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#1 Sep 08 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I know you pretty much want to gear for INT, but I was curious if there is a tipping point where X MAB > Y INT?

Such as, Yigit Feet Vs. Goliard Clogs, is 1 INT > 2 MAB for Helix?
or Prudence Torque Vs Proc' Uggy is 5 INT > 8 MAB for Helix?

Thanks in advance!
#2 Sep 08 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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It depends on all the gear you're using and the INT difference but usually its MAB +2.5 > INT +1. Sometimes it can be as low as MAB +2 > INT +1 but it depends on the rest of your gear.

Using this formula which I've found to give almost exact numbers:
[(yourINT-targetINT)+25]*Staff*Day/Weather*(yourMAB/targetMDB)*Damage Adjustment*Ebullience

Lets say your gear is this(typical for a 75 SCH without endgame):
NQ Elemental Staves
Bugard Strap + 1: INT +1
Phantom Thalum: INT +2
Af Hat: INT +5
Elemental Torque
Moldivite Earring: MAB +5
Cunning Earring: INT +1
Errant Body: INT +10
Yigit Hands: INT +5 MAB +2
Snow Ring x2: INT +10
Rainbow Cape: INT +3
Penitent's Rope: INT +5
Errant Slops: INT +7
Yigit Feet: INT+3 MAB +2
Cream Puff: INT +7

Total: INT +58 MAB +9
I don't know a taru's base INT at 75 as SCH/RDM but this site says 77 so I'll use that.
And lets pick Puddings because well they are the most common thing to nuke, they have INT 89.
Only Weather bonus will be used.

[(135-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.29 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f166

Lets swap Moldivite for a Morion +1 so it will be MAB +5 vs. INT +2

[(137-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.24 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f164

So a difference of 2 points of damage, now lets use MAB +4 instead of the Moldivite.

[(135-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.28 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f164

So using the gear mentioned against Puddings it takes MAB +2.5 to beat INT +1.

Now lets use your gear choices that you mentioned.

Goliard vs. Yigit Feet:

[(136-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.27 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f165

Yigit wins by 1 point of damage.

Prudence vs. Uggy:

Prudence: [(140-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.29 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f177

Uggy: [(135-89)+25] * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.37 * 1.25 * 1.2 = f176

Prudence wins by 1 point of damage.
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#3 Sep 08 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for that, This is what my setup will look like at 75 currently (things may change with the upgrade of gear and what not).

ITem - INT - MAB
HQ Staves
Bugard +1 - 1 - 0
Phantom - 2 - 0
AF+1 Hat - 5 - 0
Enlightening Torque - 3 - 0
Moldy - 0 - 5
Abyssal - 2 - 0
Errant - 10 - 0
Yigit Hands - 5 - 2
Tamas - 5 - 0
Snow - 5 - 0
Pentitent's Rope - 5 - 0
Gleeman's - 5 - 0
Maha - 8 - 0
Yigit - 3 - 2
Cream Puff- 7

65 INT, 9 MAB
77 INT Person

Now, here are a few things I did to see what would be better in certain slots, and I've come to certain parts that are, odd.

Note: I didn't use any Damage Adjustment, because I figured 89 INT wouldn't be to bad of an estimate for most mobs around that level, and I'm not using Ebullience.

BASE
[(142 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.29 * 1.0 * 1.0 = 133.8


Yigit Hands -> Maha Hands (+1 INt, -2 MAB)
Yigit Feet -> Goliard Shoes (+1 INT, -2 MAB)
Note: Not doing both at once, but meaning for both cases, as the same thing happens.
[(143 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.27 * 1 * 1 = 126.9 Yigit Hands/Feet Wins

Enlightening Torque -> Uggy (-3 INt, +8 MAB)
[(139 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.37 * 1.0 * 1.0 = 129.9 Enlightening Torque wins

Moldy -> Morion +1 (+2 INt, -5 MAB)
[(144 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.24 * 1.0 * 1.0 = 125.4 Moldy Wins

Abyssal -> Novio (-2 INT, +7 MAB)
[(140 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.0 * 1.0 = 130.7 Abyssal Wins

Now, I'm confused at Moldy -> Morion +1, and Abyssal -> Novio. 2 INT is not worth giving up 5 MAB for the first case, but 7 MAB is not with giving up 2 INT in the second case.

If you wouldn't mind going over my numbers, to see if I'm right or not.

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 12:24am by klownzor
#4 Sep 08 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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If memory serves (and it probably doesn't), you floor after each multiplication.

EDIT: Even if you don't, your calculated base figure was wrong - it should be ~127.3. (You apparently started with a total INT of 146 at first.)

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 9:42pm by MDenham
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#5 Sep 08 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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You have 66 INT not 65 in gear and food.
66+77 = 143
BASE should be:
[(143 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.29 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f128

Morion +1 instead of Moldy:
[(145 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.24 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f127

Novio instead of Abyssal:
[(141 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f132

Uggy instead of Enlightened:
[(140 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.37 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f131

Now if you were to choose all 3 MAB options over INT.
Uggy + Novio + Moldy:
[(138 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.44 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f134

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 10:31pm by Zagen
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#6 Sep 09 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
EDIT: Even if you don't, your calculated base figure was wrong - it should be ~127.3. (You apparently started with a total INT of 146 at first.)


Oh whoops, that'll cause a lot of problems. Thanks a lot!


Quote:
You have 66 INT not 65 in gear and food.
66+77 = 143
BASE should be:
[(143 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.29 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f128

Morion +1 instead of Moldy:
[(145 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.24 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f127

Novio instead of Abyssal:
[(141 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f132

Uggy instead of Enlightened:
[(140 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.37 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f131

Now if you were to choose all 3 MAB options over INT.
Uggy + Novio + Moldy:
[(138 - 89) + 25] * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.44 * 1.0 * 1.0 = f134


Ahh, that comes out much better, thank you a lot too!
#7 Sep 09 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Further to helix spells, while I love them for soloing, im wondering if anyone has used them against bigger mobs. Outside of Besieged and Campaign, I've never really cast them much since your average monster dies too quickly for them to be of any use. Anyone have examples of big targets they've used them on and what sort of resist rates you get?
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#8 Sep 09 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Sky god wise, the best I've done is Noctohelix on Byakko for around 120, that initial dmg was pretty consistent but I dont know if it lasted full duration.

I can usually get around 140 cryo's on Zipacna and Despot, I havent done Ulli in ages so I dont have a clue what I'd do on him.


Because of the near constant double weather I can hover around 80-100 hydrohelixes on the porroggo madmes in salvage.

Einherjar I typically avoid using them for crowd control's sake and I'm usually assigned to erasega duty or something.


I've done upwards of 250 on iriz and closer to 200 on Dea as well.

If you have any specific questions I can go test it out. No sea access so never done any sea mobs, however
#9 Sep 09 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I was on sch last night in sea.

With Ebullience (since they were followed up by 5/5 MV):

Jailer of Faith
Anemohelix on windsday: 117 (very depressed on this one)

Jailer of Fortitude:
Cryohelix on windsday: ~200 (was either 197 or 203 I can't remember)

I did Ix'Aern (mnk) too but I don't remember, lower than Fortitude though.

#10 Sep 09 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ix'Aerns work out lovely
Jailer of Faith, Fortitude, Justice, Prudence and Hope are also pretty week to it.
I can get Fortitude down to 70% from helixes alone in the time it takes the rest of the alliance to kill the balls.

Sky, Byakko, Despot, Faust, MG, Zipanca, Ulli are all good candidates as well. I've actually duo'd Faust with a RDM in under 10 minutes with Helix as the main source of damage.

It works out nicely in KS99's too. Behemoth in particular; since it's usually a kited fight where hate is important.

Also works nicely in Ultima. I haven't had the chance of working with it in Omega tho.



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#11 Sep 10 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Helixing the Ix'Aerns can be pretty frustrating though. Just when you cast a fresh Ebullineced and MV'd helix, the peckers will always Depuration.

Still rapes them, you just have to cast it twice as much.

#12 Sep 11 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ix'Aerns work out lovely
Jailer of Faith, Fortitude, Justice, Prudence and Hope are also pretty week to it.
I can get Fortitude down to 70% from helixes alone in the time it takes the rest of the alliance to kill the balls.

Sky, Byakko, Despot, Faust, MG, Zipanca, Ulli are all good candidates as well. I've actually duo'd Faust with a RDM in under 10 minutes with Helix as the main source of damage.

It works out nicely in KS99's too. Behemoth in particular; since it's usually a kited fight where hate is important.

Also works nicely in Ultima. I haven't had the chance of working with it in Omega tho.
Out of interest, do you have any merits in Helix Dmg/Acc? Do you use Modus Veritas (merited or otherwise) to get that damage on JoF?
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#13 Sep 12 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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I do have 5/5 Helix Merits; and I normally Modus any mob that doesn't need to be slept on the first one. But I do not have any Modus Veritas Helixes

Right now, a Cryohelix on non-ice/fireday does 201 damage on the dot for me. The 30% figure is from this.
I could probably get it lower on Icesday; or if someone casted burn on it <_<

I do have to deal with him casting Helixes back at me; but JoF has such a pitfull INT it rarely does any significant damage.



Edited, Sep 12th 2009 10:09am by Drakonite
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