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#1 Oct 01 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm main tank for my social shell's Limbus runs. I go as pld/war (I realize that /rdm or /drk would probably be better, but I don't have either yet). We don't have enough people to take on the proto bosses yet, so we just collect chips for the day that we will.

Up until now, I've been completely turtling up for it (and losing hate spectacularly). I'm going to start gearing for DD from now on, but that raises the question: Should I still be using def food, or switch to atk/acc? Some of the mobs seem to hit me relatively hard even while turtling, so would they hit me harder if I go for DD food? Or would it still be about the same? The new formulas still confuse me a little.
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#2 Oct 01 2009 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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If i'm on PLD i'm /NIN in full DD gear, Usually eat Pizza+1.
/NIN and you wont have to matter as much about how hard things hit you.

You have it at 37, start using it for everything except JOL, Dynamis and Campaign (and Some other NM's Solo/farming where /RDM Shines.)
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#3 Oct 01 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Would I be able to hold hate off the overpowered DDs in my alliance with /nin on such short fights, though? I was under the impression that /nin was better for longer fights.

Also, by full DD gear, do you mean dual swords? or would I still be using a shield?

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 5:31am by jAriusEightySix
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#4 Oct 01 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Good
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Against any DD that's trying to do damage and doesn't care if they're the tank, you're not gonna hold hate on normal mobs in Limbus under any circumstances. You could get one mob every 5 minutes or so if you spam your job abilities, but that's it.

What I do when I'm on PLD for Limbus is take my DD gear and my tanking gear. I use my DD gear for normal mobs, and switch to tanking for any sort of boss. I always eat either pizza or dorado sushi when I'm on PLD/NIN, even for HNMs like Proto fights, gods, etc.
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#5 Oct 01 2009 at 4:55 AM Rating: Decent
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That helps a lot, thanks!
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#6 Oct 01 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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The answer has been summed up pretty well. You won't be tanking normal mobs period. Pick and choose nasty mobs to spend your timers on, go DD. Pretend its Dynamis- DDs /assist you, you move to the next mob promptly. Flash it asap to get initial hate off the sleeper if its slept. Continue until you clear lol...
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#7 Oct 01 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Most (maybe all) limbus zones, except Omega/Ultima of course, are TP burn. You don't really need a tank. Like what others have said, focus on DD'ing, and less tanking.
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#8 Oct 01 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the input, guys. I'll stop trying to tank except on bosses. I'll just play main assist.

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:28pm by jAriusEightySix
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#9 Oct 01 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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On another note, I see that you're holding Omega/Ultima pop sets until you have more people. Those fights are pretty easy, and can be done with far less than a full alliance.

What kind of attendance/job distribution do you have? Just curious if you have a winning setup and could start doing those now. The less people you have go, the more Homam and Nashira everyone gets at a faster rate.
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#10 Oct 01 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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A lot of the members who come have a lot of RL demands on their time, so attendance is sort of a "Let's see who's here today and roll with it," deal. We usually have anywhere from 5 to 10 people show up, although we're working on getting Sea for more members.

As for job distribution, I'm the only tank until we start doing omega/ultima, and there's usually 2-3 DDs, a WHM, RDM, BLM, sometimes a SMN, and a COR.

Oh, and a lot of the members have various jobs they can switch around at need. So we usually have 2 blms for kings, or whatever setup we need to do the zone we're doing.

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:49pm by jAriusEightySix
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#11 Oct 01 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Foustian wrote:
Against any DD that's trying to do damage and doesn't care if they're the tank, you're not gonna hold hate on normal mobs in Limbus under any circumstances. You could get one mob every 5 minutes or so if you spam your job abilities, but that's it.

What I do when I'm on PLD for Limbus is take my DD gear and my tanking gear. I use my DD gear for normal mobs, and switch to tanking for any sort of boss. I always eat either pizza or dorado sushi when I'm on PLD/NIN, even for HNMs like Proto fights, gods, etc.


PLD/NIN makes a wonderful caller in Limbus. DD potential goes way up, mob comes off any puller you're using for whatever reasons (targeting only Tarutaru fomors, for instance), and you take far less damage.

Different mobs require different sets. Some of the bosses work just fine with PLD/NIN, others don't. Make sure you have a good job ability to spam when you engage the boss and use "Cure cheats" as well. PLD/NIN can max out VE in no time flat with Sentinel, flash, and cures.

As a general rule, I usually specify that if the mob is going to die in less than a minute, I'm PLD/NIN. If I'm going to be tanking for longer than 5 minutes, I'm PLD/NIN. If we're zerging, I'm PLD/NIN. Otherwise, I'm whatever I want to be.

Provoke is a strong tool, but it's at its best before level 37. Flash by and large replaces it as our primary tool and, at 75, it's very easy to ignore whatever small bonus Provoke would add to a fight.
#12 Oct 01 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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With your jobs, I might actually go SAM/Something.

Like others have said, Limbus is more of a Burn situation. Melee's should have their own damage mitigation, and you should cut things down as fast as possible.
#13 Oct 01 2009 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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jAriusEightySix wrote:
A lot of the members who come have a lot of RL demands on their time, so attendance is sort of a "Let's see who's here today and roll with it," deal. We usually have anywhere from 5 to 10 people show up, although we're working on getting Sea for more members.

As for job distribution, I'm the only tank until we start doing omega/ultima, and there's usually 2-3 DDs, a WHM, RDM, BLM, sometimes a SMN, and a COR.

Oh, and a lot of the members have various jobs they can switch around at need. So we usually have 2 blms for kings, or whatever setup we need to do the zone we're doing.


Totally understood, gotta work with what you got.

If you have enough job distribution to give your group 2 tanks (PLD/NIN or NIN/DRK, both work great), and a BRD, WHM, RDM for support. Toss in a couple BLMs with a Refresher, and a couple DDs if someone only has melee jobs and you shouldn't have a problem killing him.

Melee can do good damage on Omega, but I find BLMs to be safer, less MP spent curing since a dead DD can't do anything, whereas 2-3 BLM can nuke him down in plenty of time. Have one Stun-pull Pods and then everyone nuke them down fast, keep your DOTs stacked and Nuke away while keeping a Stun order. It's a very easy fight.

Just making the suggestion since he's really not too hard, you can always skip farming Pods until your group is comfortable with the fight, and farming Omega with as few as possible helps you all get your Homam much faster.
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#14 Oct 02 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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Foustian wrote:
I use my DD gear for normal mobs, and switch to tanking for any sort of boss.

Im a bit confused with this, can you please clarify this a bit more, what exactly would you switch out to? You can tank omega/ultima in the same gear you DD on pld/nin as. The only thing you could switch on would be a shield, and even then, you can dual wield tank omega, til 25% where after that I wouldnt want to chance getting countered up the ***.

DD gear and tanking gear all have a place, and that is in macros, you can dd while idle and swap to shield/damage reduction gear while your shadows are down. Shield gear isnt helping you one bit with shadows up, their AoEs are magic anyhow. HP gear isnt a priority as omega has no 1 shot move, Ultima does a count down for you to swap gear to avoid a 1 shot anyhow.


-edit- did you mean you dont carry any shield/damage taken gear in your inventory when you DD?

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 8:01am by hitoseijuro
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#15 Oct 03 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
I usually use carbonarra.

HP and att+ is always good and if you buy the stacks, it comes out cheaper overall.
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#16 Oct 03 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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I usually go /NIN and use Dorado Sushi or Carbonara, whatever is in my inventory. Sometimes I still have pizza active from merits, and that's cool too. I don't bother to get the Brown Magic quest to remove it.

Also, do you have Atonement? It makes it spectacularly easy to get/hold hate.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 11:43am by boywithoutaspoon
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#17 Oct 03 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Also, do you have Atonement? It makes it spectacularly easy to get/hold hate.


Depends on what you're fighting. I'm really sick of seeing PLDs use it in short fights or at the start of a fight where switching to DD gear and using vorpal blade would be much better.
#18 Oct 03 2009 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Klaire wrote:
Depends on what you're fighting. I'm really sick of seeing PLDs use it in short fights or at the start of a fight where switching to DD gear and using vorpal blade would be much better.

I can agree with that, but at the same time it depends on how the pld does it. You can basically cap out your Atonement in seconds from first engaging a mob. I would only recommend doing that on HNMs/NMs etc. Or if you dont need your JAs. On campaign type mobs I usually start off with a vorpal blade and then an Atonement if the mob is still alive. In dyna I just VB and atonement if its toward the end of the mobs HP and I can assure myself it will do more damage than VB.
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#19 Oct 03 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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So I went pld/nin in DD gear to limbus for the first time today, and I have to say... it was a nightmare. Mostly the cause was bad pulls(we had a newer smn puller who didn't know the ins and outs of temenos north quite yet), but at the end the DDs all said that they wanted me /war again so that I could have initial hate for at least a few more seconds. On the tougher mobs I was getting hate back near the end of the fight, but at the start of fights the mob would turn as soon as the DDs engaged.

Is this a valid concern? I know that I'm just supposed to be calling instead of actually tanking, but the DDs all think I should have hate at the beginning, so... I'm not sure what to do.

Thanks for any help.

Oh, and I don't have Atonement yet, but I'm about halfway through my Brave Blade latent, so it shouldn't be too much longer.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 9:22pm by jAriusEightySix
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#20 Oct 03 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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Are your DDs treating it like a TP burn? Are you getting swarmed by tons of mobs? Do you have sleepers to handle the bad pulls?

The initial hate spike from /WAR is NOT that much bigger than the hate spike you get from DD gear coupled with flash and self cures. The biggest thing you need to get is a good enmity set, a good haste set, and a good DD set. Chances are, you've got a lot of all of it, but you really do need to macro as many pieces as you can - it will make your life easier.

It's also an experience thing. You need practice. I'd suggest going to campaign and trying to learn the ins and outs of getting hate from the NQ mobs during battles. You'll learn a lot by doing that.

If you have sleepers, cast a cure on them, then use a "Cure Cheat" on yourself. Instant hate on every one of the mobs they slept. This way, when someone DOES wake up the mob, it'll take less effort to get the mobs to turn your way. Use your mp, use your tools, and eventually, you'll see things turn around.
#21 Oct 03 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
Are your DDs treating it like a TP burn? Are you getting swarmed by tons of mobs? Do you have sleepers to handle the bad pulls?


Well, the DDs are pumping out as much damage as they can, but most of them don't bring any way to mitigate damage, and would probably rebel if I asked them to sub nin or somthing.

This time we got swarmed, yes, and there was only one blm here today to handle sleeps. That was the biggest problem today.

Dracoth wrote:
The initial hate spike from /WAR is NOT that much bigger than the hate spike you get from DD gear coupled with flash and self cures. The biggest thing you need to get is a good enmity set, a good haste set, and a good DD set. Chances are, you've got a lot of all of it, but you really do need to macro as many pieces as you can - it will make your life easier.


I have all of these, and a 500-line SpellCast XML file that makes me blink almost continually XD. It didn't seem to help much.

Dracoth wrote:
It's also an experience thing. You need practice. I'd suggest going to campaign and trying to learn the ins and outs of getting hate from the NQ mobs during battles. You'll learn a lot by doing that.


Good idea, thanks. I'll do that.

Dracoth wrote:
If you have sleepers, cast a cure on them, then use a "Cure Cheat" on yourself. Instant hate on every one of the mobs they slept. This way, when someone DOES wake up the mob, it'll take less effort to get the mobs to turn your way. Use your mp, use your tools, and eventually, you'll see things turn around.


I have a cure cheat set up in that 500 line XML file I mentioned, but I kept forgetting to use it. Honestly, it's been so long since I've subbed nin that I was too busy trying to count shadows to remember to do much of anything else.
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#22 Oct 03 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Experience will fix the "having to remember to count" and "forgetting the cure cheat macro". Find any event you can do it in. Most mobs in limbus die so quickly, it feels like a glorified TP burn. I just wish we got XP for doing it.

As for damage mitigation... What do they do for merits? They shouldn't have to rely on /NIN if they don't want, but they need something.

WAR should be subbing /SAM or /NIN, anyway, depending on their setup. They also have retaliation.
MNK shouldn't sub /NIN unless they're just THAT uber, but they have counterstance if they need it. Anyone subbing /WAR CAN use Defender (shudder) if they absolutely have to.
THF shouldn't ever be pulling hate give their potential to drop a metric ******* of hate on someone else.
BST has snarl if/when they do pull hate. I've seen so few BSTs, though, that I'd be surprised to see one in any group (not that I'm against it... it's just a rare sight).
DRK may have some issues, but they have Dread Spikes and Drain.
DRG gets High Jump and Super Jump to pull down their hate a little. Their wyvern also does a good job at spreading damage without building hate.
SAM has SETE which should last just long enough on a typical mob.
NIN... you probably don't have NINs, but they can easily take care of themselves.
BLU should probably be subbing /NIN anyway for typical floors. /THF for bosses. They've also got some nifty tools to keep themselves alive.

Most other jobs are either very specific hybrids or are watching their hateline through other methods and don't usually compete for hate on the mobs (exception being slept mobs, of course).

Anyone who's performed in a typical merit party knows they need some form of damage mitigation. They'll have to learn - the reason they're pulling hate from you is because it's a TP burn fest with potential for huge linkage problems. /WAR is barely going to stop the problems if it even comes close to it.

Again, it's something your LS has to get used to. If you're not confident you can pull it off, by all means, go /WAR. It'll give you a slight edge, but they'll probably still complain about it. Maybe less, since you're doing what they asked, but it works out very similarly. In the mean time, get some more XP trying to play with PLD/NIN. Then, when you feel more comfortable with it, you can crack it out again and amaze everyone.
#23 Oct 04 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
So I went pld/nin in DD gear to limbus for the first time today, and I have to say... it was a nightmare. Mostly the cause was bad pulls(we had a newer smn puller who didn't know the ins and outs of temenos north quite yet), but at the end the DDs all said that they wanted me /war again so that I could have initial hate for at least a few more seconds. On the tougher mobs I was getting hate back near the end of the fight, but at the start of fights the mob would turn as soon as the DDs engaged.

Is this a valid concern? I know that I'm just supposed to be calling instead of actually tanking, but the DDs all think I should have hate at the beginning, so... I'm not sure what to do.


There is no reason for a pld to even be needed for any of the limbus areas outside of O/U. So for them to say for you to sub /war is not a very good sign. Anyone can tank in those zones to be honest. We usually have atleast 1 person come war, just coz they can use provoke for the mages or w/e but even on pld you can flash+curecheat(like Dracoth mentioned) and youd be set to pull it off them should a mob wake up. I do more than half of the tanking on drk/nin and the rest is tanked by the war or blms. Because they dont give a ratsass about the mobs and nuke to their content XD


Food: Omega: dorado Ultima: Dorado or HP if you need it to survive
other mobs, pizza +1 is nice

-note- what did your setup look like?

Edited, Oct 4th 2009 8:54am by hitoseijuro
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#24 Oct 04 2009 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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What everyone else said about normal non-U/O Limbus, really. Take this with a grain of salt though, as I have a bunch of 75 jobs and PLD isn't one of them. But there's one cardinal rule to remember about Limbus: Mobs hit HARD. Doesn't matter what job you're on. They hit HARD. Shadows are your best bet for reducing damage taken and DD gear is best for increasing damage output. It's really just a larger-scale merit PT and a race against the clock at that.

jAriusEightySix wrote:
So I went pld/nin in DD gear to limbus for the first time today, and I have to say... it was a nightmare. Mostly the cause was bad pulls(we had a newer smn puller who didn't know the ins and outs of temenos north quite yet), but at the end the DDs all said that they wanted me /war again so that I could have initial hate for at least a few more seconds. On the tougher mobs I was getting hate back near the end of the fight, but at the start of fights the mob would turn as soon as the DDs engaged.

Is this a valid concern? I know that I'm just supposed to be calling instead of actually tanking, but the DDs all think I should have hate at the beginning, so... I'm not sure what to do.


This I can't agree with! Not to sound harsh, but the DDs need to learn how to tank and take mitigation subs. Trust me, I hate /NIN on stuff like SAM as much as any person you'll find in the game but it's necessary here for low-man situations, much more than a merit PT where I wouldn't expect a SAM to /NIN in a million years unless they're a Hasso riding idiot. At this stage in the game, every DD is supposed to share tanking responsibilities, as they all have different ways to mitigate damage. The "initial hate" thing is really not valid (nothing against you at all, they're expecting you to do way more than you can as a tank). If you get hit twice with the amount of damage Limbus mobs put out, your hate is gone. Nothing you can do about it. Sometimes in lesser end-game situations like this, PLD isn't the only tank like they're expected to be in XP PTs 10-74, they're there as a support DD just like other DDs, only with extra abilities to protect their PT, like Flashes/Cures etc. Don't be too proud to lose hate - you have many different ways of helping a PT/alliance even without hate. I'm sure you know that many PLDs (and even most of these PLD's PT's) think that they need to keep hate 100% of the time and burn all of their MP on the first mob to keep hate. This is not the case. It's a team effort. Let that WAR take a bit of the enmity for a few seconds and soak up the dmg with Utsu while you get back on your feet. That's what they have Ustu/Third Eye for! Don't try to bear the weight of the PT on your shoulder's alone.

Here's a Temenos North rundown, as you said you had trouble with it:

First floor is RDM and WAR Moblins. Firstly, if this was where you had problems with links on pulls, your sleepers need to get into shape. The most you have to deal with in the first and second rooms is the two RDM Moblins. Sleep one and take the other, easy stuff. If the RDM decide to Chainspell enfeebles faster than your mages can handle, coupled with nukes, a PLD is dead without shadows. Same deal with the two WAR Moblins on the first floor - although easier than the RDMs, if you're expected to be the only tank through Mighty Strikes without shadows you're as good as dead, or your mage(s) are gonna be really hurting for MP by the end. Mighty Strikes+Goblin Rush is DEADLY without shadows to absorb a few hits.

For the second floor, my low-man group (usually 5-7 people) just take out Kari, the MNK Gigas and then move on to the next floor. The three Gigas in the middle, Beli (RNG), Thrym (WAR) and Skadi (BST) all automatically link and become a problem if you're low-manning. Especially Skadi, as he has a Charm ability which is not fun. They can be slept and SMN/BST pulled but it's usually not worth the trouble. Sleep Kari's Hundred Fists and have your DD turn around if it's a problem.

Third floor is Sahagin. You can try to sleep or run through the DRG and MNK as a PT and head straight for the WHM, as a group, although it takes timing. You'll most likely need to take out the DRG anyway, as it blocks your passage to the west and is a lot easier than the MNK. Here you might have to grab the other MNK, sleeping Hundred Fists as needed, then kill the BRD easily. You should have another chest by now and the gate opened. If not, take out the first MNK mob and go up.

Fourth floor looks intimidating, but it's not bad. Isolate both groups of BLMs, sleeping one while killing the other, they're squishy. One should open the door. If you want to go for a chest, take the group of three in the middle, Dynamis style.

Fifth floor is the easiest yet. Take out the Antica (we go counter-clockwise, but any order works) and head up.

The easiest way to do the Sixth Floor, if low-manning, is to run past the initial mobs when they have their back's turned and nab the Charmer in the NW section. After that, kill the wandering Abductor to the east, then preferably sleep the remaining Tonberries and head up.

The next and last floor is five goblins. Sleep and pull individually, kite, quick sac pull, whatever works for your group best. You should have a strategy formulated by now. Go with it!


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#25 Oct 04 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the suggestions.

We have a strategy that works most of the time, just today we had a newer smn be our puller, and he doesn't have much experience in Temenos North, so we got a few nasty links. We only had one blm, and I hadn't figured out the cure cheat spam to take hate off him yet, so it was kind of a mess. Wiped on the last floor with only the boss gobbie left XD.

But I'm going to talk to my shell leads about trying out this new strategy, and I'll let you know how it goes.
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#26 Feb 28 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow, uh, I completely forgot about this thread. Sorry for the necropost, but I figure I owe you guys a report on how this panned out.

My shell has insisted that I come /war from now on. They say that even a little initial hate is better than the mob bouncing around from the getgo. I suppose I can sort of see the logic behind this, mostly because there's at least one DD who does not and probably will never have a dmg mitigating sub. They just don't play enough any more to be able to lvl one; they pretty much show up for Limbus and that's their entire playtime.

I don't really appreciate having to make up for others' failings, but since the hammer has fallen, I've been looking for ways to maximize my hate output, and so far idling in DD gear while using tacos seems to do a reasonable job. I still have my massive equip swap macros for JA's / flash / anything else under the sun, and the mob seems to be on me for a good portion of the time, although not the entire time by any means.

Now I'm just waiting for someone to ask why I'm wearing a hauby when I "should be wearing tank gear." >.>
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