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SCH being ignoredFollow

#1 Sep 02 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Is it just me that has noticed sch gets ignored by most ppl on the game i can stand in WG for afk for a few hrs then check shouts and i see shouts for missions nyzul, assaults etc and i can see "x mission {Do you need it} ???/??? whm rdm {Can I have it}" or "x mission {do you need it} ???/??? blm {Can I have it}" i just wanna know are ppl still ignorant to what a sch can do or do they just ignore us.

and today someone asked in ls "any blm 61-75 wanna manaburn" I asked if they wanted a sch and they said they I'll let you know and didn't hear anything after i said that sch can nuke really well.

oh and last 2 things how many schs get asked all the time for haste just to keep saying sch doesnt get haste, and why do ppl expect sch to play like rdm always switching between healing, enfeebling, sleeping and dispelling?

i just hate it when ppl seem to choose what jobs they want to know anything about like ppl know what dnc can and can't do but seem ignorant to sch when they came at the same time.

thank you for patience /rant over
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#2 Sep 03 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I will get on my 53 WHM to teleport and people will ask me to party and I say I am done XPing on my WHM but I have a 52 SCH. Then they ask: "Can SCH heal?"

lulz
#3 Sep 03 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I got told to "sub WHM instead of RDM because that's what all healers do" in a level 54 bird pt.. when the PLD (lvl 53.. and really crappy) died in the time I got off a Regen II on him (/RDM(fastcast) + AF boots)..

Left the pt.. and stood around explaining to them that at 54 the only thing I got from WHM sub that mattered was curaga.. and that I shouldn't be using that in a bird pt..

There does seem to be a dearth of knowledge about what we can and can't do. A normal bird pt, I nuke about once a min for 300 dmg.. aspir drain and enbliz the pt and cure (and regen).. and .. they want haste..
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#4 Sep 03 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to be mean or anything but your guys servers must suck. On my server I was treated like the queen of Britain when I got around Colibris on SCH and these were all just pick up groups. When it came to manaburns I don't bother. Why would you want to do the blms desperate way for exp when you can get into a REAL pt easy. For mission and stuff BLM or WHM might be more required than a SCH for the lowered caped sh*t but on higher levels SCH can fill in the roles of a WHM defiantly and blm sometimes you just need to step it up and tell people what YOU can do. For merits I used another job honestly since haste is actually damn important.

Also for your last line
scrish wrote:
why do ppl expect sch to play like rdm always switching between healing, enfeebling, sleeping and dispelling?

Its not hard... its pretty standard, just have /rdm. Your enfeebling magic stays high whether you have light or dark arts up, dispel can be used with Light arts and doesn't really suffer much consequences. Unless there asking for this at really low lvs (crawlers nest) in which case fk them!
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#5 Sep 03 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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It is the scholar's job to educate the dumb masses




BE THAT SCHOLAR
#6 Sep 03 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Ya you guys must have some ignorant servers. On mine, I'll have certain days where I will get invites for random merit parties while I'm at an event in the middle of nowhere with no flag on as SCH. Back when SCH sucked, and I was taking it through a bird party, everyone loved me healing because they could get 5 DD and me as SCH and just rape the area. Stoneskin, Enblizzard, and cheap curing/regen.

Generally, many people do seem to not fully understand SCH. That just happens when someone hasn't played it or experienced it enough. Obviously, if someone has never touched SCH, and only sees crappy SCH play...they will have no idea what a SCH can do. Once they see a good one, they know. At that point, you wont get the "Haste Can I have it" comments anymore, or the "sub whm cause then you can heal" comments.

#7 Sep 03 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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thank you for the replies seems like its just ignorance on some servers and i dont wanna go into the times i have been asked to sub whm for -na spells i even got a tell from a sac in my ls that said "always sub whm in sky for ppp" i said sch gets it he said "only under addendum: white we need it faster" i was like um... i always have addendum: white up healing.

god i hate it when ppl try to tell you how to do your job when they dont know how to play it
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#8 Sep 04 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I took a (regrettable) invite, and the first thing out of the RDM's mouth was "you can AE haste, right?".
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#9 Sep 04 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I have both BLM and SCH leveled to 75 (along with BLU, but... it's lolblu). Guess which job I get asked to come to Dynamis on. Every. Single. Freaking. Run.
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#10 Sep 04 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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alauna wrote:
I took a (regrettable) invite, and the first thing out of the RDM's mouth was "you can AE haste, right?".


lmao had a ls pt in caedeva mire i accession run to pt stoneskin then get amnesia and drk says "AOE haste instaid of stoneskin"

/sigh

ps i have also thought of writng a macro "SCH DOESN'T GET HASTE SO STOP F****** ASKING"
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#11 Sep 04 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I, Like haleole, leveled a long time ago. Pre-level sync in fact. Ignorance of SCH's abilities seemed to be less of an issue back then than it is now. I have actually come across a SCH that was level 60 and was asking me what level we can cast haste...

For diumb comments, I humour them. Dumb questions, I make up BS answers. For sky, I don't heal unless we're dealt a poo-fan. But, with my performance compared to that of the BLM's I've been with lately, I usually tell them to emerency cure so I can keep nuking. I personally took SCH with the approach of making an extremely potent nuking job that can heal when the situation absolutely calls for it.

Haste is NOT necessary btw to cap EXP/hr on greater colibris. It just makes it easier.
#12 Sep 04 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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lolscholar wrote:
It is the scholar's job to educate the dumb masses




BE THAT SCHOLAR


I know this was a joke (and made me laugh too); but there is a lot of truth to it D:


SCH is not a wildly known job. It suffers from the same problems of DNC, PUP, and COR. This are jobs that since they are still relatively new and very very rare; people just don't know what they can do.
They just go with their gut instincts and try to compare it to the closest thing.
For many COR is just another flavor of BRD, SCH is some sort of RDM, PUP is another SMN, and DNC is a THF/WHM (Yes; I've heard that u.u).

And you can't really blame them. Very few people get to interact with this jobs. Before I took SCH up, none of my leaders had any clue whatsoever of what we could do. Took me some talking, explaining, and most important: demonstrating; before they started saying "Come SCH" over my other jobs.

So it is YOUR job to educate your teamates. If you know that a SCH can do a better job at a given task; just go SCH and show them.
Like I said in the other thread; it takes a few casts of Graviga before all the mages love you.
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#13 Sep 05 2009 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
What server you on???

I constantly get bombarded with pt invites and always have my flag down.


The only bad thing i hear about sch is that they suck cus they dont get haste or cant refresh.
Well for once i am so glad we didnt get to be another haste or refresh whore especially -ga style. I got bored enough with my rdm cus of this.
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#14 Sep 05 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
cus they dont get haste or cant refresh.

Not bashing Scholar or anything, but this is pretty much the entire reason people (stupidly) look down on the job from an exp standpoint.

I'm sure you're all aware of this, but no matter how hard you nuke, or how effective your en-ga is, it will not provide as much dot or usefulness in shortened recasts as hasting everyone.
The annoying part comes in when you invite said random RDM or WHM and it turns out there absolutely terrible. You know for a fact that random SCH would have had a higher chance of knowing his job better, and in the long run, probably would have provided faster exp due to less retarded deaths.

:(


In short, East Ronfaure [S] and level sync were made for SCH. It is no coincedence that exp there drys up at 41 lol.



EDIT: Whoever didn't invite SCH to a manaburn is pretty retarded too. Aside from the fact a SCHs nukes are virtually identical to BLMs except more efficient, they can also modify the weather for everyone which becomes massively potent at obi level. /sigh


Edited, Sep 5th 2009 12:59pm by bimrog
#15scrish, Posted: Sep 05 2009 at 6:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) hehe who needs a rdm when sch has access to stoneskin get a brd ballad x2 and sublimation when ever i have that setup unless the tank can't keep hate and its burning mp there is no downtime
#16 Sep 05 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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When people say they want a WHM, they usually just mean they want a main healer. Most people are flexible about it if you express your interest, unless the situation specifically calls for a WHM or whatever.
#17 Sep 05 2009 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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I have not seen a SCH in a merit party except one time. Everyone on my server says BRD + BRD ONRY. I am currently level 52 but climbing fast mostly from Solo and Duo. Everyone complains that SCH doesn't get haste and even my Nyzul static said they were worried about it since I am going to main SCH and heal for them and let our RDM come on a DD job. Here is what I proposed to them: I will come SCH and Member #2 will come DNC. I will heal and buff he will Haste Samba (5/5 merited) and debuff. I think that isn't bad. Yes 10% haste is a bit less and it is only for melee hits not for recasts but with the potent healing you get and the stoneskin you shouldn't be getting casting interrupts anyway unless you are main tanking overly often right?

Would that be a viable combo DNC + SCH + DDx4 I want to try it out in a merit party and see... The best XP/H party I was in was DD x3, DNC, BRD, COR. But I think that worked really well because the DNC and I live together so I could demand his WSs for extra skillchain damage. xD
#18 Sep 05 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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scrish wrote:
however if i have a rdm in pt i will take refresh cos its more relyable over time


Not true, and you're pulling 40 MP away from your RDM to gain 30 MP for yourself *or lose 10 MP if you have relic body*.

In meripo, recasts don't matter when no one is /NIN. :-D
#19scrish, Posted: Sep 05 2009 at 5:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What i meant by refresh is more relyable is that with sublimation up if a pt is burning mp you have 2 choices to rest (if you have stoneskin) maybe slow the pt down or pop sublimation early and maybe not get much back and maybe still have to rest but because refresh is constant there is less chance of having to rest i have had a pt that bad that i have run out of mp about 1 min into sublimation pop it again and get around 20 mp back in that situation refresh is best but if you can use it and get atleast 3 min into it before to need to pop it again then it is better than refresh.
#20 Sep 05 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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With your grammar (I had a little trouble following) I'm not sure if i totally understand your problem, but how is it possible that your mp problems with a RDM in an xp party are so bad? What is the RDM doing? Are you using strategems? I can't think of a single standard xp camp that I struggled that bad with mp, especially with another full mage.

By the way, you're totally ignoring the concept of "pt mp" and strictly thinking in terms of your own mp pool, which is what Banggugyangu was trying to tell you.

You should learn to conserve your mp better, if your problems are as drastic as your example. Even if you got refresh, it wouldn't do much to help the mp conservation problems you seem to be having.
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#21Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 08 2009 at 10:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) exactly what I was trying to say, thank you.
#22 Sep 18 2009 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
I wouldn't say ignored, but uncommon.

On Fairy, majority of the time there can be about 1500 players up, 20 of which are COR, 13 are Pup, and 17 Sch. Dnc is fairly common nowadays, because of the small server/ high solo correlation.

In terms of Pties, its alot like my Pup where people didn't know what I could do, until I showed them. But in terms of exp, post 40 its been a dream.

Accession is virtually broken for awhile, Regenga II, Blinkaga, Phalanxaga, Stoneskinaga, Enblizzardaga, are really impressive spells. To the point, where I question the need of Haste as much in a merit pt, if you can negate majority of the damage taken by all the DD's with Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx and regen on every DD, and the healer can refresh themselves, allowing the member to go /war or something, but this is something I haven't tested completely yet, but would love too.

Nin afterall, gimps overall damage potential for "safety"

However, Sch's Accession makes it pretty useful for just about everything, I'd say I beat out for a Whm most times because even now with the Scholars cap, and maybe a /dnc in the pt or a smart Pld or Nin, I can main heal a Pt with low DT and some cookies, while raking in a good couple hundred dmg a Colibri based off Enspells with a handfull of DD's.

Sch has alot of potential, but the lack of Haste is understandable but hurtful. People will only change things when you show them that it can be changed, and many people invite X job for what they've seen soley at 75 and not whats actually in front of them.

In the same vein that a well geared Pup is the best DD you can get till 50, is the same reason a Mnk can beat out a Sam, or War/Nin, and a Sch can stand toe to toe with a Rdm, Whm, and Blm in the right situations.

You are the Scholar, educate the unwashed masses.

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#23 Sep 18 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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I was in a party once where we couldnt get above chain 8 - we had a RDM who didnt haste. Suddenly, he left and we got a WHM who did haste. Didnt lose chain until 100+ when we all had to leave.

Haste wont make or break a pt that has fantastically geared DDs, but it can make or break a party with "meh" DDs. SCH does suffer here. However, it can be (mostly) offset if you tell everyone in your party "hey, we have a SCH main heal, dont go /NIN, go /WAR /SAM /RNG /DRG etc for the extra DD and the SCH can stoneskinga / blinkga."
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#24 Sep 19 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a question. How many SCH's put together a +enh set for maximizing enspellga's? Also do you take specific monster weakness into account or just blast with day / weather enspell? I'm asking this because most that I've asked in-game seem to just use AF and manifestation + enspell-whatever.

I know on RDM maximizing +enh skill makes a very large difference for full land rates (not just damage amount).
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#25 Sep 19 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I have a question. How many SCH's put together a +enh set for maximizing enspellga's? Also do you take specific monster weakness into account or just blast with day / weather enspell? I'm asking this because most that I've asked in-game seem to just use AF and manifestation + enspell-whatever.


Enhancing gear is rather easy to get outside the relic body, so I can't really think of any good excuse not to have it. As for choosing the enspell, it depends on many factors, the first being Stormsurge. If you have full merits in this, Firestorm + Enfire becomes your best combo. I suppose Thunderstorm + Enthunder would be a distant second, can't say I've ever cast this specifically for the DEX+7, but everything's situational etc.

Is the target neutral/weak to fire? Not Watersday? Firestorm + Enfire

Is the target strong against fire and weak/neutral to current day element? Enspell corresponding to current day + Firestorm. If Watersday, use the matching Storm for the Enspell instead.

Is the target strong against fire and the current day element, and has no exploitable weaknesses? Use whatever the hell you feel like that isn't Enfire/En-day element.

Is the target strong against magic? Is it going to be dead in 30 seconds whether you cast it or not? Does your party consist of 2-handers only? Is the target dangerous enough where you might actually have to cure beyond Stoneskin? Hell, could you be effectively nuking the target instead?

Save your charges for something more useful.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#26 Sep 19 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Weather / Day have very little effects on enspell's. Your talking ~2 extra damage possibly. That's why its always best to target the monsters weakness element so you get highest possibly accuracy rate (full land rate).

That being said, almost every monster I've ever fought has been weak to ice, or at least neutral to thunder. What does 5/5 Voidstorm do?
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#27 Sep 19 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Weather / Day have very little effects on enspell's. Your talking ~2 extra damage possibly. That's why its always best to target the monsters weakness element so you get highest possibly accuracy rate (full land rate).

That being said, almost every monster I've ever fought has been weak to ice, or at least neutral to thunder. What does 5/5 Voidstorm do?


Stormsurge 5/5 voidstorm? +3 to all stats.
#28 Sep 19 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Weather / Day have very little effects on enspell's. Your talking ~2 extra damage possibly.


Regardless of the amount of initial damage, Weather/Day procs increase the damage by the same percentage. Sure, it may be a relatively small increase per Enspell proc, but when you consider that it can proc on each hit made by each player over a 3 minute duration, it adds up in a hurry.

Quote:
That's why its always best to target the monsters weakness element so you get highest possibly accuracy rate (full land rate).


I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is always true (Some targets are not weak to any Enspell, target is weak enough for resists to be a non-issue), but it's an excellent point regardless and should definitely be considered when choosing which Storm/Enspell combination to use.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#29 Sep 20 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I was talking about day/weather bonus in comparison to actual monster resistance. If there monster doesn't have a pronounced weakness, then might as well choose an element that matches day / weather.

Was asking about Voidstorm because earlier someone mentioned Firestorm up with enfire. Vs something like G.Colibri (weak ice) going from enfire to enblizzard shows a definite improvement. But have fire weather up would be counter productive to the enblizzard effect. So possible would Voidstorm + Enblizzard be an acceptable alternative?
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#30 Sep 20 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So possible would Voidstorm + Enblizzard be an acceptable alternative?


Absolutely, that's exactly what i would do in that situation.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#31 Sep 21 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Well I was talking about day/weather bonus in comparison to actual monster resistance. If there monster doesn't have a pronounced weakness, then might as well choose an element that matches day / weather.

Was asking about Voidstorm because earlier someone mentioned Firestorm up with enfire. Vs something like G.Colibri (weak ice) going from enfire to enblizzard shows a definite improvement. But have fire weather up would be counter productive to the enblizzard effect. So possible would Voidstorm + Enblizzard be an acceptable alternative?


Except that colibri mobs have neutral resistance vs fire spells, therefore with even a remotely acceptable enhancing build, you shouldn't have large resists often with enfire. The 4 extra STR from firestorm is going to be a greater help on those SAM WSs than the extra damage you MIGHT see from a few less resists on enblizzard.
#32 Sep 21 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Except that colibri mobs have neutral resistance vs fire spells, therefore with even a remotely acceptable enhancing build, you shouldn't have large resists often with enfire. The 4 extra STR from firestorm is going to be a greater help on those SAM WSs than the extra damage you MIGHT see from a few less resists on enblizzard.


Where to start..

Colibri are naturally resistant to magic in general, not to mention the fact that they're VT. You are going to see substantial resists while using a neutral Enspell against them.

As such, STR+4 on one SAM's WS damage is not going to wind up dealing more damage than the difference between Enfirega and Enblizzardga on Colibri/Puks/Mamools.

Furthermore, if you have more than one SAM, why are you even bothering with Enspellgas in the first place? Enspellga is for 1-handers/Dual-Wielders; a 2-hander party will do much, much more damage if you use that charge on defensive spells to allow them to use DD subjobs.

Circular logic is circular.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 12:32pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#33 Sep 21 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Enspells are mostly for 1-handers and Monks. 2Handers in general (And SAM in particular) benefit a lot more from the extra STR.


Quote:
a 2-hander party will do much, much more damage if you use that charge on defensive spells to allow them to use DD subjobs.


I don't understand what you mean by this. DRG DRK and WAR should all be /SAM for lolibri anyways; and SAM should be /WAR or /DRG regardless.

Really, at this point the only DD job that gets a serious boost to their DD abilities at a great expense of survivability is a MNK/WAR. And I'm doubtful a SCH can keep a good one alive without some sort of extra support (3 support 3 DD?).


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#34Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 21 2009 at 12:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 1st off, yes, they're innately resistant to magic. However, without hard proof, I would be hard-pressed to say that there are "substantial resists" for a neutral spell. Perhaps you don't use an enhancing build? Your enhancing magic skill effects damage AND resist rate for the en-spell on all under the effect.
#35 Sep 21 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't understand what you mean by this. DRG DRK and WAR should all be /SAM for lolibri anyways; and SAM should be /WAR or /DRG regardless.


What exactly is so difficult for you to understand here? Allow me to break it down for you.

In any merit party, you can keep 2 3-minute duration buffs on, along with 1-2 Stoneskin casts, per 3 minute cycle. One of those buffs is always going to be Firestorm (Edit: Except when it's not!).

In a 1H/DW party (as in, doesn't include the jobs you listed above) that second buff is going to be Enspellga, as they will likely have Utsusemi to defend themselves with, and Enspell damage is subject to increasing returns as weapon delay decreases.

In a 2H party party, Enspellga isn't nearly as powerful, so the solution is to use Phalanxga instead and encourage DD subjob use to increase kill speed.

All rather obvious, right? Alright, now let's apply that to the original statement that was so confusing:

Quote:
Furthermore, if you have more than one SAM, why are you even bothering with Enspellgas in the first place? Enspellga is for 1-handers/Dual-Wielders; a 2-hander party will do much, much more damage if you use that charge on defensive spells to allow them to use DD subjobs.


As you can see here, in the bolded portion, you seem to have merely reworded my statement. Kinda hard to understand how it was confusing when you all but copy-pasted it from my post.

Of course, that wasn't even the point I was trying to make in the first place; in the italicized portion, I was clearly saying that in a mixed DD party that nonetheless consists of mainly 2H DDs, defensive buffs + DD subjobs is the correct choice.

What exactly were you trying to contribute here, again?

Quote:
Really, at this point the only DD job that gets a serious boost to their DD abilities at a great expense of survivability is a MNK/WAR. And I'm doubtful a SCH can keep a good one alive without some sort of extra support (3 support 3 DD?).


Missing the point entirely. For one, DD/NIN switching to DD/DD is trading survivability for DD potential; Utsusemi is one of the most powerful defensive tools in the game, and, using /WAR as an example, Berserk, Double Attack, and Warcry together add a huge chunk of damage to any job. If your SCH is busy screwing around giving your SAMs and DRKs Enspells instead of Phalanx, they are going to take too much damage without /NIN for the party to be viable. This was the point I was trying to make, and you took one sentence completely out of context and ran with it on a wholly retarded tangent. In the future, please pay more attention before you decide to copy/paste/quote a sentence fragment out of context for your nitpicking pleasure.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 5:48pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#36 Sep 21 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Quote:
1st off, yes, they're innately resistant to magic. However, without hard proof, I would be hard-pressed to say that there are "substantial resists" for a neutral spell. Perhaps you don't use an enhancing build? Your enhancing magic skill effects damage AND resist rate for the en-spell on all under the effect.


Hard proof? Go test it out yourself, it's blatantly obvious to the naked eye. Perhaps I don't use an enhancing build? Don't pander to me.

Quote:
2nd: I'm confused why you're suggesting that I'm sacrificing the 2 handed melees using a more offensive subjob? If the SAMs aren't using either /DRG or /WAR, and the WARs, DRKs, and DRGs aren't using /SAM, then I'm better off in a different PT or solo.


I was using something called logic; first I stated that the added damage from STR+4 on one SAM's overall damage will not overcome the difference in damage between 3 minutes of a neutral Enspellga compared to a strong Enspellga on all party members which, according to the parameters i set forth, will be 1H/DW DDs. Then, I stated that adding more SAMs to the equation was a moot point, because a 2nd SAM would entail not using Enspells in the first place. Try to keep up.

Quote:
3rd: Name 1 weapon skill used by 2 handed melee jobs during meripo that doesn't have STR as its highest modifier.


Why? I never stated otherwise. Once you graduate high school in a few years, you ought to consider taking a debate class if you manage to make it into higher education; it'll help you stay on topic.

Quote:
4th: Weather/day offers accuracy to spells. Firestorm offers accuracy to enfire. It'll increase damage potential, sure, but the real reason for the appropriate weather on en-spells is the accuracy.


For the last time, produce proof on this; real, solid, irrefutable proof, or drop it for good.

Quote:
5th: 7 STR is essentially +5.25 base damage for YGK. That's pretty huge. +3 to all stats is essentially +1/2 acc and +2.25 base damage for YGK. That's nice but fairly 'meh'. The only argument you could give for voidstorm in this aspect is when considering situations like penta-thrust: where firestorm offers +1.4 base damage and voidstorm offers +1.2 base damage. If you're using drakesbane, however, Firestorm offers +3.5 base damage and voidstorm offers +1.5 base damage.


You're absolutely correct; however, you're not looking at the entire equation, therefore this statement is as valid as my bus pass. You're talking about YGK, but I believe I've stated several times that if there's more than one 2H DD in a party, you forgo Enspellgas altogether in favour of Phalanxga, and, as stated above, a party of 1H/DW DDs with Enspellga will more than make up for that STR+4.

I'll just repeat, in case you missed it the first few times: Day/Weather effects have, to my knowledge, never been conclusively proven to add accuracy to spells/effects of their respective elements. Please provide your proof on this subject if you'd like to maintain the last shred of credibility you still, against my better judgement, possess.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#37Drakonite, Posted: Sep 21 2009 at 8:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The one that doesn't understand my argument here is you.
#38 Sep 21 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
You entailed that DD's should use a "More DD oriented subjob" when Phalanxga enters the picture. I say that shouldn't even matter, they should already be bringing said subjobs.
There is no advantage from changing WAR/SAM to WAR/SAM or DRG/SAM to DRG/SAM.

He means that most DD's usually go with a defensive sub normally (to mitigate damage), like /NIN or /DNC (for SAM's, or other quick-tp gaining jobs), and this allows them to go with more offensive subs, like WAR, or SAM.


Drakonite wrote:
Perhaps the one that should analyze the context before going on a "retarded tangent" here is you.

ok, how about a random tangent, like: "/rdm kicks the butt out of /drg for sch"?


Edit: minor grammer and spelling mistakes fixed.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 11:01pm by Vestrivan
____________________________
The wise warrior will fight until he can no longer win; while the foolish warrior will never stop fighting.

MouserRDM wrote:

People think Dark Knights are the emo-boys of FFXI.

They ain't got nothin' on us Blue Mages. We kill monsters, eat their souls, and we don't even use barbecue sauce. And we're still hungry.

We're bastards.
#39 Sep 22 2009 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Alright, so you're saying that, regardless of which DD jobs are present and which support jobs are present, using /WAR /SAM etc. is always the most viable way to approach a merit party? Forgive me for saying so but, besides being blatantly wrong, this is a very narrow-minded view to have on the subject. Personally, I've had parties where none of the four DDs were /NIN, I was on RDM, and there was 1 BRD present, and I never even had to Convert; I've also had parties where I was stretching my MP pool to the breaking point after a few fights, even with 2 BRDs present. I'm fairly certain these experiences are hardly unique.

The simple fact of the matter is that SCH can choose to lean towards offensive buffs, or concentrate on defensive buffs; when using defensive buffs, it makes a no-/NIN party much more viable than without, and there are many, many factors that come into play, including jobs present, how well-geared they are, and individual skills. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore this while spouting off that DD subjobs are the best and therefore only option, I assure you that you are going to have more failed parties than someone who is willing to adjust based on the individual circumstances at hand. Allow me to lend you some perspective; the purpose of the merit party is to gain as much xp/hr as possible. If you try forcing your ideal setup on a less than ideal set of conditions, you are going to see a lot more fail, and will therefore earn less xp/hr over the long run than the person who adjusts each time.

All I said to begin with was that SCH, when played defensively, is highly conducive to DDs that are geared towards pure offense; while a party of DDs that use /NIN can benefit from Enspellgas to make up for some of the lost damage potential. Then, you showed up and said:

Quote:
DRG DRK and WAR should all be /SAM for lolibri anyways; and SAM should be /WAR or /DRG regardless.


You insist that there is one correct way, one best way, and any other way is just wrong, which leads me to my next point. It seems like we butt heads quite often, and it always boils down to the same issue; you like to make generalizations, whereas I prefer to look a bit deeper at all the situational aspects of the topic at hand, and quite frankly, it's getting tiresome. This job, and FFXI in general, is all about preparation, planning, and adaptability. You seem to have little interest in the latter, hence why we rarely see eye-to-eye. It's a shame, really, because you are one of the more knowledgable posters here; I just don't see the point in continuing to debate when it so quickly devolves into arguments over semantics and thinly-veiled insults. Then again, I suppose that's what the internet's for in the first place, so meh.

Also.. merit parties? Really? If we're gonna argue over stupid sh*t, please, let's make it about anything but merits.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#40 Sep 22 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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2,890 posts
Wow I can't believe someone actually questioned me on my enspell knowledge.

Ok I'll break it down to the guy who doesn't understand spell resists and monster resistance.

Enhancing Skill during cast determines magic accuracy on tier I enspells. This is why its dreadfully important for a meleeing RDM (and incidentally a buffing SCH) to have the highest possible enhancing skill. Even if it doesn't get you into another "tier" for damage, it still enhances magic accuracy. My current setup has me at 315 enhancing skill, all I need is the merciful cape and I'll be at 320 which is the current highest possible for a RDM.

That being said, a 300 enhancing skill enblizzard has approx 80% effectiveness against greater colibri. Against conventional wisdom, G.Colibri actually have no negative resistance, this no real weakness. What they have is an amazingly high resistance to everything -BUT- Ice, with near immunity to Wind. So in effect they are neutral to Ice, but since that's their lowest resistance its what we target.

Second, contrary to popular opinion, STR does more for 1H then for 2H because it ignored delay. STR's primary purpose is to enhance base damage through fSTR (and WSC during WS). Since this is irrespective of the current damage / delay of the weapon involved (exception is when then cap is reached) it favors lower D / lower delay weapons.

Example, for this I am excluding haste because it will have the same effect on both sides.

PH/Joy vs Perdu GAXE (just using as example of fSTR)

Perdu Hangar
D44 Delay 225
Joyeuse
D35 Delay 224(1.45 DA divider) 224/1.45 = 154.4
(225+154.4) * .80 = 303.5 /2 = 151.7 delay per attack
151.7/60 = 2.52 seconds per attack
D44 + 35 = 79 /2 = 39.5 per attack
39.5/2.52 = 15.67 DPS

Perdu Voulge
D96 Delay 504
504/60 = 8.4 seconds per attack
at 96D per attack
96/8.4 = 11.42 DPS

8.4/2.52 = 3.33
The DW setup gets 3.33 attacks in for every 1 attack of the GAXE

Now lets add some STR in there and assume your at a decent STR level.
At 90 STR during TP.
90-67= 23
(23+4)/4 = 6.75 [6] fSTR
This is added on a per hit basis.

(44+6) = 50, (35+6) = 41
D50 + 41 = 91 /2 = 45.5 per attack
45.5/2.52 = 18.05 DPS For sword
18.05/15.67 = 1.151, or a 15.1% increase in DPS from fSTR

96+6 = 102
102/8.4 = 12.14 DPS
12.14/11.42 = 1.063 or a 6.3% increase in DPS from fSTR

And this relationship keeps the same no matter how much STR you tack on.

Sorry for the math, but wanted to make a point so everyone would understand. The 4STR extra from firestorm would actually help the DW/H2H crowd more then it would the 2H crowd, just like the enspells. So the real debate is does the benefit of 4STR (+1 fSTR and some WSC) outweight the benefit of higher total enspell damage? That really is a hard one but I'd say in most case's yes (especially on birds).
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#41 Sep 22 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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323 posts
Lyltia although I agree with you on the fact that generalisations are never really a good thing and that saying that DDs should -always- be subbing DD subs is slightly close minded, I do also actually agree to a large extent with the view that
Quote:

DRG DRK and WAR should all be /SAM for lolibri anyways; and SAM should be /WAR or /DRG regardless.


I myself have both DRG and SAM levelled and I can honestly say that for merit parties there has NEVER been a time when I have regretted coming /SAM for DRG and /WAR or /DRG for SAM. I have however regretted being /NIN on SAM, the difference in DD capability is pretty dramatic and honestly the gain in survival from /NIN is really not that impressive. If you're talking about Colibri /NIN is gimped anyway because Pecking Flurry will take out all your shadows whereas Third Eye eats it whole. The idea when meriting is to maximise efficiency and therefore exp per hour, and there will almost never be a situation where a 2h job will be more efficient subbing NIN than SAM/DRG/WAR depending on job. If you have a party of idiot WARs in seriously pathetic gear, even then you would be better off making them sub SAM, you would kill significantly faster and furthermore there is actually less room for error. It takes a lot more effort for players to constantly reapply Utsusemi than it does for them to mash their Third Eye macro every 30 seconds.

The only time I can really think of when any 2h job should be subbing NIN is if you have one maxed out fully merited DRG/SAM/DRK/WAR and the rest of the party is below par. In that situation the maxed out player in question could perhaps sub NIN since he will be tanking almost full time.

Honestly though, I know I have just said that blanket statements and generalisations are stupid, but to be honest nonetheless, 95% of the time a 2 handed job will be better off with a DD sub than /NIN.
____________________________
[Ragnarok]
Kalessin: DRG75 SAM75 BLU75 BST75
Heph: SCH70
#42 Sep 22 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Default
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629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
4th: Weather/day offers accuracy to spells. Firestorm offers accuracy to enfire. It'll increase damage potential, sure, but the real reason for the appropriate weather on en-spells is the accuracy.


For the last time, produce proof on this; real, solid, irrefutable proof, or drop it for good.


I can, at the same time, make this exact statement toward you. Produce real, solid, irrefutable proof against this theory, or drop it for good. I'll agree that until proof is posted in favor of this, then I can't shove it down someone's throat as "fact", but at the same time, until proof is posted in contrast of it, you also cannot shove it down anyone's throat as fallacy.

Although eyeballing doesn't prove a single thing, I myself notice considerably more resists to debuffs that are weak to the given day/weather. At the same time, I notice considerably less resists and more full effects for debuffs OF the given day/weather.

Quote:

You're absolutely correct; however, you're not looking at the entire equation, therefore this statement is as valid as my bus pass. You're talking about YGK, but I believe I've stated several times that if there's more than one 2H DD in a party, you forgo Enspellgas altogether in favour of Phalanxga, and, as stated above, a party of 1H/DW DDs with Enspellga will more than make up for that STR+4.


You're making these strange insinuations about how I handle a meripo and they're all very wrong.

1: I pretty much refuse to meripo with 2 handed melees anymore. Not that I dislike them, because I personally even enjoy playing them myself. It's simply that I rather dislike spending extra time getting the same exp that I could get otherwise. It's my own prerogative that no one should really have to comment about.

2: Phalanx is on all my melees all the time. It isn't sacrificed for anything else. If your melees are good enough, 1 stoneskin cast will generally last quite some time. As such, I keep firestorm, enfire, and phalanx up constantly. Stoneskin is refreshed when my sublimation kills it. At 4 HP/tick, that's just about every 4 minutes *works out perfectly, huh?*.


You're also trying to pervert others' words by making statements such as "you're saying that melee DDs should always use offensive subjobs." Allow me to make a couple slightly more correct general statements:

1: For 1 handed melees, /NIN has somewhat become the staple subjob for nearly everything. Other subjobs are situationally useful, but not as often.

2: For 2 handed melees, /SAM has become the staple subjob. Other subjobs are useful under certain situations, though it's rare.

Obviously a NIN and SAM can't sub itself, so there's a bit more freedom.

No one is claiming that any of these subjobs are end-all for every situation. The situation at hand, however, is meripo. If you're a 2 handed melee DD in a meripo party that isn't centered around DRG healing, then you should be /SAM or /DRG or /WAR unless your healers can't handle it. Since we're in the SCH forum, we're assuming that the healer is going to be a SCH. SCH can hnandle it.
#43 Sep 22 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Default
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879 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:

1: I pretty much refuse to meripo with 2 handed melees anymore. Not that I dislike them, because I personally even enjoy playing them myself. It's simply that I rather dislike spending extra time getting the same exp that I could get otherwise. It's my own prerogative that no one should really have to comment about.


This made no sense.

Otherwise i agree with the rest of your post.
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Khory

TybudX wrote:
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#44 Sep 22 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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2,976 posts
Quote:
4th: Weather/day offers accuracy to spells. Firestorm offers accuracy to enfire. It'll increase damage potential, sure, but the real reason for the appropriate weather on en-spells is the accuracy
There's no accuracy buff to enspells with weather. There is however, a damage increase thanks to the normal 10% modifier you get with other spells. Of course, this is usually floored to 1 unless you can hit 20+ with your enspell, but the extra damage does make a difference when you consider that there's 4+ melee's using it.

Mind you, Enspells are the bane of dancers, so I avoid casting them when there's one in the team. It overwrites their Samba ability including Haste Samba which is doing far more for the party, imo, than your enspells will. On the upside, it 'frees up' an Accession strategem to use for other things... like my personal favourite, AoE Firestorm (+7 STR is lovely) with a side order of Thunderstorm for the THF if requested. I've noticed some very big numbers coming out of their weaponskills after using Firestorm so it's hard not to smile when they thank me for it.
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#45Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 22 2009 at 12:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) that was a typo, I meant to say 1 handed.
#46 Sep 22 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Quote:
I can, at the same time, make this exact statement toward you. Produce real, solid, irrefutable proof against this theory, or drop it for good. I'll agree that until proof is posted in favor of this, then I can't shove it down someone's throat as "fact", but at the same time, until proof is posted in contrast of it, you also cannot shove it down anyone's throat as fallacy.


Actually, no you can't. Allow me to quote myself:

Quote:
For the last time, produce proof on this; real, solid, irrefutable proof, or drop it for good.


Quote:
I'll just repeat, in case you missed it the first few times: Day/Weather effects have, to my knowledge, never been conclusively proven to add accuracy to spells/effects of their respective elements.


And this is what you said:

Quote:
4th: Weather/day offers accuracy to spells. Firestorm offers accuracy to enfire. It'll increase damage potential, sure, but the real reason for the appropriate weather on en-spells is the accuracy.


All I said is that there is no proof that Day/Weather affects accuracy; logic dictates that there's no proof against it either, else I would use that as proof against your above statement. My only problem was with you claiming that there was proof for it, which you made quite clear in the bolded portions of your quote, when there is none.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin of your credibility on these forums. Please stop posting.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#47Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 22 2009 at 2:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you had read more thoroughly, I conceded my statement to a hypothetical status. You, in your post, had tried to use the same form of statement as an argument against using enfire.
#48 Sep 22 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Quote:
If you had read more thoroughly, I conceded my statement to a hypothetical status. You, in your post, had tried to use the same form of statement as an argument against using enfire.

If the lack of proof supporting that hypothesis restricts it from being used as an argument for a point, then the lack of proof disproving the same hypothesis restricts it from being used as an argument against the same point.

Here's a tip. Saying something then abiding by the opposite is the definition of hypocrisy.


No, no, no. This is getting laughable. Here's the simple version:

-You claim day/weather affects accuracy.

-I say there's no proof that I'm aware of, please provide some or I'll be forced to call bullsh*t.

-You retreat from your earlier statement and make claims that at some point I claimed there was proof that day/weather did not affect accuracy; if you can find where I said this, feel free to quote it. Here's a tip: you won't.

-You attempt to twist the argument in an effort to divert attention from the fact that most of what you spout on these forums is complete, self-serving bullsh*t.

This is getting ridiculous. If you'd just admit that, hey, you were wrong, my bad, moving on, then the rest of us could too, and there'd be nothing more said on the matter. Instead, you can't stand the fact that you made false claims about something and got called out on it, so you attempt to drag everyone down with you so you're not alone on the wrong side of things.

There's a reason the Sub-Default filter hides 90% of your posts, y'know.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#49 Sep 23 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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29,111 posts
Assuming full Stormsurge, I don't see any real problem with Firestorm + Enblizzardga.

Fire weather means a roughly 33% chance for per-hit Enblizzard damage to go down by two points. That's roughly .66 damage per non-WS hit in exchange for raising fSTR by 1.75 points (right? I'm no real expert on melee formula) and 3-4 attack. Idk, but it sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 6:20pm by Fynlar
#50 Sep 23 2009 at 9:33 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Assuming full Stormsurge, I don't see any real problem with Firestorm + Enblizzardga.

Other than the oddity (and yet, surprise) of that actually working, your DD would prolly get more out of +3 STR/DEX (from Voidstorm) than +5 STR (from Firestorm); but hey, if your DD would get more out of Firestorms bonuses than Voidstorm bonuses, then don't let me stop you.
Although, I do kinda admit the enblizzardga while firestorm is up would be rather unexpected, and rather amusing in some sense.

Edit: found a better word than the one I used before.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 10:35pm by Vestrivan
____________________________
The wise warrior will fight until he can no longer win; while the foolish warrior will never stop fighting.

MouserRDM wrote:

People think Dark Knights are the emo-boys of FFXI.

They ain't got nothin' on us Blue Mages. We kill monsters, eat their souls, and we don't even use barbecue sauce. And we're still hungry.

We're bastards.
#51 Sep 24 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Yeah, upon further reflection I'm more inclined to agree with the above points, but i'd also say that it's probably situational and a close shave regardless. Since Voidstorm raises all base attributes, it's offering a lot of small increases across the board for different jobs, which would be very difficult to quantify objectively, while Firestorm is a substantial boost for anyone beating on the target. Keep in mind that you're excluding heavy DD jobs such as SAM DRK DRG from this, as you wouldn't be bothering with Enspells if they were present. THF especially comes to mind, assuming they're making use of SA/TA; to be honest I'm not really sure if the optimal way to play THF in a merit party includes heavy use of those abilities. I should really level a melee job..

I suppose part of me just can't help but recoil at using opposing storm/enspells, but I would be very interested at seeing some comprehensive testing on the subject. Then again, if one is going to spend hours parsing, there's probably a lot of more interesting things to research than this, so I'll content myself with wild speculation. =P
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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