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Pole Grip vs Sword StrapFollow

#1 Mar 15 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Pole Grip: Double Attack+2%
Sword Strap: Two-handed weapon delay-3%

So I was always under the impression that Sword Strap was trash because it lowers TP gain and doesn't do anything for WS. I've been using Pole Grip full time which I believe is the superior choice. However, recently I've been forced to sub /NIN and it got me thinking. Wouldn't Sword Strap be better in that situation? You can't get a 6-hit in any reasonable kind of setup on /NIN, so the lesser TP gain shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure we all remember that old graph of Double Attack vs Haste. Would be somewhat annoying to carry a different grip for each sub but if the increase is good enough, it'll be worth doing.

Any input on this or anyone able to do the math? If it's better, by just how much?

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 5:13pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#2 Mar 15 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
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#3 Mar 15 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow


Thanks, this is a very good explanation :)
#4 Mar 15 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow



Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
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#5 Mar 15 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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mazmaz wrote:
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow



Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
It's not 3% haste; it's3% delay reduction. It's applied before haste, and will be a constant 3% faster swinging. Haubergeon's +acc and dex bonus adds 6-7% to your hit rate. If you're at uncapped hit rate or below (which will happen guaranteed on most if not all merit camps and endgame situations) haubergeon will most likely pull ahead. Even if it doesn't, the extra damage output you'll gain is pretty miniscule.

As said before, it's counterproductive to build for more store TP after 6 or 7. You're sacrificing accuracy and possibly haste just so you can keep an x-hit. You can reasonably do such swaps on EM and weaker mobs without any loss, but it's questionable whether it's worth it to mix and match otherwise useless gear just to do slightly more damage on mobs that will die near-instantly anyways.
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#6 Mar 15 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Feedmenow wrote:
mazmaz wrote:
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow



Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
It's not 3% haste; it's3% delay reduction. It's applied before haste, and will be a constant 3% faster swinging. Haubergeon's +acc and dex bonus adds 6-7% to your hit rate. If you're at uncapped hit rate or below (which will happen guaranteed on most if not all merit camps and endgame situations) haubergeon will most likely pull ahead. Even if it doesn't, the extra damage output you'll gain is pretty miniscule.

As said before, it's counterproductive to build for more store TP after 6 or 7. You're sacrificing accuracy and possibly haste just so you can keep an x-hit. You can reasonably do such swaps on EM and weaker mobs without any loss, but it's questionable whether it's worth it to mix and match otherwise useless gear just to do slightly more damage on mobs that will die near-instantly anyways.
Besides Sword strap doesn't have any impact in your WS while pole grip still give you +2% DA, while minimal, this improvement is still there.

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#7 Mar 16 2009 at 2:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
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#8 Mar 17 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
Counter argument, Schwarz Lance, which is also fuckin' useless.

I say there's no point playing around with Delay, people know how to min/max with the "standard" delays for their weapons of choice (for Great Axe it's 504, for Polearm it's 492, for Great Katana it's 450, etc)

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 8:48am by Lucinus
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#9 Mar 18 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lucinus wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
Counter argument, Schwarz Lance, which is also fuckin' useless.
Counter-Counter argument. Warrior can't use Schwarz Lance, so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

Though, I guess you can make an argument for something like Darksteel Voulge and Darksteel Axe, since they have higher than average delays (Which is what your point was, right?), but even then I don't think the extra ten~ish base delay, coupled with Sword Strap's delay reduction is enough to outweigh Pole's DA bonus. One of the mathers can probably prove or disprove that, though.
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#10 Mar 18 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
Counter argument, Schwarz Lance, which is also fuckin' useless.
Counter-Counter argument. Warrior can't use Schwarz Lance, so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

Though, I guess you can make an argument for something like Darksteel Voulge and Darksteel Axe, since they have higher than average delays (Which is what your point was, right?), but even then I don't think the extra ten~ish base delay, coupled with Sword Strap's delay reduction is enough to outweigh Pole's DA bonus. One of the mathers can probably prove or disprove that, though.


if there were a GA with the exact same stats as perdu, but enough delay such that 3% delay reduction would bring its delay to the same as perdu, and its base dmg were more than 2% higher than perdu (with fSTR included), it would beat pole grip for melee. for WS, it would depend how much the DA helps the particular WS and how much higher the base dmg on the GA was. there isn't any such axe though, so it doesn't matter (above paragraph is tacitly talking about an X-hit store TP setup by the way; otherwise the pole grip would obviously win).
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#11 Mar 19 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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I'm using a fourth division toporok (lower than 504 delay) and am still 2 missions from a rajas ring anyway - would sword strap pull ahead here?
#12 Mar 21 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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tresker wrote:
I'm using a fourth division toporok (lower than 504 delay) and am still 2 missions from a rajas ring anyway - would sword strap pull ahead here?


Fourth Division Toporok has delay 474 and TP/hit 12.7%, so with Pole Grip you need:

7-hit = 14.3 TP/hit, 14.3/12.7 = 1.13 so you need 13 Store TP for 7-hit

6-hit = 16.7 TP/hit, 16.7/12.7 = 1.32 so you need 32 Store TP for 6-hit

If you use Sword Strap, your new delay is 474*.97= 460, and your new TP/hit = 12.0 which would be 9-hit to start

8-hit = 12.5 TP/hit, 12.5/12.0 = 1.05 so you need 5 Store TP for 8-hit

7-hit = 14.3 TP/hit, 14.3/12.0 = 1.20 so you need 20 Store TP for 7-hit

6-hit = 16.7 TP/hit, 16.7/12.0 = 1.40 so you need 40 Store TP for 6-hit


So if you don't have Raja's, you shouldn't use Sword Strap.

But if you do have Raja's, you can use Sword Strap because it won't cost you a hit. As /NIN you would likely not get 13 Store TP to hit a 7-hit build with Pole Strap, so you'd be 8-hit with either grip. As /SAM, you'd be 7-hit with either grip.
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