichi back up, for instance if you feel that you could keep your shadows up a majority of the time if you didnt get ichi interrupted as much(sipar time maybe??), vs your timers just not being up(this would be size3 time)
Edited, Jan 5th 2010 12:59pm by hitoseijuro


I'm actually surprised that the PLD community didn't think of using the Sipar as "shadow insurance" sooner for tanking /NIN. I wish I had thought of it sooner, because I'm pretty sure that Sipar would go close to free lot. I think that the majority of the time as PLD/NIN we use our shield as a means of reducing interruptions, not so much for dmg negation. I just haven't thought about it like that until now. I can't count the number of times I've had Ni down and couldn't get Ichi back up due to interruptions.

I'm going to try and acquire a Sipar as soon as possible, because I'm sure it would be more useful than my Koenig on a number of HNMs. I agree that a size 3 shield will still be preferable for things that DA/TA or spam AOE moves a lot. I will probably get some funny looks from other PLDs, but I think we are on to something here.



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#28 Jan 09 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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Ive tried it out for a while on sub RDM in campaing. I was left underwhelmed. The % damage reduction it offers is terrible. It might be decent while on /NIN but it is definately not a 95% block rate.

I left the experiment thinking that the % block rate does not exist. Though this is just by observation, i am not going to say that i have any numbers to back it up. It very well may have an increased block rate. But, it is not a 20%ish, like the wiki suggests.

Keep in mind that this shield was designed to be decent under the very first shield system we had. You know, the one where it would almost never kick in, but when it did it acted like a parry, or evasion. Even then, people never used it, but it might have been considered to be rather decent if we knew what we do now ... back then.

At any rate, with the newest shield system, and reprisal, i do not think this shield will perform as well as you would be inclined to think it does on paper.
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#29 Jan 09 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I left the experiment thinking that the % block rate does not exist. Though this is just by observation, i am not going to say that i have any numbers to back it up. It very well may have an increased block rate. But, it is not a 20%ish, like the wiki suggests.


The problem is that without actual verified data, your observations could be way off. I would bet that the low damage negation would make it extremely hard to go off of the chat log to determine when a block occurred, which would mean that "eyeballing" it could be difficult. Sometimes even watching the animations of shield blocking can be a little deceiving.

Does anyone else have any experience playing with the Sipar?
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