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A guide to performing as a Warrior/DragoonFollow

#27 Jan 11 2006 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone likes Pajamas. Me, I'll stick some armor in front of me first, thanks. So, with that being said, the Tank of choice is obvious: Paladin.


Amen brother!

Heh... anyways... to be ontopic...

I did War/Drg 30-50, then swapped to /Mnk, for Aggressor/Focus spamming... was going to swap back to /Drg at 60, when it gives Accuracy up trait, and Haub to cover those days when you wear your blindfold into battle...

I like the "/wait 2 Jump" suggestion, will have to implement that into my macros
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#28 Jan 11 2006 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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ArchangleLBC

Sorry did not want to imply the WAR/DRG was the best choice in dynamis, just suggesting that as BLZ get further along he look into cover end game uses of the sub.

BLZ

Something to think about if you are set on meat is Hedgehog Pie which give +18% Atk as well as +5acc. I doubt you will be able to get to a point that your acc matches Sushi eaters however. On the other hand damage with sushi for great axe does leave a bit to be desired. Try parsing both meat and sushi some time to compare both damage and accuracy. If the loss of acc is more than made up for by the higher damage then it could be worth it.
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#29 Jan 11 2006 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys who are saying "use food that give att and +5 acc to make up for not useing sushi" need to realize somthing. In no way shape or form can pure acc beat percentage acc that sushi gives. I am a 73 drg and sub war. With sushi I can maintain a 90 percent + acc rateing with a mere 22 acc in gear (the rest focused on pure str and att). When I switched to Courel subs and straped on full acc equip my acc was +44 (+ 54 if you count ther drg acc bonus which may or may not be gimped when subbing. Not sure it traits take a cut or not). My acc percentage droped about 10 percent. I even went and got back my on loan second sniper's ring which boosted me another +5 acc and it still was horrible.

With acc gear and bonus I was pushing +60 acc and hitting like crap compared to +22 acc gear and sushi. I am covinced that no ammount of raw acc can touch the percentage sushi gives you.

Just my 2 gil

#30 Jan 11 2006 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry if this has been asked before but i was curious how much TP jump and high-jump give from /drg?

and if anyone knows what TP returns from jump/high-jump with Barazone (sp?) chest macroed in.

Edited, Wed Jan 11 15:56:11 2006 by JoeSmoeTwo
#31 Jan 11 2006 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, addressing this 1 by 1.

JoeSmoeTwo: /Drg jumps return the associated TP of your weapon, 12-13 with a Great Axe, 7-8 with an Axe(the higher numbers sometimes from the .x of a weapons TP gain). Barone adds 1 more TP per jump. I am not the one who has tested this, I am just speaking from what overs have tested and shown. If you check the Drg forum, I believe someone ran a full experiment...but good luck finding it, spam city over there.

Aspidelaps: When I was a Drg, I tested the same thing. Not only was my Acc ridiculously high with sushi, but my damage actually increased per hit. Potentially a fluke, but who the hells knows, that's how it was and continues to be at times when I get back onto my lance-bearing job.

Losttroll: While I do not have it on record anymore, I have run the parser and temp-logged to reset it after checking results. Sushi I gained 10% accuracy, but sufferd a 50% damage loss. 10% Accuracy is not, and never will be, worth 50% damage in my opinion. I'll try to run it again tonight perhaps on EM-T mobs with a friend watching my back. As for hedgehog pie: I'm still wary of it, mostly because of the price which has been shooting up much higher than I am willing to pay for a disposable item.

Darkhaze: You experience a 15% loss, my experience is usually 10% accuracy loss. As stated above, this is for a 50% damage increase. Even with a 15% loss, 50% more damage is worth it. With my supposedly low accuracy, I am usually on par, 1 hit behind, or 1 hit ahead of my SC partner, regardless of what job they are. If a party can't wait 1 attack round to get off a SC, then I really don't want to be there with those impatient people, because chances are I'll lose more XP than I gain. Of course, rather than parse it, I would like someone else to if they would be so good, would help in not giving potentially biased information.
#32 Jan 11 2006 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Just to clarify the barone gear TP return, I am a 74 DRG with Barone feet that give the TP Bonus. With a regular lance attack I receive 12 tp. With Jump and High Jump that tp turns into 14. That is with drg main obviously, and the 1 tp may be with drg sub. Just thought I would clarify that for anyone interested.

Edited, Wed Jan 11 18:42:09 2006 by sblackey

Edited, Wed Jan 11 18:42:46 2006 by sblackey
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#33 Jan 11 2006 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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I swear to God if this turns into another meat/sushi debate heads are going to roll.


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#34 Jan 12 2006 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Darkhaze: You experience a 15% loss, my experience is usually 10% accuracy loss. As stated above, this is for a 50% damage increase. Even with a 15% loss, 50% more damage is worth it. With my supposedly low accuracy, I am usually on par, 1 hit behind, or 1 hit ahead of my SC partner, regardless of what job they are. If a party can't wait 1 attack round to get off a SC, then I really don't want to be there with those impatient people, because chances are I'll lose more XP than I gain. Of course, rather than parse it, I would like someone else to if they would be so good, would help in not giving potentially biased information.


Unequip your ACC gears or fight IT+ and that 15% accuracy lost would be a lot more obvious.

I'm sorry for turning this into a sushi/meat argument. Do as you wish because you'll learned and discover this on your own.
#35 Jan 12 2006 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I swear to God if this turns into another meat/sushi debate heads are going to roll.


Been awhile since I had one of those.

Here, I'll get the ball rolling.

Meat > Sushi

Ok, we ready? GO!
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#36 Jan 12 2006 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would I unequip my Acc gear? Even at times when I do use Sushi(1 hand Axe only) I keep my Acc gear on. Lower damage means I need more hits to make up for it. As far as IT+; if the pt wants to fine. I'll still not use sushi. Oh, and the parsing is done, by the way.

Mobs: VT-It Hi Defense Crabs in Cape Terrigan
Party Setup:
Pld War Sam Drg Rdm Whm

Food results 1: Meat Chiefkabob, 19 fights
25631 Damage 71.57% Accuracy

Food results 2: Sole Sushi+1, 19 fights
23197 Damage 82.88% Accuracy

Using Sushi, a Drg had the same damage as I did. Using Meat, Dragoon + the just over 2k damage from his Wyvern kept us equal to just my Great Axe damage. This was a 6k an hour PT, and I made my lvl midway through, so my Sushi results may be higher, since they ended up with a higher skill after a few fights and an assault earring adding to the acc.
#37 Jan 12 2006 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Meat > Sushi

Ok, we ready? GO!



Awesome. I'll stop the ball rolling.


You're wrong.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#38 Jan 12 2006 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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ArchangelLBC wrote:
Some crap


Can I just dig up that old thread and copy and paste my posts? I don't really feel like putting forth any real effort.

These other guys seem real enthusiastic about debating this though. I bet this will get entertaining. >_>
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I see a girl of the night with a baby in her hand. Under an old street light next to a garbage can. Now she's put her kid away, she's going to get a hit. She hates her life and what she's done with it.

That's one more kid that will never go to school,
never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.
#39 Jan 12 2006 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Can I just dig up that old thread and copy and paste my posts? I don't really feel like putting forth any real effort.

These other guys seem real enthusiastic about debating this though. I bet this will get entertaining. >_>




Not putting forth any effort is why I didn't want the debate to take place once again in the first place. Which is also why I just went with "You're wrong" instead of going into idiotic details about situational use and blah blah kill me now.

Tell you what, lets just sit back and let the pointless debate go forward. If they are that enthusiastic about it, we can let em get it out of their system before we let heads roll.


Sound good?
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#40 Jan 12 2006 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I had to rate this guide down, I don't see much application for /drg in this game as a warrior, especially in xp situations. Past 60, sushi is prominent because it really is so good, favoring dual axes. If you are using a g.axe, /thf is going to be preferable so that you don't get killed when pulling off a high dmg raging rush.
#41 Jan 12 2006 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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had to rate this guide down, I don't see much application for /drg in this game as a warrior, especially in xp situations. Past 60, sushi is prominent because it really is so good, favoring dual axes. If you are using a g.axe, /thf is going to be preferable so that you don't get killed when pulling off a high dmg raging rush.


I hope you at least read the guide before rating it down. Even if only from 20-30, there certainly is an application. 30-60, It allows you to keep up your great axe damage without so many hate spikes and pulling as Sneak Attack will give you. I'd call that an application(though I am only 58 thus far).

Personally, I just don't like sushi that much, especially not at 150k-180k a stack for the one I use. Also, when using a Great Axe, yes, /thf is preferable, with a SC closer. I haven't gotten to 60 yet, so I don't have raging rush, but once I do I will be looking for Pld/War War/Drg War/Thf for the RR>>>SATA RR SC onto the Pld.
#42 Jan 12 2006 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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150K-180K a stack! OMGWTFBBQ!!!;_; What the **** are you eating? That is over twice the price of Sole on Pandy (ok haven't bought in a couple days it may have gone up).

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#43 Jan 12 2006 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Sushi: Sole+1
Meat: Meat Chiefkabobs

I'm considering tentacle more and more, but thats still 50-80k a stack. I'm not comfortable buying food thats the same price as some of my lvl 30 armors.
#44 Jan 12 2006 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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this is also one reason I rated down this guide, no offense, but if you aren't even 60, you don't really have the experience necessary to be publishing guides on good ways to play a job. Also, cost for food shouldn't dictate what is the better choice. And, yes, I did read and disagreed with a large amount of it.
#45 Jan 12 2006 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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So 2 levels(12 hours of gameplay at worst) determines my ability to write a guide? ...That seems a bit ignorant, and if you have issues with it, please tell me what they are. I want to hear the issues and troubles people have with the combination so I can address them. If I have played a job combination for 28 levels, I don't have enough experience to tell others how to do it? A lvl 28 Thf can't give a lvl 5 Thf advice on how to play? Yes, I really am offended by how you are approaching this. Don't just say you have problems with it, state what those problems are.

As for cost of food dicatating what is the better choice: It hasn't. The price of my sushi of choice has not been justified in parses when using my meat of choice. 2000 more damage with Meat, in 20 mobs to make that up with an average hit means I need 1 more hit per mob. With Sushi, and the fact that it tends to gimp my Great Axe damage, I need 2-4 more hits in the same time to stay on par. Not justified. That's like saying that the +2 Att of the Swordbelt+1 Justifies the 250k Price Tag when the NQ is going for 8k.

Have you tried using /Drg in an XP situation? I've used /Nin, /Thf, /Mnk, and /Drg, while I am still leveling /Sam and /Rng for trial. Of those 4, I have gotten my best results with /Drg, good damage, a nice amount of HP, and not pulling as much hate as a /Thf. Can I blink tank if asked to; yes. Will I, if I have a choice? No. Do I have a choice? Always, its a game, played for my enjoyment. I thought it was funny as **** when I met a 60 War/Nin who actually doesn't even have rampage. He's been using the Great Axe since lower levels, even subbing nin. Is he gimped? Does he not know how to play as a War because he has 2 levels over me? Would he be more justified to write a guide?
#46 Jan 13 2006 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Have you tried using /Drg in an XP situation? I've used /Nin, /Thf, /Mnk, and /Drg, while I am still leveling /Sam and /Rng for trial. Of those 4, I have gotten my best results with /Drg, good damage, a nice amount of HP, and not pulling as much hate as a /Thf. Can I blink tank if asked to; yes. Will I, if I have a choice? No. Do I have a choice? Always, its a game, played for my enjoyment. I thought it was funny as **** when I met a 60 War/Nin who actually doesn't even have rampage. He's been using the Great Axe since lower levels, even subbing nin. Is he gimped? Does he not know how to play as a War because he has 2 levels over me? Would he be more justified to write a guide?


I was about to ignore this thread until it doesn't exist like all other similar threads. I give your credit for trying something different but you continue to comeback and make a mockery of the same people who disagree with you.

FFXI isn't designed in such a way so everyone can use WHATEVER subjob they can that would benefit an EXP PT the most. The reasons for /MNK, /THF, /NIN are all very obvious and has been tested to work under varies party setups and optimal level range.

In the game 3+ year life span, there has been one major nerf that took away the once useful /SAM. A so-called nerf to Utsesumi that hasn't really affected /NIN yet. To be honest, I can't recall any update that added benefits to /DRG.

Your short 38 samples for comparing ATK vs Sushi while using G.axe is about as flaw as possible and yet you don't see it. While as a WAR/DRG using sushi your damage is only 2k behind ATK food. Simple math here says you are giving up 10%ACC for merely 52 damage more per fight.

Yet you are more than happy to conclude 10% less accuracy is acceptable. When WAR/THF with sushi with G.axe will easily put your WAR/DRG with ATK food to shame.

Why so many ppl are afraid of pulling hate because of SA + Sturmwind? Why not get yourself a decent PLD tank that know how to Cover, Flash, Cure 3 you to regain hate in 10 second or less. Here is a tip that you wont see often at your level or even at lv.75... SA + whatever WS > pull hate then a THF or /THF (60+) SATA + WS puts hate back to tank.

While I haven't been a lv.58 WAR for over a year now, I can tell you a WAR/NIN post-55 using sushi can and will push for 85+% accuracy on VT-low ITs. You can /NIN and test this out. WAR/NIN post-55 losing to a WAR/DRG using G.axe is unheard of if you are using the right gears.

Being lv.75 or rank 10 in this game no longer translate to knowledge or even experienced. You are welcome to write a guide at any level but don't expect to convert the world into believing you. Again, this game is a bit over 3-years old, somethings has been proven to work and some don't. Until SE decides to add more abilities to DRG, you'll be hard to convince anyone that WAR/DRG is as good as you claim to be or hope to be in EXP settings.





Edited, Fri Jan 13 00:48:12 2006 by darkhaze

Edited, Fri Jan 13 00:56:07 2006 by darkhaze
#47 Jan 13 2006 at 1:10 AM Rating: Default
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Your short 38 samples for comparing ATK vs Sushi while using G.axe is about as flaw as possible and yet you don't see it. While as a WAR/DRG using sushi your damage is only 2k behind ATK food. Simple math here says you are giving up 10%ACC for merely 52 damage more per fight.


Yes, but as I gain those 2 more levels, I will be gaining 20 more points of acc, which should take me into a respectable level. And how many times has it only taken a hit of about 19-20 damage to finish off a mob for a chain 5? I'll take that 52 more damage.

War/Thf with Sushi, I had the same problem with a Great Axe, the damage reduction didn't warrant the use of it over meat. Further more, I Was attacking SLOWER, less hits per fight=less TP(even 1 less hit is 1 less SC or WS available to end a fight). Further, my Damage with SA+Sturmwind wasn't anything exceptional enough to continue using it for me. It wasn't about pulling hate, it was about being able to pull hate with sudden damage(the Dot-Spike I speak about, with WS + Jump), but being able to put up as good damage with less hate-taking issues. And if I take hate as War/Drg and ask for cover, people get angry. Take it as War/Thf, people get angry, take it as War/nin, people get angry, just not as much. In honesty, War/Thf, SA+Sturmwind wasn't even the best option if I wanted to SC, SA+Iron Tempest was. Very few people are willing to open up for a Sturmwind closing Fragmentation, though its put up better numbers than any of my Iron Tempest closers, and the majority of my Rampage closers.

As for your Post-55 argument, I've already tested this before: There has been no appreciable damage difference between the two of us. We are either on par, or so close that its really only 1-WS of damage or so between us in an XP session; that is with my 'horribly low, unacceptable accuracy'. Further, I am not trying to make the world believe me, I am trying to make other players aware of an option, and answer questions they have asked me about why I use it. Maybe that's why I ask people to say specifically what thier problems are with this guide so I can address it, and thus be more informative?

If you want to test the validity of my claim, try it out for yourself. I've already had people agree that it is an excellent ballista/dynamis sub, though not adding much to the hnm front. I've met Sam/Drg's who won't use any other subjob because /Drg has helped them to outpower anything else they can use, in XP and ballista, I've met other War/Drg's who use it situationally; I choose to use it in XP, and get good results from it. I don't think I am an exceptional player, nor have an exceptional understanding of the game, I think I am trying something out and proving that it is working to myself and to my party partners, enough so that those I have fallen behind in levels because I've been doing other things than level(trying to cap my marksmanship, leveling other jobs, farming to make up the last bit of gil I need for an Amemet+1) have regretted passing me; this has been the case with a War/Nin who has gotten some of his better Rampage results due to Armor and Shield Break, a Sam/War who loves to SC with me regardless of what we do, even though he gets upset that I have 200% TP by the time he has 100% if meditate is down, a Drg/War who's gear is outright ridiculous in price, but effective for him, and loves to be in any party I build because 95% of the time it is at the least a 5k an hour party.

Yes, I get very angry when I try to give information to the community, and I get ******** rammed down my throat about "Just because X and Y, you can't write a guide" or "Your subjob sucks because it hasn't been proven to be as good as X and Y subjob". I get an extra attack, a little more hp, and an upcoming acc trait, while at 70 another extra attack. With all the emphasis put on Double Attack for Wars, why is me having a guaranteed double attack proc every 1:30 when I use Jump right after a standard attack, any different?

Grah, I don't know why I even bother trying with this; Dragoon forum swears that anything but sushi is gimped, even though in parsers with Meat vs Sushi I've only seen drg's lose about 3-5% acc, and have virtually the same damage output with both. War disagrees with me that Meat+Great Axe surpasses Sushi+Great Axe. Fine, if you want to use Sushi and gimp your own bloody damage, go for it. a 504+ delay to hit for 36-40 damage when the War/Nin is swinging faster than that for easily 72-100 damage each round is acceptable, isn't it? Wouldn't DARE to eat meat and make that damage into a 72-110 damage with your Great Axe, and be on par with the war/nin, and supremely above when you hit criticals for 180+.

In Warrior Fashion: I wish you were a pinata.
#48 Jan 13 2006 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = ****** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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#49 Jan 13 2006 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you, Archangel, for giving me a reason not to bury a Great Axe in someones skull.
#50 Jan 13 2006 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, I get very angry when I try to give information to the community, and I get bullsh*t rammed down my throat about "Just because X and Y, you can't write a guide" or "Your subjob sucks because it hasn't been proven to be as good as X and Y subjob". I get an extra attack, a little more hp, and an upcoming acc trait, while at 70 another extra attack. With all the emphasis put on Double Attack for Wars, why is me having a guaranteed double attack proc every 1:30 when I use Jump right after a standard attack, any different?


Not once did I state /DRG sucks. Dont read between the lines. I repeatedly said it's not the MOST efficient in EXP PT. NO one before you proven it to be true and I highly doubt you will be that expection. SAM/DRG? They don't concern me since this isn't a SAM forum.

As for lv.55+ WAR/NINs doing simlar damage to you as WAR/DRG, I suggest you investigate whether they are even swapping +STR gears for Rampage. WAR/NIN with Ramapge don't become good just beuase they /NIN. Most "WAR/NIN DD only" don't even know the WS modifier.

What I wrote about WAR/THF is about as simple as I can put it. If your parties have crappy tanks that can't handle a 400+ WS dmg then your problem lies in the tank not because /THF. Hack, I even suggested a solution to solve that pulling hate issue.

I don't know who or what informs your double attack is the most important thing about being a DD WAR. AF feet adds +1 DA, AF2 legs adds another +1... as you can see there isn't a whole lot of DA enhencement. How did you conclude DA is the most important part of being a DD fails me. Most melees sub /WAR for Berserk. DA is too unreliable even for a WAR main to count on.

Most DD WARs I meet these days don't have a clue on how to dual tank, main tank, backup tank. Being WAR/DRG puts you in another disadvantage where you can't even backup tank. The simple task of provoking adds, 90% of the WARs I see these days don't know how or don't bother.

While you cheer on more dmg per swing using G.axe with ATK food, mobs with higher evasion @65, 70, 75 will make you regret for ever accepting that 70-80%ACC as good. EXPing and level up in this game changes once you get past 60, 65, 70, 73-75 is another major change due to the way ppl setup parties and better gears at higher level. What you parsed and learn pre-60 can't be apply to 65 or 70 and certainly not @75.

You will hate this but I'll tell you right now, enjoy your /DRG because you won't be using that option in merit parties.
#51 Jan 13 2006 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Critical Reading: Reading between the lines of what someone is saying and taking it in context. Also, it being said does not mean it was said specifically about you. What's more, the Post-60 game isn't so much of a scary thing to me. No, I don't have any post 70s yet, but I did bring Drg up to 66 without accuracy gear but lifebelt for quite a long long long time.

Just to set this ahead of time, my merit party is already set in advance:

Drg/Rdm
Whm/Blm
War/Drg
Pld/War
Mnk/War
Rdm/Brd

so that shoots down that argument.

As for 80% Acc being Good: If the damage stays on par with my other DD/SC partners, then yes it is. If it falls behind, then I need to find ways to make it up.

Rampage: I've macro'd in Str gear and done worse with it. I didn't have enough accuracy(and yes, when I do rampage, I am using sushi).

Double Attack: NOT the most important aspect, but would you reject having an enhancement to it if it is available? /Drg gives me the equivalent of a guaranteed Double Attack every 1:30.

Tanks: I won't tank with Nin's, they just can't keep hate. I have been called upon to main tank, and I still do it with /Drg. I have been called upon to backup tank with a War/Nin, and it went nice and easy, as long as I didn't keep any AF on other than my boots, because then hate usually became plastered to me. I've partied with many Pld's, and some are good, and some are bad. I respect the good ones who can keep hate off of me, and know how to use cover. The Bad ones, I give another shot after giving some tips on keeping hate, and if they still can't, then I don't party with them again. So far, I've only met one Pld with enough +enmity built into their voke and enough on their body to keep hate off of me, unless I opened with a WS.

War/Nin: Faster Attacks, Strong WS Post-55
War/Drg: Moderate Attacks, Moderate WS
War/Thf: Slowest Attacks, Strong WS
War/Mnk: Slowest Attacks, Moderate WS

So lets see:
I can go for 2 softer hits and 1 Strong WS
I can go for 1 harder hit and decent WS
I can go for 1 harder hit but slower TP gain and good WS
I can go for 1 harder hit and decent WS

Is that put simply enough for you?

Also, another note: Torama are NOT that hard to hit without sushi. Those have been the worst evasion mobs I've experienced thus far. And how is the higher levels harder when everyone preaches XP on VT-Low IT? Guess What, that's what I try to aim for all the time. Will I take IT-Flat to IT+, yes? But not my preferred XP mob.

Oh, and another note on War/Nin and rampage: Yes, it does add that extra hit, and the Str modifier is nice for the FIRST HIT which does .75. What about the other 4 (5 as War/Nin) 1.00 hits that don't have the modifier on them? And is 1 Strong WS always justified if, lets say as in the case I recently saw, your 2 axes are only dealing out about 28-50 damage a round when I can deal out 70-110? That's how it stays on par; your weaker hits and 1 strong WS balance out with my Moderate hits and Moderate WS.

Edited, Fri Jan 13 05:54:26 2006 by blz
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