Should I...get a refund?Follow

In most all endgame situations, especially against the higher level hnm, Great Axe is going to perform better than Axes will. Personally speaking, I sold off my Maneater, cause even though I have Ridill to offhand, Great Axe (especially with /sam) gave me better results. If you don't intend to do any major end game situations like hnm fights, then Axe/Axe is not going to fall too far behind G.axe, so it'd be more of a preference choice.

I don't bother with axe/axe anymore - I sold off my Maneater/I.R./Woodville's long ago and don't plan on buying them back any time soon for WAR purposes.

Ironically enough, my BST is almost Maneater/I.R. level, so I may buy them back for that, but on WAR I'll stick to my Perdu Voulge.

I really don't mean to sound 2008/2009 mainstream, but imo there's no reason for a WAR to own an axe nowadays, save off-hand Ridill/Joyeuse, or for the purpose of pure fun.

I think one thing to look at as well is how much are you able to merit. I personally have crap for time so I went simply with GA only so I can use my merits on GA instead of Axe/GA/Sword. While I know this may not be the best reason, a fully merited GA is WAY better than a non merited axe/axe setup and is a hell of a lot easier to pull off well (not needing insane gear to do similar damage). Look at what you have available to you in terms of gear and meritting and make a decision.

If you have the time/gear/merits do whatever the hell your heart desires.

Places I use or would use axe:

- Merits sub Joy for fun.
- Rugaroo (Axe/Shield means more shots at actually swinging and not being intimidated)
- Draketrader Zlodgodd (Mistral Axe is better than missing your WS because of Jump spam)

Those are some, off the top of my head. I am tired of people saying there is no situational use for Axe. @#%^ing Christ.

You're the only one that seems to have taken a huge hit ...

I would change to "Use whatever you like more", but i quote the spirit.

You like great axe? Use great axe. You like axes? use axes.


Great axes are easier to gear for though.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2009 9:09am by wyrmnax

If you're that worried about topping a parse, maybe you should level something else? WAR is supposed to be about versatility. Use Gaxe, Axe/Axe or Axe/Joy. Dosn't matter to me. What matters to me is when you're so horribly geared you'll fail no matter what you do.

Then don't expect to be meriting long.

After reading this thread im probably going to sell my maneater. I haven't used it for anything since I been back in the game. I sold my woodsville to help fund my nin so I was just holding on to maneater in case something popped up. I figure if I need to dualwield ill main hand iron ram and mabey off hand my tungi or something lol.

if it were me, i'd sell the maneater. well, actually i wouldn't b/c 150k is sort of peanuts, but still, there's 2 dichotomies that need to be separated and looked at:

1) optimal setup [with or without luxury gear] vs comparable to mildly worse just-for-fun setup [with or without luxury gear]

2) luxury gear for optimal setup vs luxury gear for just-for-fun-set

i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).

you can feel 1 way or the other about (1) and (2), but it's not a matter of opinion that they are separate dichotomies/considerations.

See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.

Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.

I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.

it's fairly clear to me that such proof won't be forthcoming. 1 of my oldest friends in the game (who leveled WAR with my MNK on dhalmel in bibiki bay:P) has always been sort of an A.D.D. player regarding weapons, swapping between axe/axe, company sword/something, GA for the past 5 years. he still does this (as does my other old friend who leveled WAR a couple years ago), and the parses don't change dramatically when either of them switch to axe/axe. the results might change if we were max haste and they were /SAM, but in that case, with me and other people i look for when forming parties in party, chances are we'd still have infinite chain even if 1 member occasionally went AFK or started skilling staff.

the "both setups work" is even more dramatic if the setup you're occasionally switching to is axe/ridill + sword merits;;.

speaking of axe/axe vs GA, here's a 22k/hr gcolibri pt (was short-ish, 1 chain 67 then we disbanded), in which my old friend used GA and axe/axe. pt setup is: SCH, BRD, COR, WAR/NIN, MNK/NIN (me), DRK/SAM, w/ march/march, enblizzardga, chaos roll and fighter's roll up fulltime.

Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
DRK/SAM                  84917    25.56 %       45861           0          84       36754           0       2218 
WAR/NINvoker             95489    28.74 %       60453           0           0       29400           0       5636 
Pahn                    145464    43.78 %       96907           0         366       37314           0      10877 
 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
DRK/SAM               45861   54.01 %     275/90   75.34 %   104/236   159.79     17   247/324  272.59    6.18 % 
WAR/NINvoker          60453   63.31 %    519/157   76.78 %    42/252   107.92     57    94/319  185.89   10.98 % 
Pahn                  96907   66.62 %    937/242   79.47 %    38/131    90.90    177    98/191  157.20   18.89 % 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
DRK/SAM                     36754    43.28 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
 - Guillotine               36754   100.00 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
WAR/NINvoker                29400    30.79 %      40/0   100.00 %    181/1376   735.00 
 - Raging Rush              15077    51.28 %      19/0   100.00 %    181/1285   793.53 
 - Rampage                  13659    46.46 %      20/0   100.00 %    303/1376   682.95 
 - Steel Cyclone              664     2.26 %       1/0   100.00 %     664/664   664.00 
Pahn                        37314    25.65 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 
 - Asuran Fists             37314   100.00 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 

---

what's the point of showing this data?

a) we're at the most popular merit camp with 1 member doing 50% better than the next highest DD, with only 3 DDs, and carrying chain easily (ave. fight length 29.88 seconds). 1 DD is sacrificing damage for casting time and inferior sub, and 1 DD is DRK/SAM and parsing very low (read: is no where near living up to his potential).

b) the WAR's damage split was consistently around 60% melee, 40% WS, with raging rush only averaging about 110 (about 15%) higher than rampage. enspells actually added about 10dmg/round, making axe/axe actually somewhat attractive. you can take my word (or not:D) that the WAR damage %s stayed more or less constant (within a couple %) the entire party.

given (a) and (b), it's patently absurd to think that a decent party is going to lose chain b/c a WAR decides he likes spampage. there's penumbral parties where the mild % change could make a difference, but if 1 melee dropping 10% damage at most means no chain, a mildly slow pull or a fight where no one has TP and the first one who does misses his/her WS is also going to lose chain.

WAR/SAM w/ GA is the most damage you can do on WAR. but if you like axe/axe or axe/joy, and gear for it appropriately, it's pretty silly to say that using such a combo is some sort of affront to your party members.

edit:

a note on epeen and maximizing

since i've been sillily focused on forcing out every last bit of damage from my character for years, i'd like to make a small comment on maximizing and what it's good for. considering my "rrraaghghhh damage!" attitude, one would think there's some dissonance b/w that and "use axe/axe even if it's worse, who cares? you still hold chain." i don't think so.

regarding XP parties, the main point of maximizing is pickup parties. many, many, many times over the years i've partied with decent to sub-decent people who i've never met, with possibly not quite the right jobs in party or not at quite the right camp, or whatever, and carried the party to an infinite chain by doing 40%-50% party damage with 2-3 other DDs in party. this is the main virtue of maximizing. first of all, you raise your own potential for getting XP (you can't always find your favorite heavy-hitters when forming/joining parties). second, you create great parties for people who may otherwise never see above chain 10 even at gcolibri.

"fuck those gimps!" you might say. that's your right, sure, but i like being able to have fun AND get XP whenever i want. if you spend more time saying, "lol u guys sux" than getting merits, the joke's on you because i probably have more merits than you and do more damage than you can, and i've done a lot of pickup parties:P.

the other benefit of maximization is dynamis and limbus. 4-5 good members can carry 10-20 bad ones. it may sound unfair, but events admit of several degrees of skill/gear, and a good leader makes use of all of it. you don't hurt anyone by lifting everyone up:P.

but when EVERYONE is hardcore maximizing and it's just epreening... that's just its own thing. this game is too easy to require that kind of power, except for in a handful of events (t3 einherjar first thing that comes to mind). i enjoy that kind of thing, but maximizing has more benefits than just the penis contest.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 5:10pm by milich

In Nyzul I tank, I kite, I DD, I pull, I voke, I fight and I die.

That's versatility.

it's funny, because you think you're making a witty, sarcastic joke, but your inability to see subtlety is also why you're wrong about "who does the most damage" etc. so, i think your joke is quite funny:D.

if you're going to say "you're dumb lol", you have to try to spice it up. go big or don't go at all.

edit: completely off-topic of bickering with redshift, here is a strange observation:

i've noticed that most people who care about holding chain, getting high XP/hr, etc (like me and i think redshift), are longtime players with a lot of merits already. people who don't care and say "who cares about chain, i just wanna have fun!" are usually "casual players" who cite limited playtime (Because I Have A Job IRL!) for their poor gear and such.

now... i have a lot of merits. MNK had capped merits before ToAU came out. John CasualPlayer does not have a lot of merits (in fact, they will likely never have more than i had years ago). also, i play relatively often, and my insomnia allows me to stay up very late partying. John CasualPlayer does not play often (indeed, that's his fundamental, defining trait. I Can't Play A Lot Because I Have A Job). so... what the fuck? why isn't John Casualplayer moaning about XP/hr??? after he gimps it up and breaks my chain, i'm just going to join another party with better players and get more merits. he's going to log off and get back on the fishing boat or whatever Too Intense To Allow Me To Farm When I Play job he has irl. does anyone else see how strange all this is?


(of course, the answer to the strangeness is that John Casualplayer is just a fucking insecure whiner. in reality, lots of people have limited playtime and still manage to get a lot of merits and gil, expressly because they actually try instead of sitting around whining about no-lifers or whatever the fuck these idiots talk about.)

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:53pm by milich

Derailing my "bickering" already? =F

I never merited a lot, don't have that many merits either (gets boring after 30min, changing weapons extends this by 3min, so getting the most exp/hr is ideal. Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem), haven't played in a while but I've had the game since day 1 NA release though. That busy in real life business sucks, I tell you.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:08pm by RedshiftOnPandy

try it drunk.

really, i'm all for maximizing, but if you get so hung up on it that you look down on people for having fun with a mildly worse combo like axe/axe or SAM/RNG, i don't see why you don't just write a script in windower with "assist > attack > WS > hasso > etc" and have your friends get you merits for you. merits help endgame, of course, but if you don't have at least some fun with it, i'm not sure why you (or anyone else) would do it;;.

edit: p.s. the difference b/w axe/axe vs GA and osode-for-looks vs haub, or GA vs clubs, is that the looks argument doesn't affect actual gameplay (and can be remedied with dat swaps), and the club thing destroys your damage. mild hit to damage vs no damage at all = real difference.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:21pm by milich

I wholeheartedly agree and to be quite honest I find this relaxed "hai guyz doesnt matter wut you use just haev fun lol" attitude kind irritating. All it does is allow and create gimp warriors. Yes, we have versatility and skill in lots of different weapons. That doesn't mean you should throw out all concept of what's appropriate or optimal. Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 9:09pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto

Yeah, except that we're not talking about entire gear sets, just weapon types. We're supposed to be giving advice on what works, and whether people want to accept it or not, axes and great axes both work. This is exactly the same attitude a few years ago people had; that Great Axes were a waste of time, that there was no situation for it, and it was a complete waste of time to use it. The only difference between the two were at most one or two percent.

It's the duty of the experienced players to give useful advice on both how to do their best and how to enjoy the game, not to breed a bunch of Warrior machines that think that think one percent is justification to dismiss one weapon set up over the other.

You're not a noob because you want to dual wield, just like you're not a noob if you want to use great axes. This isn't about Haubergeon versus Osode, or Sniper Rings versus Ruby Rings. Those things actually make or break builds. The weapon choices, not so much. I don't care if you want to be a bandwagon player, that's your business and you're welcome to it. When said bandwagon mentality starts becoming the advice "experienced players" give is when we start to really get "inferior noob players."

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 6:55am by lolgaxe

Or unless there is a rate determining step, which there is on gcolibri (other camps too maybe, not sure). It's why cor roll is a legitimate option. If you have players that are extremely well geared and paying attention, and a good setup, then odds are good your xp/hr will be limited by repops. If 29 seconds is the time required to keep up with repops, and we all use GA and kill the mob in 26 seconds, switching to A/A and killing the mob in 28 seconds will not slow down xp, and in fact may increase xp by making chain breaks less likely. If every war then decided to wear parade cuirass, vir subligar, bounding boots and a tiger stole, then of course your xp/hour would suffer, but as has been said repeatedly in the thread - this is about GA v A, and if you try to extrapolate from that to mean all gear is interchangeable, of course you will draw the wrong conclusions.



When I first got to 75, all I wanted was merits merits merits, in any size, shape, color, xp/hr form. I accepted pretty much any invite, and was often on just for the purpose of getting merits. Meriting was fun because it was new, and I generally had something new in each merit party - new merits used, new gear, etc. After a few hundred of those, the novelty wore off, the gear got pretty standardized, and often I had no new merits from one party to the next (here's looking at you, str merits). Now I rarely get on just to merit, but I will flag up while crafting, farming, campaigning, working from home, watching a movie, etc. I do want to finish capping out my jobs, but not nearly as badly as I wanted merits when I first started. So if the party sucks, I'd rather keep doing whatever else I was doing. Especially nowdays when if you are 7k from capping a job, you can go campaign that easily enough and get/maintain rank while you are at it. I view merits like going to the gym - sometimes I really enjoy it, and sometimes I go because I know it's good for me but fck it sucks, and in those instances I want a good setup/group or I'll just opt out.

Sure. If you want to switch out amemet+1 for ammemet and leave your GA on and every other piece of gear the same, it will make a minute difference. But no one is asking about that, because there is absolutely no reason to do that. This thread is about axe v gaxe, and as has been said over and over again - if you like axes more, go for it, the difference is minute and if you will enjoy rampage spam more than rush spam, fine. I guess if white borders triggered something in your brain that nerfed enjoyment, amemet+1 --> amemet would increase your enjoyment, and at a very minute cost, so go for that too.

this post is so stupid. i'm kind of appalled by it.

listen, (really, listen to this, because it will actually make you smarter), one more time because this is important, listen:

suppose someone says something to you that you don't agree with. MAKING AN ANALOGY THAT GROSSLY OVERSTATES WHY THAT PERSON IS WRONG WILL NEVER WIN YOU THE ARGUMENT. STOP DOING IT.

JUST

STOP.

it is so brain-numbingly stupid, and you and redshift have done it numerous times in this thread. fucking stop it, you don't want to be this stupid, and if you ever argue with anyone again (regardless of the topic), you will be SMARTER if you listen to me right now.

imagine a domestic setting. john and jane live together. jane asks john not to eat her leftover general tso's chicken from the night before while she's at work. jane goes to work. john eats the general tso's chicken. WHY DOESN'T HE JUST BURN DOWN THE APARTMENT!? SHE DOESN'T WANT HIM TO DO THAT EITHER BUT HE STILL ATE THE CHICKEN! WHY DOESN'T HE MURDER HER WHEN SHE GETS HOME? OR EMPTY THE ENTIRE FRIDGE INTO THE TRASH? I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK, HE ATE THE CHICKEN!

do you see how painfully stupid this line of reasoning is? there are things called "details". also, things called "reasons". when people have arguments, they need to consider those things. when they (like you) stop doing so, they start acting stupid. in this context, that's exactly what it means to be stupid.

people have already said: using axes won't significantly alter party efficiency, and further, there's a reason some people use axes (it's a different style of play that they may enjoy). you can argue "more enjoyable play style is not worth dropping X% damage." but when you run in making obvious overstatements like "HURRRR WHY NOT TAKE OFF ALL YOUR GEAR" you're just being a fucking idiot. if you always argue like this, ONLY IDIOTS WILL TALK TO YOU OR TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. please, please, please take this to heart.

To be fair, it does look pretty nice.

I have no idea what drew me to the WAR forum or made me feel it was necessary to post here, but I would like to add something.


While Mazmaz was unnecessarily confrontational, I do believe there was at least some merit to his argument. I mean, how is changing weapons and spamming 1 ws instead of another such a huge change to "playstyle" that it warrants losing out on efficiency (even if only a percent or 2), when leaving out other only marginally better gear because you "dont like the way it looks" is generally frowned upon?

I guess if you just really really really like that rampage animation then sure why not, I'm not gonna throw a hissy fit about it. As has been stated the differences are too small to notice without analyzing every fight via parser. But when the purpose of any DD should be to maximize damage without hindering the party, why is it OK to do something you know does otherwise? Is it really that much more "fun" to DW for some people than use a 2h?