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A guide to performing as a Warrior/DragoonFollow

#1 Jan 08 2006 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
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A guide to performing as a Warrior/Dragoon, or a Gax wielding War in general.

Disclaimer: While this is a suggested guide to leveling as a War/Drg, it is by no means the definitive guide. I am open to suggestions from the player community, and much of this information is from the community and my own experiences. I will give credit when there is something mentioned that I haven’t found or discovered on my own. Also, just because a piece of gear is mentioned doesn’t mean it is required, simply suggested. If I had my way, I’d suggest all +3 everything, but since not everything has a +3(yes, I said 3, not a typo), I’ll probably stick with the NQs. I will not be telling you how to time your jumps, as you should learn that from leveling Dragoon. This is all about gear, food, and to answer questions as best I can if asked. It is hopefully a living document, and will continue to grow and change from its current status(written from 3-4am).

First, let it be said, that to even consider this combination, you are going to have to have at least 1 job at or above level 30. My suggested leveling priority, in retrospect would be as follows: Warrior to level 18, Thief to 37, Unlock Dragoon, Dragoon to 37, Warrior to 37, Dragoon to 60+, Warrior to 60+. That is only for the War/Drg DD path, a potentially tanking War/Drg can do Mnk to 37 instead of Thf first, but it is option. Now, since that is out of the way, it does need to be said that War/Drg is NOT the best option at all times. I recognize this, and it is a combination that I use regardless, simply because I love it and can make it work. And while War/Drg does focus primarily upon the Gax, that is not an excuse to let your Axe fall behind! Let it also be said that a War/Drg is more exposed than a War/Mnk(no counter or dodge) War/Sam(no Third Eye) War/Thf 60+(No SATA) and War/Nin(No Shadows). It becomes much more important to watch your hate, and I find that this is best done by getting around 80-85% accuracy. It keeps your damage high and your hate relatively low so unless you start spamming hits and crits, you should be fine. All the same, War does have a tendency to take hate, and if you have a Pld, just run behind him for cover. I used to feel bad doing this, until I met 2 war/nin’s who do the same thing when they got more hate than they could safely blink away. It’s not cowardly, its about reducing downtime.

At lvl 18, from /Drg, you will gain no useful active or passive traits. At this point it is better to use either Thf or Mnk, depending on which you have leveled. I liked Thf, but I spent a lot of time soloing also, and Gilfinder was just wonderful for small XP and Farming combined vs. EP mobs. At lvl 20 however, you do gain an Attack bonus(not this does NOT stack with the inherrent lvl 30 War attack bonus), and a JA: Jump. Some people discard jump as mediocre, I have to say I love it. It’s a free hit every 1:30, and has as much chance to critical or DA as any other attack . It is quite effective with a Gax, and can be with an Axe to catch up on TP. From lvl 20-30, this is all that you gain. At lvl 30, you gain haste+5%, but this will cost you an equipment slot, and some time or gil, to receive the wyvern’s earring. Now, there is also another bonus, IF you can find it; The wyvern mantle. Def of only 2, but Attack+6, this is the highest Att+ back piece you can wear for quite a long time. From 30-60, you will gain NOTHING from War/Drg. This is when you really have to like using a Great Axe instead of an Axe. That haste and att+ make Gax into a slightly more damaging weapon, since it ups the DPS by subtracting 5% from your delay while leaving your TP gain intact. This is why I prefer haste over dual-wield(though war/nins and war/drgs will gain TP at about the same rate). It also needs to be noted that pre-rampage, a Great Axe will do just as much as, if not more than, any of the Axe WS’s, simply because they are rather weak until Spinning Axe. Yes, you can get good numbers out of Raging Axe, but don’t rely on them.

Great Axe also offers something that Axe doesn’t, and that is Party Versatility. Each of the Gax Break Weapon Skills makes a mob more susceptible to…well…death. Shield Break for –evasion, Armor break for –def, Weapon break for –att, but more on that later. Before I go any further I do want to say one more thing: Warrior/Dragoon is a FUN combination, but it will not fit every persons style of play. Just as I do not excel at War/Nin, some will not excel at War/Drg. Also, Warrior damage, as has been stated, does not change DRASTICALLY dependent upon sub-job. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Please, be a good warrior. Just because you prefer one style of play doesn’t mean you won’t be called upon to perform in another at times. If you really must choose subjobs to lvl, I’d suggest having Thief, Monk Ninja, and Dragoon at the bare minimum. This is also why I suggest taking Dragoon, or perhaps even Monk, to 60 first. It gives you a Set of AF completed, some Genkai’s done, and a way to farm more easily for gil to either raise a craft or level a sub-job like Ninja.

Important note: If you do not have a Wyvern Earring, chose another sub. This combination, while it is doable without one, gains no real benefits post-29 without it.

Eating for a Dragon
War/Drg, as has been stated, Excels at the Great Axe. The purpose of the combination is to make the Great Axe faster and more accurate, thus more lethal, at higher lvls. At Lower levels, pre-30, is simply adds some more att to a warrior’s potential Damage output. Now, the hard part about this is knowing what to eat. A lot of people will tell you to go with Sushi as soon as you have some viable accuracy gear, but what about before that? Happily, Great Axe does a good amount of damage, especially once you have berserk. Sadly, with the longer delay, when you miss with a Great Axe, you really feel it. From Levels 20-30, while some will preach Att foods, I’d say go for Acc: Jack-O-Lanterns. Accuracy+10, Evasion+10, it is a good food for DD and for avoiding some hits even though War is rather low on the evasive scale; as an elvaan war I fall somewhere between A midget trying to outrun a Mack truck and with my full DD(which has lots of –Eva) setup, a midget in a cement casket trying to dodge the water he’s already under. If you don't feel you need 10acc and still want some Att, Rice Dumplings are also good(not originally included because of the rarity of them on my server). That’s just how it is. I’d say stick with Jack-O’s until Level 34 at the earliest, when your first piece of Acc gear, the vernerer’s ring, comes into play, and as far as Lvl 40, when Woodsmans/Snipers are available. I’d say get the Woodsmans, because when you get hate, that –Def on the sniper’s hurts…a lot. I’d also suggest at lvl 40 a Tilt belt, another +5 Acc. The reason for this: Great Axe NEEDS Meat. I’ve noticed a lot of people saying Axe does just as much, if not more damage, than a Great Axe. A lot of the people I ask about this happily inform me they use the same build with both: lots of +att or +str, and Sushi. Gax SUCKS with Sushi. If I accidentally pop sushi(it’s happened before, popping a food mid-combat because I was the lower level in the party at the time and couldn’t afford the boost loss), I switch straight to my Axe. The Gax suffers too much damage loss to make it worthwhile.

Simply Said:
Great Axe = Meat
Axe = Sushi


Quote:
ArchangelLBC said: I'd recommend Rice Dumplings because you get 5 acc from them(and with those and your Neckchopper at 20 you shouldn't need more) and 20% attack boost.


What to Wear
Now, as a Warrior, we get a pretty wide range of gear to choose from. I believe it is best to learn from experience, so try out what gear works for you 20-30. A lot of people vouch chainmail…Through Pld War, and soon Nin Drk and Sam, I have never worn the lvl 24 chainmail. I absolutely loathe the appearance of it, and opt instead for something with stat bonuses, however mediocre they may be. There are some suggested items though(and look, they aren’t all ridiculously expensive).

Head: San d’Orian bandana. HP+6 AGI+1. A little more durability never hurts, and that Agi makes parrying a little easier.

Neck: Spike Necklace(Dex+3 Agi+3 Mnd-6) or Tiger Stole(Def 2 Att+5). Depends upon pocket and preference. I’ve tried both, and the Spike just performs much better.

Legs: Garrison Hose: Def 9 Str+1 Dex+1. nuff, said.

You’ll notice I don’t list the Leaping/Winged boots on there. There’s a reason: I’m trying to be realistic. I know I sure as **** couldn’t afford them when they were useful, so I am not including them. These are just my suggestions.

At Lvl 30, to make this combination worthwhile, at the very least you MUST have a Wyvern Earring. As already stated, it is haste+5%. If you can get a Wyvern Mantle, that’s great, but its not necessary, just nice.

From 30 on, you want to boost Acc and Att as much as you can. Expensive yes, but well worth it. The more Att you have, the more Defense penetration you get, the more the base damage of that Gax will count. And the more Acc…well, all the Att in the world is useless if you can’t connect.

Suggested Gear:
Lifebelt and Vanguards Belt. If you can get a Brd and get them to sing 2x Madrigal, the Vanguard is wonderful, Str+3 Att+5. Otherwise, keep your Lifebelt on once you have it.m

Walkure/Valkyrie Mask: You do know Att is important right? Well, MP really isn’t(unless using a Rune-Chopper, but that’s another point). I like the HP+15 on this, and it’s only 1 less Att than the Valkyries. Get whichever is cheaper, they are comparable pieces.

Spiked Finger Gauntlets: I love these, more than my AF. Expensive as **** to get admittedly, but well worth it. You lose some Str by using these over Gigas Bracelets or your AF, but you get to maintain Dex and add 12 Att without sacrificing any Acc(Unless replacing the chainmail acc gauntlets).

Party Versatility of the Great Axe
I’ll let you figure out the levels, but this is copied from this post(Can be found in the stickies)

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=4&mid=1091029167493433840&num=9

Shield Break
Skill Level: 10
Lowers enemy Evasion
Element: Ice
Strong against: Crabs, Crawlers, Mandies, Tonberries, Yagudos, Pugils, Lizard, Flies, Opo-opo, Beetles, Birds, Bees, Sea Monk, Scorpions, Spiders, Sabotenders (cactuars).
Immune: Skeletons, Gigas, Tigers, Sheep, Bombs, Ghosts.

Armor Break
Skill Level: 100
Lowers enemy Defense
Element: Wind
Strong against: Anticans, Worms, **** Bats, Mandies, Lizards, Dhalmels
Immune: Ahrimans

Weapon Break
Skill Level: 175
Lowers enemy Attack
Element: Water
Strong against: Sheeps, Orcs, Rabbits, Raptors, Manticores
Immune: Pugils, Crabs, Sahagin, Mushrooms, Crawlers, Scorpions, Quadavs

Full Break
Skill Level: 225
Lowers enemy Accuracy, Attack, Defense, Evasion
Element: Earth
Strong against: Coeurls
Immune: Worms, Anticans, **** Crawlers


Another Warrior(Baccayaro), did perform tests, and found Shield Break at higher levels to be approximately –40 Evasion. It is a safe assumption then that at the very least, the 3 primary breaks are the same for their respective stats, though I do not recall if their was any Data available on Full Break.

Utilizing the Great Axe is about making your party more effective. Yes, you can perform in Skillchains. Personally, I prefer parties with either No Skillchain, or those with enough Melee that you can use a Break Weaponskill and make the Skillchain more effective in that way. At my current lvl of 57, I love having Pld War/Drg War/Nin Drg/War. Armor Break and then Vorpal Thrust>>>Rampage for the Distortion is a very good combo, and it helps those Axe hits land harder, critical or not. I try to save TP each battle so I can open up with a Break and usually get back to 100% at about 50% Mob HP. Then it’s discretionary, either Sturmwind or Save again for next mob, depends on how quickly it’s dying. You rarely have to repeat breaks, if the effect lands, it tends to last the whole battle(I’ve seen one last about 5 Minutes on a mob that had wiped my PT due to a linkage from a mistargeted spell on the Blm’s part). It is nice to land big numbers, but this is a PT-based game; you aren’t a one man army. It is better to help take down the mob faster with teamwork than to try to take it down all by yourself.

The Big Metal Stick
Just a suggestion of Great Axes that you can use.

Lvl. 5: Butterfly Axe
Purchase it in Bastok Markets, The Dragon Claws, for about 750 gil
Lvl 8: Inferno/Hellfire Axe
If you can afford a hellfire, splurge away, otherwise the Inferno is just fine. Find either at the Auction house or a crafting friend.
Lvl 12: Great Axe
Purchase at Bastok Markets, Selbina or Jeuno for 4.5k. If your Server AH is cheaper, get it their, if not, NPC Shop it.
Lvl 16: Moth Axe
Auction House [Yes, please]
Lvl 20: Neckchopper
Get this. You’ll use it for awhile.
Lvl 25: Plantbane
Mandragora’s are plants, aren’t they? And this has extra fire damage on plants. A good buy. Auction House again.
Lvl 30: Centurions Axe
A big black stick of metal, find a generous friend with CP, if you are from Bastok, CP it yourself, otherwise buy it on the AH.
Lvl 37: Horror Voulge
Some Vit, Some Att+, and delay only 489. It rides like the wind.
Lvl 42: Raifu
Add Effect Lightning Damage. I liked this one, it proc’d a lot. You can hold onto it or upgrade at 44, but I kept mine.
Lvl 44. Heavy Moth Axe
The Str+3 is nice…the Dex-3 hurts my feelings.
Lvl 49: Gigant Axe
Good base Damage, +Str, -Int. Nothing wrong here.
Lvl 54: Executioner
Now, I’ll be honest, I like the Str+5, but I hate the Vit-5. Get it, use it, but if you can get the next
one(Rare/Ex drop only), then abandon this Axe asap.
Lvl 56: Schwarz Axt
3 more base Dmg, not +Str, but Nightime Acc+10. Contrary to popular belief, this cannot be liquified and given to your chocobo to give it hyper-speed, nor was it found at the bottom of a box of Cracker Jack™. It is still very nice.
Lvl 59: Hydro Chopper
Same Delay as the Heavy Darksteel, and if you equip Water Pumps, it can do some nice additional damage. If you can’t find one, just get the Darksteel, this one is nice, but nothing to wait for.
Lvl 62: Demon’s Axe
Now this is my baby, and I can’t wait until I can find one. Unlike the colossal, it does not have hp+10, and it is 1 less base damage. However, it is one more +str, 6 instead of 4, and it is faster, 504 vs 519. I plan to get this and use it ASAP, until the Pendragon’s if I can get it, or the Berserkers. This is as far as I’ve planned so far, and I’ll update this as I can.



The War/Drg Party Dynamic
So, what does it take to be a War/Drg? Oddly, this is the last part of this now being written since, after re-reading it, I noticed Archangel was right: I neglected to discuss just what a War/Drg's role is other than swinging his Great Axe. First, let's take a look at the 2 jobs involved.

Warrior: The master of melee versatility, with a wide array of hate generating skills, Warrior seems to be only limited by what gear they can afford and what subjob they choose.

Dragoon: A Heavy Melee DD. Yes, that is right, I said it. In parser after parser, even mediocrely equipped Dragoons are keeping up with Warrior Damage, and when you factor in their wyvern, are tending to exceed it by a decent margin. The shorter the party, the less true this is. Similar to War/Nin, Dragoon shines more at DoT with relatively quick consistent output, than in one hit big numbers(some exceptions such as Skewer do exist. I think of Skewer as a Dragoons Rampage).

So, what do we get from combining these jobs? From 20-30 there really is no difference. At this point, if you are tanking, it is just 10 extra attack and a jump, and if you are tanking, Monk is quite honestly better. Level 30+ however, is a different story. Warrior/Dragoon is about turning your Great Axe into a DOT-Spike Weapon. Now this seems like a weird term; How can something be both DoT and Spike simultaneously? Let's go through some math here.

A typical Great Axe delay is 504. At Lvl 30, the Dragoon subjob allows you to equip the Wyvern Earring. For those of you unfamiliar with it, this earring grants the effect of Haste+5%. No big deal right? Wrong. 5% of 504 is 25.2. For simplicity's sake, we'll just use 25. So, lets look at the numbers:

504-25=479. That's 479
Delay with most Great Axes!


And for those bigger Axes, the slow monsters with the 529 delay, you end up with a 26, so:

529-26=503.

What this means in simple terms is that, by sacrifing some a potential Stat boost in your earring slot, you are making your Great Axe swing faster than any other War/XXX combo, while gaining the full TP for the weapons Delay. With a 529, you will lag a little bit behind a properly equipped War/Nin, but with a typical delay Great Axe you will usually be right there on par, 1 hit behind or ahead of a Sushi eating War/Nin, while you are eating Meat. That settles the DoT aspect.

Now, for the Spike aspect.
As I mentioned before, Jump is a JA that you can fire every 1:30. 30 seconds slower than Sneak Attack, and it sadly is NOT a guaranteed hit. If hate is being managed properly in your party, this means you can WS and then Jump for that extra hit right after. Proper timing on it, usually a /wait 2 in your WS macro and then the /ja "Jump" <bt> line, will result in the attack firing off, often times faster than the animations.
This means in the 3 seconds in takes to perfrom a WS like Sturmwind, you just upgraded your 2-Hit Attack into a 3-Hitter. All 3 have a chance to Double Attack, and All 3 have a chance to Critical. There ya go, a Spike. While not guaranteed, neither is Rampage; I've seen it hit for some depressingly low numbers, and some decently high ones, though I've not yet witnessed a 1k breaking rampage.

Addressing another point Archangel brought up: When is it better to use a Break WS than a Stronger attack, such as Sturmwind or Raging Rush. This is all about what you want to do in the party. The first battle, you are obviously just going to be building up your TP...but when do you use it?

You don't. Not on that first mob. Break WS are best used at the START of a mob, and fighting that first mob without food will usually give you an idea of what WS will serve best. Doing this allows two things. Firstly, it will usually make your party run a little smoother: Evasive mobs are easier to hit, High Defense mobs are sucking up damage a bit more from that Defense Down, Hard hitting mobs are hitting you or your Paladin a little softer thanks to Weapon Break. All of this equates to less downtime. Also, by using a Break, followed by a Jump right at the start of a mob, that gives that dear little mob a Status Down and you 24% TP back if the Break and Jump both land and DA doesn't fire at all. That's 1/4 of the way back to your next WS.

ON VT SAVE THAT TP!
Opening every mob with an appropriate Break(when uncertain, use Armor, its really one of your best friends) makes them die that much quicker, gets you to the next one, and he next.

ON IT+
Fire Away! I can easily get out 2 WS and be almost ready for a 3rd by the time an IT+ mob goes down usually. When this is the case, you really have to use your discretion: Would another Break help this die faster, or would my WS take off more than the break is going to contribute for the HP left? If you have 100% again before the mob is less than 60%(It does happen, usually the result of DA chain-firing), Fire off a 2nd break. Armor Break + Shield Break makes things go very smoothly. If the mob is around 50% or less, then its Damage time. Sturmwind does put up nice numbers, so long as both hits land. Iron Tempest, while not as strong a WS as both hits landing with Sturmwind, is a good Distortion closer if that is what you are trying to do and only one other person has the TP for it. Keen Edge is very nice, again a 1hit WS, and a Critical Chance one, but when it lands its quite nice, I see mine land in the 180-300 Range when those criticals hit, that 300 often being the result of whether or not I ran Armor Break on the mob.

Now this is all up until 60. Post 60, things change a little bit(though not much). You now have your Bread and Butter, Raging Rush. Raging Rush is to the Great Axe Warrior what Rampage is to the Axe Warrior. Now it is true that you are lacking shadows, so you can't just spam it away whenever you want. You can, however, save up that TP WITHOUT it being wasted. How you say? Raging Rush damage had a TP modifier on it. Now I don't have the exact modifier on hand, and I don't feel like looking through the stickies to find it, but the more TP you have, the higher damage output you can produce. My current record on an XP mob is 990 followed by a 332 Jump(DA fired on the jump). That is a good chunk of damage. I had to run for cover, but it was worth it. Anyway, use the myriad charts and skillchain calculators available to find a good SC partner, and things should be gravy. My suggestions:

Dark Knight:
Guillotine>>>Raging Rush for the Fragmentation
Raging Rush>>>Guillotine for the Induration

Samurai:
Tachi: Yukikaze will also give you Fragmentation.

Warrior/Thf:
Raging Rush>>>SATA Raging Rush. Hard to deny the power here, so use it if you can, especially with a Paladin tank.

Building Your Party
This is where you need to be careful. It has been my experience repeatedly that any job with a high damage output simply CANNOT go all out with a Ninja Tank. I do not deny that Nin is a valuable and worthwhile Tank, I have simply not met enough who can keep hate off of me, as either War or Drg. In fact, from what I have been told by mages I party with recently, the preferred Nin-Tank setup is: Mage Mage Mage Nin Sam Mnk. Hey, if it works, that's great for them. Everyone likes Pajamas. Me, I'll stick some armor in front of me first, thanks. So, with that being said, the Tank of choice is obvious: Paladin.

Now, I'll be 100% honest. In a party I had last night, the War/Nin wearing his AF gloves and Boots, and me in simply the Boots, the Paladin COULD NOT keep hate off of us. And this is going through 2 different paladins. We were throwing out too much damage too quickly, and the only way the party managed to succeed at all was by use Dual tanking. He took a few hits, blinked them away, got hit, I yanked it off of him, took hits down to red, he took it back, Mages cured me back to about 75%, rinse and repeat. Once we finally stopped relying on a Paladin, we went from Chain 2-3s, to Chain 4-5s easily. So what does this mean? There are 2 ideal War/Drg Party Tanks: Paladin or 2x War/Nin. Each setup has a different necessary build, and I am going to give those right now.

The Paladin Party
This is one of my favorites.
Paladin
War/Drg
Drg/War
Thf/Nin
Rdm/-Blm/Whm/Smn
Rdm/-Blm/Whm/Smn

Your healer? The Redmages. The ARE Red Mages who will agree to this, if you can assure them it will work. What this combination gives you is this: A strong Tank with a good bag of hate-keeping tools on their own. A SATA, to plaster hate onto that Tank just a little better. and a SC, to keep things running nice and smooth. The War/Drg is going to be the puller, and so is most likely the initial SATA buddy. Just pop a Warcry or a Provoke and Defender when possible until that SATA goes off onto the Pld. Easy enough to do, especially if you have practice doing it as a Drg first.

Your role in this PT: Debuffer!
Armor Break, Armor Break, Armor Break somemore! Since Thf's hit a little softer and Drg/Wars are reputed as being "weak" DDs, make their life a little easier, and knock that mobs head around backwards so that they can hurt it! You are outside of the SC, which will be a Distortion variant obviously. Use this setup on VT-IT++ mobs, though I would avoid anything higher than IT+. It is just too slow on IT++ for my liking. Your goal with this party is to WS twice every battle: 1 debuff, 1 damage. Use your jumps and that nice little bit of haste to do this faster. And if the RDMs are willing, have them setup a haste cycle and haste the whole party. This may even let you get off 3 WS's instead of 2.

Some people will tell me that this setup has no nuker. I ask them if they are stupid. While it is true that a RDM can not burst as high as a Blm, 2 RDMs can put up the same or better damage as a single Blm burst, and the hate is spread over 2 players instead of all on one. This makes hate a little easier for the tank to keep while maintaining damage.

The Warrior Whomping
This is one of your strongest VT-Low IT combos, sacrificing nuking damage and even your break WS typically, in favor of faster kills.

War/Nin
War/Nin
War/Drg
Brd/Whm
Smn/Whm or Whm/XXX
Rdm/Whm

Your tank: The dual war/nins. Straight damage, all the same hate-keeping tools and enmity gear as you, with a faster attack speed. With 2 War/Nins, your place as a War/Drg is to safely deal damage. This works best 55+, when they have Rampage to call upon, and you can Armor Break to help those Rampages land a little harder, or try to be greedy and just go for your DD WS's. Having a Brd basically ensures you don't need to worry about Evasion, so Armor Break is your friend here if you decide to use it. I've also found Keen Edge to nail its higher end much more often with a Brd than without, and it does return slightly less TP to the mob, so I'd suggest using that followed by a nice Jump.

Why a Brd and a Rdm? Magic Finale has a very long recast time, so you have RDM for Dispel, and for Refreshing themselves and the Smn or Whm. On top of Mages Ballad I and II, this is a lot of MP returning, and with your tanks taking little to moderate damage, there should be very little downtime. This is also why Smn is preferable to Whm in this build: Healing can afford to be a little less(let the Rdm handle those big emergency cures if the situation arises). A summoner will then be a shared healer, and shared nuker with their summons. A SC I am rather found of: Axe Kick>>>>Sturmwind for Fragmentation.

Credit for this goes to Firebirdjim, a nice thread found in the Sticky that convinced me that Fragmentation is NOT a bad SC option.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=4&mid=109631347098541356&num=0

Rdm can burst it, if desired, or you can go around it entirely and just do whatever you chose with your WS if the Smn doesn't want to SC. A sidenote: This also does work with Megalith Throw(Titan), but Titan has HORRIBLE Accuracy. I watched a Smn try to land Megalith Throw unsuccessfully for about 2 and a half hours. It was a sad sad day, where I lost what little respect I had for Titan as being more than a Stoneskin whore.

Now, War/Drg will obviously work in other setups. When does War/Drg shine? Pre-Rampage, and I am hoping, Post-Raging Rush. When is it acceptable? Anytime you aren't being called upon to tank. Genearlly though, any party you can use a War in, you can use a War/Drg in. These two are just my preferred setups, allowing for Maximum output with minimal party danger and downtime. There are other setups without a doubt, and don't be afraid to try them and suggest them to me. If you can tell me how they worked, I will have no problem including them here.

So, what is War/Drg about?
Fun. This is a game, and we play it for fun. I have found I like this combo, as opposed to other combos such as Thf and Nin, because I like being Fast with a Big weapon. Not everyone will agree with me and I don't expect you to. This is a combo that can and does work, and when you are looking for a debuffer/DD to function outside of a SC, it is a wonderful thing to have. When you need a SC, or a tank(if that is what you prefer to do) please, do not use War/Drg. Gax does not seem very SC friendly sadly, and /Drg does not offer you any tanking abilities, just another hate-generating tool.

Just One More Note
I do want to thank all of the competent war's on this forum, who have questioned, but not insulted, my attempt at justifying a new subjob. I'd also like to thank all of the competent Pld's I've ever met, who understand that Cover isn't only for an erstwhile mage. And I'd like to thank everyone who rated up this thread, because I truly feared it would be knocked down as a joke and disappear from the board forever. Thank you.

Party Comparisons
Parsings from a Party, the focus on how War/Drg compares vs War/Thf. Great party, though I did spend 1 fight dead do to a very very long pull with a Torama that got lucky and Doubled Crit hits onto me 2 feet from camp. The range was 59-60 originally, ended 60-61 and 4.5ktnl 62(not bad for 3 hours). Anyway, the important part here is war/drg compared to war/thf.
Party Setup: Pld/War Brd/Whm Whm/Blm Smn/Whm War/Drg War/Thf
Camp: Labyrinth of Onzozo vs Goblins(VTlow-ITlow) and Torama(ITlow-ITflat)
War/Thf gear: Haubergeon, Walkure Mask, RK Legs, AF Feet, Enkelados Bracers, Assault Earring, Minuet Earring(Acc+3 with Minuet), Sniper's Ring, Venerer's Ring and eating: Sole Sushi
War/Drg gear: Haubergeon, Walkure Mask, RK Legs, AF Feet, Spiked Finger Gauntlets, Assault Earring, Wyvern Earring, 2x Woodsman's Ring and eating: Meat Chiefkabobs
Taken over the course of 36 fights of our party(meant to reset after a disconnect, and that always skews my parser information, so happy I saved before I went back in because I reset and forgot to start running it).

War/Drg:
Total Fights: 36
Average Damage: 1910.97
Average Percent: 44.38
Average Accuracy: 75.05

War/Thf:
Total Fights: 37
Average Damage: 1708.51
Average Percent: 42.88
Average Accuracy: 88.43

The War/Thf's extra fight was vs a Goblin Shepherd's Leech, no big deal, maybe 600-800 damage added on, not going to break the overall average.

The Overall numbers:
War/Drg:
Total Damage: 68795
Average Percent: 44.6%
Melee Damage: 47198
Skill Damage: 16382
Average Accuracy: 74.62%

War/Thf:
Total Damage: 63215
Average Percent: 40.98%
Melee Damage: 43067
Skill Damage: 20148
Average Accuracy: 86.62%

Now we worked together perfectly, berserk and aggressor always up at the same time, me opening and turning the mob off the pld, her plastering it back on and closing the sc with SATA RR(thus the higher skill damage). The damage differences meant that I had more than enough to turn it onto me 90% of the time(there were occassions when both of us went of whiff-fests and the damage wasn't high enough to turn it, but it was good none the less). We had equivalent accuracy, and she gained 12%(closer to my 10% estimate than others 15% gain, the numbers have been even closer with a Rdm landing Gravity, oddly, but no War/Thf's in those parties so no saved parses for it currently). The Haste I gained allowed me to be on par or exceed her for TP, which helped my WS damage without a doubt, helping to turn it to me so she could get the strong closer. And yes, I know Torama are resistant to thunder, but it was still extra damage to the mob(30-350) and hate plastered onto the Pld at the start of every fight.

Party Dynamics Two
The Great Axe Lover:
Pld/War
War/Drg
War/Thf
Whm/Blm
Brd or Rdm
Smn or Blm or other Melee DD

The dynamic here is easy. First fight, you do nothing but build TP. 2nd Fight, pop Berserk and Aggressor, plaster the mob onto the Pld right at the beginning with Raging Rush>>>SATA Raging Rush(Pop Warcry for this every time you can, as the War/Drg, to ensure that it turns. Should get it on you with RR Jump and Warcry, if not pop Voke and hope the SATA RR lands harder than the damage you just output. I got the mob locked onto me a few times, but thankfully with good support, even though it stayed on me, there was no downtime to speak of. This leaves the Blm or Rdm(if you have either) free to burst on the Fragmnetation chain. In the case of a 3rd Melee DD, it leaves them open to SC at 50% mob hp, by which time the War/Drg and War/Thf should already be back up to 100% and rising, to open for the next one. This is a decently fast way to lvl(did 60 to 4.5ktnl 62 last night in about 4 hours with Brd and Smn in the other slots). Raging Rush has no such thing as wasted TP, so building over 100% isn't a bad thing, and myself and the war/thf were usually in the 150%(War/Thf) to 200%(War/Drg) TP range when we differed greatly, more often than not, I was only 1 swing ahead(both using Heavy Darksteel Axes with 529 Delay).

Well, there go my numbers thus far. I don't expect any more updates until I can get a Demon's Axe to compare with my War/Thf partner who already has one, or at least a Massive Darksteel. With the lower Acc, it's important that I swing faster than her.

Is AF the Best?

You love your AF don't you? I know I love mine. HP, Str, Dex, increased double attack! And all at the price of a little more enmity. Sure, it's not that bad when you have a good tank, or if you are even tanking, whether it be single or dual. But are there other options? I love my AF, just like everyone else out there does, but let's face it, sometimes there are just better choices. This is just going to list a few that I've had and used, to much better results than the AF.

Head: Walkure Mask. Sure, the Dex increase from the AF is nice, but the Attack increase from this is, well...nicer.

Feet: Now the AF feet have stood tall and shined for a **** long time. I did try Feral for a little run, but seeing as it was nothing spectacular, I'm still drawn over it. If you want to add some more attack and aren't worried about losing some double attack, Feral/Tiger is good. If you want something that adds a little more Str instead of the Agility offered by the AF, then Coral/Merman's Leggings are wonderful. I'm still only in the Coral sadly, but if I could get a hold of Merman's...well, Str is always good.

Hands: Now, like I said, Str is always good. Enmity, however, isn't. Neither is -Dex, especially if you are an Elvaan like I am. For gloves, Spiked Finger Gauntlets performed wonderfully for me. So have Tiger/Feral Gloves, and most recently, Coral gloves. It feels a little odd to say this, but let's consider quickly:

Coral Hands and Feet vs. AF Hands and Feet
2 more Dex and 1 Less Str than AF, lower DA Proc rate.
More HP and Enmity than Coral, 1 More Str and 3 more Agility.


Maybe it's just me, but the Coral shped up better, even with the loss of Double Attack proc's.

Legs: And as has been said numerous times, RK Breeches are just better than the AF legs in most cases. Sure, the Acc increase from the AF is nice, but always remember, the enmity isn't.

Mini-guide to Warrior/Dragoon Tanking
For those who love the Warrior AF
1. Find a Good Support Team! Brd/Whm Rdm/Whm Blm/Whm is my preferred tanking support team. A good amount of MP to move around, some big emergency cures from the RDM or BLM to Divine Seal if needed, Bard can keep a regen song and an acc song on you at all times.

2. Save you TP! Build TP as quickly as you can on the first mob. Every mob after that, try to open with a WS followed by a Jump. This will help the mob die faster and also cement some hate onto you right after using Provoke.

3. Avoid Tanking with Axe and Shield in XP. While it is possible, you will usually not generate enough hate to keep the mob on you.

4. Invest in enmity+ gear. Do so carefully. If you can get some enmity on a ring or earring go for it, if its on a belt or other item, be wary as to its defensive and offensive bonuses and defects.

More General Tanking Suggestions

1.Create the following Macro:
/target <bt>
/ja "Jump" <bt>
/wait 2
/ja "Provoke" <bt>
/wait 2
/attack <bt>

Use this macro as soon as the mob is in range. Spam until Jump procs and then wait for the rest to follow.

2.Use Jump when TP is 0-12% or directly after a WS. In the first usage, it allows you to build TP faster while adding some hate as long as it lands. In the second usage, it adds another hit to your WS every 1:30.

Example WS Macro:
/ws "Shield Break" <t>
/wait 2
/ja "Jump" <t>

Replace WS with your WS of choice. Suggested Weapon skills(Use as obtained):
Shield Break
Weapon Break
Full Break

3. Eat for Offense, Gear for Defense. Meat Mith or Chiefkabobs have always netted me good results when tanking, regardless of subjob. Get some good heavy armor, but don't sacrifice defense in excess of 3 points to do so. Use Defender at all times once it is available.

Example of Armor Choices:
Lv. 40 Breastplate is good for Pld Tanking.
Lv. 40 Royal Squire's Chainmail is good for Warrior DD and Tanking.

4. Always use the Great Axe. While you can, in theory, XP tank with an Axe and Shield Combo, at higher levels you just won't be putting up enough damage to keep the hate. Make your life easier by using the Great Axe. It is, after all, your friend.

3 Man Light: The Other Light Meat
Now, if you have a job Lv. 65 or higher, you should've seen a Light SC performed. No, I don't mean Transfixion, I mean the Lv. 3 Quad Elemental True Light. True Light, or Light Lv. 3, is a beauty to behold. It can be bursted with Fire, Light, Thunder, and Wind, and it has a mirror damage potential. By mirror damage, what I mean to say is that a light SC can do the damage of the closing WS completely as its burst. If a Dragoon does Wheeling Thurst and a Thf closes with Shark Bite for 800, the Light SC may also land for up to 800. That is a 2 Man Light.

Now, 3 Man Light is a little bit harder to pull off, but for it's difficulties it does have it's benefits. First off, for 3 Man Light you can NOT be performing it with the regular 2 Man Light combination. That is simply wasting TP unnecessarily and negating the potential benefit of 3 Man Light. What is that benefit? 150% Skillchain Damage potential. Where as 2 Man Light can land the closing SC for Mirror Damage, 3 Man light can land the closing SC for Mirror Damage and 50% more. Let's use the case above again. Wheeling Thrust is an inherent Fusion, so it needs a Fragmentation opener to make True Light.

Guillotine>>>Raging Rush=Fragmentation.
well, there we go, that's a perfectly good and damaging SC, utilizing 2 Strong WS's, right?
Now, let's add on Wheeling Thrust.
Fragmentation>>>Wheeling Thrust=True Light!

Let's say that the Wheeling Thrust landed for 400. Well, the resulting Light SC now has the potential to land for up to 600 damage! This is the potential of a 3 Man Light. The Stronger your closer, the better 3 Man Light has a chance to be, so look for it where and when you can, especially if you are short on nuking mages!

Full Breaking for Hate(But not on You)
2 and 3 Man Light was discussed above. And of course, there is also 2 and 3 Man Darkness, True Darkness, Dark Lv. 3, or however else you want to call it. This SC tends to get ignored a bit more often, but I did find one decent use for it. Full Break is already a very useful WS, lowering mob Evasion, Accuracy, Armor, Evasion, and Attack. All those debuffs rolled into 1 good WS. So how could it be even better, you ask?

As a Hate Control tool.

By the time you have Full Break, you should notice that Pld's(Good ones at least) are managing to have TP! Maybe not every battle, but often enough that they can actually participate in a SC. So, keeping that in mind, here is a nice way for you to brighten up a Pld's day while making his life a little easier.

Full Break>>>Swift Blade!

Those Lv. 3 SC's tend to generate a LOT of hate for the closer. Letting the Pld close, and being willing to sacrifice a bit of your damage to land the Debuff and hate control is never a bad thing. This works excellently with an AM Happy Blm, also. The Darkness chain with the regular Pld hate building tools is usually enough to keep the enmity on them, even if the Blm goes and lands a nice 1500+ burst. And since you are sacrificing some Damage(Raging Rush) for a SC and hate control, you may as well have a BLM, RDM, **** even a Drk or Nin, burst away on it if they can. Anyways, nothing huge, just something I thought I'd include, since it's saved my **** quite a few times now.

Future Updates:
High Jump: What good is it?
as well as potential equipment updates(Thick Gear on the approaching horizon).

Edited, Mon Jan 9 13:16:09 2006 by blz

Edited, Mon Jan 9 13:17:25 2006 by blz

Edited, Tue Jan 10 23:35:16 2006 by blz

Edited, Mon Jan 30 01:36:21 2006 by blz

Edited, Mon Jan 30 01:44:41 2006 by blz

Edited, Tue Jan 31 02:34:30 2006 by blz

Edited, Tue Jan 31 02:44:49 2006 by blz

Edited, Tue Jan 31 02:46:52 2006 by blz

Edited, Wed Feb 1 11:33:30 2006 by blz

Edited, Wed Feb 1 15:33:31 2006 by blz

Edited, Mon Feb 6 07:25:48 2006 by blz

Edited, Wed Mar 8 12:38:35 2006 by blz

Edited, Wed Mar 8 12:37:48 2006 by blz

Edited, Fri Mar 17 16:00:40 2006 by blz

Edited, Jul 18th 2006 at 11:55am EDT by blz
#2 Jan 08 2006 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmmmm I was thinking about this cobination aswell.I currently Have Warrior to 32,Dragoon to 43,Paladin to 43 and Monk to 23
(Yea I cant really decide what to take to end game status)

I really would like to try to go endgame with War/Drg seeing As how /Mnk doesnt offer much unless you tank (Dodge,Boost<---More dmg to keep hate)Focus seems good but Dragoons Acc Bonus seems better.

War/Nin doenst interest me seeing as how everyone and their Grandmother jumped on the /nin bandwagon plus if I wanted to tank Id be a Paladin(Yes I under Nin and Pld are both useful depending on situation)I just enjoy it more.I know War/Nin is also more A DD than a tank but I wouldnt Give up my G.Axe for the WORLD!(Yea Im weird like that >.>)

War/thf seems ok but I wouldnt like giving up overall dmg for a A 1 hit spike dmg move(Sneak Att)

War/Sam seems fun for tp spaming and straight DDing but its just not my style although im sure It would be a great combo

War/mage -.- not thanks!

War/Drk would be mediocre it would be better to just be Drk/War

War/Pld same as above-Although Im sure War/Drk or Pld could be useful in rare situations

...I guess Im done Im sure Ill get flamed by some one who has the i.q. equivalent of my shoe size but I dont give a F***
sue me its just a game.

Edited, Sun Jan 8 17:52:01 2006 by Critius
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#3 Jan 08 2006 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Grab the Wyvern Earring, your favorite Gax, and go to it! I started War/Drg myself at Lvl 30 honestly(the possibility pre-wvyern earring, while there, was of negligible benefit, and I had Dragoon to a rather modest level before the earring was introduced). It is a fun way, and it is NOT gimped. I have had people tell me it is a dangerous sub that offers less utility; its true, it doesn't have focus, nor does it have shadows. It just has an extra attack. But sometimes, that's all you need.
#4 Jan 09 2006 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
War/thf seems ok but I wouldnt like giving up overall dmg for a A 1 hit spike dmg move(Sneak Att)


I can't for the life of me figure out this statement. Care to explain?
#5 Jan 09 2006 at 12:55 AM Rating: Default
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Hmm, in my mind this combo seems ludicrous.

But then again, I used to be war/thf and swore I'd NEVER sub nin.

...now I feel stupid, and wonder why anybody bothers subbing post post 55(save for the Steel Cycrone w/ Fuidama)
(Yeah RR is powerful, but on my server, you will NEVER get an invite as /thf...and no offense but its hard to get ppl to pt with you, if they see a war/thf invite them to exp, I've seen ppl decline invite)

Odd though, I was once the /thf advocate. Now I'm /nin advocate.

I might try /drg for fun post 70(for dynamis, I wnana see the tp bonus off of my barone gears...break ws spam? Lets hope ^_^)
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#6 Jan 09 2006 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Is this a guide to war/drg or a guide to greataxe?
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Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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#7 Jan 09 2006 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Like it says up top, Archangel, its both. War/Drg is all about the Gax, so its hard not to be informative about the Great Axe, which so many wars on my server seem to neglect. I do want to update this more as people have things they would like to add, but I can't think of anything else to say about it just now since I am only at 57.
#8 Jan 09 2006 at 5:20 AM Rating: Good
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Well you have the greataxe part down ok(though I would prefer if you went more into just what situations its more beneficial to use a break instead of using Sturmwind or Raging Rush).

The war/drg part though seems to be "You get these items and these JTs at these levels, have fun". Some of the information seems odd to me, some of it incredibly contradictory, and some is just flat out wrong. Your food section says "Greataxe == meat" but recommends jackolanterns. I'd recommend Rice Dumplings because you get 5 acc from them(and with those and your Neckchopper at 20 you shouldn't need more) and 20% attack boost.


In general though the war/drg part of the guide seems REALLY lacking. If I'm to sub drg, where might I best use it instead of other subs(I don't accept the "I prefer this sub more and **** the fact that this other sub is the better sub" line of thinking).

____________________________
Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#9 Jan 09 2006 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you Archangel, I agree with you that the War/Drg part was severly lacking, and that has been rectified. If you could point out to me which parts you find contradictory or confusing, I will try to clarify them, as this really is my first attempt at writing a guide, and I would rather have to try rewriting repeatedly than to have it be mis-informative.

As for the Jack-O-Lantern recommendation, I really do forget about Rice Dumplings quite often, simply because whenever I wanted them they weren't in stock. Reading through the whole section, the rule of thumb is that with a Great Axe you want to use meat, and I only suggested Jack-O-Lanterns from Lvl 20-30 if you are having Acc issues. Some people just arent happy with anything less than 90-95% Acc, and being a former Drg, it was hard for me to adjust to an 80-85% ratio. I will be adding a more indepth look at the foods to use as I go on, sinec there are many good options out there, I just need time to research and try them all out.
#10 Jan 09 2006 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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I think this would be a fun option around 70-ish personally. That's when the sub's power really comes into fruition with Jump, High Jump, and an Accuracy Bonus. Yes, overall other subs might be better, but i'd be willing to be this would be pretty **** in exp parties as well.

That's the beauty of WAR, we can make use of A LOT of subjobs. XD
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BLM 40, WHM 37, SAM 37, RNG 37, RDM 37, BRD 37,
MNK 35, BLU 23, SMN 12, BST 11, PUP 01, COR 01
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#11 Jan 10 2006 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed, it would finally come into its full potential at lvl 70. Better than lvl 74 for war/nin IMO, for reaching full potential that is.
#12 Jan 10 2006 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah but I do so much more exping post 74 than I ever did pre 74 =P


Never having to seek helps with that I guess. But those 10k merits add up quick.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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#13 Jan 10 2006 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll have to wait to see how it works then. I'm somewhat amazed I haven't even gotten rated at all for this, good or bad...I'm not sure what to make of that, but it worries me.

Was the rating system changed? I just realized im not seeing numbers on any posts 0.0

Edited, Tue Jan 10 06:24:13 2006 by blz
#14 Jan 10 2006 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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k I'm bored so I'll nitpick on critius post XD

Quote:
War/Nin doenst interest me seeing as how everyone and their Grandmother jumped on the /nin bandwagon plus if I wanted to tank Id be a Paladin(Yes I under Nin and Pld are both useful depending on situation)I just enjoy it more.I know War/Nin is also more A DD than a tank but I wouldnt Give up my G.Axe for the WORLD!(Yea Im weird like that >.>)

Depends what lvl.
WAR are awesome tanks endgame, and potentially awesome tanks in exp.
Being main DD while tanking the mob is really really effective for your exp =).
Depends where, you don't have to give up g.axe as WAR/NIN. At 70 there's rune chopper which is useful for many situations. Never sold mine.
(It's Haste+9% Acc+5 at the cost of 3 MP/tick, which is easily compensated by refresh).
It actually out did Francisca/Joyeuse for me at 70. as /NIN, yes I was tanking, that's why /NIN.

Quote:
War/Sam seems fun for tp spaming and straight DDing but its just not my style although im sure It would be a great combo

More or less ballista sub,but fun to have.

Quote:

War/mage -.- not thanks!

Actually WAR/WHM is one of the best tanks for CoP wyrms, endgame that is.
Quote:

War/Drk would be mediocre it would be better to just be Drk/War

Agreed. It's useless. :P

Quote:

War/Pld same as above-Although Im sure War/Drk or Pld could be useful in rare situations

Meh. Pseudo PLD for some fights...may as well just sub WHM and use Curaga since you'd prolly use that for wyrms or something you can't(or not allowed to, TP spam) damage(and thus tank as /NIN)

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#15 Jan 10 2006 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Good Post
I'll definitly be thinking of it when the time comes to level my WAR again.
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#16 Jan 10 2006 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Very nice guide. I fail to see how Great Axe's accuracy sucks, and how it sucks with Sushi though. Other than that, very nice.
#17Varunius, Posted: Jan 10 2006 at 12:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Step 1: Shut off PC, not properly, just unplug the ****
#18 Jan 10 2006 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I fail to see how Great Axe's accuracy sucks, and how it sucks with Sushi though


I don't recall saying Great Axe accuracy sucks, if you could tell me what gave you that impression so I could edit it, that would be wonderful.

Now, for the point about sushi, and I was actually discussing this with a war/nin friend of mine last night. Axe and Gax are two different weapons; they calculate damage differently. I won't go into our full discussion on this, because it was about 2-1/2 hours of theorizing, discussing experiences, different builds and such, but what it boiled down to is this:

Axe gains damage more easily through +Str than +Att. His 2 hits with Axe equal my 1 Gax hit without foods on too weak mobs. It's just harder to push Axe up for Defense penetration using Str, we believe it may be something about the base damage curve formula.

With that in mind, Great Axe functions more like a blunt weapon than a bladed weapon. Adding Att minimized the surface area making contact, and thus more defense penetration is gained. Real World Example: It is easier to knock a whole in ice with a pick than with a hammer, the pick has the greater penetration.

The reason Great Axe sucks with Sushi? You are picking up accuracy and sacrificing damage. Every time I have eaten sushi with my Great Axe I have immediately lost 50% if not more of my overall damage output; this has been true on mobs from EM-IT+. Sushi makes my Great Axe hit like a 1handed Axe; for the extra accuracy it simply isn't worth it.

The solution? Don't use Sushi. Proper utilizatoin of Aggressor and Shield Break, and your PT setup at times will help greatly in maintaining your accuracy at a reasonable level, without sacrificing damage from Acc foods. Bard, you get Madrigal, Red Mage you get Gravity which, when unresisted, is -10 Evasion. I love Gravity, and when I play Rdm it is the first spell I cast. -10 Evasion is the equivalent of giving you another +10 Acc piece; how can that be bad?

If you don't believe me, or have experienced something different with your Great Axe, please give me examples, and I will run the test myself when I have the chance.
#19 Jan 10 2006 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
Blz I think the passage people are talking about is in the Eating For a Dragoon paragraph

Blz wrote:
Happily, Great Axe does a good amount of damage, especially once you have berserk. It’s Accuracy however, leaves something to be desired, and that longer delay is a bit of a pain. From Levels 20-30, while some will preach Att foods, I’d say go for Acc: Jack-O-Lanterns. Accuracy+10, Evasion+10, it is a good food for DD and for avoiding some hits even though War is rather low on the evasive scale


As ArcangelLBC stated from 20-30 with a neckchopper (and even past that) Rice Dumplings give a pretty good Accuracy bonus while still granting an Attack bonus.

Other than that nice guide, I would love to see it refind as you continue to level. Some comentary on its use Endgame would also be nice. While it may not be the best Verses HNM's and Gods I would imagine it would outperform /THF in Dynamis where getting a mob to sit still for a SA or SATA is less than easy.
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#20 Jan 10 2006 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Edit on that: Changed it to what I really meant to say(this is why you don't right guides early in the morning), and included Rice Dumplings as a 2nd choice.
#21 Jan 10 2006 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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I'd suggest not recommending anything for endgame till you're there.



Dynamis sub is a given because you can sub just about anything in dynamis. It doesn't really matter.
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#22 Jan 11 2006 at 1:00 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The reason Great Axe sucks with Sushi? You are picking up accuracy and sacrificing damage. Every time I have eaten sushi with my Great Axe I have immediately lost 50% if not more of my overall damage output; this has been true on mobs from EM-IT+. Sushi makes my Great Axe hit like a 1handed Axe; for the extra accuracy it simply isn't worth it.


This guide has some issues.

1) Food choice: Don't limit yourself to ATK food only because you want to hit for more damage using Gaxe. ATK food is acceptable if you are EXPing on VT or less. ACCURACY is still king and sushi has it's place even though I see more and more ppl refusing to use sushi because of the higher prices.

2) GAxe and skillchains: There is nothing wrong with Gaxe making skillchains if you are bold enough to sub /DRG then you might as well be bold enough to make Impaction, Scission, Fusion or Fragmentation using Gaxe. Everytime I read someone saying Gaxe is bad for skillchaining it's only because they can't break away from making Distortion.

3) Opening Shield Break or other Break WS doesn't work on everything.

Here's a site that shows what does work.
http://www015.upp.so-net.ne.jp/reaver/monster.html

4) If you are only doing WAR/DRG for the accuracy and 5% haste then it's no different than being /THF using sushi and getting haste from a RDM or WHM is it?

5) I have been hearing about WAR/DRG for a while now. However, you are the first to take WAR/DRG in EXP PT this far. Most of the /DRG testing at Lv.70+ are outside of EXPing situations. Many reporting good alternative to /NIN at Lv.74+ for things other than EXPing, especially when you are not expected to tank or backup anyone.

6) Lastly, I like to remind everyone subjob doesn't make us into what we are today. It's the skill at playing the job. For a long time now, both Alla and KI forums advocates mainly /NIN and that only help produce that current wave of noob WAR/NINs at Lv.75 that dunno how to tank, voke on adds, etc. Turning every other thread into "what axe combo to use" or be "best DD" at endgame is a sad sight.
#23 Jan 11 2006 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Archangel: Agreed, I am only speaking up to where I have been thus far. As I gain levels and experience, this will be edited and grow.

Darkhaze: Accuracy is necessary, yes. That is why you carry accuracy in your gear, NOT in your food. The damage of Great Axe suffers to the point with Sushi that it is simply not worth using. Eating meat isn't about hitting more MORE damage, its about keeping your Damage on Par with those 2 axe swings of a War/Nin while maintaining reasonable accuracy, 75-90% on VT-IT+ mobs. Since my Typical XP mobs are Low IT-IT flat, around 85% accuracy is what I get using 2x Woodsmans Rings, RG collar, and a Lifebelt, without any other acc gear, and the residual effect from the Dex of the RK armor. With that accuracy, pre-rampage it was a rather easy matter to surpass War/Nin damage output, post-Rampage I can stay on par, sometimes falling a little behind(My Great Axe is still only 77 Base atm, time for an upgrade, but need more levels for that).

Secondly, I do intend to include Skillchains, but my list is incomplete and untested for effectiveness: I will list Fragmentation Skillchains, and others, as I find them, but I have not been asked to find SC's very often as of yet, so it is something I've neglected to some degree. It also helps that I don't too much mind using Iron Tempest to close Distortion when the mages really want that.

Point 3: Another Warrior already has that information, and I included it in this guide. It is actually right there, all out, just in plain english instead of a text chart to read. My favorite thing about it: Armor Break works on **** near everything. However, I may cross-reference the previous war's information with the website you gave to see if it agrees everywhere.

What's more, it is different from being /Thf and using Sushi, because as stated, Gax suffers with Sushi. If anyone can perform tests in XP party and show me somewhere that Gax doesn't suffer with Sushi vs Meat, then I'll be happy to include those situations, but in my own testing(1-3 mobs when popping sushi with Great Axe each party), it's not worth it. I can outdo my own Great Axe damage with a single 1handed Axe as War/Drg, so what is that War/nin doing to my damage output? Raping me, thats what. What's more, what if a War/Drg and a War/Thf both get a Whm or Rdm haste? There ya go, /drg is faster again.

And to your last point: I agree with you, subjob doesn't make the job, but I have had other war's ask me why I do /drg(other melee in general in fact), and the reasons I have given them have made them stop bothering me about it thankfully; I am just answering it now in a public forum instead of 1 on 1.
#24 Jan 11 2006 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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A long time ago, in the days of meat when people got by with just acc gear, 70% hit rate was acceptable, and even considered good. Rngs were king at this time because they had tons of racc gear and tons of acc bonuses.


In todays world this is not the case. In today's world, anything less than an 80% hit rate is frankly unacceptable, even more so from 2 handed weapons, and 85-90% is considered the normal on mobs that aren't known for being evasive.


For a party where you will be skillchaining, this will bear out even more true because your skillchain partner will have TP long before you do.


Shield break to some extent solves this problem, as does aggressor, but is by no means definite. Fact is that any melee DD that eats sushi at 60 is automatically packing +30 acc from their food, and most of the smart ones will put on at least another 20 more. This causes problems for the meat eater because while its not hard to get 30 acc from gear, its quite difficult to get 50 acc from gear. At least at level 60.

Shield Break is the godsend of the meat eating greataxe user. And back in the day greataxe was actually really good from that aspect, and war/sam especially was king because you could shield break, meditate to 100%(before the TP nerf), and be ready to skillchain(which also by the way put SAMs out of a job).

In a sushi era, meat users have a LOT of catching up to do, and in alot of cases, if you're shooting for the absolute best exp possible, sushi can dominate to an absurd degree.
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#25 Jan 11 2006 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Archangel, I agree entirely. Now, to give another reason why War/Drg has potential:

Drg Acc Trait: 10
Lifebelt: 10
2x Woodsmans Ring: 10
RG Collar: 4
Hauby: 10
Assault Earring: 2
CC Boomerang+2: Situational +4

46 Acc. Solid
50 Acc. Situational

I'd prefer a Tiphia Sting, but I'll stick with my Crossbow once it's capped.
[Meat][Yes,please.]
#26 Jan 11 2006 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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BLZ,
In a skilled EXP PT that is willing to work around you then you are in luck. In the perfect world, a theory such as your works. However, you are walking a hard path because being different and making something works is vastly different from being effective or even efficient.

As Archangel stated, in an above average EXP PT, 85-90%ACC is normal. If you really want to push even 80%ACC is fine but not less.

1) Using ATK food, I'll lose the obvious 15% accuracy. No IFs or BUTs, you just lose that much. Thus far, only MNK and WAR/NIN using Ridill can overcome 80-85%ACC using ATK food and still maintain similar DoT or more compare to sushi. I highly doubt a WAR/DRG will be the exception here.

Your argument for ACC gear + ATK food isn't anything new. This 3+ year-old game that spent it's first 2-years without sushi. If you don't believe JPN tested this long before you, then at least trust the PC players from NA release.

2) ACC = DoT and this is especially true in a standard 3-melee, 3-mages setup. You are not fooling anyone by hitting the mob hard per swing but falls behind in TP gain for skillchain or weapon skill spam.

I run parsers often enough to see if any melee is having a great time missing IT mobs with 60% or less ACC. Guess what, it's always the meat/ATK food user with such bad accuracy and also has the lowest DoT. This still happens often in my Lv.40s, and 50s parties. I'll admit it's hard for a WAR/XXX to be this bad in accuracy but this is not uncommon among other melee jobs that doesn't have aggressor.

3) Gear ACC isn't the same as sushi accuracy. You can load up on 50-gear ACC all you want. You'll be lucky to see 80%ACC on IT mobs. When you are EXPing with sushi user that can push for 90%, your merely 80% will leave you way behind in skillchaining. Is it really bad? No, but you will be slowing down the party. Of course, this is assumnig you care about the party being efficient.

Lately there has been a lot of these be different job combination threads. It's all fine and good when you are in a party with skill players that are willing to try something different but that doesn't mean it's the most effective/efficient option you have.

Making something work and making something work efficiently is two different animal.
#27 Jan 11 2006 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone likes Pajamas. Me, I'll stick some armor in front of me first, thanks. So, with that being said, the Tank of choice is obvious: Paladin.


Amen brother!

Heh... anyways... to be ontopic...

I did War/Drg 30-50, then swapped to /Mnk, for Aggressor/Focus spamming... was going to swap back to /Drg at 60, when it gives Accuracy up trait, and Haub to cover those days when you wear your blindfold into battle...

I like the "/wait 2 Jump" suggestion, will have to implement that into my macros
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#28 Jan 11 2006 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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ArchangleLBC

Sorry did not want to imply the WAR/DRG was the best choice in dynamis, just suggesting that as BLZ get further along he look into cover end game uses of the sub.

BLZ

Something to think about if you are set on meat is Hedgehog Pie which give +18% Atk as well as +5acc. I doubt you will be able to get to a point that your acc matches Sushi eaters however. On the other hand damage with sushi for great axe does leave a bit to be desired. Try parsing both meat and sushi some time to compare both damage and accuracy. If the loss of acc is more than made up for by the higher damage then it could be worth it.
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#29 Jan 11 2006 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys who are saying "use food that give att and +5 acc to make up for not useing sushi" need to realize somthing. In no way shape or form can pure acc beat percentage acc that sushi gives. I am a 73 drg and sub war. With sushi I can maintain a 90 percent + acc rateing with a mere 22 acc in gear (the rest focused on pure str and att). When I switched to Courel subs and straped on full acc equip my acc was +44 (+ 54 if you count ther drg acc bonus which may or may not be gimped when subbing. Not sure it traits take a cut or not). My acc percentage droped about 10 percent. I even went and got back my on loan second sniper's ring which boosted me another +5 acc and it still was horrible.

With acc gear and bonus I was pushing +60 acc and hitting like **** compared to +22 acc gear and sushi. I am covinced that no ammount of raw acc can touch the percentage sushi gives you.

Just my 2 gil

#30 Jan 11 2006 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry if this has been asked before but i was curious how much TP jump and high-jump give from /drg?

and if anyone knows what TP returns from jump/high-jump with Barazone (sp?) chest macroed in.

Edited, Wed Jan 11 15:56:11 2006 by JoeSmoeTwo
#31 Jan 11 2006 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, addressing this 1 by 1.

JoeSmoeTwo: /Drg jumps return the associated TP of your weapon, 12-13 with a Great Axe, 7-8 with an Axe(the higher numbers sometimes from the .x of a weapons TP gain). Barone adds 1 more TP per jump. I am not the one who has tested this, I am just speaking from what overs have tested and shown. If you check the Drg forum, I believe someone ran a full experiment...but good luck finding it, spam city over there.

Aspidelaps: When I was a Drg, I tested the same thing. Not only was my Acc ridiculously high with sushi, but my damage actually increased per hit. Potentially a fluke, but who the hells knows, that's how it was and continues to be at times when I get back onto my lance-bearing job.

Losttroll: While I do not have it on record anymore, I have run the parser and temp-logged to reset it after checking results. Sushi I gained 10% accuracy, but sufferd a 50% damage loss. 10% Accuracy is not, and never will be, worth 50% damage in my opinion. I'll try to run it again tonight perhaps on EM-T mobs with a friend watching my back. As for hedgehog pie: I'm still wary of it, mostly because of the price which has been shooting up much higher than I am willing to pay for a disposable item.

Darkhaze: You experience a 15% loss, my experience is usually 10% accuracy loss. As stated above, this is for a 50% damage increase. Even with a 15% loss, 50% more damage is worth it. With my supposedly low accuracy, I am usually on par, 1 hit behind, or 1 hit ahead of my SC partner, regardless of what job they are. If a party can't wait 1 attack round to get off a SC, then I really don't want to be there with those impatient people, because chances are I'll lose more XP than I gain. Of course, rather than parse it, I would like someone else to if they would be so good, would help in not giving potentially biased information.
#32 Jan 11 2006 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Just to clarify the barone gear TP return, I am a 74 DRG with Barone feet that give the TP Bonus. With a regular lance attack I receive 12 tp. With Jump and High Jump that tp turns into 14. That is with drg main obviously, and the 1 tp may be with drg sub. Just thought I would clarify that for anyone interested.

Edited, Wed Jan 11 18:42:09 2006 by sblackey

Edited, Wed Jan 11 18:42:46 2006 by sblackey
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#33 Jan 11 2006 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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I swear to God if this turns into another meat/sushi debate heads are going to roll.


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the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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#34 Jan 12 2006 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Darkhaze: You experience a 15% loss, my experience is usually 10% accuracy loss. As stated above, this is for a 50% damage increase. Even with a 15% loss, 50% more damage is worth it. With my supposedly low accuracy, I am usually on par, 1 hit behind, or 1 hit ahead of my SC partner, regardless of what job they are. If a party can't wait 1 attack round to get off a SC, then I really don't want to be there with those impatient people, because chances are I'll lose more XP than I gain. Of course, rather than parse it, I would like someone else to if they would be so good, would help in not giving potentially biased information.


Unequip your ACC gears or fight IT+ and that 15% accuracy lost would be a lot more obvious.

I'm sorry for turning this into a sushi/meat argument. Do as you wish because you'll learned and discover this on your own.
#35 Jan 12 2006 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I swear to God if this turns into another meat/sushi debate heads are going to roll.


Been awhile since I had one of those.

Here, I'll get the ball rolling.

Meat > Sushi

Ok, we ready? GO!
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#36 Jan 12 2006 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would I unequip my Acc gear? Even at times when I do use Sushi(1 hand Axe only) I keep my Acc gear on. Lower damage means I need more hits to make up for it. As far as IT+; if the pt wants to fine. I'll still not use sushi. Oh, and the parsing is done, by the way.

Mobs: VT-It Hi Defense Crabs in Cape Terrigan
Party Setup:
Pld War Sam Drg Rdm Whm

Food results 1: Meat Chiefkabob, 19 fights
25631 Damage 71.57% Accuracy

Food results 2: Sole Sushi+1, 19 fights
23197 Damage 82.88% Accuracy

Using Sushi, a Drg had the same damage as I did. Using Meat, Dragoon + the just over 2k damage from his Wyvern kept us equal to just my Great Axe damage. This was a 6k an hour PT, and I made my lvl midway through, so my Sushi results may be higher, since they ended up with a higher skill after a few fights and an assault earring adding to the acc.
#37 Jan 12 2006 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Meat > Sushi

Ok, we ready? GO!



Awesome. I'll stop the ball rolling.


You're wrong.
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the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


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If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#38 Jan 12 2006 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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ArchangelLBC wrote:
Some crap


Can I just dig up that old thread and copy and paste my posts? I don't really feel like putting forth any real effort.

These other guys seem real enthusiastic about debating this though. I bet this will get entertaining. >_>
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That's one more kid that will never go to school,
never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.
#39 Jan 12 2006 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can I just dig up that old thread and copy and paste my posts? I don't really feel like putting forth any real effort.

These other guys seem real enthusiastic about debating this though. I bet this will get entertaining. >_>




Not putting forth any effort is why I didn't want the debate to take place once again in the first place. Which is also why I just went with "You're wrong" instead of going into idiotic details about situational use and blah blah kill me now.

Tell you what, lets just sit back and let the pointless debate go forward. If they are that enthusiastic about it, we can let em get it out of their system before we let heads roll.


Sound good?
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#40 Jan 12 2006 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I had to rate this guide down, I don't see much application for /drg in this game as a warrior, especially in xp situations. Past 60, sushi is prominent because it really is so good, favoring dual axes. If you are using a g.axe, /thf is going to be preferable so that you don't get killed when pulling off a high dmg raging rush.
#41 Jan 12 2006 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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had to rate this guide down, I don't see much application for /drg in this game as a warrior, especially in xp situations. Past 60, sushi is prominent because it really is so good, favoring dual axes. If you are using a g.axe, /thf is going to be preferable so that you don't get killed when pulling off a high dmg raging rush.


I hope you at least read the guide before rating it down. Even if only from 20-30, there certainly is an application. 30-60, It allows you to keep up your great axe damage without so many hate spikes and pulling as Sneak Attack will give you. I'd call that an application(though I am only 58 thus far).

Personally, I just don't like sushi that much, especially not at 150k-180k a stack for the one I use. Also, when using a Great Axe, yes, /thf is preferable, with a SC closer. I haven't gotten to 60 yet, so I don't have raging rush, but once I do I will be looking for Pld/War War/Drg War/Thf for the RR>>>SATA RR SC onto the Pld.
#42 Jan 12 2006 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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150K-180K a stack! OMGWTFBBQ!!!;_; What the **** are you eating? That is over twice the price of Sole on Pandy (ok haven't bought in a couple days it may have gone up).

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#43 Jan 12 2006 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Sushi: Sole+1
Meat: Meat Chiefkabobs

I'm considering tentacle more and more, but thats still 50-80k a stack. I'm not comfortable buying food thats the same price as some of my lvl 30 armors.
#44 Jan 12 2006 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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this is also one reason I rated down this guide, no offense, but if you aren't even 60, you don't really have the experience necessary to be publishing guides on good ways to play a job. Also, cost for food shouldn't dictate what is the better choice. And, yes, I did read and disagreed with a large amount of it.
#45 Jan 12 2006 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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So 2 levels(12 hours of gameplay at worst) determines my ability to write a guide? ...That seems a bit ignorant, and if you have issues with it, please tell me what they are. I want to hear the issues and troubles people have with the combination so I can address them. If I have played a job combination for 28 levels, I don't have enough experience to tell others how to do it? A lvl 28 Thf can't give a lvl 5 Thf advice on how to play? Yes, I really am offended by how you are approaching this. Don't just say you have problems with it, state what those problems are.

As for cost of food dicatating what is the better choice: It hasn't. The price of my sushi of choice has not been justified in parses when using my meat of choice. 2000 more damage with Meat, in 20 mobs to make that up with an average hit means I need 1 more hit per mob. With Sushi, and the fact that it tends to gimp my Great Axe damage, I need 2-4 more hits in the same time to stay on par. Not justified. That's like saying that the +2 Att of the Swordbelt+1 Justifies the 250k Price Tag when the NQ is going for 8k.

Have you tried using /Drg in an XP situation? I've used /Nin, /Thf, /Mnk, and /Drg, while I am still leveling /Sam and /Rng for trial. Of those 4, I have gotten my best results with /Drg, good damage, a nice amount of HP, and not pulling as much hate as a /Thf. Can I blink tank if asked to; yes. Will I, if I have a choice? No. Do I have a choice? Always, its a game, played for my enjoyment. I thought it was funny as **** when I met a 60 War/Nin who actually doesn't even have rampage. He's been using the Great Axe since lower levels, even subbing nin. Is he gimped? Does he not know how to play as a War because he has 2 levels over me? Would he be more justified to write a guide?
#46 Jan 13 2006 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Have you tried using /Drg in an XP situation? I've used /Nin, /Thf, /Mnk, and /Drg, while I am still leveling /Sam and /Rng for trial. Of those 4, I have gotten my best results with /Drg, good damage, a nice amount of HP, and not pulling as much hate as a /Thf. Can I blink tank if asked to; yes. Will I, if I have a choice? No. Do I have a choice? Always, its a game, played for my enjoyment. I thought it was funny as **** when I met a 60 War/Nin who actually doesn't even have rampage. He's been using the Great Axe since lower levels, even subbing nin. Is he gimped? Does he not know how to play as a War because he has 2 levels over me? Would he be more justified to write a guide?


I was about to ignore this thread until it doesn't exist like all other similar threads. I give your credit for trying something different but you continue to comeback and make a mockery of the same people who disagree with you.

FFXI isn't designed in such a way so everyone can use WHATEVER subjob they can that would benefit an EXP PT the most. The reasons for /MNK, /THF, /NIN are all very obvious and has been tested to work under varies party setups and optimal level range.

In the game 3+ year life span, there has been one major nerf that took away the once useful /SAM. A so-called nerf to Utsesumi that hasn't really affected /NIN yet. To be honest, I can't recall any update that added benefits to /DRG.

Your short 38 samples for comparing ATK vs Sushi while using G.axe is about as flaw as possible and yet you don't see it. While as a WAR/DRG using sushi your damage is only 2k behind ATK food. Simple math here says you are giving up 10%ACC for merely 52 damage more per fight.

Yet you are more than happy to conclude 10% less accuracy is acceptable. When WAR/THF with sushi with G.axe will easily put your WAR/DRG with ATK food to shame.

Why so many ppl are afraid of pulling hate because of SA + Sturmwind? Why not get yourself a decent PLD tank that know how to Cover, Flash, Cure 3 you to regain hate in 10 second or less. Here is a tip that you wont see often at your level or even at lv.75... SA + whatever WS > pull hate then a THF or /THF (60+) SATA + WS puts hate back to tank.

While I haven't been a lv.58 WAR for over a year now, I can tell you a WAR/NIN post-55 using sushi can and will push for 85+% accuracy on VT-low ITs. You can /NIN and test this out. WAR/NIN post-55 losing to a WAR/DRG using G.axe is unheard of if you are using the right gears.

Being lv.75 or rank 10 in this game no longer translate to knowledge or even experienced. You are welcome to write a guide at any level but don't expect to convert the world into believing you. Again, this game is a bit over 3-years old, somethings has been proven to work and some don't. Until SE decides to add more abilities to DRG, you'll be hard to convince anyone that WAR/DRG is as good as you claim to be or hope to be in EXP settings.





Edited, Fri Jan 13 00:48:12 2006 by darkhaze

Edited, Fri Jan 13 00:56:07 2006 by darkhaze
#47 Jan 13 2006 at 1:10 AM Rating: Default
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Your short 38 samples for comparing ATK vs Sushi while using G.axe is about as flaw as possible and yet you don't see it. While as a WAR/DRG using sushi your damage is only 2k behind ATK food. Simple math here says you are giving up 10%ACC for merely 52 damage more per fight.


Yes, but as I gain those 2 more levels, I will be gaining 20 more points of acc, which should take me into a respectable level. And how many times has it only taken a hit of about 19-20 damage to finish off a mob for a chain 5? I'll take that 52 more damage.

War/Thf with Sushi, I had the same problem with a Great Axe, the damage reduction didn't warrant the use of it over meat. Further more, I Was attacking SLOWER, less hits per fight=less TP(even 1 less hit is 1 less SC or WS available to end a fight). Further, my Damage with SA+Sturmwind wasn't anything exceptional enough to continue using it for me. It wasn't about pulling hate, it was about being able to pull hate with sudden damage(the Dot-Spike I speak about, with WS + Jump), but being able to put up as good damage with less hate-taking issues. And if I take hate as War/Drg and ask for cover, people get angry. Take it as War/Thf, people get angry, take it as War/nin, people get angry, just not as much. In honesty, War/Thf, SA+Sturmwind wasn't even the best option if I wanted to SC, SA+Iron Tempest was. Very few people are willing to open up for a Sturmwind closing Fragmentation, though its put up better numbers than any of my Iron Tempest closers, and the majority of my Rampage closers.

As for your Post-55 argument, I've already tested this before: There has been no appreciable damage difference between the two of us. We are either on par, or so close that its really only 1-WS of damage or so between us in an XP session; that is with my 'horribly low, unacceptable accuracy'. Further, I am not trying to make the world believe me, I am trying to make other players aware of an option, and answer questions they have asked me about why I use it. Maybe that's why I ask people to say specifically what thier problems are with this guide so I can address it, and thus be more informative?

If you want to test the validity of my claim, try it out for yourself. I've already had people agree that it is an excellent ballista/dynamis sub, though not adding much to the hnm front. I've met Sam/Drg's who won't use any other subjob because /Drg has helped them to outpower anything else they can use, in XP and ballista, I've met other War/Drg's who use it situationally; I choose to use it in XP, and get good results from it. I don't think I am an exceptional player, nor have an exceptional understanding of the game, I think I am trying something out and proving that it is working to myself and to my party partners, enough so that those I have fallen behind in levels because I've been doing other things than level(trying to cap my marksmanship, leveling other jobs, farming to make up the last bit of gil I need for an Amemet+1) have regretted passing me; this has been the case with a War/Nin who has gotten some of his better Rampage results due to Armor and Shield Break, a Sam/War who loves to SC with me regardless of what we do, even though he gets upset that I have 200% TP by the time he has 100% if meditate is down, a Drg/War who's gear is outright ridiculous in price, but effective for him, and loves to be in any party I build because 95% of the time it is at the least a 5k an hour party.

Yes, I get very angry when I try to give information to the community, and I get **** rammed down my throat about "Just because X and Y, you can't write a guide" or "Your subjob sucks because it hasn't been proven to be as good as X and Y subjob". I get an extra attack, a little more hp, and an upcoming acc trait, while at 70 another extra attack. With all the emphasis put on Double Attack for Wars, why is me having a guaranteed double attack proc every 1:30 when I use Jump right after a standard attack, any different?

Grah, I don't know why I even bother trying with this; Dragoon forum swears that anything but sushi is gimped, even though in parsers with Meat vs Sushi I've only seen drg's lose about 3-5% acc, and have virtually the same damage output with both. War disagrees with me that Meat+Great Axe surpasses Sushi+Great Axe. Fine, if you want to use Sushi and gimp your own **** damage, go for it. a 504+ delay to hit for 36-40 damage when the War/Nin is swinging faster than that for easily 72-100 damage each round is acceptable, isn't it? Wouldn't DARE to eat meat and make that damage into a 72-110 damage with your Great Axe, and be on par with the war/nin, and supremely above when you hit criticals for 180+.

In Warrior Fashion: I wish you were a pinata.
#48 Jan 13 2006 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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Blz check your PMs
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Luminaire wrote:

Luminaire's Law states that if you played only SMN or BLM to 75, you suck. No exceptions.

the only good mages are people who played melee first/also. just a mage = **** player. always. the only good mages that didn't play melee are using bots to cure. true story.


GrumpyWookie wrote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.
#49 Jan 13 2006 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you, Archangel, for giving me a reason not to bury a Great Axe in someones skull.
#50 Jan 13 2006 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yes, I get very angry when I try to give information to the community, and I get bullsh*t rammed down my throat about "Just because X and Y, you can't write a guide" or "Your subjob sucks because it hasn't been proven to be as good as X and Y subjob". I get an extra attack, a little more hp, and an upcoming acc trait, while at 70 another extra attack. With all the emphasis put on Double Attack for Wars, why is me having a guaranteed double attack proc every 1:30 when I use Jump right after a standard attack, any different?


Not once did I state /DRG sucks. Dont read between the lines. I repeatedly said it's not the MOST efficient in EXP PT. NO one before you proven it to be true and I highly doubt you will be that expection. SAM/DRG? They don't concern me since this isn't a SAM forum.

As for lv.55+ WAR/NINs doing simlar damage to you as WAR/DRG, I suggest you investigate whether they are even swapping +STR gears for Rampage. WAR/NIN with Ramapge don't become good just beuase they /NIN. Most "WAR/NIN DD only" don't even know the WS modifier.

What I wrote about WAR/THF is about as simple as I can put it. If your parties have crappy tanks that can't handle a 400+ WS dmg then your problem lies in the tank not because /THF. Hack, I even suggested a solution to solve that pulling hate issue.

I don't know who or what informs your double attack is the most important thing about being a DD WAR. AF feet adds +1 DA, AF2 legs adds another +1... as you can see there isn't a whole lot of DA enhencement. How did you conclude DA is the most important part of being a DD fails me. Most melees sub /WAR for Berserk. DA is too unreliable even for a WAR main to count on.

Most DD WARs I meet these days don't have a clue on how to dual tank, main tank, backup tank. Being WAR/DRG puts you in another disadvantage where you can't even backup tank. The simple task of provoking adds, 90% of the WARs I see these days don't know how or don't bother.

While you cheer on more dmg per swing using G.axe with ATK food, mobs with higher evasion @65, 70, 75 will make you regret for ever accepting that 70-80%ACC as good. EXPing and level up in this game changes once you get past 60, 65, 70, 73-75 is another major change due to the way ppl setup parties and better gears at higher level. What you parsed and learn pre-60 can't be apply to 65 or 70 and certainly not @75.

You will hate this but I'll tell you right now, enjoy your /DRG because you won't be using that option in merit parties.
#51 Jan 13 2006 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Critical Reading: Reading between the lines of what someone is saying and taking it in context. Also, it being said does not mean it was said specifically about you. What's more, the Post-60 game isn't so much of a scary thing to me. No, I don't have any post 70s yet, but I did bring Drg up to 66 without accuracy gear but lifebelt for quite a long long long time.

Just to set this ahead of time, my merit party is already set in advance:

Drg/Rdm
Whm/Blm
War/Drg
Pld/War
Mnk/War
Rdm/Brd

so that shoots down that argument.

As for 80% Acc being Good: If the damage stays on par with my other DD/SC partners, then yes it is. If it falls behind, then I need to find ways to make it up.

Rampage: I've macro'd in Str gear and done worse with it. I didn't have enough accuracy(and yes, when I do rampage, I am using sushi).

Double Attack: NOT the most important aspect, but would you reject having an enhancement to it if it is available? /Drg gives me the equivalent of a guaranteed Double Attack every 1:30.

Tanks: I won't tank with Nin's, they just can't keep hate. I have been called upon to main tank, and I still do it with /Drg. I have been called upon to backup tank with a War/Nin, and it went nice and easy, as long as I didn't keep any AF on other than my boots, because then hate usually became plastered to me. I've partied with many Pld's, and some are good, and some are bad. I respect the good ones who can keep hate off of me, and know how to use cover. The Bad ones, I give another shot after giving some tips on keeping hate, and if they still can't, then I don't party with them again. So far, I've only met one Pld with enough +enmity built into their voke and enough on their body to keep hate off of me, unless I opened with a WS.

War/Nin: Faster Attacks, Strong WS Post-55
War/Drg: Moderate Attacks, Moderate WS
War/Thf: Slowest Attacks, Strong WS
War/Mnk: Slowest Attacks, Moderate WS

So lets see:
I can go for 2 softer hits and 1 Strong WS
I can go for 1 harder hit and decent WS
I can go for 1 harder hit but slower TP gain and good WS
I can go for 1 harder hit and decent WS

Is that put simply enough for you?

Also, another note: Torama are NOT that hard to hit without sushi. Those have been the worst evasion mobs I've experienced thus far. And how is the higher levels harder when everyone preaches XP on VT-Low IT? Guess What, that's what I try to aim for all the time. Will I take IT-Flat to IT+, yes? But not my preferred XP mob.

Oh, and another note on War/Nin and rampage: Yes, it does add that extra hit, and the Str modifier is nice for the FIRST HIT which does .75. What about the other 4 (5 as War/Nin) 1.00 hits that don't have the modifier on them? And is 1 Strong WS always justified if, lets say as in the case I recently saw, your 2 axes are only dealing out about 28-50 damage a round when I can deal out 70-110? That's how it stays on par; your weaker hits and 1 strong WS balance out with my Moderate hits and Moderate WS.

Edited, Fri Jan 13 05:54:26 2006 by blz
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