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SCH vs. BLMFollow

#27 Jul 31 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Default
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PhantaOfHades wrote:
I can guarantee you that I am not a troll.

I just dont know much about SCH as it's not a very popular job (at least on my server) so I dont get to play with them much, and I dont want to take the job from 37->75 only to never use it because I have BLM levelled.

I'm not even sure why I'm defending myself on a perfectly legitimate question, but it's whatever.

For all of the people that replied, I thank you again. I've learned a lot about the difference between SCH and BLM and I continue to learn every time I revisit this thread.


Okie dokie then ^^ my troll-o-meter must have been off. CARRY ON!
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#28 Jul 31 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Default
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Just because you're in a BLM party doesn't mean you're fighting Tiamat. Einherjar comes to mind.


I don't get resisted in Einherjar unless it's the NM. I wouldn't even be using Klimaform or an resist set at all. I don't even know why you'd bring that up.

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You are forgetting that you can still deal damage even without using Addendum: Black for tierIV nukes.You must take this into account


Who says I have not taken this into account? Last I checked I have not once said anything about stratagem usage limitations in any of my arguments.


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One minute nuking, 2 minutes downtime. 2 minutes downtime = 11 ticks of hMP.


Let me see if I understand the implications of this. First; the SCH is now burning 3 Stratagems (Alacrity + Manifestation Klimafor, AoE Weather) each cycle.
And second, your BLM's are apparently; not nuking at all during Klimaform downtime.

You do realize that this would led to a much much lower damage overall? A BLM can't even possibly empty their MP pool in 1 minute unless they're doing some horribly inefficient spells like -GA3's paired with AM2's. Which again; would led to even less damage simply due to how inefficient this spells are.

This scenario is even worse than what I had originally in mind. How can you present this as an argument? You're the one who should think his arguments before posting them.


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If I read this correctly, you are mistaken as to how NMs build resistance.


Unless I've been playing some other game: NM's build a temporary resistance by taking nukes of the same element in a brief period of time. Go land 5 Non-MB spells of the same element, and at the same time on any Wyrm.
I'm very doubtful they'll all do full damage.



Edited, Aug 1st 2009 1:52am by Drakonite
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#29 Aug 01 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Default
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Category 2 Dark Arts Strategems merits are for Tabula Rasa. I included it for completion's sake, and did not quote it as SCH's saving grace in any situation.
You implied it by listing it alongside enmity gear for reasons why SCH can nuke more often.

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the opportunity cost in inventory space for an Enmity- set on BLM is exponentially higher
Sorry, what? You're saying that it doesn't cost SCH anything because they have a Light Arts set, yet it costs BLM more? Uh... right. Sorry, but as a SCH I have most of my inventory filled with my gear swaps for Scholar. If you want to talk about costs, the inventory space for SCH is far greater than the need for it on BLM. We're already carrying most of the gear a BLM does and more besides! A good mage worth their salt comes prepared with all the gear they might need, that applies to Black Mages as well as Scholars.

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SCH has access to Klimaform to replace the lost accuracy, while BLM just sucks it up.
The reason BLM generally takes more enmity from attacks has more to do with how much damage they deal than the -enmity gear they equip. You can't reach the enmity cap if you're working towards 320/120. And if you decided to drop some of that skill or INT for whatever reason, all you're doing is losing out on vital accuracy. Klimaform only goes some way to improving the deficit, but as countless BLMs have already pointed out, 320/120 is the absolute minimum not really the recommended stats for high level nuking.

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As with all jobs, Refresh gear is idle gear, so of course you're not gaining the full effects any time you're casting spells. The fact remains that BLM has access to 1MP/tick refresh under normal circumstances (i.e. not Assault) and SCH has access to 2~4MP/tick. You can argue about maximizing efficiency with gearswaps, but any such arguments apply to both jobs, and therefore do not matter.
Oh, but it does matter. The reason is because BLM can still obtain Refresh while SCH cannot if they're using Sublimation. A single RDM can refresh a team of BLMs for 3mp/tick which would easily outdo a SCH's Sublimation. In short, you'd probably just go with the Refresh unless you were close to full MP or preparing a charge to start off.

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there's a lot of pretty simple math that's been done that shows this is beyond doubt.
Really? Because from the reasons I've heard so far, all of those maths seem to believe we have an endless supply of Strategems. We don't. We have FOUR. Count them. Each one recharging over a 1 minute period. Which means if you're gobbling them up constantly for Parsimonies and Ebulliences and Alacrities, you're going to be running low very quickly indeed.
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#30 Aug 01 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
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I didn't forget about klimaform. Unless you're soloing HNMs or you're just a bad player, if you're nuking you'll probably be in a Blm pt, and you should be AoEing Klimaform anyway. So it's a wash.


No. AoE weather Yes; AoE Klimaform no.

BLM's don't need; and shouldn't base their strategies around AoE Klimaform. SCH's do. Klimaform is pretty much self-use only unless your SCH is not nuking at all.


This confusion lead to an argument between you and me in a different thread, except that I clearly stated that I was AOEing klimaform for the BLM PT. If the BLMs can have access to such a monstrous spell, then by all means they should. If the BLMs are actively watching for it, they can utilize it in the same manner as we can and adjust their gear accordingly. If you think BLMs don't sacrifice some damage gear in order to hit appropriate resist rates, you're foolish.

As I said in the other thread. If you have a BLM PT consisting of 2 SCHs, then you can easily AOE klimaform for the whole PT. I actually believe in the exact opposite manner as you do. I greatly downplay AOEing of weather effects and up the importance of AOE'd klimaform. 2 SCHs can cover weather needs for 5 people easily with single targets, even when in dark arts. *factoring that either a RDM or BRD won't need weather effects, but a COR might. Also factoring that the PT will always consist of a COR and usually a BRD as well.* A PT of BLM BLM SCH SCH BRD COR can have klimaform up on everyone nearly constantly. This will greatly increase the BLMs' damage. It's so worth it once you try it, but the BLMs have to adjust to make use of it.
#31 Aug 01 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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Career BLM 75 , newly SCH 74. Please note that this is written with a focus on the Dark Arts side, I leveled SCH as my super solo job, and it has served that purpose well.

For xp mobs such as puddings , aerns, even lower tier NM's I use my SCH.

Considering my SCH nuking set isn't anywhere on the level of my BLM's, yet I can (as of this moment) push out 1400 Bliv IV (storm + ebulliance), which is above what your average BLM can dish out. **** once I ding 75 and gain access to certain gear, I have no doubt that my nukes will break 1600+.

That is with Ebullinace of course, and me focused on offense. Without the /ja boost my nukes seem to do around 1.2ish a pop. (Puddings take extra damage from nukes, so you can factor that in)

To me SCH is what I always wanted BLM to be, being able to trade abit of your offense for a vast boost in your versatility. I find it funny that my SCH's max damage nuking set has the same amount of elemental skill as my BLM's (300).


Now anything that's actually resity, I would bring out the big guns (BLM) since I can break above 330+ elemental skill with ease, I am currently not able to do that with SCH.

I have alot of room for improvement with SCH, but as things stand now, I feel BLM does need a boost in the nuking dept, though I must admit it is fun making the other BLM's cry at Mount Z.

If ya can't beat 'em join 'em.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 2:16pm by knightfell
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#32 Aug 01 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't get resisted in Einherjar unless it's the NM. I wouldn't even be using Klimaform or an resist set at all. I don't even know why you'd bring that up.


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And I don't even know why you bring Helixes into this. As much as I love them; they have no place in highly resistant mobs.


I wrote:

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Helices(Although yes, of dubious use on HNM), Drain, Tier1-3 nukes are all available without Addendum: Black


I think it's pretty clear why I brought up helices; they're damaging spells that can be cast without Addendum: Black, and I pointed out their situational use as soon as I mentioned them. All nitpicking aside, this is nitpicking.

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You are forgetting that you can still deal damage even without using Addendum: Black for tierIV nukes.You must take this into account


Who says I have not taken this into account? Last I checked I have not once said anything about stratagem usage limitations in any of my arguments.


This was the scenario you posited:

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BLM's don't need klimaform: They can cap Magic Accu on their own (330+/120 or 320/140+ builds).
SCH's can only reach the surface of the first tier (320/120); which isn't going to cap you on resistant mobs.

Assuming only 1 Strat consume for Klima:
Klimaform Allows a BLM with Capped Accu to go Full Damage 1 minute out of every 6.
Klimaform allows a SCH to go from 80%ish Accu to almost Full Damage 2 minutes out of every 3.


It doesn't matter if you said anything about it or not, because the figures you've shared that I assume you're basing your analysis on are heavily flawed. I was pointing out that even when burning 3 Strategems every 3 minutes on Storm/Klimaform for the entire party, SCH is still able to deal damage with lower tier spells. It's a given that one cannot use Addendum: Black effectively in this situation, but you must take into account the fact that although SCH's damage output will be reduced from a pure nuking role, it is certainly not zero.

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Let me see if I understand the implications of this. First; the SCH is now burning 3 Stratagems (Alacrity + Manifestation Klimafor, AoE Weather) each cycle.
And second, your BLM's are apparently; not nuking at all during Klimaform downtime.

You do realize that this would led to a much much lower damage overall? A BLM can't even possibly empty their MP pool in 1 minute unless they're doing some horribly inefficient spells like -GA3's paired with AM2's. Which again; would led to even less damage simply due to how inefficient this spells are.

This scenario is even worse than what I had originally in mind. How can you present this as an argument? You're the one who should think his arguments before posting them.


I agree that this scenario isn't exactly ideal for maximum possible damage output; however, on mobs where you have a specific window in which to dump as much dmg as possible, such as Tiamat, it's what you'll be using. Sometimes DMG:MP doesn't matter and you just want your BLMs to unload their MP pool in a short period of time. In a scenario without those constraints, the BLMs can nuke during Klimaform > short rest > nuke some more > short rest > repeat, and still maintain their MP pools. I figured this went without saying; I'll be sure to say it next time to remove any doubts.

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Unless I've been playing some other game: NM's build a temporary resistance by taking nukes of the same element in a brief period of time. Go land 5 Non-MB spells of the same element, and at the same time on any Wyrm.
I'm very doubtful they'll all do full damage.


Which is it?

The window is very short for temporary elemental resistance for NMs; you really have to drop those nukes within a second of each other for that happen. This isn't the responsibility of the SCH to control; if your BLM party can't coordinate their nukes to avoid this damage reduction, then they're certainly not going to be able to coordinate using damage builds during Klimaform, so the entire point is moot.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#33 Aug 01 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Category 2 Dark Arts Strategems merits are for Tabula Rasa. I included it for completion's sake, and did not quote it as SCH's saving grace in any situation.

You implied it by listing it alongside enmity gear for reasons why SCH can nuke more often.


What I wrote:

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SCH has tools that allow it to reduce/eliminate the need for short rests (Parsimony/Sublimation), and the need to space their nukes out to avoid excessive enmity generation (Enmity- sets, Equanimity)


If you think I implied something by that statement that's your business; in reality, you're just reading into it way too much.

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Sorry, what? You're saying that it doesn't cost SCH anything because they have a Light Arts set, yet it costs BLM more? Uh... right. Sorry, but as a SCH I have most of my inventory filled with my gear swaps for Scholar. If you want to talk about costs, the inventory space for SCH is far greater than the need for it on BLM. We're already carrying most of the gear a BLM does and more besides! A good mage worth their salt comes prepared with all the gear they might need, that applies to Black Mages as well as Scholars.


Are you aware of what an opportunity cost is? I'll try to explain it better. SCH already carries an Enmity- set for Light Arts. This is standard gear. Therefore, you already have it on your person. If you can find another use for it, such as nuking, the opportunity cost is zero because it costs you exactly zero inventory slots for another set of gear. BLM, on the other hand, does not generally carry around an Enmity- set for Cures; therefore their opportunity cost for carrying a full Enmity- set is much higher, because they're giving up inventory slots for a very specific set of gear that is highly situational.

I'm not saying BLM can't carry a set of Enmity- gear; I'm saying that if they choose to, they have to sacrifice other gear to do it. This matters.

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The reason BLM generally takes more enmity from attacks has more to do with how much damage they deal than the -enmity gear they equip.


This has nothing to do with anything. It's common sense.

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You can't reach the enmity cap if you're working towards 320/120. And if you decided to drop some of that skill or INT for whatever reason, all you're doing is losing out on vital accuracy. Klimaform only goes some way to improving the deficit, but as countless BLMs have already pointed out, 320/120 is the absolute minimum not really the recommended stats for high level nuking.


All I can say is, nuking in Enmity- gear is highly situational. You need to realize that when you are nuking, there's two limits on how much damage you can deal; MP remaining, which we deal with by maximizing DMG:MP ratios; and Enmity, which acts as a hard cap on the amount of damage you can deal at any given time. This is extremely important to understand. If there is a hard cap on the amount of damage you can do, does it really matter if you get there in 2 nukes or 10 nukes? No, it doesn't. In this situation, the only way to increase the amount of damage you can deal is by lowering the Enmity generation of your spells. Keep in mind the Enmity- is a percentage; meaning, Enmity- has increasing returns, much like Haste. If you can manage Enmity-50, you've just doubled the amount of damage you can deal without taking hate. It doesn't matter if every spell you cast in Enmity- gear is resisted; you will be able to deal much more damage in the long run. This is why SCH excels in these situations.

-Low-to-zero opportunity cost Enmity- set
-Klimaform to increase accuracy
-Parsimony to increase number of casts

I really hope this is clear now.

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Oh, but it does matter. The reason is because BLM can still obtain Refresh while SCH cannot if they're using Sublimation. A single RDM can refresh a team of BLMs for 3mp/tick which would easily outdo a SCH's Sublimation. In short, you'd probably just go with the Refresh unless you were close to full MP or preparing a charge to start off.


There are 3 jobs in the game that can give other players Refresh. 2 of those forms of Refresh stack with Sublimation. 1 of those jobs is much better suited for a BLM party than a RDM is. So basically, a RDM evens out the total refresh between BLM and SCH, while a BRD or COR just stacks it on. I'm gonna have to stick with advantage: SCH.

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Really? Because from the reasons I've heard so far, all of those maths seem to believe we have an endless supply of Strategems. We don't. We have FOUR. Count them. Each one recharging over a 1 minute period. Which means if you're gobbling them up constantly for Parsimonies and Ebulliences and Alacrities, you're going to be running low very quickly indeed.


I've taken Strategem recast into account in all my posts, so I'm not sure why you're directing this at me. Besides, if you are "gobbling them up constantly for Parsimonies and Ebuilliences and Alacrities," chances are you are using Tabula Rasa.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#34 Aug 01 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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This whole argument is completely retarded... This is why: SCH has only 1 end-game niche: whatever any mage can do for end-game (except refresh people).

Choose what you wanna do.
If you wanna nuke, it's possible and effective.
If you wanna main heal, it's possible and effective.
If you wanna support either mage, tank, or melee PT, it's possible and effective.
If you wanna debuff, it's possible and effective.

BLM vs SCH is this:

SCH is infinitely more versitle.
SCH deals a little less damage.
SCH is considerably more efficient.
BLM is considerably less complicated.
SCH is considerably cheaper.
#35 Aug 01 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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This whole argument is completely retarded...


There's a difference between an argument and a debate.

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This is why: SCH has only 1 end-game niche: whatever any mage can do for end-game (except refresh people).


SCH can't Stun, can't cast AM2/-ga, can't cast Haste, can't cast Refresh, can't cast Slow II...

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BLM vs SCH is this:

SCH is infinitely more versitle. Infinitely? Strong word.
SCH deals a little less damage. How? Per nuke? Over time?
SCH is considerably more efficient. At doing what?
BLM is considerably less complicated. Why?
SCH is considerably cheaper. Cheaper how? Gil? MP? Broken?


I don't think I'm alone in saying that, given the level and detail of the debate in this thread, your blanket statements aren't really adding anything to it. Everything you listed is common knowledge; we're debating the finer points.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#36 Aug 01 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it's pretty clear why I brought up helices; they're damaging spells that can be cast without Addendum: Black, and I pointed out their situational use as soon as I mentioned them. All nitpicking aside, this is nitpicking.


Again; what does this have to do with the whole Klimaform thing? Clearly Einherjar mobs are not resistant mobs; and can be Helixed for decent damage. How does this have anything to do with AoE klimaform?

You're pretty much arguing on your own. I not once said to avoid using helixes on non-resistant mobs or anything. It's like you're on a completely different tangent here.


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I was pointing out that even when burning 3 Strategems every 3 minutes on Storm/Klimaform for the entire party, SCH is still able to deal damage with lower tier spells.


I think I see the problem here. You're thinking I'm arguing that the stratagem usage is the detrimental factor. No; I haven't argued that in the least.

I'm arguing that a 80%ish Magic Hit Rate is the detrimental factor. Be it a tier III, II, I, or IV.
320/120 doesn't cut it. Suddenly putting such a crippling effect (80%ish hitrate and virtually no +Damage) on the the one of the top Magic DD is poor planning.
It only takes 1 or 2 resists from the SCH for all that Extra damage from the BLM's to get even; any extra resists and you got a deficit. This isn't rocket science; It's simple math.

And again: nothing to do with stratagems here, at all.

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if your BLM party can't coordinate their nukes to avoid this damage reduction, then they're certainly not going to be able to coordinate using damage builds during Klimaform, so the entire point is moot.


So more on logistics problems. Now on top of maximizing that 1 minute of Klimaform; you want to coordinate all the nukes to go off in a sequence that will not cause resists.

How exactly are you going to pull that off and also take full advantage of the 1 minute duration? I'm curious.
Really, no matter how I picture it either you end up with mages overlapping, or you end up with mages not emptying their MP pool.

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#37 Aug 01 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Again; what does this have to do with the whole Klimaform thing? Clearly Einherjar mobs are not resistant mobs; and can be Helixed for decent damage. How does this have anything to do with AoE klimaform?

You're pretty much arguing on your own. I not once said to avoid using helixes on non-resistant mobs or anything. It's like you're on a completely different tangent here.


Again, It's the same thing as Crystan getting on my case about mentioning Equanimity as a tool to reduce enmity. I was listing spells that cause damage and are able to be cast without Addendum: Black; Helices fit these criteria. I even stated they are of limited use on HNM as soon as I brought them up. They are still situationally useful. You are reading too much into it.

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think I see the problem here. You're thinking I'm arguing that the stratagem usage is the detrimental factor. No; I haven't argued that in the least.

I'm arguing that a 80%ish Magic Hit Rate is the detrimental factor. Be it a tier III, II, I, or IV.
320/120 doesn't cut it. Suddenly putting such a crippling effect (80%ish hitrate and virtually no +Damage) on the the one of the top Magic DD is poor planning.
It only takes 1 or 2 resists from the SCH for all that Extra damage from the BLM's to get even; any extra resists and you got a deficit. This isn't rocket science; It's simple math.

And again: nothing to do with stratagems here, at all.


As you will have Klimaform up while nuking regardless of whether you Manifestation it or not, this 80% hitrate argument of yours doesn't even matter. The only difference here is that you want to spam Klimaform solely on yourself, giving you more time to cast your unresisted spells, whereas I want to spam it on the entire party to increase their damage and reduce my resists. Using your method, you can cast unresisted spells for 2 minutes out of every 3; using mine, I can cast unresisted spells for half of that while increasing the entire party's damage output. Realize that I add the additional damage caused by the BLMs to the damage I cause, then compare it to how much damage you deal on your own. I don't see how solo casting Klimaform could possibly compare to using Manifestation.

This really depends on how many nukers you have. If your purpose is to just flat-out DD, and you're not stuck in the BLM party, then yeah, sure, have at it with your self-Klimaform spam. However, if you're in a party with 4 BLMs and a COR, you are lowering your party's potential damage output.

Also, I think you're a little too generous on your estimations of magic accuracy. Even a perfectly geared BLM gets resists on Tiamat and Kirin, for example.

You are right though, I think we went off on two seperate tangents here. I think what we really need is some testing to put some real numbers on this.

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So more on logistics problems. Now on top of maximizing that 1 minute of Klimaform; you want to coordinate all the nukes to go off in a sequence that will not cause resists.

How exactly are you going to pull that off and also take full advantage of the 1 minute duration? I'm curious.
Really, no matter how I picture it either you end up with mages overlapping, or you end up with mages not emptying their MP pool.


Space your nukes out in 3 second intervals; this allows for 20 nukes to land within a minute without causing undue resists, and allows 4 BLMs to land 5 nukes each. If your BLMs can't handle this, I'd hate to see their Stun order.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#38 Aug 01 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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As you will have Klimaform up while nuking regardless of whether you Manifestation it or not, this 80% hitrate argument of yours doesn't even matter.


So now I'm also not nuking under non-klimaform; further reducing my damage. Right.

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whereas I want to spam it on the entire party to increase their damage and reduce my resists.


Reduce resists of who? The BLM's could have capped it without it. You're just letting them use stuff like Wizard Petastos instead of Sorcerer Petastos and everything else it entails.
This isn't that big of a damage increase like to base all your strategies around it, much less organize everyone into 1 minute 3 cycle intervals (For less damage); and comes at the price of the rest of the SCH Damage.

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Also, I think you're a little too generous on your estimations of magic accuracy. Even a perfectly geared BLM gets resists on Tiamat and Kirin, for example.


In my parsers I have around 7/10 Land rate even with Klimaform. This are mostly spells landing at the same time getting a cut; and some spells cast outside Klima. So I'm believing this is the same (Cuts or flukes).

I don't know about kirin tho; I never get to nuke him like to have some standing ground here. But it doesn't really matter; as I don't believe the BLM's will stand around together long enough on kirin <.<

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You are right though, I think we went off on two seperate tangents here. I think what we really need is some testing to put some real numbers on this.


Good enough. I'll play with the calculator later to see just how much of an increase AoE entails.

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- Pythagoras
#39 Aug 01 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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So now I'm also not nuking under non-klimaform; further reducing my damage. Right.


It's not that you aren't nuking while Klimaform is down; If I had an 80% landing rate without Klimaform, I'd still be nuking after it wore if that was my role in the fight. Figure that between the two, you have a minute with capped accuracy, and a minute without, with the 3rd minute irrelevant for our purposes. 80% landing rate means you'll see one half resist per 5 casts on average, so you're only losing half a nuke's worth of damage (numbers will vary of course) during that minute, which works out to a 10% reduction from what you'd deal with the second minute of Klimaform.

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Reduce resists of who?


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whereas I want to spam it on the entire party to increase their damage and reduce my resists.


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You're just letting them use stuff like Wizard Petastos instead of Sorcerer Petastos and everything else it entails.
This isn't that big of a damage increase like to base all your strategies around it, much less organize everyone into 1 minute 3 cycle intervals (For less damage); and comes at the price of the rest of the SCH Damage.


The more well-geared a BLM is, the wider the difference in damage between their resist sets and max-damage sets. If you have subpar to average BLMs, I readily concede that it may be better to forgo casting Klimaform on them. And again, just because you're casting Klimaform one minute out of every three doesn't mean they can't keep nuking after it wears off. The only way I would recommend this is if they absolutely needed the accuracy to land their spells reliably in the first place, but that's a different situation altogether.

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I don't know about kirin tho; I never get to nuke him like to have some standing ground here. But it doesn't really matter; as I don't believe the BLM's will stand around together long enough on kirin <.<


I always just designate one pillar as the BLM pillar so that whenever they're not casting, they come back and rest and get buffs. Definitely not foolproof, but it helps.

Quote:
Good enough. I'll play with the calculator later to see just how much of an increase AoE entails.


Excellent, I'll look forward to seeing them. I'll see what I can do as well.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#40Ahlah, Posted: Aug 06 2009 at 1:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There is some honest and accurate information in this thread, I have never posted on this forum but I think ppl who are leveling SCH for endgame use should really know what they are getting into, esp if you are leveling the job as a damage dealer.
#41 Aug 06 2009 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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629 posts
Ahlah wrote:
There is some honest and accurate information in this thread, I have never posted on this forum but I think ppl who are leveling SCH for endgame use should really know what they are getting into, esp if you are leveling the job as a damage dealer.

From endgame LS point of view it's not cost effective to replace BLM with SCH. A lot of discussion is focusing on damage aspect of both jobs, BLMs have access to Elemental Seal, Stun and aga spells, the first two are extremely useful in Wyrm fight, the only few endgame battles where nukers actually shine. Imagine fighting Jailer of Love without aga nukes.

The whole arguement about SCH being a superior nuker due to better MP management is pointless and shouldn't be an issue if a HNMLS hire enough BLMs. Just get BLMs to dump MP and switch out those who depleted their MP pool you effectively create a group of BLMs who can continue nuking non stop. In theory, SCHs only outnuke BLMs if they fight lasts long enough for them to take advantage of their JAs, who wants a long fight when you can just rotate BLMs to speed up the process?

IMO, hybrig jobs are not designed for endgame use. SCH is a good choice for ppl who just want a mage job that offer both offensive and healing ability but are too lazy/unwilling/not interest in leveling BLM or WHM. If you already have BLM and WHM, there is no practical reason to level SCH for endgame purpose.


Except that extending the fight by a small amount completely alleviates the need to bring extra people. Have you ever heard of low-manning something? Ever in a situation where you need someone to nuke, but there might be a chance that nuker might need to heal for a while so a healer can catch his breath? SCH's perfect for this situation. If a SCH gears and fights properly, over the course of a full MP pool, he will easily match a BLM's output. *I use the word easily in correlation with the intelligence required to gear yourself and fight properly.*

"Cost effective" is relative to the LS's abilities and desires. If the LS has 4000 BLMs that they can throw at something, then by all means... throw 4000 BLMs at it and be done. Few LSs have this, however. Some only have a handful of BLMs that can come BLM to every event. Some people *shocking, I know* prefer an extended fight. I myself hate zerg situations, because they're boring. I have THF as a zerg job and I absolutely loathe it. I would rather fight things the old-fashioned way and have fun than kill it in seconds and get the drops.

Simply put, in an extended time frame, the SCH's efficiency will crush the BLM's. Whether or not this is most beneficial is up to the group fighting said monster. You have no justification coming here and spouting your opinion as if it's fact.
#42 Aug 06 2009 at 6:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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479 posts
Ahlah wrote:

IMO, hybrig jobs are not designed for endgame use. SCH is a good choice for ppl who just want a mage job that offer both offensive and healing ability but are too lazy/unwilling/not interest in leveling BLM or WHM. If you already have BLM and WHM, there is no practical reason to level SCH for endgame purpose.



While I do agree with the argument that there is more to the BLM vs SCH debate than just, "SCH is more MP efficient and thus a better nuker," this last little bit of your post I have to strongly disagree with.

I disagree for 2 reasons. First, you completely ignore the enhancing/support aspects of SCH. Secondly, as was already mentioned, in a low man situation SCH is the perfect job to have, as it can nuke, heal AND provide buffs. This versatility is amazing.

SCH has a place endgame either in the BLM party or the tank party. It has nothing to do with not wanting to/being too lazy to level other mage jobs. People who don't play the job or don't understand it often forget how beneficial it's unique JA's are.
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#43 Aug 06 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
BLMs have access to Elemental Seal, Stun and aga spells, the first two are extremely useful in Wyrm fight, the only few endgame battles where nukers actually shine. Imagine fighting Jailer of Love without aga nukes.


I think a lot of BLMs come in here and get butthurt when they read these threads, and I'm not entirely sure why it's directed at us. We didn't design the job, SE did. Go complain about it in the feedback forum.

As such, nobody in here is trying to make BLM obsolete. In addition to the situations listed above, BLM is clearly irreplaceable in many strategies. Most of the time we don't even compete with BLM for their high-end gear in endgame, since we can't use it. All we're trying to do is maximize our effectiveness in both Light Arts and Dark Arts; and as BLM is the primary Elemental Magic job in the game, it's obviously the job we're going to compare ourselves to when looking to parse our effectiveness. Notice how all the WHM Q.Qing over SCH went away after their epic update? Please, spare us and go ***** to SE.

Quote:
The whole arguement about SCH being a superior nuker due to better MP management is pointless and shouldn't be an issue if a HNMLS hire enough BLMs.


Sure, if your HNMLS has an endless supply of PLD RDM WHM BLM BRD SAM you can kill anything. However, we here in the Scholar forums prefer to base our ideas in reality.

Quote:
Just get BLMs to dump MP and switch out those who depleted their MP pool you effectively create a group of BLMs who can continue nuking non stop.


Why would you want a BLM rotation when a SCH can just keep nuking through all that nonsense? If all you're looking for is quantity of nukes being cast, SCH automatically wins. Why not get an army of SCHs to rotate out? They'll last a lot longer than your BLMs and deal more damage per MP pool.

Quote:
In theory, SCHs only outnuke BLMs if they fight lasts long enough for them to take advantage of their JAs, who wants a long fight when you can just rotate BLMs to speed up the process?


This is not a theory, it is a fact. Numbers say hi.

Also, a fight only has to last longer than it takes to cast 2-3 tierIV nukes in order for SCH's MP efficiency to shine. If it doesn't last that long, they can use Alacrity to spam nukes twice as fast as a BLM, and/or Ebullience to give them more power, since they won't be needing Parsimony to maintain their MP.

Quote:
IMO, hybrig jobs are not designed for endgame use.


Corsair is a hybrid job. Red Mage is a hybrid job. Blue Mage is a hybrid job. You're telling me your 12-BLM-rotating HNMLS doesn't use any of these jobs either?

Quote:
SCH is a good choice for ppl who just want a mage job that offer both offensive and healing ability but are too lazy/unwilling/not interest in leveling BLM or WHM.


Lazy? This alone shows that you are woefully ignorant of all the effort that goes into gearing, preparing, and playing an effective Scholar, and should therefore keep these opinions to yourself.

Quote:
If you already have BLM and WHM, there is no practical reason to level SCH for endgame purpose.


If you already have BLM and WHM, chances are you already have 80% of the gear needed to play SCH, giving you the versatility of another mage job for a minimum of inventory cost. If anything, that sounds like the definition of practical to me.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#44Ahlah, Posted: Aug 06 2009 at 11:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is so predictable.
#45 Aug 06 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
The design of SCH does not give the job any advantage in endgame events. We are talking about HNM situations of course. The game mechanism simply favours job specialisation.


I'm sorry, are we talking about endgame events, or HNM situations? Last time I checked HNM was only one aspect of endgame.

Quote:
Experienced HNMLS mainly use BLMs as endgame damage dealers in specific and limited situations, i.e. Wyrm fights, JoL and certain ZNMs, and pretty much meleeburn everything else. BLM completely outshine SCH under those circumstance.


Ok, so now you're including non-HNM situations, further confusing your initial point. You say BLM completely outshine SCH under these circumstances, but you are exceedingly vague. Do they deal more damage per nuke? Of course, but SCH can cast many, many more of them over a comparable period of time, and can reach the accepted HNM skill/INT targets, so resists are not an issue. I think it's pretty obvious that a SCH is going to deal more damage over time than a BLM will. This will become even more prevalent when you rely on magic damage as your primary damage source. Your vague arguments have no place in this thread.

Quote:
Versality of SCH is highly overrated, charge system is the biggest downfall of the job, switching between light and dark art means sacrificing charges which will also affect the overall performance of SCH. SCH can't really function as a effective nuker and support at the same time in important event.


Allow me to explain a critical point of playing SCH:

Just because we can switch between Light Arts and Dark Arts once per minute, does not mean it is the best way to play. Doing so increases your versatility at the expense of Strategems, and as such is not an efficient way to play in many situations. In order to compare to a pure nuking job or a pure healing job, you need every strategem you can get, meaning you must stay in one Arts or the other.

Your entire post seems centered around this misconception. I hope I have corrected it for you.

The versatility of SCH is not limited to Light Arts/Dark Arts. In Dark Arts alone, I can choose to Parsimony spam nukes to achieve DMG:MP ratios untouchable by a perfectly geared BLM. I can choose to Alacrity spam nukes to deal enough damage in a short period of time to outdo a BLM casting AM2s. I can choose to Ebullience spam nukes to help even the field between SCH and BLM damage per nuke in situations where the opportunity to nuke is short. I can choose to nuke in Enmity- gear to raise the total amount of damage I can deal within the same Enmity cap. Again, you are only showing your ignorance concerning the intricacies of this job.

Quote:
Endgame is all about job specialisation, there is always a better job than SCH to take up the role required by a 18 man alliance, unlike COR, SCH has no unique ability which is highly beneficial and influential enough to warrant a party spot, if you take away certain phantom rolls COR is just a 2nd class hybrid job, same can be said about RDM, without refresh/haste/enfeebling skill, RDM is just a gimp worthless WHM/BLM combo.


Nice sentence structure.

I think you are mistaken; endgame is not about job specialization, it's about role specialization. You need tanks, healers, support, melee DD, ranged DD, magical DD. Any number of jobs can fill these roles.

You say that SCH has no unique ability which is highly beneficial and influential enough to warrant a party spot? Again, more ignorance concerning Scholar coming from you. Under Light Arts, we can use Accession to AoE Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Aquaveil, among other spells. Under Dark Arts, we have Klimaform, which is not self-cast only and adds magic accuracy, along with storm spells, also not self-cast only, which can be used to greatly increase magical damage. This is all without taking into account SCH's ability to tailor their nukes to each individual situation, something which BLM doesn't even come close to. Then of course there is Manifestation, which allows us to Klimaform an entire party of BLMs. It also allows you to cast Bindga and Graviga, which is entirely unique to SCH and game-changing in a variety of endgame scenarios.

As for your comparisons of COR and RDM, I think that logic is indicative of your thinking on this subject. Take away COR's rolls and RDM's Haste/Refresh/Enfeebling skill, and then compare them to other jobs? This isn't even close to being a fair comparison, or a halfway intelligent one. More and more I'm convinced you're just trolling this thread.

Quote:
Another BLM or a COR in BLM party instead of SCH, a 2nd BRD or COR in tank party instead of SCH will yield much better result.


No, no, no, just no. You have no idea what you're talking about, it's embarrassing. I would go into this further, but if you had taken the time to scroll up a few posts, you would see why.

Quote:
You can play the job whatever way you want but ppl who are leveling the job for endgame purpose should know what they are getting into, SCH is really not good enough to compete with other jobs in their corrensponding field. It's so called versatility is pointless in endgame situation.


People should know what they're getting into; I just hope they don't listen to a word you say. I think you expect SCH to be able to outnuke a BLM per nuke, buff the tank party, buff the BLM party, and mainheal all at once. That's not versatility; that's impossibility. SCH is limited by strategem recast; this prevents them from doing all these things that they are capable of at once, but when they tailor their abilities to specialize their actions for a particular role, you'll find they are quite powerful.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#46 Aug 06 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
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365 posts
Its pretty simple I don't see the point in long arguments:

A Pimped out SCH will match a well geared BLM for damage and resists.
A pimped out BLM will beat a SCH for damage and resists.

MP efficiency is a moot point as both jobs are limited by the tank's ability to hold hate and time needed to reduce hate built from damage. A BLM will reach that limit sooner allowing them to restore MP while a SCH will reach that limit slower but with less MP used.

If you want to do damage and have that be your main focus level BLM.
If you want to be more versatile while still being able to deal damage then level SCH.

____________________________
Bismarck: Zagen
#47 Aug 06 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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479 posts
Ahlah, you're a bit confused aren't you?

First, there is a difference between saying "endgame" and "HNM." One is only a subsection of the other. If we want to talk about endgame events in general, you will be hard pressed to argue that SCH does not have a place in ANY of these events. I don't know about your world but in mine I include Ein, Dynamis, Salvage, Limbus and other events in my definition of endgame. And SCH is very nice in Ein and Salvage.

As for low-manning, of course there is not a single event that cannot be low-manned without SCH. Barring a PLD or NIN in certain situations, there isn't any event that cannot be done without one job. The point that we, or at least I, am trying to make is that in these type of events, versatility shines. Having a member that can competently fulfill just about any mage role is a great asset to have. You don't think being able to nuke extremely well, heal extremely well, being an incredibly MP efficient job and also being able to provide buffs to your party does not give SCH any type of advantage? You also don't think that being the, if not one of the best crowd control jobs in the game is also not an advantage?

Now, if you are talking ONLY about HNM situations then I still don't see your point. If the mob is going to be dead in 2 minutes, then yes, a BLM is going to do more damage. For anything that is going to last longer, however, a SCH is going to do more damage over time. You also ignore the fact that, while you could replace that SCH with a BLM for arguably more nuking power, that BLM cannot improve the performance of the entire BLM party. You can still nuke competently and buff a BLM party. Now obviously if you need a stun rotation, you aren't going to have a SCH. If you need to -ga3 a bunch of mobs, get another BLM. A SCH, however, can at a minimum increase the damage of each BLM by 10%. Multiply that by 3 or 4 and then add in the SCH's own damage. That's nothing to sneeze at.

And while you obviously have numerous jobs leveled, SCH is not one of them and you lack knowledge about how the job is actually played. What I do in party obviously revolves around the other members and the monster(s) being fought, however, I can support a party and nuke. The strategms and Light Arts/Dark Arts timer is limiting, but it's not as cripling as you make it. Enlightenment only further enhances this. I can give a nice round of Phalanxga, Stoneskinga, pop over to Dark Arts, put up Klimaform and throw out a Cryohelix, Bliz IV and Blizz III and not need to use a single charge doing it.

And there are specific advantages that SCH has over other jobs: status removal, nuking efficiency, crowd control (situational), alliance healing and it has unique buffs.

Now I'm not saying throw 6 SCH's at a mob. But having at least one SCH in your alliance would be very beneficial.
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#48Ahlah, Posted: Aug 06 2009 at 3:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Status removal - WHM
#49 Aug 06 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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629 posts
I love the ignorance I am witnessing today. Allow me to challenge a few statements you made:

"Another BLM or COR will be more beneficial than a SCH."

I don't have a BLM PT without a COR. 2 is wasteful in one PT. This leaves us with BLM BLM BLM BLM COR XXX. In a situation where all the BLMs are geared equally, you can figure that with 4 BLMs, they will each share 25% of the total damage. Adding another BLM will add another 25%.

Now, it's commonly accepted that a SCH geared equally well as a BLM will result in about 80% of that BLM's damage on a nuke for nuke basis. Just adding that SCH's personal damage, that is adding 20% damage. This is not considering stratagem usage. What isn't considered by you, however, is the SCH's ability to up the BLM's damage by 10% each. This means that instead of adding 20% damage to the PT, he's actually adding 30%.

Now let's account for stratagems and battle length. A SCH worth his salt will get anywhere from 20%-80% more damage out of a single pool of MP. If the fight lasts lon enouh to expend a single MP pool, then the SCH will outdo the BLM's damage by the end of the fight. Should the fight last enough to expend 2 or more MP pools, the SCH's superior MP restoration utilities will widen that gap even further.

Should some poo hit the fan and something happen to the healer(s), the SCH can easily change gears and effectively step into that role until things are brought back under control. While, yes, it's not effective to actively switch back and forth, sometimes the situation calls for a switch in roles. SCH has no problem making such an dramatic change on a dime.

I have WHM, BLM, SCH, and RDM. There are things when WHM is better than SCH for healing, things when BLM is better than SCH for nuking, things when both WHM and SCH or BLM and SCH can work in tandem for maximum benefit, and there are situations where SCH can outshine the others at the respective role.

I'm simply saying, "SCH vs BLM" is stupid.
#50 Aug 06 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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479 posts
Ahlah wrote:
SCH can potentially outnuke BLM only in drawn out fight when BLMs lose out due to limitation of MP pool, i.e. HNM fight. Anyone who understands the logic behind it shouldn't even mention Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar, as BLM will always outperform SCH in those events. Based on my 3 year experience as a salvage LS leader I can tell you SCH is arguably the worst support job in Salvage. If you want a detailed analysis we can discuss it in a separate post.


And this completely contradicts your previous rant about how BLM clearly outshines SCH on HNM. So I ask you, which is it?

What logic? Place that BLM is either of those 3 events, and it will nuke harder, but that's it. SCH brings more to the table than just nuking, espeically crowd control in Ein. But more importantly, that wasn't the point you were trying to make. You claimed that SCH has no place in these events. Again, I challenge you to show me exactly how a SCH cannot be beneficial in either of these events.

And I've been doing Salvage just as long as you. When we go as 6, our set up is brd rdm mnk mnk thf and I am just about always asked to go as SCH. I could go as WHM and be a better healer, but not be able to add any magical damage or some useful buffs. I could go as BLM and nuke harder, but not be much use in other departments.

Quote:
In virtually any low man event, all the support jobs you need are RDM + WHM + BRD. Throw in a COR you just build a combo which offers the most important buffs in this game (haste/march/refresh, excellent crowd control, virtually bottomless combined MP pool.


You don't need any of those jobs in particular either. Your argument was that you don't NEED SCH to lowman things. You don't NEED a brd, cor, whm or rdm to low-man most things either.

Quote:
I think a lot of ppl overemphasize the importance of MP effiency. MP management was never and will never be a major issue in the competent hands. There are sufficient gear/merit/refresh spells to support any event in this game. It all down to what unique abilities each job can bring to the table. Can you bring a SCH to low man event? sure. Will you make the most optimal setup? the answer is no.


First, MP efficiency is not overemphasized. Where it not for said efficiency, RDM would not be the uber job that it is and SCH would not be the great nuker that it is. And you've also conceded the point that in a drawn out fight, MP is important. That's just a fact. Secondly, there is no such thing as an optimal setup. The objective is to accomplish whatever the task is in an efficient and relatively hassle free manner. You have yet to say anything that would allow one to think that such an outcome cannot be achieved by including a SCH.


Quote:

Status removal - WHM
Nuking efficiency - read above
Crowd control - you already said it's situational, if you spend all your charges doing aoe sleep it will affect other aspect of your performance
Alliance healing - a properly built alliance should have dedicated support job in each party, there is no reason to bring a SCH so that they can aoe cure member in other party
Unique buffs - unique but not good enough for SCH to take up a party spot


Status removal - No, if you need aoe status removal, SCH is still better unless your WHM has a mystic weapon.
Nuking efficiency - As I said, you're a bit inconsistent on this one, so I don't even no how to respond.
Crowd control - the situational comment had nothing to do with stratagem usage. I think BLMs are better sleepers do to the fact that it has 4 different sleep spells with its Sleepga spells having a shorter recast, although SCH does have higher skill. If you need to gravity or bind mobs that can't be slept then SCH is preferred. That is what I meant by situational. Also, if I am there to do crowd control, I'm there to do crowd control. How that impacts my support ability is mute. I'm not there to buffga. Once my crowd control duties are over, I'm free to use my charges for other things.
Alliance healing - it's a bonus. No, you would not invite a SCH purely so they can buff and heal another party. It's just an added perk of having them already there. I don't do it often, but I HAVE done it. As is often said, sometimes stuff happens.
Unique buffs - When combined with everything else, I disagree.

I find the SCH vs BLM debate to be rather stupid. It's not an either or question. I responded to this thread only because I find your claim that SCH has no place endgame to be ridiculous.
____________________________
Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#51 Aug 06 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
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1,898 posts
Sasaraixx wrote:
Status removal - No, if you need aoe status removal, SCH is still better unless your WHM has a mystic weapon.
It's mythic weapon, and I don't think it's as clear cut as you say. A WHM can remove 4 status effects from the entire group in 30 seconds or less with two Esunas, and they won't run out of charges.

SCH obviously has the advantage when it's best to keep your distance, or if it's silence, paralyze or petrify.

Also, WHM still has the limited use of Divine Veil. WHM has an advantage with prolonged AoE spam on the other things, with better MP and enmity efficiency in this area. WHM would be better for spamming Esuna on say, bats in Einherjar because there is no way a SCH can keep up with the charges. Also Sacrifice is pretty handy too. SCH can not remove 7 effects from the tank at once, which is particularly handy when it's multiple erase effects. WHM also has the instant all status cure from Benediction in the worst of emergencies. They both have their advantages and disadvantages and I would not definitively state that one is always better than the other.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 10:30pm by JingWoo
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