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#1 Dec 03 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
Playonline wrote:
- The effectiveness of the scholar ability "Sublimation" in converting HP to MP will increase based on level.
Lv.35: 2HP => 2MP
Lv.45: 2HP => 3MP
Lv.55: 2HP => 4MP
Lv.65: 2HP => 5MP
Lv.75: 2HP => 6MP
Lv.85: 2HP => 7MP


So much for the Sublimation vs. Self Refreshing argument. :-D
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#2 Dec 03 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
Lady Jinte
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I hope I'm reading this right when they say "effectiveness", but here's some numbers for you to drool over


35: 2 HP => 2 MP: 40 MP/min (1HP:1MP)
45: 2 HP => 3 MP: 60 MP/min (1HP:1.5MP)
55: 2 HP => 4 MP: 80 MP/min (1HP:2MP)
---60: 3 HP => 5 MP: 100 MP/min
65: 2 HP => 5MP: 100 MP/min (1HP:2.5 MP)
---65: 3 HP => 7 MP: 140 MP/min (Assuming that half MP will be floored, like everything else in this game)
---74: 4 HP => 10 MP: 200 MP/min
75: 2 HP => 6 MP: 120 MP/min (1HP:3MP)
---75: 3 HP => 9 MP => 180 MP/min
---75: 4 HP => 12 MP => 240 MP/min
85: 2 HP => 7 MP: 140 MP/min (1HP:3.5MP)
---65: 3 HP => 10 MP: 140 MP/min
---74: 4 HP => 14 MP: 200 MP/min




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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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#3 Dec 03 2010 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
palomaru
Scholar
33 posts
Lady Jinte wrote:
I hope I'm reading this right when they say "effectiveness", but here's some numbers for you to drool over


35: 2 HP => 2 MP: 40 MP/min (1HP:1MP)
45: 2 HP => 3 MP: 60 MP/min (1HP:1.5MP)
55: 2 HP => 4 MP: 80 MP/min (1HP:2MP)
---60: 3 HP => 5 MP: 100 MP/min
65: 2 HP => 5MP: 100 MP/min (1HP:2.5 MP)
---65: 3 HP => 7 MP: 140 MP/min (Assuming that half MP will be floored, like everything else in this game)
---74: 4 HP => 10 MP: 200 MP/min
75: 2 HP => 6 MP: 120 MP/min (1HP:3MP)
---75: 3 HP => 9 MP => 180 MP/min
---75: 4 HP => 12 MP => 240 MP/min
85: 2 HP => 7 MP: 140 MP/min (1HP:3.5MP)
---65: 3 HP => 10 MP: 140 MP/min
---74: 4 HP => 14 MP: 200 MP/min






This is not how it will work. SE has been making very non SE like changes recently, but what your saying is just way too much for sublim to do (remember, this is basically suppose to be in the same slot as refresh/refresh2). AF hat converts 1 more hp to mp, relic body converts 1 more hp to mp. I would bet my account (seriously, I'm this sure about this) that with hat and body at 85, sublimination will be 4 hp => 9 mp. Now they might change the function of the items and make it 2 hp => 9 mp, but theres no way we'd be getting 14 mp/tick.
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#4 Dec 03 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Default
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
I disagree with your speculation regarding gear effects, I imagine gear will still offer a 1:1 HP:MP conversion, and our base will simply improve over levels.

As such, I see this table:

Level | Base | +AF Hat | +Relic Body

35 | 2:2 | X | X
45 | 2:3 | X | X
55 | 2:4 | X | X
60 | 2:4 | 3:5 | X
65 | 2:5 | 3:6 | X
74 | 2:5 | 3:6 | 4:7
75 | 2:6 | 3:7 | 4:8
85 | 2:7 | 3:8 | 4:9
(95) | 2:8 | 3:9 | 4:10

If I'm wrong and gear potency is indeed scaled according to level as well, then holy crap... We would have a self-sustaining refresh of 16 MP/tick at 95... I stand behind this table, however, because as it is... our base is already higher than what RDM and BRD get by 1 and 2 MP respectively.

palomaru wrote:
Now they might change the function of the items and make it 2 hp => 9 mp, but theres no way we'd be getting 14 mp/tick.

While I would welcome this adjustment to the gear, I honestly don't even consider the HP reduction of sublimation, simply because I always have stoneskin up. For this same reason, I've never calculated stoneskin's MP cost into sublimation efficiency calculations. It's simply not a variable. If stoneskin is down, I put it up.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 6:21am by Banggugyangu
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#5 Dec 03 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
Lady Jinte
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it's not likely, no, but I figure someone's gonna point it out, so I may as well just get it out of the way now Smiley: lol
____________________________
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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#6 Dec 03 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
gaira
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447 posts
to be honest, i'm much more pleased with the 5th stratagem (essentially 48 seconds per strat now) than improved sublimation. it's certainly nice, but with mp refresh atmas i almost never bother to charge sublimation unless there is downtime in whatever we're doing.

i suppose this will be most beneficial outside abyssea, if such a place exists any more :p
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#7 Dec 03 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
while healing in abyssea, I never use sublimation charges. While nuking, I use sublimation charges regularly. What stratagems do you use on your nukes? 9 and eventually 10 MP/tick will make it where you can ebullience all of your nukes with no downtime whatsoever.
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#8 Dec 05 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Default
LyltiaofLakshmi
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824 posts
Quote:
While nuking, I use sublimation charges regularly. What stratagems do you use on your nukes? 9 and eventually 10 MP/tick will make it where you can ebullience all of your nukes with no downtime whatsoever.


You should already have at least 10/tick Refresh while in Abyssea, on top of Sublimation.. and a 48s recast of 5 strategems (assuming the recast time changes; I wouldn't get your hopes up) isn't going to magically enable endless Ebullience spam compared to what we can already pull off.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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#9 Dec 05 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Default
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
While nuking, I use sublimation charges regularly. What stratagems do you use on your nukes? 9 and eventually 10 MP/tick will make it where you can ebullience all of your nukes with no downtime whatsoever.


You should already have at least 10/tick Refresh while in Abyssea, on top of Sublimation.. and a 48s recast of 5 strategems (assuming the recast time changes; I wouldn't get your hopes up) isn't going to magically enable endless Ebullience spam compared to what we can already pull off.


I really have no idea what point you were trying to make? My point was that if the above poster isn't using sublimation while nuking, he's most likely using parsimony instead of ebullience. Even w/ refresh atma, you'll still burn through your MP if you're nuking quickly. Enough so that sublimation should definitely be utilized.
No... 48 second recharge on stratagems won't magically enable "endless" ebullience, but it will certainly make it a lot better. With a 10 second base cast time on water 5 and the high probability that you will, indeed cast at least 1 spell that isn't a nuke in between each nuke, you should be able to buff each nuke with ebullience even now, but certainly at 90. That's irregardless, however, as my comment wasn't about the charge time, but rather about the use of parsimony vs ebullience due to whatever MP restraints anyone may feel they have had.
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#10 Dec 05 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Default
LyltiaofLakshmi
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824 posts
Sounds to me like you haven't played in awhile. Minikin + a good idle set + Sublimation is restoring over 300 MP per minute; between that, meds, Dark Arts, and our natural ConserveMP trait, it is pretty much impossible to run out of MP in Abyssea even if nuking nonstop (which is hard to do even when pinning). There's no reason to ever use Parsimony outside of Tabula Rasa, and even then I usually skip it to activate Pendant faster.

Also... 'irregardless' isn't a word. And change your 'posting from' comment before I report you.

Edited, Dec 5th 2010 1:13pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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#11 Dec 05 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
I wish you would read before you respond... I was posting about the guy stating that he doesn't even use sublimation in abyssea... I'm asking him if he uses parsimony.... I don't use parsimony, though I don't have minikin monstrosity, I do use sublimation. With sublimation, I never have MP problems, but I use it nonetheless.

"Irregardless" technically is a word, according to Merriam Webster. It is, however, classified as "nonstandard".

BTW. Give me a proper reason as to why my "posting from" comment should be changed, and I'll change it. Don't try to hide behind the inevitable "It's offensive" BS, however, as your "better than you" attitude is much more offensive than a non-vulgar slang for a woman's genitalia ever could be.
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#12LyltiaofLakshmi, Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Much more offensive to you, maybe. And BTW, a vagina is not a genital. Trying to sound smarter than you are just makes you look like an idiot.
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#13 Dec 06 2010 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
kegsay
Sage
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1,181 posts
Once again LyltiaofLakshmi is being an ass.

Really with Minikin's 10mp/tick and Sublimation currently, I usually Ebuil. all nukes in abyssea. When I'm not in abyssea however, I Parsimony all my nukes. This addition will really help for those non-abyssea things though. Presuming we get another 10mp/tick atma in Hereos, that distinction between abyssea/non-abyssea play will widen further.
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#14 Dec 06 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
I don't use parsimony, though I don't have minikin monstrosity, I do use sublimation. With sublimation, I never have MP problems, but I use it nonetheless.


If this is truly the case, you need to nuke more.


Did you really just disagree with me for having agreed with you over agreeing with me and not knowing it? I guess that proves that you don't read things before you start flapping your tongue.

*edit* Kegsay, I don't parsimony all of my nukes outside of abyssea, but I do parsimony a great deal of them. I ebullience when I know that the extra 20% will be enough to finish the mob off. IMO, this is the whole "time is money" thing.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 9:51am by Banggugyangu
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#15 Dec 06 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
LyltiaofLakshmi
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824 posts
Quote:
Did you really just disagree with me for having agreed with you over agreeing with me and not knowing it? I guess that proves that you don't read things before you start flapping your tongue.


You seem to have some weird metagame going on here but I assure you that the <100MP restored per minute without Minikin is nowhere near enough MP to maintain an optimal nuking frequency within Abyssea. I know what he said, and I know what you said, and you're both way off base, that's all there is to it.

Quote:
I ebullience when I know that the extra 20% will be enough to finish the mob off. IMO, this is the whole "time is money" thing.


This doesn't make any sense either. If you're using one charge on Parsimony, your concern is MP costs, so not using using all of your charges on Parsimony is just counterproductive; the occasional Ebullience may kill an individual target faster, but your overall efficiency goes down as a result. If you're in a situation where you have unlimited MP (Abyssea) Ebullience wins, and if you're in a situation where you just need your target in the ground as fast as possible, Alacrity wins. It very rarely makes sense to mix and match Strategems outside of Tabula Rasa.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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#16 Dec 06 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
Banggugyangu
**
629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Did you really just disagree with me for having agreed with you over agreeing with me and not knowing it? I guess that proves that you don't read things before you start flapping your tongue.


You seem to have some weird metagame going on here but I assure you that the <100MP restored per minute without Minikin is nowhere near enough MP to maintain an optimal nuking frequency within Abyssea. I know what he said, and I know what you said, and you're both way off base, that's all there is to it.
Minikin Monstrosity isn't the only refresh atma out there. Couple that with smart use of convert and all the other MP regenerative abilities we have. It's not hard to keep MP up in abyssea... that was my point. That was your point. Can we just agree to ... agree?
Quote:

Quote:
I ebullience when I know that the extra 20% will be enough to finish the mob off. IMO, this is the whole "time is money" thing.


This doesn't make any sense either. If you're using one charge on Parsimony, your concern is MP costs, so not using using all of your charges on Parsimony is just counterproductive; the occasional Ebullience may kill an individual target faster, but your overall efficiency goes down as a result. If you're in a situation where you have unlimited MP (Abyssea) Ebullience wins, and if you're in a situation where you just need your target in the ground as fast as possible, Alacrity wins. It very rarely makes sense to mix and match Strategems outside of Tabula Rasa.


If your nuke will kill with ebullience and won't with parsimony, you'll achieve the same result faster by using ebullience. This leads you to rest sooner if you need or move on to the next mob sooner. Not that difficult of a concept.


Edited, Dec 6th 2010 10:43am by Banggugyangu
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#17LyltiaofLakshmi, Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) But, if you're using Parsimony in the first place, you've decided that MP is the primary constraint on your killspeed/efficiency; every time you use Ebullience in place of Parsimony, you're throwing away ~120MP, the equivalent of ~10% of your entire MP pool. Also consider that at most you're adding ~300 damage with that Strategem, less than that if that damage contributes to an overkill, and the dirt cheap costs/casting times of Drain/tier1~2 nukes.
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#18 Dec 06 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Default
Banggugyangu
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629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Minikin Monstrosity isn't the only refresh atma out there.


It is, however, the only one worth using.

Quote:
If your nuke will kill with ebullience and won't with parsimony, you'll achieve the same result faster by using ebullience. This leads you to rest sooner if you need or move on to the next mob sooner. Not that difficult of a concept.


But, if you're using Parsimony in the first place, you've decided that MP is the primary constraint on your killspeed/efficiency; every time you use Ebullience in place of Parsimony, you're throwing away ~120MP, the equivalent of ~10% of your entire MP pool. Also consider that at most you're adding ~300 damage with that Strategem, less than that if that damage contributes to an overkill, and the dirt cheap costs/casting times of Drain/tier1~2 nukes.

I'm sorry, but when you're in an offensive situation where your MP pool is the primary limitation on efficiency, Parsimony is always the most effective Strategem, period. You guys want to complain about how much of an ass I am, but when I have to sit here and waste my time typing out super-obvious sh*t like this so that somebody doesn't happen to read it and think you might actually be correct, I can't help but feel 100% justified.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 12:11pm by LyltiaofLakshmi


Who said ANYTHING about MP pool being a primary constraint? I even gave a situation where time > MP... You, once again, assumed something. Once again I say, read first.
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#19 Dec 07 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Default
LyltiaofLakshmi
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824 posts
Quote:
Who said ANYTHING about MP pool being a primary constraint?


You wrote:
Quote:
I don't parsimony all of my nukes outside of abyssea, but I do parsimony a great deal of them.


Why do you Parsimony a great deal of them? Because your MP pool is your primary constraint. This is the only reason one ever uses Parsimony, so if you say "I do Parsimony a great deal of them," you are acknowledging that your MP pool is your primary constraint.

Quote:
I even gave a situation where time > MP...


You wrote:
Quote:
If your nuke will kill with ebullience and won't with parsimony, you'll achieve the same result faster by using ebullience. This leads you to rest sooner if you need or move on to the next mob sooner.


If you are primarily using Parsimony, and decide to use Ebullience simply to kill a single target out of many faster, you might down that individual target a few seconds faster, but you are decreasing your overall MP efficiency, which over time leads to less kills over time and lowered efficiency. This is not debatable. If you're in a situation where you're only killing a few mobs, or just one NM, you wouldn't be using Parsimony in the first place, and you wouldn't be using Ebullience, either; you would be using Alacrity.

Quote:
You, once again, assumed something. Once again I say, read first.


I read what you wrote down to the letter and parsed it with some fierce logic. You're still wrong.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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