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Fortitude TorqueFollow

#1 Mar 10 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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So I'm working on getting one. I'm not good at the math going into damage calculation so I was wondering what you experts would consider a good situation to use the torque in. I was thinking that it would be generally good for both TP and Weaponskill assuming good accuracy and we're not talking about high level NM's or evasive enemies.

If you want specifics, here's my setup:

Merits:
GA 8/8
DA/Aggressor/Berserk 4/3/3
STR 5/5
Crit 4/4

I usually TP in:
Perdu Voulge
Pole Grip
Fire Bomblet
Walahra Turban
Peacock Charm
Assault Earring
Brutal Earring
Haubergeon +1
Dusk Gloves
Ulthalam's Ring
Sniper's Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Byakko's Haidate
Swift Belt
Unicorn Leggings

For weaponskills I'm using a Snow Gorget for RR and Breeze for SS/KJ.
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#2 Mar 10 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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#3 Mar 10 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah my question is basically is my ACC good enough make it worth the damage increase from using the torque for TP and/or weaponskill. Or would it be better swapped in for one or the other but not both?

But if you're asking if I full time that TP gear, then no. I never did sky while WAR so no Hetacomb, but for Raging Rush I'm swapping in:
Optical Hat
Snow Gorget
Pallas's Bracelets
Flame Ring
Rajas Ring
Warwolf Belt
Amir Boots

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#4 Mar 10 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
For TP the torque is great, but for WS the respective gorget for the weaponskill you're using will undoubtedly do more in terms of accuracy and damage output.
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#5 Mar 10 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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um ditch the Pallas' Bracelets; -DEX is a no no for Raging Rush. since Raging Rush crits and DEX helps your crits. those Bracelets are hurting you. also yes what Vlorsutes said the gorget will do more for you WS then the torque will. so use the torque for TPing and gorget for WSs. oh and it is also -ACC which also doesn't help



Edited, Mar 10th 2009 2:55pm by hirothegreat
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#6 Mar 10 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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hirothegreat wrote:
um ditch the Pallas' Bracelets; -DEX is a no no for Raging Rush. since Raging Rush crits and DEX helps your crits. those Bracelets are hurting you.
What should I replace them with (no relic or Heca)? Spiked Finger Gauntlets?
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#7 Mar 10 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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The compromise most people make in your situation is tarasque mitts +1
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#8 Mar 10 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I would swap out your Snipers ring for Rajas and just full time that because that 5 store TP when /nin will make your GA a 7 hit instead of an 8 hit. and if you swap out Ulthamam's with ecphoria while /sam you can get a 6 hit setup.

Or you could always eat carbonara but that can get expensive.
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#9 Mar 10 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
um ditch the Pallas' Bracelets; -DEX is a no no for Raging Rush. since Raging Rush crits and DEX helps your crits

Help me out with this statement.

Doesn't RR just add a certain % crit depending on how much TP you have? For example if a normal hit crits at 10%, and at 100 tp RR adds 20% crit (idk), then you would have 30% crit rate.
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#10 Mar 10 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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landael wrote:
hirothegreat wrote:
um ditch the Pallas' Bracelets; -DEX is a no no for Raging Rush. since Raging Rush crits and DEX helps your crits. those Bracelets are hurting you.
What should I replace them with (no relic or Heca)? Spiked Finger Gauntlets?
Yes.
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#11 Mar 10 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
landael wrote:
hirothegreat wrote:
um ditch the Pallas' Bracelets; -DEX is a no no for Raging Rush. since Raging Rush crits and DEX helps your crits. those Bracelets are hurting you.
What should I replace them with (no relic or Heca)? Spiked Finger Gauntlets?
Yes.


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#12 Mar 10 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did you pick a ring other than Raja's? Otherwise with that and Brutal with /Sam you have a 6 hit build (no need for ecophoria). For hands go with Tarasque +1, Spiked Finger Gauntlets, Fighter's Mufflers (yes these are acceptable), or Fighter's Mufflers +1.
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#13 Mar 10 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Bang for buck I'd say tarasque mitts +1 are best bet.

Yes mufflers+1 are free, but think of the effort involved in getting them compared to raising up the price of tarasque mits.
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#14 Mar 10 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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I just got this piece, swear by it for TP, but still WS in gorget, havent done any parse to backup why yet tho.
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#15 Mar 11 2009 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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BruthalAtak wrote:
I just got this piece, swear by it for TP, but still WS in gorget, havent done any parse to backup why yet tho.


I would do the same.
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#16 Mar 11 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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landael wrote:
So I'm working on getting one. I'm not good at the math going into damage calculation so I was wondering what you experts would consider a good situation to use the torque in. I was thinking that it would be generally good for both TP and Weaponskill assuming good accuracy and we're not talking about high level NM's or evasive enemies.

If you want specifics, here's my setup:

Merits:
GA 8/8
DA/Aggressor/Berserk 4/3/3
STR 5/5
Crit 4/4

I usually TP in:
Perdu Voulge
Pole Grip
Fire Bomblet
Walahra Turban
Peacock Charm
Assault Earring
Brutal Earring
Haubergeon +1
Dusk Gloves
Ulthalam's Ring
Sniper's Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Byakko's Haidate
Swift Belt
Unicorn Leggings

For weaponskills I'm using a Snow Gorget for RR and Breeze for SS/KJ.


appropriate gorget will always beat torque for WS. +.1 fTP on first hit > 7ATT on all hits, plus gorget has 3-4 more ACC on all hits.

PCC vs torque, chances are torque wins with aggressor up, PCC wins with aggressor down.

since you have 292 skill w/o torque, 299 skill w/ torque, torque gives you 7ACC (and 7ATT). so, the comparison (PCC vs torque) is 3ACC vs 7ATT.

at 80%ACC, 3ACC is a 1.87% increase. at 93.5%ACC, it's a 1.6% increase. starting at 550ATT (lowish) vs a lv82 g.colibri, 7ATT is a 1.65% increase in damage. it will be a lower increase vs lv81, or starting from a higher ATT.

so, PCC should slightly edge out fortitude torque if you're below 92.5% ACC. however, you run the risk of squandering some ACC with aggressor up if you have an ACC heavy setup and don't bother learning the EVA of various mobs and your total ACC.

one way or the other, fort torque and PCC are very close, if not virtually identical, damage-wise. myself, i would wear fort torque in an attempt to avoid making an "aggressor up/aggressor down" equip swap.


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#17 Mar 11 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
myself, i would wear fort torque in an attempt to avoid making an "aggressor up/aggressor down" equip swap.
I do that. Maximizing is fun, but being lazy is a far more powerful force to deal with.
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#18 Mar 11 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
appropriate gorget will always beat torque for WS. +.1 fTP on first hit > 7ATT on all hits, plus gorget has 3-4 more ACC on all hits.

PCC vs torque, chances are torque wins with aggressor up, PCC wins with aggressor down.

since you have 292 skill w/o torque, 299 skill w/ torque, torque gives you 7ACC (and 7ATT). so, the comparison (PCC vs torque) is 3ACC vs 7ATT.

at 80%ACC, 3ACC is a 1.87% increase. at 93.5%ACC, it's a 1.6% increase. starting at 550ATT (lowish) vs a lv82 g.colibri, 7ATT is a 1.65% increase in damage. it will be a lower increase vs lv81, or starting from a higher ATT.

so, PCC should slightly edge out fortitude torque if you're below 92.5% ACC. however, you run the risk of squandering some ACC with aggressor up if you have an ACC heavy setup and don't bother learning the EVA of various mobs and your total ACC.

one way or the other, fort torque and PCC are very close, if not virtually identical, damage-wise. myself, i would wear fort torque in an attempt to avoid making an "aggressor up/aggressor down" equip swap.

Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for.

And thanks for the responses everyone, great advice. I went with the SFG on my WS hands since I can use it for level cap situations. I didn't realize that a Rajas was all that was needed for a 7-hit build so I'm definitely going to switch out my Sniper's and use the Rajas full time.
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#19 Mar 11 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wish I had the "problem" of not knowing whether to use PCC or Torque ;;.

Related question. Would any of you advocate the use of orochi nodowa or another attk necklace in place of PCC in Nyzul? Or just using berserk and not aggressor because lolevades?
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#20 Mar 11 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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OP, what's your STR and DEX? (after STR merits)

LordMnementh wrote:
Related question. Would any of you advocate the use of orochi nodowa or another attk necklace in place of PCC in Nyzul? Or just using berserk and not aggressor because lolevades?


Between mobs, sure, Orochi. =)

Idk if you cap acc in Nyzul, though my guess would be yes, at least with g.axe.
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#21 Mar 11 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
appropriate gorget will always beat torque for WS


Love Torque for SA WS!
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#22 Mar 11 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheWulf wrote:
Quote:
appropriate gorget will always beat torque for WS


Love Torque for SA WS!


i'm sincerely hoping you know that DEX does not add damage to /THF sneak attack; ;.

also, in case anyone's wondering, sneak attack has no effect at all on the % increase in damage you get from gorget. the WS damage equation looks like this:

(WD + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * pDIF = weapon skill damage (the actual damage you do to a mob with a WS)

WD is your weapon damage, as seen in the description on your weapon when looked at in the item menu or whatever.

fSTR is a function from your STR and mob VIT. when high (and it's usually high), fSTR is (STR - VIT + 4)/4 (with any decimals cut off). fSTR has a cap that's determined by weapon rank. weapon rank is the number on your weapon divided by 9. so for example, byakko's axe is rank 10 (94/9= 10.444, so 10). the upper cap of fSTR is weapon rank + 8 (so 18 for byakko's axe) and the lower cap is negative weapon rank (-8 for byakko's axe). the only people that commonly cap fSTR vs merit mobs or above are MNKs or THFs stacking STR on WS (possibly NINs and axe-or-sword WARs), and occasionally during TP, or SAM on WS because they overload on STR.

WSC is "mods". an X% mod multiplies the relevant stat by X%, then multiplies it again by a level correction (.83 for level 75 players). say a WS has a 75% STR mod. the equation looks like (STR*.75)*.83. this number is floored at each step, meaning the decimals are chopped off. for example 130 STR, 75% STR mod looks like this:

floor(floor(130*.75)*.83) =
floor(floor(97.5)*.83) =
floor(97 * .83) =
floor(80.51) =
80

fTP is a multiplier that varies from WS to WS, and sometimes varies with TP. since it is universally more damage efficient to WS at 100%TP than later, people generally take note only of the fTP of a WS at 100%TP (or at 200%TP if you use a martial weapon such as hagun). king's justice, for example, has an fTP of 1.0 at 100%TP, 1.25 at 200%, and 1.5 at 300%. fTP doesn't have tiers; it increases linearly. so, with king's justice, a WS at 150% TP has fTP = 1.125. fTP applies only to the first hit of a WS, and is the part that gets affected by sea gorgets.

pDIF is a function from your ATT and mob DEF, that is corrected for how many levels above you the mob is. pDIF is a random number a little bit above cRatio, which is:

yourATT/mobDEF - .05*how many levels above you the mob is = cRatio

pDIF is what gets increased by a critical hit. for 1h weapons, pDIF ranges from 0-2.45~, and for 2h weapons it ranges from 0-2.7~ (forget exact cap, if it has even ever been discovered). a critical hit adds 1 to pDIF, and raises the cap to 3.15 (though see **note** if you care about a squabbling detail). /THF sneak attack just forces a normal critical hit. therefore, the only things affecting the goodness of sneak attack are how much ATT you have and the level and DEF of your target.

---

so, the only thing that influences the % increase your WS yields from a sea gorget is the fTP of your WS (and how many hits there are in the WS). for example, asuran fists has fTP=1.0, so a gorget raises the damage of the first hit by 10%. on a fully connected (8 hit) asuran fists, that's (1.1 + 1*7 = 8.1) a 1.25% increase. so, in a capped ACC situation, an ATT or STR neck option would need to increase damage a bit more than 1.25% to beat gorget.

rampage is interesting, in that its fTP (which again applies only to the first hit) is actually lower than 1, so it especially likes sea gorgets. the first hit of rampage has fTP = .5, so adding .1 fTP is actually a 20% increase in damage (very large). guillotine is in a similar boat.

anyway, while the value of ATT and STR and other things might change in different situations (different mobs, different buffs), the only thing that changes the value of a sea gorget, in terms of the damage it adds besides for the ACC, is which WS you use and (sometimes) how much TP you have.





**note** in actuality, 1h pDIF probably ranges from 0-2.4, and crit pDIF cap for both 1h and 2h is probably 3.0. the reason we see damage indicating a pDIF of 2.45 or 3.15 is that there is a random modifier to all damage that ranges from 1.0 to 1.05. note, 3.0*1.05 = 3.15. this is basically trivial; since we generally use cRatio as "average pDIF", we project a slightly lower damage than you'll actually get, but we don't overestimate or underestimate the impact of ATT (or anything else).

eg, say we suppose your dmg/hit is going to be (94 + 10) * 1.5 = 156. if the random modifier averages 1.025, your actual dmg/hit would be 159.9 (2.5% more than base dmg * pDIF), but so what? it's still all multiplication so:

base dmg*10% * pDIF * RANDOM =

base dmg * pDIF*10% * RANDOM =

base dmg * pDIF * RANDOM*10%

"RANDOM" makes no difference at all to theorycrafting, especially considering it is applied equally to melee as it is to WS.
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#23 Mar 11 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Default
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Where does the idea of the random 1-1.05 come from anyways? It seems very fishy to me. It makes things needlessly complex--it seems like it's just something patched on to cover up lack of understanding of the actual SE code. Like, from a programming standpoint, I doubt you'd really want to use two random numbers to get a single output number. Why wouldn't people just list it as an expanded PDIF? Unless, say, 2.96-3.0 is much more frequent than 3.01-3.05.

Edited, Mar 11th 2009 7:45pm by Eltio
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#24 Mar 11 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eltio wrote:
Where does the idea of the random 1-1.05 come from anyways? It seems very fishy to me. It makes things needlessly complex--it seems like it's just something patched on to cover up lack of understanding of the actual SE code. Like, from a programming standpoint, I doubt you'd really want to use two random numbers to get a single output number. Why wouldn't people just list it as an expanded PDIF? Unless, say, 2.96-3.0 is much more frequent than 3.01-3.05.

Edited, Mar 11th 2009 7:45pm by Eltio


because of how pDIF used to work, you would see hills at certain numbers (1.0 pDIF) if you graphed out dmg/each hit. now you get the same thing, but if you were to add in the 1.0-1.05 random mod.

i suspect they added it in to obscure pDIF, since they saw that we had figured it out. and, it worked for the most part.
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#25 Mar 11 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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<3 spellcast, idle in orochi and tp in tork/pca whenever applicable
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#26 Mar 12 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
<3 spellcast, idle in orochi and tp in tork/pca whenever applicable
Yeah I love spellcast. I often idle in Orochi Nodowa, Barone Corazza, and a Sol Cap. I get some strange looks for it lol.

I'm interested in how your XML works in the torque/pca when applicable, would you mind PMing it to me, or a link to it?
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#27 Mar 12 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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i'm sincerely hoping you know that DEX does not add damage to /THF sneak attack; ;.


Yes, THF main...why would a WAR even use a Love Torque? I'd think PCC > Torque with Polearm for accuracy reasons, but I don't have the math to back it up.
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#28 Mar 12 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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I'd use Love Torque with dagger or polearm on Warrior, if I had it. I'd also have to probably stay awake during a JoL fight to lot if it were ever free lot ...
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#29 Mar 12 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'd use Love Torque with dagger or polearm on Warrior, if I had it. I'd also have to probably stay awake during a JoL fight to lot if it were ever free lot ...
Or just totary ninja it?
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#30 Mar 12 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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TheWulf wrote:
Yes, THF main...why would a WAR even use a Love Torque? I'd think PCC > Torque with Polearm for accuracy reasons, but I don't have the math to back it up.


Pretty sure PCC and Love Torque have equal acc for polearm. :P
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#31 Mar 12 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Eltio wrote:
TheWulf wrote:
Yes, THF main...why would a WAR even use a Love Torque? I'd think PCC > Torque with Polearm for accuracy reasons, but I don't have the math to back it up.


Pretty sure PCC and Love Torque have equal acc for polearm. :P
Cuz DEX, incase you didn't seewuthedidthar.
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