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Serious question for career BLM'sFollow

#1 May 01 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Now before I ask this question, read this first. My question has nothing to do with XP/merits so please refrain from making any statements to support your case if it focuses on those issues.

In the opinion of career BLM's, is the job broken? I don't mean the glitch either that SE screwed up recently, I mean in general for all stuff except XP. I keep hearing how 'broken' BLM is and I just don't see it. I do see a valid reason to want new stuff like spells that actually BLM, not D3.
#2 May 01 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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If you consider a glass cannon job broken (can deal huge damage but falls apart if sneezed on) broken then yes, blm is broken.

For short spikes in dmg, yes blm is ridiculous. Being able to fire nukes back to back to back is only matched by a Samurai with Sekkanokki and 300tp and both can deal tons of dmg in a very short amount of time.

So yes blm is a bit broken, but not so much so that we don't deserve some sort of update. It's a powerful job that can do a lot, but also has a lot of limits and shortcomings to balance it out as well.
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#3 May 01 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I think that the players and other parts of the game that are broken, not BLM so much. ToAU gave us melee weak but mage resistant mobs to fight ***** pink birds), while magic damage as a whole is less efficient than melee damage because melees don't have to rest ever. This gave melees their huge boost over BLMs XP gaining wise. It's not like ToAU did nothing for BLM though, BLMs mostly do their manaburning/soloing there.

However, BLM does have it's problems like other jobs. For BLM it's mp efficiency. Sure we can nuke like mad and do a lot of damage but then we're out of mp and we have to rest to get it back. Many BLMs are mad at SCH because they do almost as much damage but are far more efficient at keeping their mp. Not to mention all of their white magic spells. The only saving grace for BLM is that SCH lacks in magic accuracy so it's a lot harder to be effective against HNM level mobs unless a SCH has best of the best gear but even then they only reach the accuracy of an AH BLM.
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#4 May 01 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think we are broken now. Perhaps back in the era before ToAU when there was no such thing as ACC food, zergs, detailed understandings and explanations regarding melee gear and builds, etc. BLM could deal superior damage due to the nature of offensive casting in FFXI.

But now? We are about even as far as endgame content is concerned...SE has made **** sure of that.

Edited, May 1st 2009 7:53pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#5 May 02 2009 at 4:15 AM Rating: Good
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But now? We are about even as far as endgame content is concerned...SE has made **** sure of that.


And that is exactly why its broken.

A job that spends mp should not be "even" with other sources of damage; they should either be superior in damage, unquestionably, or gain enough defensive capabilities to utilize the full extent of that type of damage, or make the mp a complete non-issue so that they can continually deal an "even" amount of damage to enemies as other sources of damage.

Pick one, it doesn't matter which; they would all fix the problem.
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#6 May 02 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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If you consider a glass cannon job broken (can deal huge damage but falls apart if sneezed on) broken then yes, blm is broken.


You're using broken in the wrong way. Blm is not "good" broken

Blm is "BAD" broken, even at being a glass cannon. It's not matched only by a samurai going into meikyo shisui(w/e). It's matched by every other melee in the game that is good at their job. In most situations and in some, the black mage doesn't even compare.

There's nothing special about magical damage; its the same as melee damage.


Look honestly I'm just going to let kerberoz or happernack do it.
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#7 May 02 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Samurai is the favored job of SE, no surprise. So comparing any damage job to SAM is probably not that helpful.
#8 May 02 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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Dronamidgard wrote:
Dragoon is the favored job of SE, no surprise

ftfy

I think blm is fine where it is tbh, it's got a lot of utility beyond nuking for events (sleeps, stunning, ele dots, bio/poison), and the big booms for tough stuff too. Main problem is it hasn't gotten any new shinies in a while, and it feels forgotten.
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#9 May 02 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Main problem is it hasn't gotten any new shinies in a while, and it feels forgotten.


You mean ever, right? You realize that black mage has not ever gotten a new ability since the games release unless you count retrace, right?

Oh wait, I think that Bio II used to cost more mp in 2003.

****, correct me; I'd like to be wrong, but I spent about five minutes before making this post trying really hard to think of a job update that I remembered, and I can't come up with anything.
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#10 May 02 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
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But now? We are about even as far as endgame content is concerned...SE has made **** sure of that.


And that is exactly why its broken.

A job that spends mp should not be "even" with other sources of damage; they should either be superior in damage, unquestionably, or gain enough defensive capabilities to utilize the full extent of that type of damage, or make the mp a complete non-issue so that they can continually deal an "even" amount of damage to enemies as other sources of damage.

Pick one, it doesn't matter which; they would all fix the problem.


Listen Pensive I understand your side of the issue, but you must change other things if BLM damage was increased. For starters, lower the enmity of nukes/stun with a /ja. You asked for triple MP efficiency in the other thread and that's just stupid. That's like buffing your average BLM to that of a top notch BLM now kinda like the bandwagon SAM's that were churned out.

IMO, SE should take a page out of SCH's playbook and give BLM a form of helix Dot nukes, maybe a tier II version of Burn/Frost/Choke etc. Burst damage doesn't win over time, it never will or help for that matter. All it does is steal hate and get you killed and probably other mages in AoE range. Take for example a NM like Faust. Most BLM's I know use lower tier nukes so they don't steal hate and thus wiping the other mages/themselves. That formula is key to success IMO for any future BLM updates.

On a final note, BLM has many tools to assist a group. Stun, Sleepga, other link control spells, Dot enfeebles, and many other tools. Most DD's are very one diminsional, no other tools really to help out. If links come, is the DRK really gonna help? Or how about that SAM/war? BLM doesn't need to be the king of DD in general to be a powerful job.
#11 May 02 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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You mean ever, right? You realize that black mage has not ever gotten a new ability since the games release unless you count retrace, right?
...
sh*t, correct me; I'd like to be wrong,


Aside from the obvious smart *** response of "every spell past level 50 was added after release", you're forgetting Ancient Magic II.

Still, that was a long time ago.
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#12 May 02 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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BLM doesn't need to be the king of DD in general to be a powerful job.


Adding extra utility would also fix the problem. A combination of temper and aspir II and elemental dots v.2.0 would be fantastic.

If you are not attempting to change the role of black mage though, then you need to pick from one of the three solutions that I listed, and it does not matter which one you pick.
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#13 May 02 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Aside from the obvious smart *** response of "every spell past level 50 was added after release", you're forgetting Ancient Magic II.


No, I am not forgetting anything. Ask yourself why I would purposefully exclude AM II. Go on, play with it some. You might come to an answer. I'm not doing it for you, not anymore.
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#14 May 02 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Before SCH, I (and many other blms) were sure SE will give tier 2 DoTs to blms. This sounded like the perfect idea to "spread" the blm dmg over time so it will fit the new trend of parties. But they ended up giving this to SCH so I wonder what they have planed for BLM.
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#15 May 02 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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No, I am not forgetting anything. Ask yourself why I would purposefully exclude AM II. Go on, play with it some. You might come to an answer. I'm not doing it for you, not anymore.


Quote:
not ever gotten a new ability since the games release


They are abilities added after the game was released. :)

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#16 May 02 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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I think he meant that the AM2 are not worth mentoning because everyone got new stuff.
And, AM2 were not really that super. Just very high damage with bad dmg/mp ratio.
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#17 May 02 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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AMII were also merits and they only got really awesome if you decided to play like it's 2004 and MB.
#18 May 02 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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The thing that bugs me is, I always thought BLM was supposed to be the king of all DDs. It bugs me to see how much damage WS do compared to magic. They shouldn't compare to the top spells, in my eyes. They don't really cost anything, when you think about it.
#19 May 02 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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joshwhiltz wrote:
The thing that bugs me is, I always thought BLM was supposed to be the king of all DDs. It bugs me to see how much damage WS do compared to magic. They shouldn't compare to the top spells, in my eyes. They don't really cost anything, when you think about it.


WS are essentially free damage. TP comes from hitting the mob, so Melee are always going to accumulate it, without doing anything out of their normal routine.

BLM has to spend MP for every single spell, and the only way to recover that, (aside from meds, refresh) is to essentially remove ourself from the fight.
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#20 May 03 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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sh*t, correct me; I'd like to be wrong, but I spent about five minutes before making this post trying really hard to think of a job update that I remembered, and I can't come up with anything.


Black mages were given scythe skill around the time Chains of Promathia came out. Clearly we should've picked up on the hint and joined the front lines.


I honestly think that the constant addition of magic resistant HNMs is a real nuisance. I'm happy that melee aren't being excluded to the extent that they were, but I'm unhappy that it the pendulum has swung as far as it has.
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#21 May 03 2009 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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The idea of threat reduction JAs is entertaining.

Let's take the mage class in WoW for instance. They're glass cannons but have no trouble topping the DPS charts (up there with rogue last time I played WoW...which was before WotLK).

Mages used to be plagued with the same issues BLM are plagued with now. Mana regen is a bit more insane in WoW but...their main form of regen (evocation) sucked *** for a long time until it was properly modified. They were given native ice block (complete threat wipe) and some other very handy tools to make them much more MP efficient.

Warlocks, on the other hand, were easily able to top mage DPS pre-WotLK. They are similar to SCHs in that warlock DPS comes, in part, from DoTs, but they also had insane nukes that scaled well with gear. They had an infinite source of MP through life tap and spirit tap, which enabled them to basically do what DRKs and SMNs do: convert healer MP into damage or pet MP into damage.

Bringing this back to BLM...our problems stem from the early problems of mage. Poor MP conservation tools (conserve MP and the old evocation with spirit modifier are very similar if you ask me) and little threat reduction for our glass cannon play style. If SE would just catch on, we'd be in business...
#22 May 04 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Bringing this back to BLM...our problems stem from the early problems of mage. Poor MP conservation tools (conserve MP and the old evocation with spirit modifier are very similar if you ask me) and little threat reduction for our glass cannon play style. If SE would just catch on, we'd be in business...


I dislike the crossover to WOW, but what he says is true.

The main issues with BLM are very poor MP conservation and little threath reduction.

Even a -20 enmity is little when all you can do is large spikes of damage.
#23 May 04 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd definitely follow up on the threat idea... I posted something in the FFXI Feedback Forums here. I got sub-defaulted in, oh, 2 hours though.

Honestly new spells aren't an issue, the real problem I have is that I have a RDM friend, a COR friend, and a SAM friend... and I can't do anything with the SAM on BLM because either I don't do worthwhile damage or he chases the mob who chases me (benny hill if you please).

In this instance, a big -Enmity of some sort would be a real problem solver... if I end up doing anything on BLMs it's only with other BLMs since that's the only way to take enmity out of the equation. It'd be nice to work with other jobs once in a while.
#24 May 05 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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A higher tiered Conserve MP would be nice.
#25 May 05 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Magical damage is like the retarded stepchild of melee damage in terms of efficiency, and as long as that remains the case then BLM is broken. No new spells or minor tweaks will change that, in my opinion. Only a complete overhaul of MP efficiency can change the way things are, either in terms of dramatically reducing the cost of spells or, much more sensibly, giving us some way (seriously, any way will do) of maintaining our MP without taking ourselves out of a fight. Refresh is an absolutely laughable mitigation of the cost of us doing business, and we can't even cast it on ourselves! As the bare minimum, BLM needs some kind of powerful native refresh as a job trait - and one that stacks with other forms of MP recovery - new forms of which would likely also be needed.

If I'm having to spend 170MP to cast a spell which does as much damage as a free WS, then I need to be able, as a bare minimum, to recover 170MP in the time it takes a melee to get his TP back above 100. Bear in mind that the whole time I'm standing around waiting to cast again, that melee is throwing out an endless stream of damage with his normal attacks too, so I need something else: DoT spells which at least compare to melee DoT. Think about how much MP that is which needs to be recovered just to keep me on an even keel with a melee, then consider what percentage of that MP can actually be recovered by me as the game stands at the moment. Yeah.
#26 May 06 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
give a party of 3 melee 2 bards and a rdm and you have a very powerful party

give 3 blms a brd cor and rdm and the blms will outdmg the above melee.


the problem with this being = most LSs don't have the support jobs to spare and blms end up with at the most, 2 support characters.
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