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scholar unbalanced,its ridiculousFollow

#1 Sep 03 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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Ok.. listen to this, Scholar has All the nukes that blm get at the same levels or damm close to it. They got raise2 wich was Whm only but nope not anymore. Rdm was only job who could solo Various Nms by kiting, now with the Mp that sch get i think its called accension something like that and all schs have helioplex, i think its called that wich can be used for Dot. So how is this fair, scholar gets spells pretty much same time as Blm (blm Was Strongest in DD nuke until scholar came along. Now the ONLY redeeming thing is sch dosent get Aga spells, but when you see a secondary job get thunder4+ all the spells in the world you start thinking damm, i wasted all that time to lvl Blm.
#2 Sep 03 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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alexbadass wrote:
Ok.. listen to this, Scholar has All the nukes that blm get at the same levels or damm close to it. They got raise2 wich was Whm only but nope not anymore. Rdm was only job who could solo Various Nms by kiting, now with the Mp that sch get i think its called accension something like that and all schs have helioplex, i think its called that wich can be used for Dot. So how is this fair, scholar gets spells pretty much same time as Blm (blm Was Strongest in DD nuke until scholar came along. Now the ONLY redeeming thing is sch dosent get Aga spells, but when you see a secondary job get thunder4+ all the spells in the world you start thinking damm, i wasted all that time to lvl Blm.


If your thinking of "wasted all that time to lvl blm", then your retarded. SCH isn't as good at everything as you seem to imply, we are heavily restricted by light/dark arts, and the strategems we have available. It may be as good at *one* of those things at a time, and very useful in a lot of situations, but not all.
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#3 Sep 03 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I'm surprised I didn't see this thread in the PUP forums as well. Having leveled both BLM and SCH I can't help to laugh when I see BLM's rant about Scholar's and ONLY Scholar's nukes when we have that PUP next to us nuking just as hard if not harder and a near limitless MP pool with their deactivate/activate commands. Oh yea, and they get the same Tier nukes around the same time as well.

If the attachments weren't so expensive, I'd probably level PUP as well for another nuking job... na I'll probably level it anyways and be even more broke XD
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#4 Sep 03 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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alexbadass wrote:
Ok.. listen to this,


I wish I hadn't.


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Scholar has All the nukes that blm get at the same levels or damm close to it.


No. Ancient Magic, AMII, ga nukes, ja spells, not to mention utility spells like stun, enfeebles, sleepgas and elemental dots

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They got raise2 wich was Whm only but nope not anymore.


Yes, because we know how defining raise II is to WHM's. It's not like they have Raise III or anything. I wouldn't be surprised to see RDM also get Raise II at some point.

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Rdm was only job who could solo Various Nms by kiting,


BLM, BLU, SMN and PUP would like to have a word with you.


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now with the Mp that sch get i think its called accension something like that and all schs have helioplex, i

think its called that wich can be used for Dot.

You are very knowledgeable about the job.


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So how is this fair, scholar gets spells pretty much same time as Blm (blm Was Strongest in DD nuke until scholar came along.


You haven't seen any good PUPs have you? And BLM was the ONLY magical DD for years. And even now, BLM still nukes harder than SCH. And I have a feeling it will continue to get nukes that SCH will not have access to. SCH does pull ahead in MP efficiency, but that was not your argument.


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Now the ONLY redeeming thing is sch dosent get Aga spells, but when you see a secondary job get thunder4+ all the spells in the world you start thinking damm, i wasted all that time to lvl Blm.


I'm not even going to try to decipher what you mean by "secondary job." I've already listed the spells BLM has that SCH doesn't. That also doesn't take into account Job Traits, Job Abilities, gear and a (imho) a superior 2 hour. If you can't see the differences between the two jobs and understand how BLM shines, maybe you did waste your time leveling it.
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#5 Sep 03 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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The OP has been posting equally stupid stuff in other job forums. Just a troll. Ignore them.
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#6 Sep 03 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
a (imho) a superior 2 hour.


The OP is an idiot, sure, but I lol'd at that.
#7 Sep 03 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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JaxReborn wrote:
Just a troll.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#8 Sep 04 2010 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Logiks wrote:
Quote:
a (imho) a superior 2 hour.


The OP is an idiot, sure, but I lol'd at that.


Typo aside, why?
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#9 Sep 04 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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Only gripe I could see with Tabula Rasa is it is a bit cumbersome to use with limited macro space. Celerity/Alacrity can obviously offset the delay of popping other Stratagems. You'll at least want to up potency and cut MP cost, but AoE, accuracy, or enmity reduction from merits is optional. Possible 6 buttons for one spell before even touching gear swaps for those without Windower. :x

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 8:24am by Seriha
#10 Sep 04 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Only gripe I could see with Tabula Rasa is it is a bit cumbersome to use with limited macro space. Celerity/Alacrity can obviously offset the delay of popping other Stratagems. You'll at least want to up potency and cut MP cost, but AoE, accuracy, or enmity reduction from merits is optional. Possible 6 buttons for one spell before even touching gear swaps for those without Windower. :x

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 8:24am by Seriha


Well, that and the fact that it's not very useful in an emergency situation. If you're already out of MP then Tabula Rasa isn't going to do much for you. Manafont gives you free spells and prevents you from being interrupted. TR is great to start out a fight but it won't do you much good in an "oh sh*t" moment. It also bugs me that you don't have access to all strategems while the two hour is active.
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#11 Sep 04 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Sasaraixx wrote:
TR is great to start out a fight but it won't do you much good in an "oh sh*t" moment.


Using Tabula Rasa at the start of the fight is a waste.. one minute of unlimited Strategem use is nice to squeeze off 3-6 full-power nukes, but the real benefit of using it is the timer reset. For example, SCH80/RDM40 in Abyssea with full meds/buffs and 2hr ready can Ebullience every Helix and most nukes over a 10 minute span, if you wait to use Tabula Rasa until your Strategem recast is @3:59.

Besides, not all 2hr abilities are meant to be "Osh*t" buttons, and I'm glad SCH doesn't have one, as it would go against the entire point of the job. What kind of tactician needs an Osh*t button? A bad one.

Seriha wrote:
Possible 6 buttons for one spell before even touching gear swaps for those without Windower. :x


Does this even apply to anyone anymore? I would've quit in frustration at FFXI's horrible UI years ago without it; that, and any SCH without it will never be capable of the same level of play as one who does use it. Individual skill has nothing to do with it.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Sep 04 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:


Using Tabula Rasa at the start of the fight is a waste.. one minute of unlimited Strategem use is nice to squeeze off 3-6 full-power nukes, but the real benefit of using it is the timer reset. For example, SCH80/RDM40 in Abyssea with full meds/buffs and 2hr ready can Ebullience every Helix and most nukes over a 10 minute span, if you wait to use Tabula Rasa until your Strategem recast is @3:59.


No, it's not a waste. It is useful if you are soloing and want to gank an NM at the very start. It would be similarly useful in a zerg type fight, which is another instance where you would use it right away. And you can already use Ebullience on just about all your nukes now as it is, given that you are going to be watching your hate anyway.

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Besides, not all 2hr abilities are meant to be "Osh*t" buttons, and I'm glad SCH doesn't have one, as it would go against the entire point of the job. What kind of tactician needs an Osh*t button? A bad one.


It's called reality. Just because you are a tactician does not mean you can plan for every single possible outcome. Events arise in the course of a battle that you did not expect and you have to adapt. Am I to assume that over the course of playing SCH, you've never found yourself in a similar situation in a party?

I stand behind my opinion that Manafont is generally more useful.

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Does this even apply to anyone anymore? I would've quit in frustration at FFXI's horrible UI years ago without it; that, and any SCH without it will never be capable of the same level of play as one who does use it. Individual skill has nothing to do with it.


Yes, it does apply because some of us play on 360 and therefore windower is never an option.
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#13 Sep 04 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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They're out there. Then again, they may also avoid SCH for that reason.
#14 Sep 05 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
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No, it's not a waste. It is useful if you are soloing and want to gank an NM at the very start. It would be similarly useful in a zerg type fight, which is another instance where you would use it right away


No matter how you look at it, it's a waste if you use it without spending all of your Strategems first, even if they're all on one spell. There's also the fact that they last a minute.. if you have enough time to buff and prepare, you have enough time to hit a few JAs before rushing in.

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And you can already use Ebullience on just about all your nukes now as it is, given that you are going to be watching your hate anyway.


I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here, but if you're concerned about hate, you should be using Alacrity or Parsimony along with an Enmity- set; using a standard set with Ebullience doesn't come close over longer fights where you're worried about something big stomping on you.

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Am I to assume that over the course of playing SCH, you've never found yourself in a similar situation in a party?


I see this argument a lot and it mystifies me.. disregarding the first week or two after an update, one can find information regarding every monster in the game, how to defeat it, what to expect, etc. on this very same internet. There's absolutely no reason any mob should catch you with your pants down if you do some research and plan accordingly.

In my experience, human error/stupidity is what causes those situations; to which I say: Play better, with less retards. I didn't level SCH to play faux-RDM and pick up the pieces when idiots fail.

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I stand behind my opinion that Manafont is generally more useful.


Manafont has exactly two uses: cast spells for free and avoid interruption; it's pretty straightforward. Tabula Rasa, on the other hand:

-Cast every spell at half MP cost, half casting time, half recast time, increased damage, AoE'd, and more with merits.
-Resets Strategem timers, giving you up to 3 free charges
-Removes Arts penalties and optimizes both.

Being able to spam Strategems alone allows for the 2HR to be used effectively in many different situations, in both Light and Dark Arts. In terms of 'usefulness,' I really don't see how Manafont comes close to comparing. It just depends on how much mileage you're able to get out of it.

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Yes, it does apply because some of us play on 360 and therefore windower is never an option.


PCs that run FFXI are cheaper than 360s by a pretty good margin these days, so I wouldn't say it's 'never' an option.. but meh, I don't tell the Amish around here to buy cars, either.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#15 Sep 05 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Default
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:

No matter how you look at it, it's a waste if you use it without spending all of your Strategems first, even if they're all on one spell. There's also the fact that they last a minute.. if you have enough time to buff and prepare, you have enough time to hit a few JAs before rushing in.


And you can still do all of that at the beginning of a fight, so you are not contradicting anything that I said.

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I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here, but if you're concerned about hate, you should be using Alacrity or Parsimony along with an Enmity- set; using a standard set with Ebullience doesn't come close over longer fights where you're worried about something big stomping on you.


The point I was making was that you made it seem as if using TR the way you describe it gives you some huge bonus over a 10 minute window. It doesn't. You can pretty much do what you are saying without having to 2hr. You aren't going to be throwing out a big nukes every 10 seconds because you WILL end up dead regardless of how good your enmity set it. It's not as impressive as you claim.

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I see this argument a lot and it mystifies me.. disregarding the first week or two after an update, one can find information regarding every monster in the game, how to defeat it, what to expect, etc. on this very same internet. There's absolutely no reason any mob should catch you with your pants down if you do some research and plan accordingly.

In my experience, human error/stupidity is what causes those situations; to which I say: Play better, with less retards. I didn't level SCH to play faux-RDM and pick up the pieces when idiots fail.


So, you didn't answer my question. . . And I'm sorry, but you are full of it. There are plenty of NM's in this game that are going to be rough for any group, I don't care how much you prepare or research before hand. This is even more so the case when you low man things. And even IF I am going to believe that you and all the parties you participate in walk on water, save for those first few weeks after an update, my point is still valid. If you had the ability to use your 2hr to get the win in a hairy situation that is still a bonus to everyone participating. Your faux-RDM comment is 1) off base and 2) pretty shallow. There shouldn't be anything mystifying about using your 2hour to help yourself or your group get a win. And while I'm sure Tabula Rasa can be a 'lifesaver' to a group in such a situation, I think Manafont would be even more so.

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I stand behind my opinion that Manafont is generally more useful.


Quote:
Manafont has exactly two uses: cast spells for free and avoid interruption; it's pretty straightforward. Tabula Rasa, on the other hand:

-Cast every spell at half MP cost, half casting time, half recast time, increased damage, AoE'd, and more with merits.
-Resets Strategem timers, giving you up to 3 free charges
-Removes Arts penalties and optimizes both.

Being able to spam Strategems alone allows for the 2HR to be used effectively in many different situations, in both Light and Dark Arts. In terms of 'usefulness,' I really don't see how Manafont comes close to comparing. It just depends on how much mileage you're able to get out of it


I didn't say Tabula Rasa was ineffective and nothing that you wrote proves that it is more useful than Manafont. And while you did list a lot of strategem , some of them aren't that useful practically speaking. Also, while the two hour does remove Arts penalties, it does not give you access to all strategems, adding to an already cumbersome 2-hour. And as I've said before, if you are already low on MP Tabula Rasa is pretty useless.

Just because Manafont is straightforward, does not mean that it isn't still immensely useful. Tabula Rasa may not be as simple, but that does not automatically mean it is therefore superior.

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PCs that run FFXI are cheaper than 360s by a pretty good margin these days, so I wouldn't say it's 'never' an option.. but meh, I don't tell the Amish around here to buy cars, either.


No. If you play on a console, then windower is never an option. And your argument that you would save money by going the PC route makes a few poor assumptions, the first being that the individual does not already have a 360. You also ignore the utility of having one over the other. The Amish? Really? I think you need to get out and get some air. Your world is a little too FFXI-centric.
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#16 Sep 05 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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And you can still do all of that at the beginning of a fight, so you are not contradicting anything that I said.


Semantics, whatever.

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The point I was making was that you made it seem as if using TR the way you describe it gives you some huge bonus over a 10 minute window. It doesn't. You can pretty much do what you are saying without having to 2hr. You aren't going to be throwing out a big nukes every 10 seconds because you WILL end up dead regardless of how good your enmity set it. It's not as impressive as you claim.


The 10 minute window was just an example, and I assure you that a minute of unlimited Strategems +3 from the reset is making a huge difference in your damage output. Also, you are dead wrong about the utility of a serious Enmity- set.. stack -50, use Klimaform to make up for lost MACC, use Alacrity on your 2 best nukes, and spam til Klimaform is up. I spent a month tweaking my sets/strategy on HNM, and I always dealt more damage than I did using other strategies, as well as completely destroying the other nukers. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're knowledgeable, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.

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So, you didn't answer my question. . .


Yes, I did. But let me elaborate so there's no doubt. SCH isn't RDM. Switching back and forth between Arts, with a few exceptions, is a terrible way to play the job. Either you're there to heal/support, or you're there to blow sh*t up; a SCH that tries to play both roles over the course of a fight becomes nothing more than a RDM-1, with all the Arts restrictions. Therefore, if you are fighting something that you want an all-purpose mage for, you bring a fkn RDM. Not a SCH. If you end up in a situation like this on SCH, you formed your party poorly (didn't plan ahead, didn't do your research, don't know party dynamics, joined a pickup, etc.), and you deserve to lose.

As for me and mine 'walking on water'... the game is 8 years old, most of us have been here for the better part of that, and the game is not rocket science. Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but dammit, I don't think basic competency from the people I choose to play with is asking too much at this point in the game's life.

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Just because Manafont is straightforward, does not mean that it isn't still immensely useful. Tabula Rasa may not be as simple, but that does not automatically mean it is therefore superior.


I define 'useful' as 'having lots of useful uses.' Tabula Rasa has many, many more of those than Manafont does, and the low-MP argument for SCH/RDM is a nonstarter. I don't know about you, but I have to really try to run out of MP in most situations for it to happen. Manafont is only as useful as it is because it alleviates the one glaring flaw of BLM: MP restoration. I think once BLM/RDM gets Refresh, this will become more clear.

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No. If you play on a console, then windower is never an option. And your argument that you would save money by going the PC route makes a few poor assumptions, the first being that the individual does not already have a 360. You also ignore the utility of having one over the other. The Amish? Really? I think you need to get out and get some air. Your world is a little too FFXI-centric.


Damn you really took that and ran with it, didn't you? There's no argument about saving money in my statement. The point I was trying to make was this: if one is playing FFXI on their xbox in 2010, one would assume they have an internet connection, and if they have no PC, it's likely one of their main sources of entertainment, so they're paying for internet, gold, and FFXI fees, just to play FFXI. I just can't fathom somebody jumping through all those hoops just to play FFXI on an inferior system, when they could have a PC and all it entails for less than the previous investment in the Xbox. (I assume someone willing to pay all those monthly bills to play FFXI has some level of discretionary income)

Concerning the Amish? I drive by Amish buggies every day, I buy all my local produce from them, and I'd even go so far to say that I have some friends amongst their numbers; but I would never be so arrogant as to tell them my particular lifestyle and choices are better than theirs. I'd never tell them to buy a car because it's what I drive and it's better, but there's no denying that the car is superior to the buggy for your transportation needs. See the analogy?

In other words, I'm fully aware that plenty of people choose to play on Xbox, and that's fine, but there's no denying that you guys are playing the inferior copy of the game, for whatever reasons you have. There's no need to take offense, and certainly no need to toss childish aspersions. Need to get out more? Too FFXI-centric? We're playing an 8-yr old game, and have been doing so for years; pot, meet kettle.

(inb4 playin' with bitches' tits in the club, 6-figure bank accounts, private jets, etc.)
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#17 Sep 05 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Default
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:


Semantics, whatever.


I'll take that as your concession.

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The 10 minute window was just an example, and I assure you that a minute of unlimited Strategems +3 from the reset is making a huge difference in your damage output. Also, you are dead wrong about the utility of a serious Enmity- set.. stack -50, use Klimaform to make up for lost MACC, use Alacrity on your 2 best nukes, and spam til Klimaform is up. I spent a month tweaking my sets/strategy on HNM, and I always dealt more damage than I did using other strategies, as well as completely destroying the other nukers. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're knowledgeable, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.


It was the only example you gave and it wasn't a good one. And what you outlined above is not what you said in your previous post. You claimed the TR allowed you to use Ebullience non-stop for 10 minutes. The point I made was that it wasn't such a huge improvement over what you could do outside of two hour to warrant singling out as an example of how great TR is.

Quote:

Yes, I did. But let me elaborate so there's no doubt. SCH isn't RDM. Switching back and forth between Arts, with a few exceptions, is a terrible way to play the job. Either you're there to heal/support, or you're there to blow sh*t up; a SCH that tries to play both roles over the course of a fight becomes nothing more than a RDM-1, with all the Arts restrictions. Therefore, if you are fighting something that you want an all-purpose mage for, you bring a fkn RDM. Not a SCH. If you end up in a situation like this on SCH, you formed your party poorly (didn't plan ahead, didn't do your research, don't know party dynamics, joined a pickup, etc.), and you deserve to lose.

As for me and mine 'walking on water'... the game is 8 years old, most of us have been here for the better part of that, and the game is not rocket science. Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but dammit, I don't think basic competency from the people I choose to play with is asking too much at this point in the game's life.


No, you didn't. I asked you a specific question to which you have not answered. And again you respond by making it seem as if every time you fight anything, there is never a scary moment, never anything that doesn't necessarily go as planned and that no NM's in this game are capable of being so nasty as to require you to make adjustments on the fly. It has nothing to do with being a RDM -1. I called BS on your claim before and I do so again.

And the whole SCH isn't RDM argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said in any of my posts. Where did I once talk about switching between arts? Where did I talk about being an all-purpose mage. These are arguments pulled out of god only knows what by you. I asked you a simple question that was pretty straightforward. You went off on a tangent and ran with it.

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Just because Manafont is straightforward, does not mean that it isn't still immensely useful. Tabula Rasa may not be as simple, but that does not automatically mean it is therefore superior.


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I define 'useful' as 'having lots of useful uses.' Tabula Rasa has many, many more of those than Manafont does, and the low-MP argument for SCH/RDM is a nonstarter. I don't know about you, but I have to really try to run out of MP in most situations for it to happen. Manafont is only as useful as it is because it alleviates the one glaring flaw of BLM: MP restoration. I think once BLM/RDM gets Refresh, this will become more clear.


TR may have more uses than Manafont, but a lot of those uses are pretty rare and not all that spectacular. You haven't shown me "lots of useful uses." You've outlined plenty for sure, but few of them are noteworthy.

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Damn you really took that and ran with it, didn't you? There's no argument about saving money in my statement. The point I was trying to make was this: if one is playing FFXI on their xbox in 2010, one would assume they have an internet connection, and if they have no PC, it's likely one of their main sources of entertainment, so they're paying for internet, gold, and FFXI fees, just to play FFXI. I just can't fathom somebody jumping through all those hoops just to play FFXI on an inferior system, when they could have a PC and all it entails for less than the previous investment in the Xbox. (I assume someone willing to pay all those monthly bills to play FFXI has some level of discretionary income)


And again, you completely ignore the utility argument. Your comment only makes sense if the only thing you use your XBOX for is to play FFXI. I seriously doubt that is the case for just about anyone. And you're trying very hard to make one choice sound far more complicated than the other. The only hoop you have to jump through is to buy FFXI for XBOX. That's it. You don't have to pay a monthly gold fee. Whether or not you used a PC or XBOX you'd have to pay an internet fee and the monthly game fee. There is no difference between the too.

And there was an implicit argument about saving money or you wouldn't have pointed out that a PC that can run FFXI is cheaper "by a pretty good margin" and I doubt you would have tried to make the 360 choice sound more costly in the section above. I have a PC and an XBOX. I play absolutely zero games on my PC. I play a ton of console games. I'm not going to to buy another PC just to play one game that I can already play with the console I have. That involves jumping through a lot more hoops.

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Concerning the Amish? I drive by Amish buggies every day, I buy all my local produce from them, and I'd even go so far to say that I have some friends amongst their numbers; but I would never be so arrogant as to tell them my particular lifestyle and choices are better than theirs. I'd never tell them to buy a car because it's what I drive and it's better, but there's no denying that the car is superior to the buggy for your transportation needs. See the analogy?


That's touching, but it has nothing to do with why I pointed out your comment. You are playing a superior version of FFXI than I am on 360. I don't deny that. Your Amish comment was off base because your PC is only superior overall if all I use my XBOX for is to play FFXI. That is why I made the FFXI-centric comment. What you said just didn't seem pratical to me.

There is an arrogance both in the way you described the Amish (although I really don't care) and how you discuss the PC issue. Your arrogance would stem from the fact that you believe your lifestyle to be superior, regardless of whether or not you tell them. Again, I really don't care about your feelings about the Amish, so let's not make it about that. I just thought it was a poor analogy because it (and your argument as a whole) requires too many assumptions. And on top of that, I just find it silly. I'm not going to go buy a new PC to make SCH less clunky. I had a PC and a console before I started playing FFXI. My PC wouldn't support the game. My console did. It seemed like a pretty easy decision.

Edit: I did forget to add that this conversation has made me think about more creative ways to use Tabula Rasa and for that much at I appreciate the dialogue.

Also, there are a ton of typos and I'm in a hurry so I apologize!

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 12:54pm by Sasaraixx
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#18 Sep 05 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
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597 posts
I think Manafont is a great 2 hour, but it's overall utility in a clutch situation pales in comparison to TR.

The difference is, Manafont is idiot proof, TR is not. TR isn't a "cumbersome" 2 hour; SCH is a cumbersome job with a 2 hour that revolves around everything that makes SCH that. If you're playing SCH, you need to learn to be fluid with your macros regardless of what platform you're playing on. The only people who think TR is complicated to use are the same people have trouble playing SCH during normal endgame activities or XP pts.

You click Manafont and you have unlimited MP and can't be interrupted. Period. That is Manafont.

You activate Tabula Rasa and you can either stand there like an idiot and be useless or you can have a hybrid Manafont/Chainspell while making things AOE and nukes hit harder. TR is not the problem, players are the problem.
#19 Sep 05 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Quote:
I'll take that as your concession.


It's not a concession, I just have no desire to argue over semantics instead of the subject at hand, which was wasting the free Strategems that Tabula Rasa grants, over which there shouldn't really be any disagreement. If your Strategem recast is @0:00 and you use Tabula Rasa, you just wasted 3 Strategems (not 4, because one would ordinarily recharge over the minute duration of TR). If your recast is @1:00, you wasted 2 Strategems, and so on. The math is not situational.

Quote:
It was the only example you gave and it wasn't a good one. And what you outlined above is not what you said in your previous post. You claimed the TR allowed you to use Ebullience non-stop for 10 minutes. The point I made was that it wasn't such a huge improvement over what you could do outside of two hour to warrant singling out as an example of how great TR is.


The example I gave was of pinning monsters in Abyssea, and if you Ebullience your best nuke and helix every time, you will run out of Strategems about 4 minutes in. However, if you follow this strategy and Convert at the proper time, then use Tabula Rasa, you can extend your Ebullience nukes until the 9 minute mark, at which point the mob is a nuke or two away from death. Again, I spent a lot of time trying different strategies against those mobs, and I assure you that with proper management of timers, Tabula Rasa adds a metric @#%^ton of damage to your output. It's enough to make a 13-14 minute kill into a 10min kill, which is an enormous improvement no matter how you choose to look at it.

Quote:
TR may have more uses than Manafont, but a lot of those uses are pretty rare and not all that spectacular. You haven't shown me "lots of useful uses." You've outlined plenty for sure, but few of them are noteworthy.


Ok then. I've already been over how to use TR to increase damage output, so lets go over some other noteworthy uses:

-Einherjar crowd control: Use Manifestation+Alacrity on Bind/Gravity for crowd control; lulls between pulls do help recharge strategems but you will eventually run out, which is when you hit TR for a minute of epic Bindga/Graviga, and have a full stock of Strategems waiting for the next pull. Depending on how deep the chamber is you might run dry towards the end, but on most wings you'll be the hero of your Sleepga contingent.

I don't do WoE so I have no idea if Bind/Gravity even work on those mobs, but if it does this would be really helpful in there, I'm sure.

-Pre-melee zerg buffga: I started doing this back during ACP for the Qu'bia fight, of all things... Penury/Accession every Enhancing spell in the book, starting with your Strategem stock and using Tabula Rasa to finish the job. Protect/Shell/Regen/Stoneskin/Blink/Phalanx/Enspell/Storm/Aquaveil/Barelement/Barstatus go a long way toward making those melee invincible.

-Goddamn Soulflayers: This is especially effective in Nyzul Isle, where you're constantly fighting nasty sh*t with fun status afflictions around every corner. Chariots, Khimaira, and Soulflayers in particular spam nasty statuses; especially the NM versions, and things go south in a hurry if Tribulation goes off and your Strategems are all spent. No problem though, use TR, get rid of that nonsense, and toss SS, Regen, Cure, whatever at half cost etc. I singlehandedly saved more runs than I care to recall with this.

-Raisega: Dynamis, of course. Self-explanatory. Not used often, but like Chainspell Raise, it has its' place.

Again, Manafont is no doubt useful, but it doesn't allow the job to do anything it wasn't doing already; it just lets you do it a little longer. It does not compare to the utility of Tabula Rasa.



As for the rest of your post, meh. There's no need to defend your hardware choices, I could really, really care less. To me, having an PC and choosing not to play FFXI on it is /facepalm worthy, but as you pointed out, you have your reasons, so great! Have fun, don't care. However:

Quote:
I'm not going to go buy a new PC to make SCH less clunky.


Making SCH 'less clunky' is about 3% of the benefit of using Windower; if you know how to write XML (or have someone like me supply you with theirs, which is quite comprehensive if I may say so myself!), you become capable of things that simply are not possible/feasible otherwise. I don't know if you simply don't know the depth of the program, or choose to downplay it for whatever reason, but... it's like night and day. It's simply a whole new game. Like I keep saying, to each their own, but I can't recommend it nearly enough, especially for SCH.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#20 Sep 06 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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10,813 posts
alexbadass wrote:
Ok.. listen to this, Scholar has All the nukes that blm get at the same levels or damm close to it. They got raise2 wich was Whm only but nope not anymore. Rdm was only job who could solo Various Nms by kiting, now with the Mp that sch get i think its called accension something like that and all schs have helioplex, i think its called that wich can be used for Dot. So how is this fair, scholar gets spells pretty much same time as Blm (blm Was Strongest in DD nuke until scholar came along. Now the ONLY redeeming thing is sch dosent get Aga spells, but when you see a secondary job get thunder4+ all the spells in the world you start thinking damm, i wasted all that time to lvl Blm.


500+ posts with no ban = another blight on alla mods' records.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#21 Sep 07 2010 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
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479 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:

The example I gave was of pinning monsters in Abyssea, and if you Ebullience your best nuke and helix every time, you will run out of Strategems about 4 minutes in. However, if you follow this strategy and Convert at the proper time, then use Tabula Rasa, you can extend your Ebullience nukes until the 9 minute mark, at which point the mob is a nuke or two away from death. Again, I spent a lot of time trying different strategies against those mobs, and I assure you that with proper management of timers, Tabula Rasa adds a metric @#%^ton of damage to your output. It's enough to make a 13-14 minute kill into a 10min kill, which is an enormous improvement no matter how you choose to look at it.


So your example was based on abusing a game mechanic, along with convert AND a full set of meds on NM's in Abyssea that you could already defeat without too much trouble? That's great but I'm not really impressed.

Quote:
-Einherjar crowd control: Use Manifestation+Alacrity on Bind/Gravity for crowd control; lulls between pulls do help recharge strategems but you will eventually run out, which is when you hit TR for a minute of epic Bindga/Graviga, and have a full stock of Strategems waiting for the next pull. Depending on how deep the chamber is you might run dry towards the end, but on most wings you'll be the hero of your Sleepga contingent.


I don't do Einherjar, so I will have to take your word that you would eventually run out of charges while doing crowd control and that your 2hr would be *necessary* in order to make the run successful.


Quote:
-Pre-melee zerg buffga: I started doing this back during ACP for the Qu'bia fight, of all things... Penury/Accession every Enhancing spell in the book, starting with your Strategem stock and using Tabula Rasa to finish the job. Protect/Shell/Regen/Stoneskin/Blink/Phalanx/Enspell/Storm/Aquaveil/Barelement/Barstatus go a long way toward making those melee invincible.


Aside from some of those buffs being superfluous, I guess that is impressive if you are the only mage in that zerg party, which I doubt because I can't imagine your melees not wanting Haste. But it no doubt has it's place. I actually do thing this is probably the best example you've given to date.

Quote:
-Goddamn Soulflayers: This is especially effective in Nyzul Isle, where you're constantly fighting nasty sh*t with fun status afflictions around every corner. Chariots, Khimaira, and Soulflayers in particular spam nasty statuses; especially the NM versions, and things go south in a hurry if Tribulation goes off and your Strategems are all spent. No problem though, use TR, get rid of that nonsense, and toss SS, Regen, Cure, whatever at half cost etc. I singlehandedly saved more runs than I care to recall with this.


Because it's the morning after a holiday and I'm cranky, I'll take a page from your book on this one. Surely this is not a noteworthy use of a Scholar's ability. It goes against the entire purpose of the job. Had your party brought a WHM, you wouldn't find yourself in a situation to need a 2hr . . .

Quote:
especially the NM versions, and things go south in a hurry if Tribulation goes off and your Strategems are all spent.


Surely this type of thing never happens to you! NM's and the like can't catch you with your pants down if you've prepared accordingly.

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:

There's absolutely no reason any mob should catch you with your pants down if you do some research and plan accordingly.

In my experience, human error/stupidity is what causes those situations; to which I say: Play better, with less retards. I didn't level SCH to play faux-RDM and pick up the pieces when idiots fail.

If you end up in a situation like this on SCH, you formed your party poorly (didn't plan ahead, didn't do your research, don't know party dynamics, joined a pickup, etc.), and you deserve to lose.


:D


Quote:
-Raisega: Dynamis, of course. Self-explanatory. Not used often, but like Chainspell Raise, it has its' place.


I'm pretty sure you can't do this, but I assume you know that and are instead referring to Penury/Alacrity spamming of raises. I seriously hope you are not trying to put that in the same category of usefulness as Chainspell Raise.

Quote:
Again, Manafont is no doubt useful, but it doesn't allow the job to do anything it wasn't doing already; it just lets you do it a little longer. It does not compare to the utility of Tabula Rasa.


Tabula Rasa is exactly the same. Nothing that you listed about isn't something that the job could already do. It allowed you to cast more nukes, more buffs, more enfeebles and more raises.

And in general I found your most recent post to be quite interesting. Previously you talked about SCH not being a Faux RDM, Tabula Rasa not being an oh sh*t button, and how proper party set up would eliminate the need for such a use, but aside from crowd control those are exactly the responses you gave.

Quote:
As for the rest of your post, meh. There's no need to defend your hardware choices, I could really, really care less. To me, having an PC and choosing not to play FFXI on it is /facepalm worthy, but as you pointed out, you have your reasons, so great! Have fun, don't care. However:

Making SCH 'less clunky' is about 3% of the benefit of using Windower; if you know how to write XML (or have someone like me supply you with theirs, which is quite comprehensive if I may say so myself!), you become capable of things that simply are not possible/feasible otherwise. I don't know if you simply don't know the depth of the program, or choose to downplay it for whatever reason, but... it's like night and day. It's simply a whole new game. Like I keep saying, to each their own, but I can't recommend it nearly enough, especially for SCH.


And I find your suggestion of buying a new computer to play a video when the system you are using has absolutely zero problems running said game equally /facepalm worthy. If you want to use a PC to write HTML to allow you to do things the game developers did not intend, more power to you. I honestly don't care. I just found your arrogance on the subject and your inability to pull yourself out of your FFXI world to be entertaining to say the least.

But snarkiness aside, your last post did provide a few points to consider. Tabula Rasa is obviously the more versatile of the two abilities and you have provided examples to show that. You have also given me some ideas of things I'd like to try myself (and for that thank you!) Perhaps I was rash in decreeing Manafont to be superior. I do still think that you are underestimating the usefulness of that particular 2 hour.
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#22 Sep 07 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Quote:
So your example was based on abusing a game mechanic, along with convert AND a full set of meds on NM's in Abyssea that you could already defeat without too much trouble? That's great but I'm not really impressed.


Abuse is in the eye of the beholder.. the monster can and will kill the sh*t out of you if you make a wrong move; but with movement speed, you actually can outrun something so that it can never touch you, and even continue to cast on it with proper timing. The only difference is that pinning something well enough where you can get such a fast kill actually takes some practice and, dare I say it, skill. In my opinion, killing Genbu by constantly kiting it out of range is much more of an exploit of game mechanics.

Also, how exactly are you defeating these NMs solo without pinning without too much trouble? If you're talking about bringing a normal party that's fine, but it's actually much less efficient than my method. Even if a party of 6 kills it in two minutes, they're still using more Visitant status between them than I am, especially when you add travel time to the kill time.

Quote:
Aside from some of those buffs being superfluous, I guess that is impressive if you are the only mage in that zerg party, which I doubt because I can't imagine your melees not wanting Haste. But it no doubt has it's place. I actually do thing this is probably the best example you've given to date.


Of course you're the only mage in this party; when you anticipate a battle to last a minute, tops, and your melee are using HF, MS, etc., Haste loses some of its' luster. No other job can give you that many buffs in so little time, and they're balanced pretty well between offensive and defensive. Ask yourself what a RDM or WHM would cast in preparation for a zerg and compare; I'd certainly prefer the SCH's buffs over them. Also, if you're fast with TR buffs, you can switch to Dark Arts and throw nukes once the melee engage to add some more damage, since it's not like they're going to be taking much through all the buffs you gave them.

Quote:
Surely this is not a noteworthy use of a Scholar's ability. It goes against the entire purpose of the job. Had your party brought a WHM, you wouldn't find yourself in a situation to need a 2hr . . .


I'm curious as to why you think using Accession on spells that SCH gets natively is going against the entire purpose of the job...?

Quote:
Surely this type of thing never happens to you! NM's and the like can't catch you with your pants down if you've prepared accordingly.


Getting caught with your pants down, and running into an especially Tribulation-happy Soulflayer aren't really the same thing; you kinda expect that sort of thing out of a Soulflayer. Getting caught with your pants down would be more like running around in Dark Arts and then getting surprised into switching roles; like I said before, I take invites to heal/support, or to blow sh*t up. When I did Nyzul I was usually there to heal/support, so using Addendum: White and Accession with my native spells to cure status debuffs? That's my job. Are we fighting a monster that uses a ton of AoE status debuffs? Better save my charges for Accession and have TR ready if it gets ugly, to keep things moving. The point of using Tabula Rasa in this instance is not survival; that shouldn't be an issue, period. The point is to use your spells and abilities with the proper timing to speed things along in a timed instance; TR can be extremely helpful to that end.

Besides, what's a non-mythic WHM going to do when a Soulflayer uses Tribulation 4 times in a row? Wish he was on SCH.

Quote:
There's absolutely no reason any mob should catch you with your pants down if you do some research and plan accordingly.


I'd say that knowing about Tribulation in advance, recognizing that you're the one on status cure duty, keeping Strategems in reserve for Accession, staying in Addendum: White, and using Tabula Rasa if necessary to keep Accession, and by extension the party, moving in a timed zone, would be a pass for doing the research and planning accordingly. I'm sorry but you'll have to try harder than that..

Quote:
I'm pretty sure you can't do this, but I assume you know that and are instead referring to Penury/Alacrity spamming of raises. I seriously hope you are not trying to put that in the same category of usefulness as Chainspell Raise.


Of course Chainspell Raise is faster. But, so is a TR SCH faster at raising than a non-TR SCH.

Quote:
Tabula Rasa is exactly the same. Nothing that you listed about isn't something that the job could already do. It allowed you to cast more nukes, more buffs, more enfeebles and more raises.


Well ok, if you want to take the broadest view possible.. we are mages after all. The fact remains that we can cast a wide variety of magic, and we can alter it in several ways with unlimited Strategems. Manafont is still just free MP on a job that's a one-trick pony. Doesn't compare.

Quote:
Previously you talked about SCH not being a Faux RDM, Tabula Rasa not being an oh sh*t button, and how proper party set up would eliminate the need for such a use, but aside from crowd control those are exactly the responses you gave.


Not exactly; neither of my Dark Arts examples would remotely qualify as emergency usage. Spamming Raises isn't either; that's speeding up the triage after a wipe, not saying osh*t and preventing the wipe. Pre-fight buffs hardly qualifies. Only the Soulflayer example kinda fits, and in that case it's not exactly an osh*t situation; the main purpose is to speed things up in a timed zone.

That's twice now that you took my 'faux-RDM' comment out of context; that applies to situations where you're switching Arts too much and trying to handle situations that would normally require Addenda to perform effectively, thus making you ineffective. A RDM would fill that role much better, hence 'faux-RDM.'

Quote:
I just found your arrogance on the subject and your inability to pull yourself out of your FFXI world to be entertaining to say the least.


Stating and defending facts is not arrogance, it just appears that way when you stubbornly insist on being on the other side. And again with the personal? I don't even understand how you can possibly get that impression through message boards; and last time I checked, your posts are just as long-winded, nitpicky, argumentative, and mired in semantics as mine are, so again, pot, kettle, etc.

Quote:
Tabula Rasa is obviously the more versatile of the two abilities and you have provided examples to show that. You have also given me some ideas of things I'd like to try myself (and for that thank you!) Perhaps I was rash in decreeing Manafont to be superior.


I'm glad to have been of some use, but I don't understand how you can make several posts trying to pick apart every point I make, tossing personal insults while you're at it, and then agree with me out of nowhere at the end of one of them. Next time just lead off with that and save us both some time.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#23 Sep 07 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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479 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:


I'm glad to have been of some use, but I don't understand how you can make several posts trying to pick apart every point I make, tossing personal insults while you're at it, and then agree with me out of nowhere at the end of one of them. Next time just lead off with that and save us both some time.


I will respond to the rest of your post later (or I can send you a PM as I think our default scores indicate that no one else wants to read any more from us on this subject,) but did want to address this quickly. You misunderstood me. I still don't agree with you. I never once claimed that Tabula Rasa wasn't more versatile. As a job SCH is clearly more versatile than BLM, so it only follows that its two hour would be as well. That was never the topic at hand or at least that's not what I was talking about. For me, all of your responses only reconfirmed what I thought from the beginning.

What did change was that after spending all of this time debating with you I realized that it was as silly for me to proclaim one two-hour as superior to the other. In the course of conversing with you your arguments did not lead me to believe that TR is the better two hour. As I was thinking about why I initially said that I preferred Manafont, my reasons didn't seem that convincing either, partly because we could define usefulness in a multitude of ways and because what you consider useful I might not and for a bunch of different reasons . . . My comment about you pointing out examples was just an acknowledgment that you've given me a few ideas of things I would like to try myself on SCH.

There was no malice in my words. I found some of your remarks to be arrogant and I merely pointed that out. I did not mention it as a way of attacking you as a person. I didn't view your calling my posts equally as arrogant as a personal insult. I know I can be long winded and I do like to argue!

Quote:
Stating and defending facts is not arrogance, it just appears that way when you stubbornly insist on being on the other side.


No, but being unable to pull yourself out of your own head to realize that some of what you say is opinion and not fact is arrogance.
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#24 Sep 07 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
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271 posts
Quote:
Tastes Great.


Less filling.

Quote:
Tastes Great!


Less filling!!

Quote:
Tastes Great!!!!!


Less filling!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Tastes Great!!!!!!!!!!


Less filling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Tastes Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Less filling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Tastes Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Less filling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(your conversation is going nowhere)

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 2:41pm by Ahrana
____________________________
Cerberus
75 Whm
#25 Sep 07 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
19 posts
Posting not to take part in the manafont vs. Tabula Rosa debate, but to address this. As a white mage it really rubbed me the wrong way.

Quote:
Besides, what's a non-mythic WHM going to do when a Soulflayer uses Tribulation 4 times in a row? Wish he was on SCH.


As a longtime white mage, it may have been the case that one time a white mage may have envied scholars accession. After Esuna, I really doubt that was the case. I was the white mage in 2 statics that got Nyzul 100, and I actually would beg for soulflayer floors on white mage. They are a total joke to a good white mage. Esuna recast is 30 seconds, but with haste on yourself and haste gear, the recast "seems" almost floored. (I do white mage in Einherjar as well, it is rare I have to wait more than 2 or 3 seconds for Esuna even on the spammiest of AOE mobs.)

Even using the extreme example of a Soulflayer using 4 tribulations in a row, I really doubt a white mage is crying in the corner wishing they were on scholar. Go into misery when you see Soulflayers, stand by party and watch the fun. Esuna, Divine Seal Erase, Esuna, Curaga 3, Cura, Benediction, Esuna. Just pick any combination of those. I can't remember ever dying to Soulflayers in Nyzul in 100s of floors.

One thing that has always bothered me about Scholar forums, is how so many Scholars try to prove their point by denigrating other jobs. Sure, Scholar is a great job, but it doesn't blow white mage away. It has some nice features that White Mage doesn't receive, but the opposite is true as well. I always find it comes down more to the player in most situations. I form a lot of parties for end game events, and I am just happy to have a competent dedicated healer, whether it is Scholar or White Mage.

As for zerging, I don't think most Kclub drks are going to accept no haste, but of course Scholar/white mage at 80 can haste. Kind of like how a 80whm/40sch can accession stoneskin/etc, then throw in a benediction halfway through a true zerg. A lot of approaches work with competent players.
#26 Sep 07 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Quote:
I will respond to the rest of your post later (or I can send you a PM as I think our default scores indicate that no one else wants to read any more from us on this subject,)


Agreed lol. Although, all you rate-downers could, y'know, contribute and try to liven up this section of the forums a little.

Quote:
being unable to pull yourself out of your own head to realize that some of what you say is opinion and not fact is arrogance.


I'm usually pretty clear whether I'm stating fact or opinion, I do realize the difference between the two.

Quote:
As a longtime white mage, it may have been the case that one time a white mage may have envied scholars accession...


You're absolutely right, I haven't partied with WHMs much since they got fixed so I'm always forgetting about all their new toys.

Quote:
One thing that has always bothered me about Scholar forums, is how so many Scholars try to prove their point by denigrating other jobs.


Well... I think that's an issue of perspective. You have to realize that SCH is essentially WHM and BLM rolled into one job, with metamagic abilities to distinguish it; it stands to reason that we would naturally compare ourselves to the specialists in each school of magic. I am more than happy to concede the healer role back to WHM, which is well deserved after the effort SE put into fixing it. (That, and healing is zzz for me =p ) In the case of BLM though, they still haven't given me a compelling reason to ever use mine over SCH (except for obvious instances where -ga/Stun are needed, etc).

Look at it this way; WHM spent years as the second-tier healer behind RDM, and once they rolled SCH out it got even worse. But, after the community bitched and bitched, they eventually fixed WHM and gave us the awesome healer we have now. Our only hope for a BLM revamp is to be as loud about it as possible, so if anything we're doing them a favour. ;)
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#27 Sep 08 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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957 posts
Quote:
Look at it this way; WHM spent years as the second-tier healer behind RDM, and once they rolled SCH out it got even worse.


Actually, once SCH came out (And by correlation, /SCH), WHM pulled miles ahead of RDM. SCH wasn't exactly better either, only at status removal; and that got fixed by Esuna.

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#28 Sep 08 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Actually, once SCH came out (And by correlation, /SCH), WHM pulled miles ahead of RDM. SCH wasn't exactly better either, only at status removal; and that got fixed by Esuna.


I wouldn't say *miles* but /SCH was a big boost to WHM for sure. You're forgetting how boss AoE Stoneskin was at 75 too, SCH was still outclassing WHM in pure damage mitigation at that point.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#29 Sep 08 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Typically, I'd just say WHMs were largely underestimated while RDMs, and later SCHs, were glorified a bit more than they deserved. Sadly, I still don't feel the WHM love is near where it should be, but there's nothing you can do about stubborn players who won't change their ways even when SE whacks their fingers with a hammer.
#30 Oct 13 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I admit I didn't read every post here, so I'm not sure if this was covered. But if you set up your in games macros right, you can push the same combo 3 times during Tabula Rasa, to have the same affect as windower(which btw, doesn't do this autmatically for you, you still have to write the macro, or use and configure the spellcast plugin), so using the crutch of playing on console isn't really an arguement, just learn to write macros better.
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#31 Oct 13 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Bikpik wrote:
if you set up your in games macros right, you can push the same combo 3 times during Tabula Rasa, to have the same affect as windower(which btw, doesn't do this autmatically for you, you still have to write the macro, or use and configure the spellcast plugin)


...why would you even want to? One in-game macro for 3-4 strategems guarantees that you aren't blinking any of those, so you're getting locked in place for a good 5-6 seconds whenever you use it, not to mention wasting macro space on a redundant command. It's really not hard to just press your Strategem macros in sequence; once you learn the timing you can spam them at max speed and still blink every animation. I have never understood the fascination with pressing one macro for all Strategems during TR.

Bikpik wrote:
so using the crutch of playing on console isn't really an arguement, just learn to write macros better.


Of course it is, it's night and day, apples and oranges, etc. Learning to write macros in-game is certainly important, but there's still no comparison between the two.

Bikpik's Sig wrote:
I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass


Regardless of your actual argument (which was retarded), this:

Bikpik wrote:
I admit I didn't read every post here, so I'm not sure if this was covered.


..pretty much ensures that this falls into the latter category. Read, then post.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#32 Oct 13 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Sasaraixx wrote:
Just because you are a tactician does not mean you can plan for every single possible outcome.
I'd like to give this thread a needed dose of relevant TVTropes, so here.
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#33 Oct 14 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
...why would you even want to? One in-game macro for 3-4 strategems guarantees that you aren't blinking any of those, so you're getting locked in place for a good 5-6 seconds whenever you use it, not to mention wasting macro space on a redundant command. It's really not hard to just press your Strategem macros in sequence; once you learn the timing you can spam them at max speed and still blink every animation. I have never understood the fascination with pressing one macro for all Strategems during TR.


Like I said learn to write better macros, because you can use in game macros to activate all your strategems, and still blink for each one, it just takes 3 macros instead of just 1. And if you set them up right, at most it would take 3 macros to fire off any spell, as opposed to the 1 for windower/spellcast, so instead of <1 second to fire off a spell, it'll take 1 full second, and if you're dot kiting (which 99% of sch solos are) then you can fire off the first 2 as you're running, and only stop to fire off the third, so it takes the same amount of time as windower/spellcast. And as for macro space, we have more than enough room to set up macros this way, you just need to learn to organize better.

I admit I'm a spellcast user now, but when I first started Sch, I just used in-game macros, and the only difference now, is the amount of lines I have in my actual in-game macros. Instead of pressing 1 button to do everything, I had to press 3-4, but I still never had any problems soloing anything. And the only reason I do use spellcast now, is because I've gotten lazy and I do only want to press 1 button, but it has had no effect on my actual soloing skill

Quote:
..pretty much ensures that this falls into the latter category. Read, then post.


If you couldn't tell, I was agreeing with your first post (but I didn't read the rest of the garbage you 2 were spewing).
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#34 Oct 14 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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Like I said learn to write better macros, because you can use in game macros to activate all your strategems, and still blink for each one, it just takes 3 macros instead of 1.


No sh*t. That's what I was advocating, in case you didn't notice.

Quote:
And as for macro space, we have more than enough room to set up macros this way, you just need to learn to organize better.


I'm not sure if you're directing this at me, but I assure you I don't need advice from you on how to organize my sh*t.

Quote:
And the only reason I do use spellcast now, is because I've gotten lazy and I do only want to press 1 button, but it has had no effect on my actual soloing skill


You use spellcast so you can be 'lazy'? And you want to sit there and preach to me about how to use it? You wonder why I'm unable to take anything you're saying seriously?

Quote:
If you couldn't tell, I was agreeing with your first post (but I didn't read the rest of the garbage you 2 were spewing).


Coming from the guy who decides to necro a month-old thread with this kind of nonsense? Right.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#35 Oct 14 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Provided good gear and if the SCH dedicates his charges and stays in dark arts SCH has been a better nuker then BLM for awhile now, most of us career BLMs have known this(at least those of us who can do math) and come to terms with it. SE clearly does not intend to change that, so no reason to waste time complaining.

Quote:
No. Ancient Magic, AMII, ga nukes, ja spells, not to mention utility spells like stun, enfeebles, sleepgas and elemental dots
Correction: "No. BLM has -agas useful in like 5% of the game, and stun" the rest SCH can do equal or better. Oh and lol @elemental dots compared to helix's.
#36 Oct 14 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Correction: "No. BLM has -agas useful in like 5% of the game, and stun" the rest SCH can do equal or better. Oh and lol @elemental dots compared to helix's.


This isn't as true as it used to be. Now that BLM has Aspir II, Refresh, and Convert, they will outlast you on anything with MP, and I would've given up working on my Magian staves long ago if I had to do them on SCH; if you can find a good camp, aga-burning is 2-3 times more kills per hour.

Also don't hate on Burn, I <3 Burn!
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#37 Oct 15 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Stun...? Sure you can Raise II, but can you tractor their dead bodies to safety? lol
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#38 Oct 15 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Correction: "No. BLM has -agas useful in like 5% of the game, and stun" the rest SCH can do equal or better. Oh and lol @elemental dots compared to helix's.


This isn't as true as it used to be. Now that BLM has Aspir II, Refresh, and Convert, they will outlast you on anything with MP, and I would've given up working on my Magian staves long ago if I had to do them on SCH; if you can find a good camp, aga-burning is 2-3 times more kills per hour.

Also don't hate on Burn, I <3 Burn!


I gotta agree with this post, /rdm has made mp not much of an issue for blm or for sch and aspir II Ive seen to be quite powerful. Also with most of the relevant content being inside abyssea, the use of temp items makes mp even less of an issue. As for agas while true it isn't useful in every situation, it is useful in magian trials and blm are VERY sought after for various exp camps like worms or fell cleave groups.

I personally have yet to be asked to heal on sch after 75. To me I'm more like a slightly weaker single target nuker except when I use ebullience at which point I'm on par or slightly ahead of blm in nuking and I have no access to any aoe nuking and I just happen to have access to reraise 2 and raise 2.

I'm not saying sch needs a boost or anything, I'm just saying blm really isn't as bad off as most people think.
#39 Oct 29 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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alexbadass wrote:
all schs have helioplex

Helio- means having to do with the sun, -plex is a suffix often used to describe apartments and such. Therefore, all scholars have an apartment on the sun. I know what I'm leveling.

edit:
Wikipedia wrote:
Helioplex is a proprietary name by Neutrogena for a patented formulation of broad spectrum UVA/UVB skin protection containing Avobenzone and Oxybenzone.

Okay, so actually scholars just don't get sunburned. I'm Irish so I'll still level it.

Edited, Oct 29th 2010 1:53pm by Seitekifu
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#40 Oct 29 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Normally I'd bitch about the necro, but I lol'd at this one so I approve!
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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