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Defense comparison for DD and tank gearFollow

#1 Jan 20 2008 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to request a favor from any paladin with a decent DD and tank setup (which is most of us i'd imagine), and that also has a parser.

There is a discussion going on in the feedback forum (link: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=29;mid=1199495678130322874;page=1;howmany=50#m1199495678130322874)
about suggested updates for PLD. Now, I for one like our abilities and I don't think we really need some of the suggestions. However, the thing that piqued my interest is the DEF/VIT discussion.

One poster said that there is very little difference in damage taken when we are wearing a DD setup versus a tank setup. Now, I know my damage numbers increase in the DD setup, but I have paid little attention to the damage numbers I take when in either gear.

But I know that when I am wearing an all-out tank and defense setup, my VIT is 72+33 and my DEF is 395 before Protect bonuses. In DD gear, VIT is 72+7 and DEF is 350.

If possible, can paladins with a parser get some samples from your DD and tank setups to see if there is a real difference in damage taken in each of your setups? Don't add food, protect, defender, or sentinel, and use /war for your subjob.

Perhaps with some numbers we can determine if there is much of a difference in each.
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#2 Jan 20 2008 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be willing to do it, but I have a small problem: Most of my old tanking gear is gone, and I don't really want to invest in much of it again. I'll look in to it and let you know, though - I'm almost to the point that I can compare Hauby to Gallant Body (level 57 right now, should be 60 in a day or two).

And, for the record, I favor the DD build. Started as soon as I could equip a Woodsman Ring and have since decked out mostly in DD pieces. Fortunately, my SAM and BLU get to enjoy the pieces, too.
#3 Jan 20 2008 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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I myself would be intrested in the outcome of this.

I dont have a parser. When I am looking at my DD choices DEF does come in to a fact a little bit.

But as i am Galka I look at how much MP i am loseing more then anything. I can equip swap out and all during rests and after certian spells are used.

I am just setting myself up as DD a bit more for Farming then anything else right now.
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My DD setup


My Tank setup
#4 Jan 20 2008 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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PLD doesn't need an update.

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#5 Jan 20 2008 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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With that being said, it sounds like we're getting some additional spells and job traits anyways.
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#6 Jan 21 2008 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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ScarShiva wrote:
PLD doesn't need an update.



Here, I'll quote myself so all the fail PLDs who think we actually need an update can rate me down again. LMAO
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#7 Jan 21 2008 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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paladins dont need an update- but crafted pld armor does need an update.
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#8 Jan 21 2008 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Paladins per say don't need an Update.

What does need updated is the formula for Def how does having 999 def = the same as having 500 def.

What I do want cause im a greedy person is that Shield Reflect Dmg thing they was talking about. you teased me with it now give it to me!!!!
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Get bent.
#9 Jan 21 2008 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll always be a proponent of Duel wielding shields. Weaponskill.... Sandwich?
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#10 Jan 21 2008 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am so looking forward to stuffing my shield into something's face and actually hurting them with it. I hope they add pointy spikes to the front of all of them. And sluices for the goo to drain cleanly. And maybe a battery pack to shock their exposed flesh with. Oh, and covered with poison. That explodes. That would be cool.
#11 Jan 21 2008 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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ScarShiva wrote:
ScarShiva wrote:
PLD doesn't need an update.



Here, I'll quote myself so all the fail PLDs who think we actually need an update can rate me down again. LMAO


Seriously, PLD doesn't need anything.

If anyone thinks PLD needs anything, please, time warp yourself back 2 years and level the job, you'll be flat out amazed how broken the job is now.
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#12 Jan 21 2008 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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We don't need an update. o.o
****Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to read the first hand experience but just the summary of ideals mentioned***
This is how I feel about tanking in DD gear vs. 'turtle' or tanking gear.

When you try to excell to the best point of both builds, gear wise and performance wise. On a Turtle setup, you can reduce damage so much with koenig and valor pieces, along with defender and defense food, and specially now with protect 5. This setup works on hate in a unique way. See, typically a PLD holds hate via provoke, flash, and curing. When we reduce the dmg we take to such a low amount, we have less and less HP to heal back, thus less and less hate. When a melee wears no enmity yet pulls hate off a tank with 30 enmity and who takes next to no substantial amount of dmg, we can clearly see the hate potential dealing raw damage can create. This is where a DD setup comes into play.

With the most recent updates to shield, shield mastery etc; Shield has easily come ahead at being more important than any of our other defensive gear, traits, or abilities, in single performance. If you took away everything we had to tank and had to chose one thing, it would be shield because if its phenominal defensive capabilities. Thusly, if you enhance shield via shield skill+, and trade off some tanking/vit/turtle gear for a mix of enmity and accuracy/attack, you maintain slightly more damage taken while dealing more damage as the trade off.

The thing is. When you look at it you cannot look solely at how much extra damage we take in a DD setup. What you want to look at is how we stil manage to hold hate at the same rate, but with the DD build we are contributing to killing the enemy that much faster. In a game of parsers where one DD is 5% ahead of another DD and bla bla bla; Having your PLD increase his DD from 10% to 17 or 20% is definitely worth the trouble. I was in a greater colibri party a week and a half ago, setup was WAR WAR NIN PLD/war(me) DNC(74) RDM(73 or 74).
My setup was:
Ohat
Haubergeon
Spikex2 earring
Company sword (used joyeuse as well, half and half because of the sheer difference in WS dmg between the joy and company)
Parade gorget
Woodsman
Venerer's ring
Amemeit +1 mantle
Life/warwolf belt
AFpants(yeah working on that)
Af boots

No food. Overall, All of my melee were able to eat food as I held hate through the first TP move, after the first they usually died before the 2nd tp move went off. xD I had sanction refresh and between me and the DNC we main healed. I wasn't in a turtle setup, I was taking much more damage than if i had been in a turtle/tanking setup. The key is we were still able to sustain unhindered speed on chaining enemies, while I was contributing to faster kills than we would have normally.

****In the end, its all about faster exp. Kill faster and you get faster exp. Seems simple to me. =) But only for Merit parties. Everywhere I go I take a mix of tank and DD gear to apply individually to each situation. To answer your question, yes, there is a difference. There is no sense in wearing tanking gear without using the full works, which include food and protect, and defender etc. To measure damage taken between a DD gearset and a tanking setup without using protect or food or defender etc. is a waste of time IMO because you are 1.) half assing the tank setup and 2.) not taking in account the amount of damage output increase from the DD setup, thus both contributing to skewed results from whatever conclusion you're trying to get to. D:

[edit] woops forgot to add. I will parse my next merit pt and take both gear setups. Ill parse dmg dealt by the melees and dmg i take in both gear setups.[/edit]

Edited, Jan 21st 2008 3:50pm by FenrirXIII
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#13 Jan 22 2008 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
I'd be willing to do it, but I have a small problem: Most of my old tanking gear is gone, and I don't really want to invest in much of it again.


Don't worry about changing your gear. Do one parse with a defense food (taco or fish mithkabob) and one with sushi. Neither route will hurt you in a party just for the sake of a parse.

Thanks in advance if you can figure an average damage-taken per hit for both situations.
#14 Jan 22 2008 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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Things I'd love to see:

Your parse as a DD in that party;

Not only the average damage per hit, but your total damage taken per fight;

The total damage taken by other members of your party per fight;

The time difference per fight between turtle and DD PLD; and

Your xp average per hour both ways.

:P
#15 Jan 22 2008 at 5:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I just hit 55. DD gear is not quite stellar at this level, but there's something for every slot if I want it. I'm maybe 20 points short of maximum defense in my hybrid build, and maybe 10ish VIT short, and a handful of AGI.

Ultimately this means mobs might hit for ~5 more points of damage. By far the biggest factor in damage taken is the food I eat. Just don't do silly stuff like wear a 0 defense headgear while eating meat or sushi.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:48am by madrone
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#16 Jan 22 2008 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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...and don't WS in defensive headgear >.>
#17 Jan 22 2008 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What does need updated is the formula for Def how does having 999 def = the same as having 500 def.
The same way having 999 Attack = the same as having 500 Attack.
#18 Jan 22 2008 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Apologize in advance: Wall of Text, but it relates to my testing. Also, any pointers given about my gear would be recommended, but note that I talk about my selection a bit later. Big thing that I'm looking at currently is the weapon. And the Gluttony Sword seems like such a waste of a sword, I don't want to bother with it.

OK, forgot to parse the experience, but I'll be able to shortly. Due to getting AF, I've found that I actually HAVE a tanking set (halfway through 58, and all I need is the NM fight for the body; should note, I've already bought a Hauby and it sits in my inventory mocking me for being too low level). As far as sword go, I've found that the one I'm using works fine. Especially now that we're in ToAU areas, I'm only seeing slight improvements with getting the +1/+2 versions (slightly faster, a few more damage), so I'm still using my trusty Tct.Mag. Espadon. I felt getting the hauby was more important that getting a new sword. Here's my two setups:

Level 58 Elvaan PLD

DD Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Valkeryie's Mask
Neck: Parade Gorget --> Spike Necklace (when latent isn't active)
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Antivenom Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Ryl.Kgt. Mufflers
Finger1: Venerer's Ring
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope -> Life Belt
Legs: Ryl.Kgt. Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Tanking Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: Parade Gorget
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Buckler Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Finger1: Verve Ring +1
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope
Legs: Gallant Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Max MP Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Valkeryie's Mask
Neck: Parade Gorget
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Antivenom Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Magna Gauntlets
Finger1: Venerer's Ring
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope
Legs: Magna M Chausses
Feet: Magna M Ledelsens

Couple of notes:

1) My brother and I own a PC between the two of us. Since I'm staticing with him and he's playing THF, he gets to use the PC. We're running a couple of more BCNMs so I can have my own. We've got the right setup - NIN/WAR, BLU/NIN, RDM/NIN or BLM/NIN, BLM/NIN, BLM/NIN - and we've done several runs. Have gotten three total so far, but have sold two of them. When I have one, this will replace my Spike Necklace.

2) The Buckler Earring I have macro'd for when I think I'm just taking too much damage. Really, though, I need to replace both earrings with spike earrings. It'd up my tp a little bit without sacrificing a whole lot.

3) When we started the party in Gustav Tunnel, we were over camping. I was barely into 57, and everyone else was 56 or less. Fights still went fast, but due to difficulty, I was usually able to use my Max MP gear. Once our lowest party member hit 57, though, things REALLY picked up, and we capped out at 6k/hr. The DD gear stayed on full time at that point, and between Parade Gorget, RDM Refresh, and Auto-Refresh, I was rarely below 100 mp by the end of a fight.

4) I actually found that I held hate better with the DD set up than with all the enmity from the Tank set up. I only lost hate twice the whole night (outside the 'first voke' thing, which was quite frankly really annoying - I can't WAIT for 60 for SO many reasons) to the SAM both times while in the Tank gear set.

5) The Tank Gear set only came on when I needed to maximize my defense because my health was falling quickly (four crits in a row followed by Big Scissors does that to a person...). I actually changed the name of the macro to "Oh $#17" for kicks. Noticed a small reduction in damage and, due to the Buckler Earring, I was able to get my cures off. I'm definitely keeping that earring around for that reason, though. Even if it's the only thing in the "Oh $#17" macro.

6) We didn't have a single death til the THF linked a crab while pulling an alchemist. Would have been fine, but our SAM decided to engage the crab JUST as the THF hit hide. Only the THF lived through that, and the party ended.

Like I mentioned earlier, I've got a Hauby coming and I'm to the NM fight of the Gallant Surcoat. I'll try parsing both sometime, since I'm at the ideal level range to do so. I'll also compare Sushi to Tacos, but I'm not really looking forward to that. I love my sushi too much.

Parse results will be forthcoming.

One final thing - 4 of the people in the parse will be static. I'm partying with my brother again, and we'll have the following set ups to every party we run. Notice the only thing missing are DD's. We should never have a problem putting the party together, and it'll be nice to have some constants to test against so that it isn't always a changing party - the more we can control the better. In fact, the MNK/WAR we partied with wanted to party with us again, so I may be able to have even more control over the variables in the test.

I think I'll start with doing a parse of both the tanking setup with defense food, a tank setup with sushi (Dorado, most likely), a DD setup with defense food, and a DD setup with sushi. I already have a good suspicion of what each will look like

PLD/WAR (me)
THF/NIN or THF/WAR (he wants to compare the two for himself)
RDM/WHM
WHM/BLM
DD
DD
#19 Jan 22 2008 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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ScarShiva wrote:
ScarShiva wrote:
PLD doesn't need an update.



Here, I'll quote myself so all the fail PLDs who think we actually need an update can rate me down again. LMAO


I actually agree. The last few times I've been tanking, I found myself getting a little bored just sitting there watching the hate stay on me. It got to the point that I tanked right through a 700 damage SATA onto the MNK and the mob didn't even turn (flash had 10 seconds and voke had 15).

Only sad thing is, I've played BLU for so long as a DD, I had to relearn timing my spells again. Only took a minute, but that first minute was embarassing. Interrupted four times in a row by a Slowed crab...
#20 Jan 22 2008 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Very interested in seeing the results... Tarudin 57 right now, and farming for Hauby, got Tct Mgc Espadon +1 instead of Gluttony, using Life Belt and Rajas Ring, and want to use Amemet Mantle +1 @ 61.

Pretty sure that I'll have more hate, just waiting to see if I'll take more damage, that setup is sacrificing about 18 VIT.
#21 Jan 22 2008 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel more comfortable in a High Breath Mantle than an Amemet +1. Maybe a placebo effect, but it just feels more solid.
#22 Jan 22 2008 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Doval wrote:
Quote:
What does need updated is the formula for Def how does having 999 def = the same as having 500 def.
The same way having 999 Attack = the same as having 500 Attack.


Not exactly, Attack becomes more and more useless because it takes so **** much of it to raise cRatio another .10 after you reach 2.0 and because of the 2.4 cap the "extra" attack ends up not being applied. Currently there is some sort of pDiff "floor" for when we're hit by monsters. After a certain point of Defense you simply can not lower the monsters cRatio anymore, this is also true with VIT and fSTR. Monsters don't have ridiculously high attack / STR, they have stupidly high base damage. Imagine a Greataxe DMG: 120 delay:250 and thats kinda what the mobs using at lvl 75. This is why shield skill is so great, its a percentage reduction so it cuts the damage regardless of the monsters stats.

SE doesn't need to make defense "mean more" as that would destroy the DDs output, they need to remove / alter the pDiff "floor" the monsters seem to have. Really once you reach enough defense so that the mobs hitting 1.0 cRatio anything beyond that seems useless. Really unless the mob uses an +attack move "berserk / warcry / boiling blood" 500+ defense won't make a noticeable difference.

On RDM/BLU I can get ridiculous amounts of defense, arround 750-800. I go fight EP monsters (without signet) and get hit for the same as my 500ish defense. So it shows there isn't a "defense cap" but rather a monster attack "floor".
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#23 Jan 22 2008 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Silenus wrote:
I feel more comfortable in a High Breath Mantle than an Amemet +1. Maybe a placebo effect, but it just feels more solid.


I actually found last night that the enmity from my High Breath Mantle was wasted. I didn't use it at all in the last hour and a half of a four hour xp party. And, yes, I lost hate during this time to the SAM twice, BUT I had more enmity from my tank gear (all AF on except body) than I did from the High Breath Mantle, so I think it's irrelevant. Either I would have kept hate at that time or, if not (which is likely), I wouldn't have gotten it back any sooner. One or two attacks on a DD isn't that bad of a thing. I really think the High Breath Mantle is a Placebo and I plan on ditching it as soon as I hit 61. Fortunately, thanks to BLU, my Amemet +1 is already sitting in my inventory.

I should also note that the WHM and RDM started using Curaga's almost exclusively after AoEs because I had that solid of a hold on hate. They'd single cure me from regular attacks, but Bubble Stream and Bomb Toss got Curaga'd. Made it that much more efficient to keep the party going.

It'd also let me play "uber-geek" and play swapping games with my back piece as needed rather than fearing that I'd lose the enmity bonus. I think High Breath Mantle has it's place, but as soon as the spiked turtle mode kicks in, I think I'd rather just use the Jaguar Mantle that's been collecting dust.

If people are interested, I'll post the whole parse file showing all damage dealt/received. I've got a way to filter out all the tells that I'd be getting, to keep some things private, but I can post the raw log. I'll definitely be going over it with a comb looking for stray pieces of information, such as when I lost hate. I will post the results that I get, though.

Only problem I foresee is not being able to get the parse up til Wednesday night. If you can't tell, I'm actually excited about this little venture. And the fact that I find myself with the old-fashined "tanking" gear to compare at the level it becomes available actually seems like a godsend to me.
#24 Jan 22 2008 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Dracoth wrote:

If people are interested, I'll post the whole parse file showing all damage dealt/received. I've got a way to filter out all the tells that I'd be getting, to keep some things private, but I can post the raw log. I'll definitely be going over it with a comb looking for stray pieces of information, such as when I lost hate. I will post the results that I get, though.


{Yes, please.}

That was my original hope for this thread - to get some numerical insight on this. Perhaps with it we can have some more information on gear sets we can bring to events, and if there really is a difference between tanking monsters in DD gear versus turtle gear.

Rate up!
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#25 Jan 22 2008 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Well its been found that +enmity is a direct percentage increase in the CE/VE gained from ALL actions performed. i.e. +5 enmity is +5% of the CE/VE generated. Now if you think for a second, swinging your sword, and hitting the monster count as actions, they would get the +5% enmity boost, so the more often you hit the mob and the more damage you do, the more that +5 enmity does for you. Adding +enmity along with DD gears nets the best total hate gained / generated. This is why a DD going full bore with no +enmity will generate more hate then a +30 enmity turtle PLD using defender/tacos.

I think its been posted here before, but this is the link to all that testing
http://kanican.livejournal.com/?skip=5&tag=enmity+testing%21#asset-kanican-13235
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Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#26 Jan 22 2008 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Well its been found that +enmity is a direct percentage increase in the CE/VE gained from ALL actions performed. i.e. +5 enmity is +5% of the CE/VE generated. Now if you think for a second, swinging your sword, and hitting the monster count as actions, they would get the +5% enmity boost, so the more often you hit the mob and the more damage you do, the more that +5 enmity does for you. Adding +enmity along with DD gears nets the best total hate gained / generated. This is why a DD going full bore with no +enmity will generate more hate then a +30 enmity turtle PLD using defender/tacos.

I think its been posted here before, but this is the link to all that testing
http://kanican.livejournal.com/?skip=5&tag=enmity+testing%21#asset-kanican-13235


As always, Saev, I love your advice. I knew this, as well, but wasn't really factoring it in. My point was that my DD gear set held hate far better than my "tanking" gear set, despite having less enmity. I think a lot of it had to do with your point, though, in boosting the amount of damage done (which, as far as I've been able to follow, hasn't been completely figured out yet).

This parse is purely from the stand point of proving what most of us already know. Not to prove things one way or the other, so, as stated, I'd like to control as many variables as possible. If my party members allow, I'll even try to get their gear sets so that we can even see that information. My only fear is in not having enough data to give an adequate data set for analysis, and I don't know if I want to play this game forever. Like I said, Wednesday (tomorrow) night, I'll try the setups I've listed.
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