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Incoming stuff for BLMFollow

#1 Aug 19 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13085-dev1024-Job-Adjustments?p=173468#post173468

Manawell (Lv. 95)
Eliminates the cost of the next magic spell the target casts.

Thunder V (BLM Lv. 92)
Deals lightning damage to an enemy.

Blizzaja (BLM Lv. 93)
Deals ice damage to enemies within area of effect. Successive use enhances spell potency.

Breakga (BLM Lv. 95)
Petrifies enemies within area of effect, preventing them from acting.

Comet (BLM Lv. 94)
Deals dark damage to an enemy. Successive use enhances spell potency.

Discuss :3
#2 Aug 19 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm more excited for Blizzaja than Thunder V. Beyond is going to keep ice king, I believe.

Hope Comet's damage is nice. It would be great to have a dark damage spell that actually brings the pain.

Breakga seems useful. Manawell seems useful. Really it's an overall good lot. I think we came out of this pretty well ahead of most jobs.
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#3 Aug 19 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
I'm more excited for Blizzaja than Thunder V. Beyond is going to keep ice king, I believe.

Hope Comet's damage is nice. It would be great to have a dark damage spell that actually brings the pain.

Breakga seems useful. Manawell seems useful. Really it's an overall good lot. I think we came out of this pretty well ahead of most jobs.

Blizzaja will absolutely rock for mass kills. As it is now, Blizzaga III is still awesome. Using -ja -> IIIga will be extremely fast and powerful with atmas and ToM staff.

Breakga I was really hoping for, considering that jobs learn break at levels in a similar pattern to them learning sleep. It will make crowd control that much easier for BLM since we can now cycle sleepga -> sleepga II -> breakga -> sleepga to keep mobs immobilized indefinitely, without the help of /SCH.

Impact is actually quite useful for the stat-down effect, but is somewhat impractical to use on BLM due to the high MP cost. Manawell just fixed that. We can now cripple our opponent for the benefit of everyone in the party, and still have MP to nuke him to ****. This I like.

Comet I have some hope for. It's higher level than Thunder V, so hopefully it will do more damage (although potency merits in ice/thunder may keep it from being as efficient/useful).

The one thing I was really hoping for that we're apparently not going to get is Drain II. It would have been especially nice to throw us a bone on HP recovery while we wait for Cure IV from /RDM at 96.
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#4 Aug 19 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
Anyone else hoping they introduce an atma so that Beyond isn't nigh mandatory?

Like Pandy Warden's atma, but obtainable.
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#5 Aug 19 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see them releasing much more in the way of new atma, unless they decide to start adding in more higher-level content into abyssea areas... Lol, that'd **** a lot of people off. xD
#6 Aug 20 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
Anyone else hoping they introduce an atma so that Beyond isn't nigh mandatory?

Like Pandy Warden's atma, but obtainable.


Beyond is better than PW atma for ice spells.
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#7 Aug 21 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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What's wrong with Beyond? Why would we want to replace it? It rocks.
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#8 Aug 21 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Once we get thunder V soon...

Lion, Blinding Horn, Minikin


Sure we still get blizzaja but at least this is another option to mess around with.

Oh, and Ironclads will be 10x faster to solo with tier V than they already are.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 1:02pm by JarrinGoV
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#9 Aug 22 2011 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
Being tied to Ice spells has its drawbacks. It's awesome at times, to be sure, but when you're casting anything else all you've really got is a 3/5 power atma. Heck, if I know I'll be -ja farming for the LS's time, I may go with Ambition over Beyond. Stretch out that Mana Wall >:o

Though that's mostly because I don't have gaiters yet.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 1:54am by tertoonetwothreefour
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#10 Aug 22 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Wait wait. You call it a 3/5 power atma, but you're talking about going with an atma that gives 0 MAB or elemental damage instead? Don't get me wrong - Ambition is a useful tool, but either there's an argument that Beyond isn't powerful enough or there isn't.

Starting to question my gaiters anyway. It's difficult to macro and lots of mobs have enhanced move speed...
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#11 Aug 22 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Gaiters will hurt your Mana Wall, not help it. Switching out of the Goetia Sabots +2 makes you lose the 10% pdt bonus.
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#12 Aug 22 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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JarrinGoV wrote:
Once we get thunder V soon...

Lion, Blinding Horn, Minikin


Sure we still get blizzaja but at least this is another option to mess around with.

Oh, and Ironclads will be 10x faster to solo with tier V than they already are.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 1:02pm by JarrinGoV


I'm thinking it would be best to stay with Minikin, Ultimate, Beyond. Swapping Beyond for either Lion or Blinding horn would give an extra 10 MAB for thunder spells, but at a cost of 60 MAB for ice spells. And with Blizzaja, I'll still be using ice spells more often than thunder.
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#13 Aug 22 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
@Ere: Beyond is powerful enough, just on ice spells. If it's okay to have a blm with 110 ice ele mab, why only 80 mab non-ice? Any NM that's not right down our alley we get -30% power (less diminishing returns)? From the general reception it's gotten here I guess the feeling isn't widely held.

@Yank: I was referring to mob training when I was talkin about Gaiters.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 10:34am by tertoonetwothreefour
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#14 Aug 22 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
@Ere: Beyond is powerful enough, just on ice spells.

It sounds like you want another Atma that's somewhere in between Beyond and Ultimate. It would give a bigger boost to all elements (perhaps something like 35 to 40 MAB), but no boost to any specific element. Your ice nukes would be weaker, but your other nukes would be stronger.

That sound about right?
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#15 Aug 22 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
@Ere: Beyond is powerful enough, just on ice spells. If it's okay to have a blm with 110 ice ele mab, why only 80 mab non-ice? Any NM that's not right down our alley we get -30% power (less diminishing returns)? From the general reception it's gotten here I guess the feeling isn't widely held.

Maybe the feeling isn't widely understood, because I still don't get it. Even if you ignore the ice and light potency on Beyond completely, it's still 30 MAB, which is good enough to be a top notch BLM atma and worth equipping, especially since Pandy Warden kills are nigh unobtainable.

You're looking at it like the ice damage is the standard and everything else loses 30% damage with Beyond equipped; I'm looking at it like everything else gains 30 MAB and ice is super powered.

Even if I DID have ****'s Guardian, I'd still go with Beyond. 30% damage to my strongest single nuke, soon to be strongest -ja, 5/5 merit category spell is far far better than 20 MAB on everything else when the only other thing I have merited is thunder.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 2:31pm by Erecia
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#16 Aug 22 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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VxSote wrote:
[quote=Erecia]

Breakga I was really hoping for, considering that jobs learn break at levels in a similar pattern to them learning sleep. It will make crowd control that much easier for BLM since we can now cycle sleepga -> sleepga II -> breakga -> sleepga to keep mobs immobilized indefinitely, without the help of /SCH.



This. I was looking forward to be able to cast breakga, sleepga, Sleepga II and have be able to have something that will overlap sleepga II if something goes wrong.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 7:39pm by Fumikuu

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 7:40pm by Fumikuu
#17 Aug 22 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
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Fumikuu wrote:
[quote=VxSote][quote=Erecia]

Breakga I was really hoping for, considering that jobs learn break at levels in a similar pattern to them learning sleep. It will make crowd control that much easier for BLM since we can now cycle sleepga -> sleepga II -> breakga -> sleepga to keep mobs immobilized indefinitely, without the help of /SCH.



This. I was looking forward to be able to cast breakga, sleepga, Sleepga II and have be able to have something that will overlap sleepga II if something goes wrong.

I know what people are saying about if the atmas are not broke don't fix them, but I understand what tertoonetwothreefour is saying. I get tired of casting blizaga over and over. I love the animation of firaga. I would love to use that spell more.

I think SE messed up the element tree. If something is weak to wind, I think wind spells are the only spells that should do max damage to it. Being able to "overpower" earth based mobs with thunder instead of wind reduces the focus the game puts on the elemental wheel.

I know there are instance that do respect that philospy. Earth definately is more powerfull on Thunder Elements. But on regular mobs that dont have MDB against said element, you can get away with it.

I just never felt like because you learned X spell at Y level it should be weaker then other spells you learned at higer lvls.

I dont want them to remove ultimate cause it is that awsome. But I would like to see atmas of the same calbier for other elements.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 7:51pm by Fumikuu

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 7:52pm by Fumikuu
#18 Aug 23 2011 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
@Yank: I was referring to mob training when I was talkin about Gaiters.


Yeah I knew what you meant, but I'd still take the Mana Wall bonus over the movement speed. Pulling with increased movement speed occasionally leads to pathing issues (at least in my experience), resulting in sleepga not hitting the entire group.

Then again, maybe I'm doinitwrong. Both options are viable, but the increased -pdt works better for me.
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#19 Aug 23 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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yankeestom wrote:

I'm thinking it would be best to stay with Minikin, Ultimate, Beyond. Swapping Beyond for either Lion or Blinding horn would give an extra 10 MAB for thunder spells, but at a cost of 60 MAB for ice spells. And with Blizzaja, I'll still be using ice spells more often than thunder.

I'm not sure how you're coming up with your numbers. Elemental affinity bonus is calculated separately from MAB. You can't just go giving arbitrary numbers like that without at least describing the other relevant conditions, like what staff is being used, and how much MAB you're starting with (including merits). And then, you need to show some math. Otherwise all you've done is made an unsubstantiated (and probably wrong) claim.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 10:57am by VxSote
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#20 Aug 23 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
I think Fumiku identified something for me - I'm just sick of blizzard.
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#21 Aug 24 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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VxSote wrote:
yankeestom wrote:

I'm thinking it would be best to stay with Minikin, Ultimate, Beyond. Swapping Beyond for either Lion or Blinding horn would give an extra 10 MAB for thunder spells, but at a cost of 60 MAB for ice spells. And with Blizzaja, I'll still be using ice spells more often than thunder.

I'm not sure how you're coming up with your numbers. Elemental affinity bonus is calculated separately from MAB. You can't just go giving arbitrary numbers like that without at least describing the other relevant conditions, like what staff is being used, and how much MAB you're starting with (including merits). And then, you need to show some math. Otherwise all you've done is made an unsubstantiated (and probably wrong) claim.


I don't see how staves, merits, etc are relevant to the discussion; I was talking about the difference from atmas alone. And yes I understand that there is a difference between MAB and elemental affinity. I over-generalized and just said "MAB" for brevity because the difference has no bearing on my basic point.

Removing Beyond and adding Lion or BH increases Thunder damage while decreasing damage from every non-Thunder spell. Unless you're ONLY going to be using Thunder spells it makes more sense to stay with Minikin/Ultimate/Beyond.





Edited, Aug 24th 2011 11:56am by yankeestom
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#22 Aug 24 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Removing Beyond and adding Lion or BH increases Thunder damage while decreasing damage from every non-Thunder spell. Unless you're ONLY going to be using Thunder spells it makes more sense to stay with Minikin/Ultimate/Beyond.


Which is why I offered a specific example in my original post. I wasn't arguing against using beyond, I was just offering another set of atma's to play around with, especially when soloing. Like killing IC Severer solo in under 20 minutes on blm; a nice challenge for inexperienced blm's to try.
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#23 Aug 24 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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yankeestom wrote:
I don't see how staves, merits, etc are relevant to the discussion; I was talking about the difference from atmas alone. And yes I understand that there is a difference between MAB and elemental affinity. I over-generalized and just said "MAB" for brevity because the difference has no bearing on my basic point.

If you think that the difference between MAB and elemental affinity have no bearing, then you don't understand how magic damage is calculated. I suggest you start by reading the Calculating Magic Damage page on the wiki, although it still has some problems regarding elemental staves. You are comparing damage output by varying elemental affinity and MAB, and to do so, you need to consider how much total you have of both. That brings staves and merits into the equation. They are 100% relevant.

yankeestom wrote:
Removing Beyond and adding Lion or BH increases Thunder damage while decreasing damage from every non-Thunder spell. Unless you're ONLY going to be using Thunder spells it makes more sense to stay with Minikin/Ultimate/Beyond.
This is a generalized statement. However, in your previous post, you threw out specific numbers. You don't get to just throw numbers out and explain it away as a generalization, because that's ********* and if nobody else calls you on it, I will, every time.

I will also point out that your generalized statement is only correct if you make the additional assumption that damage from +30% thunder affinity is more than that from +30 MAB. Once again, it depends. For BLM, under typical circumstances (MM and Ultimate, native MAB, thunder merits, gear) it will be true, even using an Indra's +2. But that doesn't mean you can make a blanket statement implying that it will always be true under any circumstance.
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#24 Aug 24 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks Rog Jr., but I’m fully aware of the difference between elemental affinity and MAB. Elemental affinity adds much more than MAB does. However, this is beside the point and has nothing to do with what I was saying in my original post. If I was comparing the effects of one set of atmas vs. another set of atmas on Thunder IV, then those differences would be germane to the discussion. That’s not what I was doing.

Let me spell out my original point for you again. Read it slowly so you understand it this time, and stop reading more into it than I’m saying:

If you stop using Beyond and replace it with a thunder affinity atma, THE DAMAGE ON YOUR NON-THUNDER SPELLS WILL BE REDUCED. The difference between MAB and elemental affinity is not germane to the point I’m making here. Your blizzards, stones, aeros, fires, and waters will do less damage because you replaced a general MAB atma with a one that only affects thunder. It was not my intent to quantify or comment on the amount of increase it will do to your thunder spell.

Here’s my original quote:
Quote:
I'm thinking it would be best to stay with Minikin, Ultimate, Beyond. Swapping Beyond for either Lion or Blinding horn would give an extra 10 MAB for thunder spells, but at a cost of 60 MAB for ice spells. And with Blizzaja, I'll still be using ice spells more often than thunder.

Granted, I threw MAB and elemental-specific modifiers together for the sake of brevity. I’m sorry if this got you wrapped around the axle to the extent that you missed my point. Yes, the “10 MAB” should have read “+10 thunder attack” and “60 MAB” should have read “30 MAB + 30 ice attack”.

Your argument seems to be that I’m not giving due consideration to the difference between +40 thunder attack and +30 MAB. Well I’m not, because my comparison was not a before and after look at the difference to any one specific spell. It’s about which set is more useful in general. If you want to just maximize Thunder, then of course thunder affinity is going to carry more importance, and your gear/merits/etc. will be a big part of the discussion. That’s not the discussion I was having.

Here’s a rewrite of my original post.
Quote:
I'm thinking it would be best to stay with Minikin, Ultimate, Beyond. Swapping Beyond for either Lion or Blinding horn would give a bigger boost to thunder spells, but at a cost of reduced potency for ice spells. And with Blizzaja, I'll still be using ice spells more often than thunder.

My intent with that post is best highlighted by the last sentence in it. Unless you just want to play with an Ironclad or cast only thunder spells, Ultimate/Beyond will still be a better choice for general damage output across the whole spectrum of spells.
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#25 Aug 25 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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To be fair though, in my experience with abyssea its more about specific kills rather than merit grinding (which most people use the standard MM/Beyond/Ultimate for which is why I brought this up); at this point in the game I'd think most people who are blm probably feel the same way.

There are just so many things you can try; stuff like lone wolf, gales, lion+blinding horn, heck even cosmos soon (or cosmos now for your cataclysm's while working on your dark damage staff, /whm sux though).

Sure not using beyond or ultimate will hurt the entire range of elements, but honestly, do you use the whole range of elements each time you enter abyssea? (yellow triggering doesnt count). If you do, then thats great if that works for you. Personally I gear atmas towards a specific element usually and just swap them around as needed.
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#26 Aug 25 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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JarrinGoV wrote:
Sure not using beyond or ultimate will hurt the entire range of elements, but honestly, do you use the whole range of elements each time you enter abyssea? (yellow triggering doesnt count). If you do, then thats great if that works for you. Personally I gear atmas towards a specific element usually and just swap them around as needed.


No, but I generally use more than one. Ice and Fire primarily, and with the addition of Thunder V I'm sure it will become Thunder and Ice primarily.

Most of what I do on BLM (when I'm not the designated yellow triggerer) is either TE/KI farming or pop item farming. Being tied to one element would mean waiting for spell recast times.
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