justice/joyFollow

I use Joytoy almost full-time, since it gives a high DA rate without using an ammo slot. It also has a higher calculated DPS than a Justice sword, at least according to Wiki.

Only time I'd use both is recapping XP, Joy/Justice (offhand Justice since Joy has a higher base damage for WSs), but I still don't have one since I've always passed the sword to all the other people who want one.

I use Joy/Justice in Limbus a lot. Not against the bosses, obviously.

Also, notice, Joy/Justice. Not Justice/Joy. Ever.

Due to an inability to show up when my LS does Sea (time schedules are killer), I rock Company/Joy in XP, Limbus, or Nyzul on anything except the bosses. Because my group is still getting a handle on certain mobs (flayers particularly), I usually Sword/Shield them, but I have a macro to switch back and forth quickly enough that it's just a matter of timing. Losing TP in those situations is worth it to me.

If I had a Justice, I'd use Joy/Justice everywhere I currently use Company/Joy. I.e., anything I'm not seriously tanking (gods and bosses for the events I do).

If you're picking between the two for sword/shield, Joy over Justice, imo. The extra damage will help a little more and you don't have to worry about keeping Virtue stones around (gaining the slot for, say, a Smart Grenade).

I think Justice has a slightly higher proc rate than joy? If so, then it would probably be the better option. But I just don't have to time to farm virtues to use for every single event.

Usually things like Limbus, Nyzul, Assaults, exp and the like are fine examples of where I use Joy/Justice.

Depending on what exactly it is, sometimes I will just /war and use Justice as it stacks with the double attack, and this makes it a very nice /war DD option.

Anything /dnc or whatever I just use Joyeuse as without double attack to stack, I don't notice an increase over joyeuse at all.

Wearing Corazza + Brutal may make it worth it but I usually go Eth/Suppa when i'm dnc and it's really a moot point then.

I don't know if this was mentioned with the replies, but Joyeuse is Piercing weapon. I do not have justice yet, but its nice to have both so you can swap off whether to use "slashing weapon or piercing weapon" as main hand for damage dealing. For PLD/NIN tanking same rules apply use the right weapon for the mob weakness.

This is not the case with Jailer weapons, you will never lose a stone during a weaponskill, meaning it does not work. Any double attacks during WS's are traits or in equipment that gives the trait.

Ah, wasn't sure on the WS, but it does stack with DA for normal hits, so as far as potential on a single weapon you're still better off with justice because 12 delay seems tiny when you get 10% more proc and stacks with DA/TA. So if you can get the stones you're probably better off with justice.

Also the fstr essentially makes them same base damage though right? So you get more proc and sometimes more base damage from justice, so you should see higher returns from using justice over joy while non-dw'ing. Bummer it can't proc on WS, so joy/justice, though imo justice > joy for single wielding.

Joyeuse doesn't stack with DA, so you're seeing less DA's proc than you otherwise would. Sure, you'll see a few more than if you weren't /WAR, but you're losing a lot.

And, for merits, you also lose out on shadows. The entire point to merit parties is that the DDs take as little hate as possible. /WAR doesn't help in that respect without also giving up DD, in which case, you won't have hate to begin with.

And, to Requiem: fstr will boost both of them at the same rate, until capped. PLD, although it has a high STR rating, is probably not going to cap either sword out (too lazy to run the numbers). I can see an argument for Justice in the slightly higher DA rate, but the base damage on Joyeuse will always be higher, thus leading to better WS's.

Duh. Should've realized that's what he was referring to. And, yeah, that will bring them about even excepting piercing bonus.

When single wielding, several pro joyeuse arguments have been made.

> Joyeuse has higher base damage, therefore it's better than justice:

A: Joy only has higher base damage if you're at capped fSTR; otherwise the 7 STR from justice sword gives you 1-2 base damage from fSTR meaning you can have *higher* base damage with Justice.

> DA has diminishing returns, so justice is not significantly better than joyeuse:

A: In the same number of attack rounds, even if both weapons are base 50% DA, since justice DA stacks with DA/TA, you'll generate significantly more hits with it. In 100 attack rounds, joy @50% base DA with brutal will generate about 152.5 attacks. Under the same conditions, justice will generate 155. If you're subbing war, it'll be 157.5 v. 165 (still using brutal). That's about 4.76% more damage from justice.

There are two valid arguments against justice.

1.) Joy has lower delay:

The delay difference 224 v. 236 will add up over time, and if you're at the same number of hits with each weapon, this would be an advantage for joy.

2.) Joy allows other items in ammo slot:

The 2 att/acc or 4 att from ranged will give ~1.25-2% more damage, depending, and may or may not negate the advantage from justice's extra DAs.

Appendix:
Just/Joy # hit builds: (assuming 1 hit WS; numbers adjust slightly w/ vorpy or any other multi-hit WS)
Joy: (#hits, store TP value, time between WS (dly*[interval-1])
17 0-4___3584
16 5-11__3360
15 12-19_3136
14 20-28_2912
13 29-39_2688
12 40-51_2464
11 52____2240
Just:
16 0-6___3540
15 7-14__3304
14 15-22_3068
13 23-33_2832
12 34-45_2596
11 46_58_2360
10 59____2124

If you have a lower hit build with justice, then it generates WS slightly faster than joy (it also still generates fewer base attack rounds).

TP where just reaches 100 in fewer hits: (given in red)

00 (no STP)
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45
46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60

One other thing to take into account. Are you using Vorpal Blade, Atonement or some other weapon skill?

I find Atonement makes a change in how I gear or what weapon I use between Justice and Joy.

Your math is correct, you'll note I said something along the lines of, "supposing just and joy had same base DA rate." I've never taken the time to calculate out the exact DA rates on them, and haven't seen the test where 45% was proven. So I've just been habitually skeptical.