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A guide to performing as a Warrior/DragoonFollow

#52 Jan 13 2006 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Thats gonna be a slow as **** merit party =/
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#53 Jan 13 2006 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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"As for 80% Acc being Good: If the damage stays on par with my other DD/SC partners, then yes it is. If it falls behind, then I need to find ways to make it up."

Thats just the thing bro. You will not even come close to touching me in dmg or tp with this set up and meat. Courel subs (the higher lvl Kabobs) add a mere 10 points of dmg per swing and about that on WS for me (I am a drg/war).

With sushi my hits average 96-120 at 72 and I hit 95 percent of the time +. I also have jumps and I garuntee you will not even be in my relm. GA delay is worse then polearm for the most part and basicly any whiffs are going to hurt you bad.

+70 exp mobs die so freaken fast that you will never have the time to be effective. You will only ws everyother fight. I on the other hand will ws and then be at 80 TP the start of the next fight.

60+ things change alot! I am not knocking your potential dmg or your want to try this combo. I am knocking the thought of you not having to use sushi. You will fall behind to anyone who does.

Truth be told, at your lvl you shouldnt be useing sushi anyways. I think 55 is realy the lowest most dds should even consider it (thf could use sole sooner. +dex and str can come in handy. Plus at lvl 30 you have some daggers with acc whcih make the percentage actualy show) You just dont have enough acc acsess to push the cap up that low and 60 is probaly were you will need it. Im sure your dmg seems good now but you will fall behind very soon if you stick to att food.

It seems to me that you think the drg acc trait is going to make up the difference but as a high lvl drg I promise you it wont.

BTW, you got away with only +10-12 acc at 66 on drg?!?!?!?! Ouch! I had +46 acc I think and used sushi. You realy shouldnt give that much merit to our acc bonus. It gives us an edge but its not enough to make us able to slack on acc gear.

My 2 gil

#54 Jan 13 2006 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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As a Dragoon, until I hit 66, I was parsing 90-95% easily, with just sushi and attack gear. At 66, I got more Acc gear because I didn't trust wheeling thrust. Further, a Standard Lance delay is about 492. A Standard Great Axe is 504. Look at the beginning of my thread: Just that 5% haste puts my delay down to 479. That means I am swinging FASTER than you with an NQ weapon. @70, I also will have both jumps of Drg, so there goes your advantage there. In TP, I'll concede I probably won't keep up with you. TP gain in my Experience has been: Rng Drg War/nin and Thf tied, Sam last with meditate.

The problem here is, with sushi, my hits AVERAGE 40-60, and that is with a good amount of +att. And as I said, when I get to that point, I will see how it does, and if and what adjustments I need to make. Thus the point of the guide being a living document.

Archangel: Yes, it is a rather slow merit party, but we are all LS-mates and friends, and it has always been hard for us to find things to do in game together because currently our levels are all over the place. This gives us a chance to do things together, maybe farm some items we want, and in the case of our whm who is skillup happy, cap out her healing and enfeebling. I can honestly see us ending up doing Skillup parties and merits at the same time just for the **** of it.
#55 Jan 13 2006 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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You only did 60 dmg a hit at 66? O.O I have nevered averaged bellow 80 a hit (cept real early on) and I am almost always 90-120 and I had all of that acc. Somthing dosent add up here.

As for your delay being less then mine, yeah but only barely and your not counting the wyvern's dmg. You wont be able to keep up with me in DOT with this combo if I am drg/war. DA, beserk, more dmging jumps (drachen greaves ftw!) and wyvern dmg will make us pull ahead. Heck, even if I subbed thf I would probaly edge you out (sa jumps + sa ws)though that will be closer if I dont have DA.

Without useing sushi there is no way you could keep up with me in dmg or tp. If I am hitting 95 percent of the time and you are hitting 80, you are going to fall behind.

"TP gain in my Experience has been: Rng Drg War/nin and Thf tied, Sam last with meditate."

Um, no one can out tp Sam. It should go sam>war/nin/mnk/war>drg>rng imo. I can beat out some wars and mnks but not ones who are decked out with haste gear. Its real close. I still havent been beaten by a thf yet to my knowledge.

Welp, my 2 gil.

Im not knocking ya bro, just stateing my opinion. In the end of the day you pay for this game so its your desicion.

/salute



#56 Jan 13 2006 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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The damage I just listed is as a War with a Great Axe using Sushi, not as a Dragoon. Dragoon and sushi, my damage was equal to yours. What's more, I have regularly out-tp'd Sam's, simply because meditate wasn't up and my jumps were. I've never had an issue falling behind a thf, and as War/Drg thus far I've been keeping on par with War/Nin, 1 hit ahead or behind depending. That is with meat still for my current war level.
#57 Jan 13 2006 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I am just wondering... is it possible to use sushi and +atk gear for WAR/DRG + G.Axe and get good result at lvl 60? (I am not lvl 60 yet)

Does +20~25 ACC gear with sushi enough for xp in the lvl 60's?

Let said for lvl 60 WAR/DRG with:
1) +10 acc from DRG Job Trait
2) use two +5 acc ring (total of +10 acc)
3) Assault earring (Accuracy +2, attack +5)
3) Royal Guard's Collar (+4 acc, +4 atk)

assuming using G.Axe and eat sole sushi..

wearing:
1) Byrnie (Attack +20 for body slot)
2) Swordbelt +1 (Attack +12 belt slot)
3) Spiked Finger Gauntlets (Attack +12 hand slot)
4) Valkyrie's Mask (Attack +7 head slot)
5) combine with the +atk bonus from Assault earring and Royal Guard's Collar (+9 atk)
.. we can have like:
1) +26 acc plus sole sushi
2) +60 atk

Leave one earring slot and back slot for Haste+ gear, or switch the back gear with +atk gear, we still have feet + leg + range + ammo slot for whatever fill in those spots...

I think WAR/DRG at lvl 60 using G.Axe may work out too.

Just my 2 cents~
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#58 Jan 13 2006 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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The idea of boosting attack high enough to be able to use sushi did occur to me also; it has not yet come to fruition. As I am not 60 yet either, I cannot say, but I do like your idea. Differences, I'd still have the Hauby over the Byrnie: I'm Elvaan, and any -Dex hurts, even if just a little. Also, I enjoy the higher +Str of the hauby. Also, with the hauby, if that is enough attack for using sushi, it opens up a few more options: Rings

Instead of Acc rings, I could readily switch to an Assailants Ring: Att+5 and a Tiger Ring: Att+2. The other earring slot is already taken up with the Wyvern Earring(something that, without which, this entire job combo is rather mediocre at best), and the back slot: Wyvern Mantle: Att+6, to be replaced at 61 with the Amemet Mantle: Att+10(+15 if you can get an HQ). @60, I plan to be using the Knightly Mantle because I just like having Vit+4 on a back slot without the -evasion of my current Cavaliers.

Either way, thank you TroTro, it is another potential method, and I will have to adjust gear/farm again to pick up a byrnie and see which yields the best results, but I'm leaning towards the hauby(I like the gray).
#59 Jan 14 2006 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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For an endgame warrior, the two most efficent xp subs in terms of pure damage is /drg, and /drk.

Both involve the use of a sword.

In WAR burn-pts, not all 3-4 wars need /nin, only one or two.
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#60 Jan 14 2006 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
For an endgame warrior, the two most efficent xp subs in terms of pure damage is /drg, and /drk.

Both involve the use of a sword.

In WAR burn-pts, not all 3-4 wars need /nin, only one or two.




A dead warrior does 0 dmg. You fail.



Edit:



The problem with viewing sushi with a "I can get as attack from gear" or meat with a "I can get acc from gear" kind of problem is that outside of your rings slot, your waist slot, and ever so occasionally your body slot(and maybe head slot endgame), you just don't change all that much from going from one to the other. Haubergeon is still universally the better body piece regardless of build(which is why I always recommend it over Byrnie), a good chunk of acc ends up getting thrown in regardless of setup, and most of your truly hardcore attack gear is going to be worn regardless of food choice with the exception of swordbelt+1.

That being said, despite the fact that I can get out over 60 acc in gear, I always find sushi being the better choice for me. Somewhat odd. Being able to get 90ish% acc and still nail 1k Rampages though, besides being a tribute to just how messed up rampage is, just tends to get better results.


Granted, thats my experience. Others have different experiences, and I personally feel that, in general, it comes down to preference.

Edited, Sat Jan 14 09:44:01 2006 by ArchangelLBC
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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#61 Jan 14 2006 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I've had the same thing with Sushi, especially sole+1. I think a big part of it is that, with sushi, it seems much more common to land a critical hit, whereas with meat though the criticals are higher, they are rarer. The very nature of rampage being critical reliant for damage automatically makes sushi the better option.
#62 Jan 14 2006 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont think a warrior can effectivly sub anything other than nin in a weapon bash pt. It causes to much downtime without shadows.
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#63 Jan 14 2006 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I think WAR/DRG have the option for Axe + Shield as well.

Comparing Wyvern Earring (Latent Effect: Haste +5%) with Dual wield I (10% decrase to total weapon delay of 2 Weapons), they are about the same; WAR/DRG swing an Axe with Haste +5% in two rounds, is about the same speed as WAR/NIN Dual Wield I with a pairs of Axe in one round.

Dual Wield II is faster (15% decrease to total weapon delay of 2 Weapons), but there are some nice shield for WAR/DRG too. For example:

-- Lantern Shield: Attack +5 (lvl 19)
-- Wyvern Targe: Latent Effect: Haste +1% (lvl 30)
-- Balance Buckler: Accuracy +3 (lvl 40)
-- Strike Shield: Attack +6 (lvl 40)
-- Viking Shield: Attack +12 (lvl 45)
-- Spiked Buckler: Attack +5 (lvl 59)
-- Tatami Shield: Strength +5, Evasion +3, Enhances Killer Effects (lvl 72)

I think WAR/DRG can take full advantage of Great Axe and Axe, unlike WAR/NIN (favor in Axe) or WAR/THF (favor in G.Axe).

Just my 2 gil~ ^^;
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#64 Jan 14 2006 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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WAR/DRG favors Great Axe like WAR/THF because, similarly to Sneak Attack, Jumps will happen periodically regardless of the stats of the weapon used, so Great Axe maximizes the damage done and TP gained when the Jumps do occur. However, I have to agree that there are some pretty awesome shields out there that people just ignore.
#65 Jan 14 2006 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Jumps favor 2 handed weapons(unless we're talking ridill I guess. Not sure if that stacks with jump. Guess I could go test with joytoy).


Being free of delay its free TP more or less.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#66 Jan 15 2006 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
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In my experience ridill does stack with jump in the same way double attack does.

You'll notice wild differances in jump damage from 1-3 hits, but there isn't extra TP to be gained from it.

Ridill/Tatami haste/atk build (be it /nin /drg /drk) is my main DD combo for any subjob, Which is main reason to use /drk or /drg.
If your in an Ulegrande Range War-Burn pt with 2-3 other wars, you don't all need shadows. If you don't have two weapons, and don't need shadows, your gaining nothing from /nin, Thus at that point anything becomes better, with /drg probably being the most rounded of them (5% haste, extra tp, extra accuracy, hate shedding).
/Drk is more pure damage, but only do with a healer you trust, cause Souleater will eat you alive ;>.

(I would recommend neither for weapons parties, as a note, but who takes a war-burn to sky anyways? Demons forever!)
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#67 Jan 16 2006 at 3:24 AM Rating: Decent
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For the love of god, wars who sub /drk or /drg in merit partys do not deserve to own a ridill ; ;.

Call it harsh, but owning a weapon of that calibur and not using an axe in main hand or joyeuse in offhands as war/nin is just ridiculous. Especialy thinking a shield in offhand is your best bet for dmg.

If you want to be a "Think outside the box" type of player fine thats ok, but to suggest that it will outperform tried and true setups is just ignorant.

Also i would wager that using a ridill is the only reason you wouldn't be embarassing yourself next to a good war/nin or war/thf in exp pts with those sub job choices. It's the sword taking up the slack, not the sub.

But.. to each his own i guess lol.

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#68 Jan 16 2006 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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For the love of god, wars who sub /drk or /drg in merit partys do not deserve to own a ridill ; ;.

Call it harsh, but owning a weapon of that calibur and not using an axe in main hand or joyeuse in offhands as war/nin is just ridiculous. Especialy thinking a shield in offhand is your best bet for dmg.


First off, Ridill smashes Joyeuse into the ground in the off-hand, and using Ridill + Joyeuse kills any Axe + XXX combination by far.

Secondly, /drg is for the haste earing and /drk is for souleater and last resort. On certain mobs (flamingo's) Joyeuse + Tatami Sheild is alot better than Axe + Joyeuse due to it's peircing bonus and axe's blunt penalty. Also, Ridill + Tatami Sheild is still very nice for DOT, and /drk or /drg help's out due to losing the DW bonus from /nin.
#69 Jan 16 2006 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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First off, Ridill smashes Joyeuse into the ground in the off-hand, and using Ridill + Joyeuse kills any Axe + XXX combination by far.



Thats not always true. Sometimes maneater/Ridill outparses Ridill/Joy.



Real arguement against DWing with ridill is anything outside of Kclub slows ridill down somewhat, but with enough haste, you can still get more DoT from DWing, and defintiely better weaponskills.


As for singlewielding and using non nin sub....jesus those are some killer wars tanking for you. Ridill gets a LOT of hate single wielded by virtue of number of attacks.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#70 Jan 16 2006 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want to be a "Think outside the box" type of player fine thats ok, but to suggest that it will outperform tried and true setups is just ignorant.


Endgame rampage in XP is more about epeen then effectiveness, I can equip axe+ridill, ridill+joy , and well weaponskills will definetly be signifcantly higher on demons (700-1500 vs the 500-600 of ridll), your losing alot of damage on a hit to hit basis.

Has nothing to do with "Thinking outside the Box" , Its pure damage and efficency, a well-built 1hand ridill setup will out-damage every other combo *in general*(again, the standard disclaimer, various situations will change things, I make no absolutes) over several hours of XP.

I typically group with two other warriors, one does maneater/ridill, one does ridill/joy, I do ridill/tatami, I'm *always* at top of the parser.
(as a side note, its worth mentioning I have 271 sword skill, 278 soon as I can get a torque, if your not fully sword-build merited and everything, you probably are going to see lesser results).

So in summary, I'll say again, its situational, if your in a PT where you don't need shadows (because others do a good job with tanking and hate), then 1handed ridill is, in my extensive experience and opinion, the way to go. Drg and Drk subs work great for the combo.




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#71 Jan 26 2006 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Finally dinged 59 and 1/3 of the way to 60. I plan to start updating this again as soon as I hit 60 because saying that Hauby rocked to all **** would just be pointless. I didn't parse last party (3x War/Nin Smn Brd War/Drg), simply because The war/nins were 57 59 and 60 with me being 58, and I wasn't really too concerned about parser results yet(will be as soon as I ding 60 however).

I will say again, that sushi with Great axe is just not worth it. I used sushi for a half hour(sole). My great axe hits with 1 acc 1 att song went down to the 10-90 range(90-100s only happening with Berserk up). My great axe hits with meat with same songs: 90-120. With Berserk up: 110-150.

TP gain? I got off Shield Break at start and had 100% by end of fight, the war/nins (one with Darksteel and a Sword, one with Darksteel+1 and a Sword, one with Darksteel+1 and Darksteel and later Tungi offhanded) would get a Rampage off mid battle, and then a 2nd one off again towards the middle of the next battle or so. Mobs were only lasting about 30 seconds each, so none of us had time to build to 100 a second time(Unless we did Perytons, which then completely sucked).

Also of note: It took 3 War/nin tank/dds to keep hate off of me all the time, and even then I ended up with it...WHY?!...don't mind taking an odd hit here and there, but when a raptor or greater bird gets plastered to you and you have berserk up, HP goes down quicker than a fatman and a donut eating contest.

Looking forward to dinging 60 and seeing if the Acc trait from Drg is all it's cracked up to be...may take some time off to get the HQ Gax, as the NQ 59 Great Axe is a little slower than I like(Back to 504 delay with the NQ).
#72 Jan 28 2006 at 1:37 AM Rating: Default
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Want a good laugh? I decided to ding a party for the **** of it. God Pld, War/Thf War/Drg(Me) Rdm Whm Smn, ran my parser, all gravy. Hopped onto Drg for a second, got a party invite...DIDN'T RESET THE **** PARSER! *Beats his head against a wall*
#73 Jan 28 2006 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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did u mention about the drg earring? whatever it called, that add 5 haste or haste built?
need update on gear, kirin osode + rune GA.
that awesome combo.
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#74 Jan 28 2006 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you read the thread?


Reading a thread and then responding to things without stating stuff that has already been stated make an awesome combo.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#75 Jan 29 2006 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually picked up a Wyvern Earring so if I have enough free time to get DRG to 37 to sub, I can ***** around with Ridill and Martial Bhuj with DRG sub. Ridill is silly enough on its own that one subjob vs. another is just a matter of splitting hairs, you're going to do great damage either way.
#76 Jan 29 2006 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the big thing with this is that everyone is assuming it is being used as a God-High Tier combo only. It isn't. This is my regular XP combo.

Now, for the good news. I dinged 60 last night. Was PTing with a Thf before that(Note: Dancing Edge>>>Keen Edge has some very nice damage potential on Torama). Guide will be updated shortly, and I should have parser results available for request.

Edit: Forgot to add this in.

The same mob that had me dinged 60 dropped a Warrior's Testimony ^^y. Talk about a good night.

Edited, Sun Jan 29 12:52:45 2006 by blz
#77 Jan 29 2006 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Did you read the thread?


Reading a thread and then responding to things without stating stuff that has already been stated make an awesome combo.

are you talking about me?
sorry i havent seen those.
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#78 Jan 30 2006 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Edit is done. Ninozz, yes I did mention it right at the start. In fact, I said right there that without the Wyvern Earring(which is the one you are speaking of) this combination is rather worthless. I know, I tried it pre-wyvern earring to no real avail. If you don't have a Wyvern Earring and still want to go Gax, use /thf or tank with /mnk. Jump alone does not justify subbing Drg.

Think of it like this: The Wyvern Earring is to Dragoon Sub as Utsusemi is to Ninja Sub.

Secondly no, I don't need an update on gear. This gear is speaking as to what I have accomplished so far, or what is in the near(i.e. within 5 lvls) future. No, I have not discussed a haste build. There is a reason I have not: At lvl 60 there is not enough haste gear that is worth getting. The earring is fine, it's 5% and I lose what? 5 Attack. What else would you have me give up? My Lifebelt perhaps? I'm sorry, but seeing as Great Axe suffers so horribly with Sushi in my experience, the haste build has not yet justified itself. A 10% gain in accuracy for a 30-50% loss in damage output is not worth another 6% haste(nor is the bloody price tag).

Now, when I get to the lvl that I can use a Rune Chopper, will I? most honestly, no. I don't have any natural MP, and I feel it would be a waste to add onto the Refresh cycle needlessly. Berserker's Axe FTW. Will my opinion change at that lvl? Perhaps. Time will tell.
#79 Jan 31 2006 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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First edit didn't go ************ pc crashed). I skipped most of it to include the start of my Skillchains section. Happy Hunting.
#80 Feb 01 2006 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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edited again, with some parser results and another PT build.
#81 Feb 01 2006 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Good idea to add parses & gear listing and very interesting informations, me and a friend have been itching to see if war/drg could be viable for xp, and there it is. I think you'd get even more power when reaching 70 with high jump & barone pieces (jump tp bonus).

what's bothering me is that in your listing you're actually not using wyvern earring, which is THE item that made this sub kinda attractive to me in the first place ... or was it just your ws stuff ?
#82 Feb 01 2006 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I should have included it, but as it is stated earlier in the thread, without the wyvern earring, this subjob is rather useless. Unless otherwise listed, always assume I am wearing my Wyvern Earring as War/Drg

Edit: Sorry, just re-read what I wrote...don't list gear when Exhausted><. To Clarify, and it has been adjusted, I was wearing the Wyvern Earring and the Assault Earring. Thank you.

Edited, Wed Feb 1 15:39:01 2006 by blz
#83 Feb 03 2006 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Now I have to get my hands on one of them (Wyvern earring), and have many question in mind war/thf with meat PCC & haste : could it be good ?

Like you pointed out, you dumped approximatively 12% acc for more dmg, which was obviously a good choice seeing the parser results, the thing is that with/thf since you don't have that +5% haste, it might be a bit harder to follow the tp rate of a sushi user (like, another war, or drk for fragmentation, or even a rng).

I suppose getting hasted on top of having +5 is important too, but since I don't have a haubergeon (using someone's byrnie), noor 2 acc+5 rings (1 sniper + venerer atm) and even less an assault earring (yes, you can call me gimp) and my drg is 10, I won't be able to try this anytime soon, {That's too bad.}
#84 Feb 03 2006 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I won't call you gimp. They are expensive items. I got Drg to 66 with just a Ven Ring and a Str, eating sushi, and lifebelt of course. Stopped at 60 Drg to farm for SH and my Acc rings, and assault, so I've had the same chunk of gil circulating between jobs as needed for awhile. When that goes bad, I BCNM or Merc-Blm for KSNM 30 and hope for the best while still farming.
#85 Feb 06 2006 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Adding yet more Parser data to share the power of War/Drg. While I didn't check the Drk's gear specifically sadly, he did have on a Haubergeon. Party Setup as follows:
Pld/War
Drk/Thf 63 9k tnl, Scythe Capped
War/Drg 63 just made(600 into it) Gax capped during PT.
Brd/Whm
Rdm/Blm
Whm/Blm

Party Time: ~1:10 minutes hour
Exp Gained: 7k
Camp: Labyrinth of Onzozo: Gobs and Torama
Total Fights: 39

Drk/Thf:
Total Damage: 41836
% of mob: 29.36%
Melee Damage: 26924
Spell Damage: 1216
Skill Damage: 13495
Accuracy: 84.6%
Eating: Sole Sushi

War/Drg:
Total Damage: 76506
% of mob: 53.65%
Melee Damage: 51686
Skill Damage: 18785
Accuracy: 85.56%
Eating: Coeurl sub

Again showing the hype on sushi, that I parsed over him without using it myself, but I can't confirm this entirely since I didn't check his gear. I think though, if he had eaten meat, we would've done even better.

Edited, Mon Feb 6 10:24:45 2006 by blz
#86 Feb 07 2006 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Since I'm getting PLD and DRG pretty close to 40, I realised I should go back and level WAR which was stuck at 20.

I quickly discovered the reason I'd not levelled WAR; MNK is only 10.
So, I thought, let's see what Stats /DRG gives me.

Wow!
More STR, more DEX than MNK.

So I got to 24 and outdamaged every other melee in the party by a TON.

Even funnier, the Sam and I had to 2 hour in yesterday's party because the Nin got nailed, and the Sam's 2 hour did around 60 damage total.
I did about 500, and the mob died, so I couldn't keep hitting it.

Oh it was lovely!
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BLM:30, WHM: 51, DRG: 41, PLD: 38, MNK: 12, WAR: 24, BRD: 20, SMN: 25, BST: 9, RDM: 5, THF: 24 RNG: 19, DRK: -- , SAM: 19, NIN: 6
#87 Feb 07 2006 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry to go off topic a bit here but.... Angel your way off, Sushi does not beat meat, sorry.

My equipment is as follows:

Fransisca
Darksteel Axe +1
Combat casters Boomerang +1
Valkyrie's Mask
Peacock Charm
Minuet Earring
Assault Earring
Haubergeon
Spiked Finger Gauntlents
Woodsman ring x2
Amemet Mantle +1
Life Belt
AF Pants
AF Legs

So that comes to, +48 Accuracy (without combat casters in effect and Minuet in effect, because my static PT has a BRD) and +44 Attack.

I use Hedgehog Pie:

Effects for Hedgehog Pie:
HP +55
Strength +6
Vitality +2
Intelligence -3
Mind +3
MP Regeneration While Healing +2
Attack +18% (Cap: 90@500 Base Attack)
Ranged Attack +18% (Cap: 90@500 Base Ranged Attack)
Accuracy +5

Bringing my attack with absolutely no buffs to: 384 and Accuracy to +53. With my BRD's 2x Minuet im near 450 attack with no berserk and if we are in an area outside my nations controls my accuracy will be +57. Sushi does cap, and from what I understand it caps at +39 Accuracy.

Meaning if your wearing +20 Accuracy and using sushi youll have +59, a total of 2 more accuracy then me and a loss of 70+ attack.

Someone that has invested as much as I have in WAR will outparse Sushi in every way possible with meat at all levels and thats a fact.


Edited, Tue Feb 7 08:53:30 2006 by Cailee

Edited, Tue Feb 7 08:55:40 2006 by Cailee
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#88 Feb 07 2006 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Someone that has invested as much as I have in WAR will outparse Sushi in every way possible with meat at all levels and thats a fact.



It really isn't.
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#89 Feb 07 2006 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Someone that has invested as much as I have in WAR will outparse Sushi in every way possible with meat at all levels and thats a fact.


Actually, that is a blatant disregard of game mechanics and oversimplification of the truth. Each food has its own situation, and each setup has its best food. Dual Axes, I've never seen Meat come even close to Sushi. Great Axe, I've never seen Sushi come close enough to Meat to matter. Sorry, but to kidnap Archangel's Saying:

Quote:
You fail.
#90 Feb 07 2006 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, you say nothing other then I'm wrong. You have a probable 2-12 Accuracy more then me and I have a 90%+ Accuracy rating with 70-80 more attack. Gear can reach a 90%+ accuracy rating on IT, but there is not enough gear to make up the attack difference meat gives. Numbers dont lie, I'm sorry you cant count.

Edited, Tue Feb 7 18:34:17 2006 by Cailee

Edited, Tue Feb 7 18:59:49 2006 by Cailee
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#91 Feb 07 2006 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I read on KI that sushi has 39 cap; ffxi and somepage don't list a cap. Is there proof that sushi does have a cap? Attack is easy to measure since it is a number listed on your equipment page.

Determining accuracy involves adding gear with accuracy to determine when a mob changes accuracy rating. This would set the baseline of how much accuracy is required to change a mob to low defense.

To determine sushi accuracy, you would then eat sushi and then add gear to change the mob to low defense. Take the baseline and subtract the added gear to get the sushi accuracy.

If someone knows of a link of experiments done to determine sushi accuracy and/or sushi accuracy cap, I would be interested in reading it.

It's not that I don't believe KI, I just don't believe everything I read. Determining this for all sushi types is both expensive and time consuming - making me wonder if someone actually went through the trouble to do it. However, I do know that there are people with entirely too much time on their hands.
#92 Feb 07 2006 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm personally of the belief that sushi doesn't directly give +acc, but rather affects the accuracy equation in some other way. And if it does directly give +acc, I'm of the belief that the %acc values listed for it is well beneath what it actually gives. All of my experiences with Sushi have been such that I would not achieve a similar accuracy rate if I equipped as much +acc gear as Sushi purportedly gives.

Also, Cailee, there's no way you should have 70/80 attack more than a sushi user unless they're only equipping acc gear, in which place you're bragging about being better than gimps.
#93 Feb 07 2006 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Actually Fury, tell me all the attack pieces equippable by WAR. I can guarantee that 90% of the Attack/STR items your using a meat user is too. The only things I could see different in terms for a Sushi user is Swordbelt+1, STR+ rings and a Royal Collar (+4 attack) for a whole +20 attack more then a meat user would have pre food. I can use Bomb Core in most instances, since Hedgehog Pie offer +5 Accuracy replacing Combat casters boomerang.

My static PT has a BRD, pushing my Attack near 450 base attack power. Allowing Hedgehog pies to almost cap out at +90 Attack, granting yes after counting small subtractions, +70-80 more attack then a sushi user.
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#94 Feb 07 2006 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Fury,

In her gear she mentions 44 attack, but I think its 49 attack. One drawback in her gear setup is that it is low in strength (+8; 14 with food). With hedgehog pie giving around 80 attack, she would be 56 attack higher than my setup, but 10 STR lower than my setup. And I would say that I am not gimp.

I would try that kind of setup, but unfortunately I dont have a peacock charm, assault earring, second woodsman, or af legs. I did try meat on VT raptors in Ugglerand range in the low 60s with a bard doing madrigal with +32ACC and it just didn't work for me. Now that I am playing NIN in addition to WAR, RDM and BLM, I really don't have plans to funnel another 35-40mil into WAR.

I don't know what her damage looks like, but if I had that gear, I would test replacing the spike finger gauntlets for enkylados or pallas bracelets to make up for the low strength.
#95 Feb 07 2006 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Enekelado's are macro WS only. Also I haven't been able to sell my Spiked Finger Gauntlents back, none have sold in like 10 days. Damage looks like 60-70 per hit, 80+ with berserk, Rampage average 500-600, 17/17% TP ones have landed 900-1000 on IT.
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#96 Feb 07 2006 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I wear my enkylados full time (though I don't have the spike finger gauntlets). They are around the same price on my server. I think the giant bracelet line are great for mithra, because the -DEX/AGI don't bother me and it compensates for mithra low STR. I would think with your high attack, boosting STR might increase your regular hit damage.

If I had unlimited gil, I would keep tinkering with my setup to get the best results. It was kind of stupid for me to switch from sushi in ugglerand to meat; because I did a 989 rampage before switching and was doing great damage. However, something inside just wanted me to tryout a different setup.
#97 Feb 07 2006 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I finally decide to check this thread out and find that it's really a sushi vs. meat thread in disguise.

Quote:
Someone that has invested as much as I have in WAR will outparse Sushi in every way possible with meat at all levels and thats a fact.



Wow that's a pretty broad statement. Have you considered that the reason you do so much better than other Wars is not because of meat, but because you have between 50-100 million in gear? I know that having a Bard is a crucial factor. I might be convinced that meat + Brd is sometimes better than sushi + Brd if you had at least one set of parsed results with you and a sushi War who also has 100 million in gear. But how can you claim that it's always better in all circumstances? Your setup has a lot of attack, but has little STR and no haste. If I had your gil I'd still be using sushi but I'd throw a speed belt in there.

I used to be a die hard meat fan, but Rampage is so dependent on accuracy. Since it has an increased chance at criticals it really rewards you to consistently have all of your hits land. I very reluctantly gave up meat for Rampage, so its going to take more than a gear setup and some boasting to convince me that meat is better. Furthermore it would take a **** of a lot of parsing to convince me that meat is better than sushi without a Bard.
#98 Feb 07 2006 at 10:41 PM Rating: Default
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My BRD doesnt even use Madrigal, so. . .? I don't understand.

Like I said my accuracy is high 80, low 90% accuracy on IT monsters. I don't need parsing because I know exactly how much accuracy sushi gives at my level and how much most people will wear accompanied with it. Normal sushi user would have in a normal sushi setup, 2-12 more accuracy then me. I'm not sure about you but if there was a choice between a setup having +12 more accuracy or +70 attack I would probably take attack every time.

On Proccessionaires/Torama I had no trouble landing 15/15 Rampages or 17/17 Rampages...so I really dont understand where your coming from, sorry.

Edited, Tue Feb 7 22:44:39 2006 by Cailee

Edited, Tue Feb 7 22:57:26 2006 by Cailee
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#99 Feb 08 2006 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Wow, you say nothing other then I'm wrong. You have a probable 2-12 Accuracy more then me and I have a 90%+ Accuracy rating with 70-80 more attack. Gear can reach a 90%+ accuracy rating on IT, but there is not enough gear to make up the attack difference meat gives. Numbers dont lie, I'm sorry you cant count.


Quote:
My equipment is as follows:

Fransisca : O
Darksteel Axe +1 : X Balance Buckler(This is a War/Drg discussion)
Combat casters Boomerang +1 : O
Valkyrie's Mask : X Sold for AF
Peacock Charm : X RG Collar
Minuet Earring :X Wyvern Earring
Assault Earring : O
Haubergeon : O
Spiked Finger Gauntlents : X Sold for AF Gloves
Woodsman ring x2 : O
Amemet Mantle +1 : O
Life Belt : O
AF Legs : X RK Pants have been doing better
AF Feet : O



And I eat Coeurl Subs. So lets see...I have...9-12 less acc than you do in gear, and /drg trait for a flat 10...so 2 less than you at best. And no Static Brd. Just having a Static Brd already skews your results. Not running a parser to show the community your claim of high accuracy with this setup and meat is just making it your opinion with nothing to back it up. Since opinion's can't be wrong, I can't say you are wrong. I can still say however, you fail. Now I have PT'd with a War/Nin with the same setup that you have -PCC(RG Collar) and eating meat, and they only did 300 more damage than the war/nin with sushi and 500 less damage than me as War/Drg with meat.

Anyway, back on topic(This is what I get for making offhand comments and inserting personal observations). Please try to keep this about discussing and questioning War/Drg instead of making it Meat vs Sushi, because everyone has their opinion about what works best.
#100 Feb 08 2006 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually I was just saying that your current setup will not always beat a sushi warrior.



In fact I am pretty sure that a full haste build ridill war using sushi would probably stomp you flat, or even a full haste build joyeuse warrior, assuming you continued your trend of buying the really expensive items.



Your wallet is whats winning you in parsers. Grats.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#101 Feb 08 2006 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hay guyz wutz goin on in dis topik?

Another food debate huh? Nice... >_>

Give it up you meat eaters, a 99% hit rate gives people boners. We all know boners control a man.

Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
Someone that has invested as much as I have in WAR will outparse Sushi in every way possible with meat at all levels and thats a fact.






It really isn't.


It really is.

Seriously though, I don't really know. I just have a hard time taking this subject seriously anymore. =P
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