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#27 Mar 04 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
If you're that worried about topping a parse, maybe you should level something else? WAR is supposed to be about versatility.

What endgame scenarios are Wars supposed to be versatile?
I have never been asked to come to an event as War b/c of versatility. I get asked to go as War b/c I can do insane amounts of dmg and win a lot of parses.
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#28 Mar 04 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
In Nyzul I tank, I kite, I DD, I pull, I voke, I fight and I die.

That's versatility.
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#29 Mar 04 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?

EDIT: Before some decide to spam rate downs because they're **** hurt, this all fits within the advice given in this thread. So please take that into consideration.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:37pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#30 Mar 04 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?


it's funny, because you think you're making a witty, sarcastic joke, but your inability to see subtlety is also why you're wrong about "who does the most damage" etc. so, i think your joke is quite funny:D.
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#31 Mar 04 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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What a fancy way of saying "you're dumb lol"

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:41pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#32 Mar 04 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What a fancy way of saying "you're dumb lol"

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:41pm by RedshiftOnPandy


if you're going to say "you're dumb lol", you have to try to spice it up. go big or don't go at all.

edit: completely off-topic of bickering with redshift, here is a strange observation:

i've noticed that most people who care about holding chain, getting high XP/hr, etc (like me and i think redshift), are longtime players with a lot of merits already. people who don't care and say "who cares about chain, i just wanna have fun!" are usually "casual players" who cite limited playtime (Because I Have A Job IRL!) for their poor gear and such.

now... i have a lot of merits. MNK had capped merits before ToAU came out. John CasualPlayer does not have a lot of merits (in fact, they will likely never have more than i had years ago). also, i play relatively often, and my insomnia allows me to stay up very late partying. John CasualPlayer does not play often (indeed, that's his fundamental, defining trait. I Can't Play A Lot Because I Have A Job). so... what the fuck? why isn't John Casualplayer moaning about XP/hr??? after he gimps it up and breaks my chain, i'm just going to join another party with better players and get more merits. he's going to log off and get back on the fishing boat or whatever Too Intense To Allow Me To Farm When I Play job he has irl. does anyone else see how strange all this is?


(of course, the answer to the strangeness is that John Casualplayer is just a fucking insecure whiner. in reality, lots of people have limited playtime and still manage to get a lot of merits and gil, expressly because they actually try instead of sitting around whining about no-lifers or whatever the fuck these idiots talk about.)

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:53pm by milich
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#33 Mar 04 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
In Nyzul I tank, I kite, I DD, I pull, I voke, I fight and I die.

That's versatility.

Dont get me wrong War is a very versatile job. Lets put it like this if you can go to the event /Sam you are not going for versatility, You are going to bust *** and War can bust *** with the best of em. No one should forget that ^_^
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#34 Mar 04 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Derailing my "bickering" already? =F

I never merited a lot, don't have that many merits either (gets boring after 30min, changing weapons extends this by 3min, so getting the most exp/hr is ideal. Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem), haven't played in a while but I've had the game since day 1 NA release though. That busy in real life business sucks, I tell you.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:08pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#35 Mar 04 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem


What a tragic commentary on our times.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:15pm by Lostkaws
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#36 Mar 04 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
Derailing my "bickering" already? =F

I never merited a lot, don't have that many merits either (gets boring after 30min, changing weapons extends this by 3min, so getting the most exp/hr is ideal. Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem), haven't played in a while but I've had the game since day 1 NA release though. That busy in real life business sucks, I tell you.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:08pm by RedshiftOnPandy


try it drunk.

really, i'm all for maximizing, but if you get so hung up on it that you look down on people for having fun with a mildly worse combo like axe/axe or SAM/RNG, i don't see why you don't just write a script in windower with "assist > attack > WS > hasso > etc" and have your friends get you merits for you. merits help endgame, of course, but if you don't have at least some fun with it, i'm not sure why you (or anyone else) would do it;;.

edit: p.s. the difference b/w axe/axe vs GA and osode-for-looks vs haub, or GA vs clubs, is that the looks argument doesn't affect actual gameplay (and can be remedied with dat swaps), and the club thing destroys your damage. mild hit to damage vs no damage at all = real difference.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:21pm by milich
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#37 Mar 04 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.



Yea, and about 21 merits in combat skills and a redoing of Cat1 merits, both of which lower G.Axe's potential greatly on the same character. I have no doubt that based on the merit settings of YOUR CHARACTER, Great Axe and Axe perform closely.

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Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.


I've been a Great Axe **** from the beginning. Check the GrumpyWookie thread.


Quote:
I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.



Do I think that if, instead of doing a damage of 37% with G.Axe compared to 30% of other DD's Axe, I lower my DoT to his level by using Axe our exp will suffer?

Yes, I do. Mathematically, it makes sense that if you lower something from one side of the equation, it will lower the other side of the equation as well (unless they are inversely related, which is not the case here).

A paragraph like that makes me think that you would endorse, say, a RDM subbing NIN and dual wielding in an exp PT while only hasting himself because there is a WHM in the PT (this happend the other night when I was leveling MNK). After all, it's WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.
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I suppose I could also call it "smallifying numberitude" but that sounds incredibly ***. Like, milich youtube playlist ***.
#38 Mar 04 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?

EDIT: Before some decide to spam rate downs because they're **** hurt, this all fits within the advice given in this thread. So please take that into consideration.[/i]


I wholeheartedly agree and to be quite honest I find this relaxed "hai guyz doesnt matter wut you use just haev fun lol" attitude kind irritating. All it does is allow and create gimp warriors. Yes, we have versatility and skill in lots of different weapons. That doesn't mean you should throw out all concept of what's appropriate or optimal. Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 9:09pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#39 Mar 04 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Lostkaws wrote:
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Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem


What a tragic commentary on our times.
But it's so true at the same time.

milich wrote:
pretend I quoted milich here.
I'm all for fun, start a party and go for it or play solo. But when I merit, I want merits asap (I'm sure I'm not the only one). Also, I've already tried to script that, doesn't work out too well in merit parties. But it works for Dynamis grinding though!

I wasn't actually trying to be funny with my comment, the point of it was to illustrate that the "whatever looks best" argument doesn't touch upon your damage output at all and places it solely on the support. If you compare one piece of gear vs another, you're not going to get a big change (most of the time at least). But in the end, it obviously adds up when you make the best choices in gear available to you. Weapons are no different than other equipment, except that it matters even more since if you use a stupid choice (clubs) instead of your best choice (great axe). It's a bigger difference than using the ********* body you can think of vs armada hauberk.

If you hate how great axe looks and the WSs, then DAT swap them to axes/swords/anything else and there's your 3min of fun while doing more damage.
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#40 Mar 05 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.
Yeah, except that we're not talking about entire gear sets, just weapon types. We're supposed to be giving advice on what works, and whether people want to accept it or not, axes and great axes both work. This is exactly the same attitude a few years ago people had; that Great Axes were a waste of time, that there was no situation for it, and it was a complete waste of time to use it. The only difference between the two were at most one or two percent.

It's the duty of the experienced players to give useful advice on both how to do their best and how to enjoy the game, not to breed a bunch of Warrior machines that think that think one percent is justification to dismiss one weapon set up over the other.

You're not a noob because you want to dual wield, just like you're not a noob if you want to use great axes. This isn't about Haubergeon versus Osode, or Sniper Rings versus Ruby Rings. Those things actually make or break builds. The weapon choices, not so much. I don't care if you want to be a bandwagon player, that's your business and you're welcome to it. When said bandwagon mentality starts becoming the advice "experienced players" give is when we start to really get "inferior noob players."

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 6:55am by lolgaxe
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#41 Mar 05 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Couple of observations:

1) I agree with Milich's commentary wholeheartedly.
2) I have a lot of fun in merit parties. I care about my damage, but I am not that ****. Merits are merits. I will get them when I get them. I would prefer faster parties but if I get stuck with a party that does 15k/hr instead of 22k/hr I really don't care. I don't really have to focus on meritting to make or break anything that I do. It is not really that serious. In fact, meritting is about the least serious thing you can do in this game. Although if I had a make-or-break merit, I'd definitely focus on it.
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Quote:
Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.


It generally doesn't cause problems, ever. If you are still insinuating that anyone who dual wields is a noob and anyone who uses Great Axe is awesome, then you have missed the entire point of an entire side of the discussion, or carelessly ignored it. You may also be like redshift and miss the entire point/suggestion that people reading these boards and these arguments are well aware that clubs are a sh*tty idea.

You think that giving people advice that they should use whatever they want within reason when it doesn't freaking matter is a bad idea. I think that giving people advice that they should actually think dual wield damage is actually lol when it is not even close to lol is a bad idea. I think you are wrong.

I assume that people are intelligent enough to know the difference, and that if they need to pick someone or some people up, they would do what is appropriate. However if they are infinite chaining and killing too quickly (which can often be the case) then they should use whatever pleases them as long as it is something which has a decent base damage and dot that maintains that chain and relative xp/hr. Usually a smart player who reads boards such as these would be able to make that distinction before anyone swings a weapon.

But I am an optimist. I sincerely hope that people understand there are caveats to both sides of the argument.

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 11:55am by LordMnementh
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#42 Mar 05 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Mathematically, it makes sense that if you lower something from one side of the equation, it will lower the other side of the equation as well (unless they are inversely related, which is not the case here).


Or unless there is a rate determining step, which there is on gcolibri (other camps too maybe, not sure). It's why cor roll is a legitimate option. If you have players that are extremely well geared and paying attention, and a good setup, then odds are good your xp/hr will be limited by repops. If 29 seconds is the time required to keep up with repops, and we all use GA and kill the mob in 26 seconds, switching to A/A and killing the mob in 28 seconds will not slow down xp, and in fact may increase xp by making chain breaks less likely. If every war then decided to wear parade cuirass, vir subligar, bounding boots and a tiger stole, then of course your xp/hour would suffer, but as has been said repeatedly in the thread - this is about GA v A, and if you try to extrapolate from that to mean all gear is interchangeable, of course you will draw the wrong conclusions.

Quote:

edit: completely off-topic of bickering with redshift, here is a strange observation:


When I first got to 75, all I wanted was merits merits merits, in any size, shape, color, xp/hr form. I accepted pretty much any invite, and was often on just for the purpose of getting merits. Meriting was fun because it was new, and I generally had something new in each merit party - new merits used, new gear, etc. After a few hundred of those, the novelty wore off, the gear got pretty standardized, and often I had no new merits from one party to the next (here's looking at you, str merits). Now I rarely get on just to merit, but I will flag up while crafting, farming, campaigning, working from home, watching a movie, etc. I do want to finish capping out my jobs, but not nearly as badly as I wanted merits when I first started. So if the party sucks, I'd rather keep doing whatever else I was doing. Especially nowdays when if you are 7k from capping a job, you can go campaign that easily enough and get/maintain rank while you are at it. I view merits like going to the gym - sometimes I really enjoy it, and sometimes I go because I know it's good for me but fck it sucks, and in those instances I want a good setup/group or I'll just opt out.
#43mazmaz, Posted: Mar 05 2009 at 10:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If I'm allowed to switch to axe/axe whenever I want, then I should be allowed to wear NQ Amemet on G.Axe. The difference in DoT between the 2 mantles is not even close to the difference between axe/axe and G.Axe.
#44 Mar 05 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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If I'm allowed to switch to axe/axe whenever I want, then I should be allowed to wear NQ Amemet on G.Axe. The difference in DoT between the 2 mantles is not even close to the difference between axe/axe and G.Axe.


Sure. If you want to switch out amemet+1 for ammemet and leave your GA on and every other piece of gear the same, it will make a minute difference. But no one is asking about that, because there is absolutely no reason to do that. This thread is about axe v gaxe, and as has been said over and over again - if you like axes more, go for it, the difference is minute and if you will enjoy rampage spam more than rush spam, fine. I guess if white borders triggered something in your brain that nerfed enjoyment, amemet+1 --> amemet would increase your enjoyment, and at a very minute cost, so go for that too.
#45 Mar 05 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Listen to yourself:

"Guys, we're killing too fast. Switch to Axe/Axe and NQ Amemets".

Is this a joke dude? You KNOW we're right, and all you want to do is argue for some lost cause.

What if a NIN decided G.Katana looks better?
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
@#%^, what if a BRD decided they love the sound of their voice, and didn't use instruments?

Weapons and gear are the SAME THING. They even appear in the same menu. What's the point of leveling a job if you don't even want to perform at optimal?

Save that @#%^ing around with what looks the best for your LS who appreciate your antics or don't be surprised that strangers yell at you for being a Richard.

PS. Done posting in here.

PPS. I had no idea Alla censors automatically changed a certain word to "Richard".

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 1:17pm by mazmaz
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I suppose I could also call it "smallifying numberitude" but that sounds incredibly ***. Like, milich youtube playlist ***.
#46 Mar 05 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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mazmaz wrote:
This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Listen to yourself:

"Guys, we're killing too fast. Switch to Axe/Axe and NQ Amemets".

Is this a joke dude? You KNOW we're right, and all you want to do is argue for some lost cause.

What if a NIN decided G.Katana looks better?
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
@#%^, what if a BRD decided they love the sound of their voice, and didn't use instruments?

Weapons and gear are the SAME THING. They even appear in the same menu. What's the point of leveling a job if you don't even want to perform at optimal?

Save that @#%^ing around with what looks the best for your LS who appreciate your antics or don't be surprised that strangers yell at you for being a Richard.

PS. Done posting in here.

PPS. I had no idea Alla censors automatically changed a certain word to "Richard".

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 1:17pm by mazmaz


this post is so stupid. i'm kind of appalled by it.

listen, (really, listen to this, because it will actually make you smarter), one more time because this is important, listen:

suppose someone says something to you that you don't agree with. MAKING AN ANALOGY THAT GROSSLY OVERSTATES WHY THAT PERSON IS WRONG WILL NEVER WIN YOU THE ARGUMENT. STOP DOING IT.

JUST

STOP.

it is so brain-numbingly stupid, and you and redshift have done it numerous times in this thread. fucking stop it, you don't want to be this stupid, and if you ever argue with anyone again (regardless of the topic), you will be SMARTER if you listen to me right now.

imagine a domestic setting. john and jane live together. jane asks john not to eat her leftover general tso's chicken from the night before while she's at work. jane goes to work. john eats the general tso's chicken. WHY DOESN'T HE JUST BURN DOWN THE APARTMENT!? SHE DOESN'T WANT HIM TO DO THAT EITHER BUT HE STILL ATE THE CHICKEN! WHY DOESN'T HE MURDER HER WHEN SHE GETS HOME? OR EMPTY THE ENTIRE FRIDGE INTO THE TRASH? I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK, HE ATE THE CHICKEN!

do you see how painfully stupid this line of reasoning is? there are things called "details". also, things called "reasons". when people have arguments, they need to consider those things. when they (like you) stop doing so, they start acting stupid. in this context, that's exactly what it means to be stupid.

people have already said: using axes won't significantly alter party efficiency, and further, there's a reason some people use axes (it's a different style of play that they may enjoy). you can argue "more enjoyable play style is not worth dropping X% damage." but when you run in making obvious overstatements like "HURRRR WHY NOT TAKE OFF ALL YOUR GEAR" you're just being a fucking idiot. if you always argue like this, ONLY IDIOTS WILL TALK TO YOU OR TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. please, please, please take this to heart.
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#47 Mar 05 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
milich wrote:
mazmaz wrote:
This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

That post is ridiculous.
Smiley: nod
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#48 Mar 05 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Default
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mazmaz wrote:
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
To be fair, it does look pretty nice. Smiley: sly
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#49 Mar 05 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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This reminds me alot of many DRK discussions I've seen about Scythe vs Great Sword. One is slightly worse but it's different and many people enjoy it. Will anyone ever get ****** off that a DRK is using GS in merits instead of scythe? No. So why should people get ****** off if a WAR wants to use axes?

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#50 Mar 05 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no idea what drew me to the WAR forum or made me feel it was necessary to post here, but I would like to add something.


While Mazmaz was unnecessarily confrontational, I do believe there was at least some merit to his argument. I mean, how is changing weapons and spamming 1 ws instead of another such a huge change to "playstyle" that it warrants losing out on efficiency (even if only a percent or 2), when leaving out other only marginally better gear because you "dont like the way it looks" is generally frowned upon?

I guess if you just really really really like that rampage animation then sure why not, I'm not gonna throw a hissy fit about it. As has been stated the differences are too small to notice without analyzing every fight via parser. But when the purpose of any DD should be to maximize damage without hindering the party, why is it OK to do something you know does otherwise? Is it really that much more "fun" to DW for some people than use a 2h?
#51 Mar 05 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Is it really that much more "fun" to DW for some people than use a 2h?


Sometimes... YES! I actually prefer DW man/joy working on man/ridill. However if a party asks me to switch to G. Axe..I certainly will, but I enjoy playing DW more. No one has ever had a fit about me dual wielding instead of g. axe. I am going to have to agree with most of the people here... it's your dime do what you want. That being said it's the other guys dime too...if he boots your *** then don't cry.

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:25pm by Lostkaws

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:25pm by Lostkaws

My spelling and grammar is terrible

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:27pm by Lostkaws
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