I think we missed my point, in that the majority of your time spend in most events on pld, will be spent building hate through your MP.
This is why the refresh on Ares is so valuable. We need MP to build hate, having more lets us build more hate.
"Idle" time is so few and far between and it can fit a number of descriptions depending on what you're doing but during an actual fight it doesn't work.
Idle sets do work. A number of the Paladins here use them, myself included.
The majority of your hate is gained through Cures. We can all agree you can reach cap fairly quickly but holding and maintaining that cap takes effort, more than most would give credit for.
If you are casting non-stop you are burning thru your MP too quickly. While Tanking is a very active activity, you still have "idle" time.
I stepped out of end game but do monsters no longer do AoEs? Cast spells? Have shadow stripping TP moves? Am I missing something? Hate is easy to cap, but to claim once you're there your job is done is pretty silly.
Once your hate is capped, you have to do less to keep it there. This gives us more "idle" time. In addition, a 750 damage weapon skill is a hate spike that doesn't even cost MP. So maximizing my idle set helps me build more hate, and not only does it let me build more hate with less MP spent but it actually helps me recover my MP faster.
Macro'ing in Valor Surcoat for cures, flashes, job abilites, cover etc. What time does that actually leave you in the other situational pieces? (again, endgame, high-end fights only) Seriously think about this. My playstyle makes it so I am rarely just sitting there "swinging" or idiling, but hey, that's just me!
If you aren't swinging and are really constantly cure spamming, you are burning thru MP must faster than you need to be. Constant cure spamming is not sustainable from a MP perspective. If you are chain casting so much that you rarely swing your sword, you are going to run out of MP, if you aren't then you can benefit from maximizing your TP gain.
In short, you can argue that "it keeps me hitting for 0's" but let's be honest here; that seems to be a tried excuse that can be met by doing a very large number of other things. Cerb Mantle? maybe a ring slot? Fort Torque full-time perhaps? orr... Maybe finish those sword merits to begin with?
There is a ring with 24Atk 12 Str and refresh? or a neck piece? or a back piece? Ares body is incredible because it gives you all of that in ONE slot. two flame rings is only 10 Str, a cerb mantle is only 15 Atk, Parade gorget is only refresh, name the one piece of gear that offers me all of this in one slot and I'll go buy it.
I'll cede that Atonement has changed alot of equipment options and viability when it comes to hate holding. On that same note, it seems Ares loses even still, bringing 0 accuracy to the table, why this over a Haub (Still has attack and str), Homam, or even the best of the pick being Avalon? Accuracy, enmity and a bit of damage negation all rolled into one, seems to me a silly argument.
Atonement has dramaticly changed our gear options. I often eat sushi for the hugew boost to Acc, and I have enough acc in my other gear slots where the ares body's HUGE bonuses to atk and Str while giving me extra refresh is perferabel to any other body piece. Once again its the combination of all of these stats in one slot that make it an incredible piece. With sushi and my DD tanking kit, my Acc is around 90% on things like Cerberus and Khim. I don't use a Hauby +1 because the huge bonus to Str AND Atk AND Refresh are better then a just Acc in this slot.
The refresh on Ares body will result in better hate holding than a bit of enmity will. Even is situations where you aren't meleeing. Even if you remove the entire hitting for 0 and TP gain arguments, the refresh on it's own will end up generating more hate than a bit of enmity will over an extended fight.
Does Ares have it's situational use? For sure! Dynamis I could say it would be a wonderful piece, DDing on lower tier targets, IE: Limbus etc. Also very good.
The situations where it is useful is most of the time. Even on stuff like tiamat in the air, Ares is better than Avalon. You can hit 310 fire resist without using a body for resist. You dont need 5% damage reduction when tia is already hitting your for extremely low damage already. The refresh will generate more hate than a 5% reduction in what is already minimal damage.
Even if you are being hit for 100 damage while tia is in the air *and that's a lot*, Avalon will drop that by only 5 Damage, and as you take less damage the value of -5% damage taken becomes worth even less. 1mp a tic refresh will generate more hate than taking 5 more damage will lose.
Vs JoL you can hit the cap on Magic damage taken without Avalon so once again ares for the refresh is better.
Cit. buster? Once again you can cap -MDT without Avalon so in my mind the refresh is perfered.
Avalon is a great body piece, but its not better than Ares.
I think we're not looking at each piece stat by stat. It looks neat, it's the hardest to come by for *most* people. It has a couple neat tricks, but it doesn't get the job done at the end of the day. Each person has their own play-style, but don't come harking that it is the only way to do it, or even the better way.
Look at it stat by stat, what other piece gives refresh (Parade gives refresh but there is no reason not to stack these)? or 12 Str or 24 Atk? And we are ignoring the lol vit and Def of this piece, as well as the added HP which are all nice bonuses even though we wouldn't gear specifically for these stats. One again however, there is nothing that gives you ALL of this at the same time in only one slot.
As far as it "getting the job done". I am one of the main tanks in a very active HNMLS. Ares gets the job done for me and my LS on a daily basis. I had a Hauby +1 I have a Mbody, I have a Valor surcoat, I have used an Avalon breastplate. My opinion of Ares being the best body piece for a Paladin especially
in the endgame arena is based off of having or having used just about every other body piece available to a Paladin. My opinions are based off of my experiences with these items and gear sets, I've tried the other options and Ares work the best in my opinion.
If you're idling what importance is the head piece then! If you're doing something, you should be wearing something else. I think this is logic? Cures, Flash, JA's, recasts on shadows, are we honestly not doing anything for that long?
What value is the head piece? It's 5% haste or 12 Acc 12 Atk. This is ignoring the fact that Vermy doesn't have 24 Atk and 12 Str on it.
36 Atk 12 Str 12 Acc with refresh or 24 Atk 12 Str 5% Haste with refresh Vs just refresh
That seems pretty substantial to me, logic would dictate either of the first two gear sets is preferable. And considering how quickly I get TP I am quite sure we do spend enough time "idle" to make these sets worth it.
I really think you just over value enmity and undervalue refresh. There is a lot more information on the actual effect of enmity on our hate levels then they was in the past, and with all the info we have on hate caps and hate values I realize how I over valued enmity in the past. My gear set now doesn't have nearly as mush enmity as it had in the past, and in spite of that my hate holding hasn't suffered at all, quite the opposite it has gotten much better.
Hankthetank Edited, Mar 13th 2009 2:02am by Hankthetank