Pole Grip: Double Attack+2%
Sword Strap: Two-handed weapon delay-3%
So I was always under the impression that Sword Strap was trash because it lowers TP gain and doesn't do anything for WS. I've been using Pole Grip full time which I believe is the superior choice. However, recently I've been forced to sub /NIN and it got me thinking. Wouldn't Sword Strap be better in that situation? You can't get a 6-hit in any reasonable kind of setup on /NIN, so the lesser TP gain shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure we all remember that old graph of Double Attack vs Haste. Would be somewhat annoying to carry a different grip for each sub but if the increase is good enough, it'll be worth doing.
Any input on this or anyone able to do the math? If it's better, by just how much?
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 5:13pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
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Pole Grip vs Sword StrapFollow
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
ArchangelLBC wrote:
If you can't find a good reason for holding a belief or performing an action, then the belief means nothing and your a tool whose not worth talking to.
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Thanks, this is a very good explanation :)
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
mazmaz wrote:
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
As said before, it's counterproductive to build for more store TP after 6 or 7. You're sacrificing accuracy and possibly haste just so you can keep an x-hit. You can reasonably do such swaps on EM and weaker mobs without any loss, but it's questionable whether it's worth it to mix and match otherwise useless gear just to do slightly more damage on mobs that will die near-instantly anyways.
ArchangelLBC wrote:
If you can't find a good reason for holding a belief or performing an action, then the belief means nothing and your a tool whose not worth talking to.
Feedmenow wrote:
mazmaz wrote:
Feedmenow wrote:
With 504 delay, you have 8 hits naturally to get 100% TP, and need +5 store TP in order to get a 7-hit build. With Sword Strap you'd need 4 more store TP. /SAM needs 7 to get a 6-hit, and you can get away with 6 if you use RR/KJ. With a sword strap you'd need another 5 store TP to manage a 6-hit build, though with similar leeway you'd probably only need 4 to pull it off. However, after 6 store TP from gear, you start cutting gear you'd normally use (Rajas, Brutal you can easily fulltime) in order to keep the x-hit build, which may be counterproductive.
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Edited, Mar 15th 2009 2:34pm by Feedmenow
Soo.. does this mean that if you swap in a STP Body, you can "technically" get a 3% haste without losing a hit? Would that 3% make up for the accuracy lost from Hauby?
As said before, it's counterproductive to build for more store TP after 6 or 7. You're sacrificing accuracy and possibly haste just so you can keep an x-hit. You can reasonably do such swaps on EM and weaker mobs without any loss, but it's questionable whether it's worth it to mix and match otherwise useless gear just to do slightly more damage on mobs that will die near-instantly anyways.
Ken.
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It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Current Time Killer
lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
I say there's no point playing around with Delay, people know how to min/max with the "standard" delays for their weapons of choice (for Great Axe it's 504, for Polearm it's 492, for Great Katana it's 450, etc)
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 8:48am by Lucinus
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH
Lucinus wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
Though, I guess you can make an argument for something like Darksteel Voulge and Darksteel Axe, since they have higher than average delays (Which is what your point was, right?), but even then I don't think the extra ten~ish base delay, coupled with Sword Strap's delay reduction is enough to outweigh Pole's DA bonus. One of the mathers can probably prove or disprove that, though.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Current Time Killer
lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
It's delay reduction, which lowers the amount of TP you get per hit, so it's really counterproductive. That, and it's completely useless for weaponskills.
Though, I guess you can make an argument for something like Darksteel Voulge and Darksteel Axe, since they have higher than average delays (Which is what your point was, right?), but even then I don't think the extra ten~ish base delay, coupled with Sword Strap's delay reduction is enough to outweigh Pole's DA bonus. One of the mathers can probably prove or disprove that, though.
if there were a GA with the exact same stats as perdu, but enough delay such that 3% delay reduction would bring its delay to the same as perdu, and its base dmg were more than 2% higher than perdu (with fSTR included), it would beat pole grip for melee. for WS, it would depend how much the DA helps the particular WS and how much higher the base dmg on the GA was. there isn't any such axe though, so it doesn't matter (above paragraph is tacitly talking about an X-hit store TP setup by the way; otherwise the pole grip would obviously win).
I'm using a fourth division toporok (lower than 504 delay) and am still 2 missions from a rajas ring anyway - would sword strap pull ahead here?
tresker wrote:
I'm using a fourth division toporok (lower than 504 delay) and am still 2 missions from a rajas ring anyway - would sword strap pull ahead here?
Fourth Division Toporok has delay 474 and TP/hit 12.7%, so with Pole Grip you need:
7-hit = 14.3 TP/hit, 14.3/12.7 = 1.13 so you need 13 Store TP for 7-hit
6-hit = 16.7 TP/hit, 16.7/12.7 = 1.32 so you need 32 Store TP for 6-hit
If you use Sword Strap, your new delay is 474*.97= 460, and your new TP/hit = 12.0 which would be 9-hit to start
8-hit = 12.5 TP/hit, 12.5/12.0 = 1.05 so you need 5 Store TP for 8-hit
7-hit = 14.3 TP/hit, 14.3/12.0 = 1.20 so you need 20 Store TP for 7-hit
6-hit = 16.7 TP/hit, 16.7/12.0 = 1.40 so you need 40 Store TP for 6-hit
So if you don't have Raja's, you shouldn't use Sword Strap.
But if you do have Raja's, you can use Sword Strap because it won't cost you a hit. As /NIN you would likely not get 13 Store TP to hit a 7-hit build with Pole Strap, so you'd be 8-hit with either grip. As /SAM, you'd be 7-hit with either grip.
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