Sage

4,906 posts

It's not that rindo might be as good as hagun, but the real question is can it be better? In the most anally retentive SAM, it might be.

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Caitsith

WAR excel sheet for damage calculations.

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Scholar

363 posts

thank you for saving me 32,000 conquest points. first try too.

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

"I got a maat's cap back when it meant something."

50,052 posts

Cheap people are awesome. Except the part that isn't.

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Sage

4,884 posts

Gippo wrote:

thank you for saving me 32,000 conquest points. first try too.

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

Wut?

[

Sage

437 posts

LordMnementh wrote:

Gippo wrote:

thank you for saving me 32,000 conquest points. first try too.

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8320/erlking.jpg[/img]

Wut?

Yeah what can you buy w/ CP that is better than the BASE Erlking's Kheten?

I'm sure you meant ISP...

Server: Cerberus

99PLD 70WHM 99WAR 99BLM 49THF 17MNK 12BST 1DRG 49NIN 47SAM 49RDM 49SCH 21RNG 99BLU

Scholar

36 posts

Just did my first try, got Erlking's Kheten with the following:

Dmg +4 double atk +2 water dmg + 18

I don't have perdu (or rank for it lol) or Byakko's, been using 4th top.

I'm going to keep trying for dmg +6 and other decent ones, but I took this because I believe it's better than 4th. I'm thinking what I've already got is better than Byakko's, what do you think?

Thanks in advance

Dmg +4 double atk +2 water dmg + 18

I don't have perdu (or rank for it lol) or Byakko's, been using 4th top.

I'm going to keep trying for dmg +6 and other decent ones, but I took this because I believe it's better than 4th. I'm thinking what I've already got is better than Byakko's, what do you think?

Thanks in advance

Sage

3,959 posts

Far as I know you'd be correct in that thinking, just don't fight anything that absorbs Water with it and you'll be OK.

LordFaramir wrote:

ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH

Scholar

359 posts

Given that the activation rate on the water damage is fairly high and with the additional double att it's fairly safe to say that's close to Perdu. Perdu may not even be as good as that axe you have there but it's hard to say and might depend on the eva and m.eva of the target. I personally wouldn't worry about getting a Perdu if you have that but I'd still probably get another Erlking's Kheten to keep trying for the +6 damage.

*Edited, Aug 4th 2009 1:23am by OrsonBastokChampion*

"Now! This is it! NOW is the time to choose. Die, and be free of pain; or LIVE, and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories. Your fate is in your hands!" 50,052 posts

SixSigma wrote:

Dmg +4 double atk +2 water dmg + 18

I'm going to keep trying for dmg +6 and other decent ones, but I took this because I believe it's better than 4th. I'm thinking what I've already got is better than Byakko's, what do you think?

I'm going to keep trying for dmg +6 and other decent ones, but I took this because I believe it's better than 4th. I'm thinking what I've already got is better than Byakko's, what do you think?

Course, I have a bit of dyscalculia, so taking my word on numbers and math is kind of a crap shot.

George Carlin wrote:

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Scholar

36 posts

Yeah that's what I was thinking too, just glad to get some confirmation. I am going to keep trying (my group thrown together with LS-mates was pleasantly surprised by how easy Grauberg was). I'm hoping to get another G-Axe with Dmg +6 and anything else remotely close to the top of the spectrum in the other slots.

The biggest downside of the water dmg at this point is that it overwrites drain samba (which I use a lot in campaign). Probably not all that big of a deal and the DA most likely makes up for it.

In Campaign I was seeing additional effect procs of 2-9 damage (eyeballed dmg alert take with a grain of salt). Not a huge deal, but a nice little bonus.

Scholar

217 posts

Just saw the best Kheten augments I've witnessed up to this point:

DMG+6, STR+3 and ATT+5

I know this is better than Byakko's, my question is does this push Perdu in high acc situations?

Is +1 DMG, +3 STR > 5ATT ?

Up till this point I didn't even consider getting an augmented Gaxe. After seeing that one it makes me wonder what I could do faster... get a comparable Kheten or get from Lance Corporal to SL...

DMG+6, STR+3 and ATT+5

I know this is better than Byakko's, my question is does this push Perdu in high acc situations?

Is +1 DMG, +3 STR > 5ATT ?

Up till this point I didn't even consider getting an augmented Gaxe. After seeing that one it makes me wonder what I could do faster... get a comparable Kheten or get from Lance Corporal to SL...

Moonlit Path / Odin's Guards

75 WAR: 4/4 crits | 5/5 DA/Berserk/Warrior's Charge | 8/8 Gaxe | 2/5 Toma

75 RNG: 6/8 Marksmanship

75 BST

37+ NIN SAM THF DNC WHM BLM

Current goals:

Assault rank up --> Perdu Voulge: Corporal 0/25

Nyzul --> 100 --> King's Justice: Floor 25

Bastok: 9-1

ZM, CoP, Apoc Nigh, ACP, MKT: Complete

ToAU: 44

WotG: ??

Scholar

1,804 posts

Perdu beats other weapons because of its accuracy, not attack.

EDIT: Best possible augments for each stat so far has been: +6DMG, +5STR, +8att, +2DA.

I'm still not convinced any combo will beat Perdu, since you can only have 3 of those.

Maybe 6DMG, 5STR, 2DA. But still doubtful.

*Edited, Aug 6th 2009 5:31pm by mazmaz*

Mazmaz EDIT: Best possible augments for each stat so far has been: +6DMG, +5STR, +8att, +2DA.

I'm still not convinced any combo will beat Perdu, since you can only have 3 of those.

Maybe 6DMG, 5STR, 2DA. But still doubtful.

Scholar

217 posts

Thanks for the reply Maz, I expected as much for anything beyond Nyzul or merits. But Nyzul and merits happen to be where my WAR gets the most playtime. With the advent of the moogle cap used as a 10 ACC tp piece for my WAR I will be near acc cap on birds and most mamools and capped 99% of the time in Nyzul. Since I have Nyzul and Assault statics going I only get a new rank say once every 2-3 weeks so Perdu is still 2+ months away. I might try to get myself a nice Kheten for the interim.

Edit: Near acc cap w/o aggressor

*Edited, Aug 6th 2009 9:09pm by DodiOnMidgard*

Edit: Near acc cap w/o aggressor

Moonlit Path / Odin's Guards

75 WAR: 4/4 crits | 5/5 DA/Berserk/Warrior's Charge | 8/8 Gaxe | 2/5 Toma

75 RNG: 6/8 Marksmanship

75 BST

37+ NIN SAM THF DNC WHM BLM

Current goals:

Assault rank up --> Perdu Voulge: Corporal 0/25

Nyzul --> 100 --> King's Justice: Floor 25

Bastok: 9-1

ZM, CoP, Apoc Nigh, ACP, MKT: Complete

ToAU: 44

WotG: ??

50,052 posts

Its definitely got a place as "not quite Perdu yet."

George Carlin wrote:

I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.

Scholar

411 posts

Acc-3 DMG+4 Flash+10

**** you SE

**** you SE

Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome.

Rank10 Bastok Sea+Sky

75DRK 75RDM 75WAR

Scholar

1,804 posts

DancingSaintVitus wrote:

Acc-3 DMG+4 Flash+10

@#%^ you SE

@#%^ you SE

Can you post a pic of this plz? So far there has been NO report of accuracy, whether positive or negative, on the G.Axe. It would be fantastic if it was possible to get acc+ on this weapon.

Scholar

411 posts

i dont have a screenshot but i can assure you it happened :/

Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome.

Rank10 Bastok Sea+Sky

75DRK 75RDM 75WAR

Scholar

363 posts

the guy talking about acc is talking about the bst axe.....

and the erklings is better than perdu if dmg is capped, and str is 4 or higher with attack of 5 or higher.

*Edited, Aug 9th 2009 1:11am by Gippo*

and the erklings is better than perdu if dmg is capped, and str is 4 or higher with attack of 5 or higher.

"I got a maat's cap back when it meant something."

Silent But Deadly

19,999 posts

Gippo wrote:

and the erklings is better than perdu if dmg is capped, and str is 4 or higher with attack of 5 or higher.

The

* The accuracy from Perdu is at least 2.7% DoT.

* The attack from Perdu will vary depending on base attack, but will probably be around 1.8% DoT.

* STR+4 + DMG+6 puts you at 2 base damage above Perdu (capped fSTR is highly unlikely). This works out to be about 1.9% DoT (assumption: fSTR=9, which is STR 99~102 for TP).

What's left for the DA to cover? About 2.6%. Assuming a base DA rate of 20%, a 2.6% increase in DoT requires DA+3% on the axe just to be fairly close to Perdu (the difference is slightly less than 0.1%) - and the largest DA+ we've seen to date has been 2%. Even without any other DA gear or merits,

If someone's got proof of a legitimate DA+3~4% one, then yes, everyone should try and take a stab at getting one... but right now, the best GAxe is still firmly in the realm of "you spend no gil to get me".

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151 posts

Comparing percentages like that is pretty cheesy when you stated all the information you need to calculate a paper-napkin average damage **per attack round** (not individual swing).

But first, your implied attack values seem totally unacceptable. Where does "1.8% DoT" come from? The typical naif (you can hammer me on this point if you want because I have no choice but to guess at your "thinking process") would take the ratio of, say, 555 and 545 attack and observe a percent change of ~1.8%. Seems like you were assuming the STR+4 Kheten had no additional attack. But if you did (being charitable here), your "1.8%" could imply attack in the sub-400s (for G. Colibri...) or a high-defense mob where melee damage is ****.

Anyway... let's use a high average pDIF like 1.825 for Perdu Voulge and 1.800 for Kheten. (Suppose these account for some non-zero, sub 20% critical hit rate).

Does double attack +2% cut it? No, by the faintest of margins.

Erlking's Kheten "average damage per attack round": .925*1.800*107***1.22** = 217.3491

Perdu Voulge "average damage per attack round": .95*1.825*105***1.20** = 218.4525

Does double attack +3 cut it? Yes, by the faintest of margins.

Erlking's Kheten "average damage per attack round": .925*1.800*107***1.23** = 219.1307

DA doesn't have to cover an alleged difference of "2.6% DoT". Subtracting percentages is a complete joke. It just has to be enough to let Erlking's Kheten surpass Perdu Voulge when the whole accuracy +5 still matters, and it does for my contrived values, with pDIF being the only questionable factors.

But first, your implied attack values seem totally unacceptable. Where does "1.8% DoT" come from? The typical naif (you can hammer me on this point if you want because I have no choice but to guess at your "thinking process") would take the ratio of, say, 555 and 545 attack and observe a percent change of ~1.8%. Seems like you were assuming the STR+4 Kheten had no additional attack. But if you did (being charitable here), your "1.8%" could imply attack in the sub-400s (for G. Colibri...) or a high-defense mob where melee damage is ****.

Anyway... let's use a high average pDIF like 1.825 for Perdu Voulge and 1.800 for Kheten. (Suppose these account for some non-zero, sub 20% critical hit rate).

Does double attack +2% cut it? No, by the faintest of margins.

Erlking's Kheten "average damage per attack round": .925*1.800*107*

Perdu Voulge "average damage per attack round": .95*1.825*105*

Does double attack +3 cut it? Yes, by the faintest of margins.

Erlking's Kheten "average damage per attack round": .925*1.800*107*

DA doesn't have to cover an alleged difference of "2.6% DoT". Subtracting percentages is a complete joke. It just has to be enough to let Erlking's Kheten surpass Perdu Voulge when the whole accuracy +5 still matters, and it does for my contrived values, with pDIF being the only questionable factors.

Silent But Deadly

19,999 posts

Glamrawkus wrote:

Comparing percentages like that is pretty cheesy when you stated all the information you need to calculate a paper-napkin average damage **per attack round** (not individual swing).

But first, your implied attack values seem totally unacceptable. Where does "1.8% DoT" come from? The typical naif (you can hammer me on this point if you want because I have no choice but to guess at your "thinking process") would take the ratio of, say, 555 and 545 attack and observe a percent change of ~1.8%. Seems like you were assuming the STR+4 Kheten had no additional attack. But if you did (being charitable here), your "1.8%" could imply attack in the sub-400s (for G. Colibri...) or a high-defense mob where melee damage is sh*t.

But first, your implied attack values seem totally unacceptable. Where does "1.8% DoT" come from? The typical naif (you can hammer me on this point if you want because I have no choice but to guess at your "thinking process") would take the ratio of, say, 555 and 545 attack and observe a percent change of ~1.8%. Seems like you were assuming the STR+4 Kheten had no additional attack. But if you did (being charitable here), your "1.8%" could imply attack in the sub-400s (for G. Colibri...) or a high-defense mob where melee damage is sh*t.

I mean, ****, the best I managed to pull off from their Lesser Colibri testing is that there's an inflection point for pDIF minimum at or near cRatio=1.6, and the multipliers are absolutely ******* backwards (the maximum increases at half the rate, roughly, that the minimum does). I don't even trust the formulas I've got that are a half-assed rough draft for the top end of the range to be reliable because of

Quote:

Anyway... let's use a high average pDIF like 1.825 for Perdu Voulge and 1.800 for Kheten. (Suppose these account for some non-zero, sub 20% critical hit rate).

Quote:

DA doesn't have to cover an alleged difference of "2.6% DoT". Subtracting percentages is a complete joke. It just has to be enough to let Erlking's Kheten surpass Perdu Voulge when the whole accuracy +5 still matters, and it does for my contrived values, with pDIF being the only questionable factors.

The math as I did it (the 38/37 is .95/.925, multiplying both the numerator and denominator by 40):

38/37 * (510/327 - 0.35)/(503/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

Solving for DA, we get 3.118% or higher.

Bumping the base attack to 600 (accounting for food and switching from double March to March/Min, I suppose):

38/37 * (610/327 - 0.35)/(603/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

And now DA needs to be 2.672% or higher.

But all this is besides the point when the only conclusion I gave was that, once again,

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151 posts

MDenham wrote:

503 vs. 510 on lv82 Greater Colibri. Probably a little low, but at least reasonable for a baseline (the assumption being 500 attack using a GAxe with no STR+ or attack+). I used cRatio in place of pDIF because *even BG doesn't have the two-handed pDIF formulas figured out yet*.

I should have anticipated you would be using maximum pDIF implicitly as though that is even correct (my caricature of what you might have done was unfair though) despite your hand-wringing about pDIF and two-handed weapons. Protip: what's the percent change if you use the currently "known" minimum pDIF? Now where would the percent change in

Another one: why do you expect cRatio to have a "1-to-1" correspondence to pDIF (what matters) in terms of "DoT?" As an example of non-1-to-1 correspondence, surely we don't go around considering haste only in terms of delay reduction, but rather in terms of increase in "DoT."

Quote:

If you link that thread again, you're an idiot: what it proves is that (1) the parity of your damage is twice as likely to match the parity of the mob's level vs. not matching (that is, you're twice as likely to get an odd number for your damage against mobs of odd level as you are to get an even number for your damage, and vice-versa against mobs of even level); (2) they agree that nameless is flat-out wrong; and (3) they don't have enough different cRatios to give any sort of pDIF formula that's *remotely* reliable yet.

Another failure of imputing intent characteristic of you. I referred to a thread on BG just to show that the distribution of pDIF can be symmetrical (for fairly high cRatio) as you were wringing your hands about asymmetry of pDIF when justifying use of RMS. It was NOT to make an authoritative statement about the relationship between changes in (c)Ratio and pDIF for two-handed weapons. What bogeyman are you conflating me with?

Quote:

I mean, ****, the best I managed to pull off from their Lesser Colibri testing is that there's an inflection point for pDIF minimum at or near cRatio=1.6, and the multipliers are absolutely @#%^ing backwards (the maximum increases at half the rate, roughly, that the minimum does). I don't even trust the formulas I've got that are a half-assed rough draft for the top end of the range to be reliable because of *that*.

So, based on three levels of colibri... okay.

Quote:

Quote:

Anyway... let's use a high average pDIF like 1.825 for Perdu Voulge and 1.800 for Kheten. (Suppose these account for some non-zero, sub 20% critical hit rate).

Do we have 0% critical hit rate on anything? Do you understand the concept of "average"? I already admitted the pDIF values are questionable, but not in terms of assuming 700 attack. (Actually, attack was in the 600s.)

Quote:

It's not subtracting percentages (though with figures in the single-digit percentage range and my habit of normally giving two significant figures, there's no noticeable difference between adding/subtracting and multiplying/dividing the majority of the time).

The math as I did it (the 38/37 is .95/.925, multiplying both the numerator and denominator by 40):

38/37 * (510/327 - 0.35)/(503/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

Solving for DA, we get 3.118% or higher.

The math as I did it (the 38/37 is .95/.925, multiplying both the numerator and denominator by 40):

38/37 * (510/327 - 0.35)/(503/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

Solving for DA, we get 3.118% or higher.

Okay, at least I see where you're coming from. Thanks for clarifying. But there's no terrible error between adding/subtracting and multiplying/dividing only when all your values you're dividing are close to 1, not because your ratios are close to 1, not that it really matters except for haste.

Quote:

Bumping the base attack to 600 (accounting for food and switching from double March to March/Min, I suppose):

38/37 * (610/327 - 0.35)/(603/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

And now DA needs to be 2.672% or higher.

But all this is besides the point when the only conclusion I gave was that, once again,**DA+2% doesn't cut it**, which your figures agreed with.

38/37 * (610/327 - 0.35)/(603/327 - 0.35) * 105/107 * 1.2/(1.2 + DA) <= 1

And now DA needs to be 2.672% or higher.

But all this is besides the point when the only conclusion I gave was that, once again,

Still, you're assuming 0% critical hit rate, which is more implausible than my pDIF values. 3% DA can work for my contrived situation, and considering hits beyond 100 TP (not uncommon in practice, really), the Kheten is a reasonable alternative if not categorically better.

Silent But Deadly

19,999 posts

Glamrawkus wrote:

Still, you're assuming 0% critical hit rate, which is more implausible than my pDIF values.

Let's use the following assumptions:

* pDIF multiplier for the average is 1.2 still (the naive "multiply all by 1.05" puts it at 1.26, while my attempt to fit things to the minimal data puts it at closer to 1.125)

* cRatio is as high as possible without seriously messing with critical-hit damage (so roughly 1.8, giving a pDIF of around 2.16) for the Perdu - this puts the Erlking's at about 1.778 and a pDIF of about 2.13

* lv82 Greater Colibri, the Norway rat of damage calculations

At a 20% critical hit rate, the ratio is 2.36/2.33, or 1.0128755. At a 5% critical hit rate, the ratio is instead 2.21/2.18, or 1.0137615.

The difference (well, rather, the ratio of those two figures)? 0.087467%. Less than one part in 1000.

(This is why critical hit rate generally gets ignored in

--------------

As far as my repeated complaints about the two-handed pDIF formula not being known yet, and the state of any attempts on it, that's mostly just out of frustration with a complete lack of data to try and figure it out again. (I apologize for the comment about that thread, though; it turns out that it's Redshift who decided that linking that thread would be useful when I was asking for parses to pull the pDIF distribution

Finally, covering the figure of 700+ attack - that was based off of the average using the "probably wrong" formulas I have at this point (min = cR * 1.5 - 1.32, max = cR * 0.75 + 0.9). 600ish makes more sense.

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Sage

4,906 posts

Guys, all this arguing is breaking our friendships apart. One love.

MojoVIII wrote:

Sweet! I love being sigged

Spoonless wrote:

HOLY CRAP GIGANTIC SIG.

Caitsith

WAR excel sheet for damage calculations.

Advanced Spellcast Script for WAR.

Retired - sold 200m

Silent But Deadly

19,999 posts

RedshiftOnPandy wrote:

Guys, all this arguing is breaking our friendships apart. One love.

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