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SCH vs. BLMFollow

#52Ahlah, Posted: Aug 07 2009 at 1:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Seriously, stop focusing on the job itself, and think of how the job interacts with other jobs in standard endgame events.
#53Ahlah, Posted: Aug 07 2009 at 1:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I hope you don't gimp your party by bringing SCH or BLM to salvage if you also have WHM leveled. I hope your group leader read what I am about to post here.
#54 Aug 07 2009 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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479 posts
JingWoo wrote:
It's mythic weapon, and I don't think it's as clear cut as you say. A WHM can remove 4 status effects from the entire group in 30 seconds or less with two Esunas, and they won't run out of charges.

SCH obviously has the advantage when it's best to keep your distance, or if it's silence, paralyze or petrify.

Also, WHM still has the limited use of Divine Veil. WHM has an advantage with prolonged AoE spam on the other things, with better MP and enmity efficiency in this area. WHM would be better for spamming Esuna on say, bats in Einherjar because there is no way a SCH can keep up with the charges. Also Sacrifice is pretty handy too. SCH can not remove 7 effects from the tank at once, which is particularly handy when it's multiple erase effects. WHM also has the instant all status cure from Benediction in the worst of emergencies. They both have their advantages and disadvantages and I would not definitively state that one is always better than the other.


Valid arguments. I'm not saying that WHM is not competent in this department. However the advantages you listed for SCH tip the balance for me. Those are the 3 most troublesome na's to remove and being able to keep distance is an asset. WHM does have the advantage in prolonged status removal and while it does not have to worry about charges, it does have to worry about the restrictions of Esuna and possibly having to use Sacrifice as well (when possible) which makes the process more cumbersome.

You are right, however, WHM does have clear advantages in some aspects.



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BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#55 Aug 07 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
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2,976 posts
Quote:
I'm not saying BLM can't carry a set of Enmity- gear; I'm saying that if they choose to, they have to sacrifice other gear to do it. This matters.
Wrong. The very point I was getting at is that if a SCH has more equipment by default then extra gear is more costly than it would be to a BLM, since the BLM actually has the space for additional equipment. This matters more. All they're doing, effectively, is filling up the equipment slots that a Scholar would otherwise be using.

It's simple really. A SCH has, often, a Sublimation set (Lots of HP, Rlc body, AF hat), A nuking set, and their AF set. A BLM would be carrying a nuking set and an enmity set. Both are carrying eight elemental staves, both are carrying various staff straps and elemental obis. Surely you can see the logic that any cost to the BLM is minimal compared to the cost of additional gear weighing down a Scholar?

Quote:
I've taken Strategem recast into account in all my posts, so I'm not sure why you're directing this at me. Besides, if you are "gobbling them up constantly for Parsimonies and Ebuilliences and Alacrities," chances are you are using Tabula Rasa.
If you're going to quote Tabula Rasa, at least do the BLMs a service and mention Manafont while you're at it. In case you had forgotten, it gives them a massive edge in longevity as well, with every spell eating up a fat ZERO MP. In terms of MP effeciency, this stomps Tabula Rasa into the ground.

Quote:
As you will have Klimaform up while nuking regardless of whether you Manifestation it or not, this 80% hitrate argument of yours doesn't even matter.
Klimaform has a 1 minute duration and a 3 minute recast. That's 2 minutes you're not buffed by it. Furthermore you can DOUBLE that recast if you use Manifestation to SIX minutes. If you plan not to nuke while Klimaform is up, thats another notch to the Black Mages who can do so at any time without worrying about resists as much as we do.

Quote:
However, if you're in a party with 4 BLMs and a COR, you are lowering your party's potential damage output.
Unless your BLMs are having a hard time with their resists (and with all their JA's and gear, they should easily reach a decent level) there is going to be scant difference between a BLM with Klimaform and a BLM without. Lest we forget that Klimaform helps only with reducing resists, not enhancing damage -- there IS a difference! If you're already close to the resist cap, then giving Klimaform out to BLMs is a waste of MP.

Quote:
Also, I think you're a little too generous on your estimations of magic accuracy. Even a perfectly geared BLM gets resists on Tiamat and Kirin, for example.
A word to the wise would tell you that any mob can resist magic, even a level 0 Ronfaure bunny. That's not to say that those monsters are pushovers, not by a long shot, but however accurate you think you can make your Scholar, it will still pale in comparison to the accuracy of a Black Mage. Ensure you factor that in when you consider the benefits.

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This is not a theory, it is a fact. Numbers say hi.
But where are these numbers? We already know that a BLM can hit well over 60 MAB through merits/traits and gear whereas we can probably hit 50 if we sacrifice elemental skill gear to do so. We already know that they're likely to hit more accurately than us without Klimaform, thus tallying up their total damage. We already know that in order for a SCH to nuke effeciently they need to eat a Parsimony and Ebullience strategem for the reduced MP costs and the enhanced damage. We know all this, and we know that eating 2 strats is going to cost us 2 mins of downtime while they recharge.

You claim you have figures that show a BLM being outdone by a Scholar and I would dearly love to see them. Not just pie in the sky and heresay, I want hard solid facts which encompass the higher MAB of a BLM, their gear and accuracy rates, as well as the downtime on our strategems. Something clear and concise so I can see the point you've been trying to make this whole time.

Perhaps im too blinded by my own experiences with Scholar and my own competition with BLMs in my linkshell to spot the subtleties of your hints, but if you hand-on-heart can show me that SCH is more effecient in combat, in damage and lastability, I will concede the round and the match to your wisdom.
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#56 Aug 07 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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629 posts
This argument is going nowhere. People with wrong information or ignorance are both too stubborn. I'll say this: if I had to fight without klimaform vs. Wyrms, I would not be overwhelmed by resists. My experimental INT build has been proving itself highly reliable. As such, the only thing I really lack to output the same numbers as the BLMs is MAB. Extremely high INT values show a significant boost to my damage over the 320/120 build that has less reliable numbers anyway.

SCH doesn't have to eat 2 stratagems to effectively nuke. It all comes down to what you need for the situation. If the fight is a longer fight, stick with parsimony. If the fight is just lon enough for 1 MP pool, ebbullience. If the fight is extremely short, alacrity. This is why this whole understanding is here. Too many people truly don't understand SCH. The job isn't so straightforward that one can say, "this job is better or worse".

Just an FYI, in limbus, I can easily burn a full parsimony MP pool every floor. I rest less often than the pimp BLMs I go with, and I spend half he MP per nuke. I maximize my potency in all my situations, and even having BLM and WHM both leveled, I'm called as SCH the majority of the time for a reason. Perhaps the SCHs you've experienced were sub-par, but I'm not by any means. I like to think of myself as a true representation of the job. Come to ragnarok sometime and experience a real SCH.
#57 Aug 07 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
Wrong. The very point I was getting at is that if a SCH has more equipment by default then extra gear is more costly than it would be to a BLM, since the BLM actually has the space for additional equipment. This matters more. All they're doing, effectively, is filling up the equipment slots that a Scholar would otherwise be using.

It's simple really. A SCH has, often, a Sublimation set (Lots of HP, Rlc body, AF hat), A nuking set, and their AF set. A BLM would be carrying a nuking set and an enmity set. Both are carrying eight elemental staves, both are carrying various staff straps and elemental obis. Surely you can see the logic that any cost to the BLM is minimal compared to the cost of additional gear weighing down a Scholar?


SCH has a very limited selection of gear, but requires a greater variety of gearsets. BLM has access to just about everything, and as such, carry much more gear for nuking. Morrigan's, Nashira, Zenith, Sorc proc.. the list goes on. Add that to the gear that does not differ between the two jobs and you'll find that BLM has very little room to carry Enmity- gear on top of all that. Therefore, if BLM wishes to carry an Enmity- set, they have to sacrifice other gear that they should be carrying instead. This is a pretty easy concept to understand.

Quote:
If you're going to quote Tabula Rasa, at least do the BLMs a service and mention Manafont while you're at it. In case you had forgotten, it gives them a massive edge in longevity as well, with every spell eating up a fat ZERO MP. In terms of MP effeciency, this stomps Tabula Rasa into the ground.


Obvious. I didn't bring up Tabula Rasa to in any way tout it as being better than Manafont; I brought it up because:

Quote:
Besides, if you are "gobbling them up constantly for Parsimonies and Ebuilliences and Alacrities," chances are you are using Tabula Rasa.


You were describing an unrealistic situation; I was merely trying to quantify it somehow. Don't come back on me with this nonsense when I was merely trying to help you articulate your argument better.

Quote:
Klimaform has a 1 minute duration and a 3 minute recast. That's 2 minutes you're not buffed by it. Furthermore you can DOUBLE that recast if you use Manifestation to SIX minutes. If you plan not to nuke while Klimaform is up, thats another notch to the Black Mages who can do so at any time without worrying about resists as much as we do.


/sigh.. have you been reading the other posts? We went over this already. I will not repeat myself when you can just scroll up.

Quote:
Unless your BLMs are having a hard time with their resists (and with all their JA's and gear, they should easily reach a decent level) there is going to be scant difference between a BLM with Klimaform and a BLM without. Lest we forget that Klimaform helps only with reducing resists, not enhancing damage -- there IS a difference! If you're already close to the resist cap, then giving Klimaform out to BLMs is a waste of MP.


Again, either your comprehension is weak or you're just not reading.. You do not give Klimaform to the BLMs so they can continue to nuke in their resist gear. You give it to them so that they can switch to their max damage sets and maintain their accuracy. There is a sizeable difference in damage between a well-geared BLM's resist set and damage set. Add this to the additional weather/obi bonuses they should be receiving (Obis count towards being a well-geared mage, after all) and you will increase their damage by a wide margin.

Quote:
A word to the wise would tell you that any mob can resist magic, even a level 0 Ronfaure bunny. That's not to say that those monsters are pushovers, not by a long shot, but however accurate you think you can make your Scholar, it will still pale in comparison to the accuracy of a Black Mage. Ensure you factor that in when you consider the benefits.


Obvious. Everyone knows there are minimum and maximum values to accuracy. However, I find it curious that you should quote one maxim, then contradict it in the very next sentence. If I make my SCH accurate to the point where I have reached the maximum accuracy value, i.e. capped accuracy, my accuracy will not pale in comparison to the accuracy of a Black Mage, as we will both be at the cap and therefore equal.

Accuracy caps. It has a maximum value, and a minimum value.
INT and MAB do NOT cap. They have no maximum value.

As such, Accuracy has severely decreasing returns, since once you've reached the cap, adding further accuracy results in 0 additional accuracy. Attack stats never cap, although MAB is subject to slightly decreasing returns at high values. This is the same concept behind the reasoning that leads melees to equip Haste/Accuracy gear; the bonuses to Attack and Haste they receive from Food/BRD/COR are greater than the Accuracy bonuses they can receive from the same sources, leading to higher DoT.

Bottom line: You are adding damage by increasing their accuracy with Klimaform, as it allows them to equip more damage gear.

Quote:
But where are these numbers? etc. etc. etc.


I know he hates his LJ getting involved in these disputes, so please, actually click the link this time and read it so I don't have to again. All the numbers you could want can be found here:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/

You are doing your SCH a great disservice if you haven't yet read it.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#58 Aug 07 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
I'm called as SCH the majority of the time for a reason. Perhaps the SCHs you've experienced were sub-par, but I'm not by any means. I like to think of myself as a true representation of the job. Come to ragnarok sometime and experience a real SCH.


I'm sorry, I actually lol'd when i read this.

This disgusts me and has no place in this thread. Please leave if you have nothing more than this internet masturbation to contribute.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#59 Aug 07 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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233 posts
Not looking to stroke the flames any..

As a purely Dark Arts SCH and a BLM, going off the top of my head, my BLM carries more gear then my SCH does.

I freely admit this is helped by not having to haul around Healing potencey and -emn gear, as your average player would likely need, assuming he/she uses SCH in such roles.

Doing a quick count I seem to carry around 50 pieces of gear for SCH (Disclaimer: My SCH nuking sets are far from complete) BLM iirc is around 70.

Stoneskin, Max Damage , Elemental (Resists), and Enfeeb are used on both jobs.

-HP and Enfeeb are probably what push BLM over the edge, I never did get around to minimizing my -HP gear so that doesn't help.

Edit: Forgot Dark and Idle sets, meh.

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 2:11pm by knightfell
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#60 Aug 07 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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629 posts
I'm not saying that to stroke my own ego, but I'm also not about to withold my own performance as an example just because it might come across as braggartism. I know my own performance. I also know the performance of some of the top BLMs on my server. I would never be ashamed to take my SCH or BLM alongside them. So now I ask you this: why is it that they request my SCH?
#61 Aug 07 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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479 posts
Ahlah wrote:

I hope you don't gimp your party by bringing SCH or BLM to salvage if you also have WHM leveled. I hope your group leader read what I am about to post here.


Oh he did, and I'm afraid to say he laughed when I told him about your claim that SCH has no place in endgame and is terrible in Salvage.

As for Salvage in particular, cells are only an issue in Arra and that is the one area that I tend to go WHM if we forsee a problem. In other zones, everyone gets unlocked most runs. Also, if I went as WHM I would need all of the same cells to function with the exception of SJ. And honestly, losing LA and strategms will affect your efficiency. I've gone as SCH on both farming runs and boss runs and we have never had an issue. Please give me your definition of "gimping your group."

You also underestimate benefits and overestimate some problems. Hate is never an issue from buffga. Ever. And that is with MNK/NINs doing the tanking. That Stoneskin that you believe useless after floor 1 saves my RDM from having to cast 1-2 curagas on those archaic gears. The group isn't without curaga, being that the RDM always subs WHM. And, if I'm in cure mode, I have plenty of charges to help with curing and Regenga II is also quite MP efficient. I also fail to see how the extra damage on every swing by our MNKS and THF from enspells after floor one is useless. And my nukes are anything but pathetic and that is without using Ebullience. I still don't know why you're claiming to know so much about a job that you don't play and obviously don't party with often. Charges are a limitation. They are not crippling.

Your problem is that you are making a claim so broad that you cannot possibly support it. At best, you've argued that certain jobs are better at certain things than SCH. That is the way it should be. SCH is a hybrid job. I also don't think you understand how well a SCH can multi-task. It's rarely the case that I find myself waiting on an Arts timer or waiting for a charge, outisde of having fully rebuffed the party (Pro, Shell, Phal, SS). Usually Enlightenment will do the trick.

I just do not see how your arguments can support the claim that a SCH cannot find any place engame. The fact that I and other SCHs routinely do events that you claim SCH has no place in proves that.

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Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
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BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#62 Aug 07 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
I'm not saying that to stroke my own ego, but I'm also not about to withold my own performance as an example just because it might come across as braggartism.


There is a difference between bringing your own performance into discussion to make a point, and fapping all over the place.

Quote:
I like to think of myself as a true representation of the job. Come to ragnarok sometime and experience a real SCH.


A huge difference. Change the words "job" and "SCH" and this could be a Craigslist sex ad.

It's a shame really because you've made some points here and there that make sense, but then you go and ruin it with this nonsense.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#63 Aug 07 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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479 posts
Ahlah wrote:
Seriously, stop focusing on the job itself, and think of how the job interacts with other jobs in standard endgame events.


And to that, I would say that you really don't have an understanding of how SCH works. You need to narrow your scope.

Quote:
In virtually any manaburnable endgame event, it's always more beneficial to use multiple BLMs as primary nukers because:
1) BLM always outnuke SCH in shorter fight (Limbus, sky mini gods etc) or events that provide frequent mean to recover MP (Dynamis, Limbus)

And other than Stun, they bring nothing else to the table that SCH can't do. SCH has two other roles it can bring with the party. You can't compartmentalize so easily.

Quote:
2) You can always bring BLM army and rotate them to dump MP on HNM, which means MP is no longer an issue. A single SCH may be able to outnuke a BLM in long fight but a large group of BLM will always outperform same number of SCH.


This is an entirely different point than arguing that one SCH has no role in any party. You cannot change the issue to try and make your point.


Quote:
3) Stun and elemental seal sleep are unique JA/spells which can potentially prevent a full wipe. Agas is irreplaceable in certain HNM fight.
Any sane LS leader is not going to replace their BLMs with SCHs.


Klimaform plus SCH's innately higher enfeebling skill makes it just as skilled a sleeper. While a SCH canno't Stun or Aga nukes, a BLM cannot Graviga or Bindaga. In both cases, the use is situational.

Quote:
There is no significant advantage to include a SCH in BLM party, the difference between 6xBLM and 5xBLM + SCH is likely to be very small depending on BLM's gear and merit, that's assuming SCH burns charges to put AOE Klimaform and storm spell on the rest of the party members which limits SCH's performance as a nuker by reducing the number of Embllience used.


/sigh The difference can be small or it can be quite a deal larger. It will depend on the party. This argument doesn't really help your case. And again, I don't need Ebullience to nuke well. And if you want to be fair, any added damage that each of those BLMs add due to being able to max in Max damage gear (due to Klimaform) and extra damage from Helix + Obi should be added to the SCH's damage contribution. I'm not saying that the addition of a SCH is gamebreaking. They are, however, beneficial and this is the heart of the matter. You claim that a SCH has absolutely no place in that party. You are wrong. You even concede the point. If you admit, that even if only by a small amount, that the 5xBLM + SCH party performs better, then that SCH has earned her spot.

Quote:
Any BLM can tell you nuke resistance is the most important limiting factor in HNM fight. Stormsurge sounds nice in theory but has limited use in practice since it only adds INT if Hailstorm is cast and Klimaform only enhances the magic accuracy of single element, Wyrms such as Tiamat and Faf/Nid resist ice based spells. COR is a better support job in BLM party thanks to Warlock's roll + Wizard's roll (when wyrm is in the sky) and Evoker roll + Healer's roll (Wyrm on the ground), which provide greater MAB + magic accuracy and refresh + hMP.


The benefits of Klimaform and the benefits of Stormsurge are completely irrespective of each other. Regardless of the element, the BLMS are going to resist less. The benefit is not ice exclusive. Stormsurge just makes the latter even better. You can have the COR and the SCH in the same party. The trade off is the same as above.

Quote:
The bottomline is - no1 is going to feel compromised not having a SCH in tank party or BLM party. Remove RDM, WHM or BRD from the tank party and your tanks are no longer functioning under optimal conditions. It's just how the game is designed, unless SCH gain access to haste/refresh/more potent barspells/slow spells that stack with elegy and RDM's Slow II, it will always be a 2nd line job only used when there is no better job around. I think this is a very important message to players who are currently leveling the job hoping it will get them into HNMLS. There are some open minded LS leaders who will invite SCH to do endgame events but most of them will go for other jobs and it's justified since SCH does not really add anything unique and highly beneficial to make a huge impact on the gameplay.


Again, HNM does not equal all endgame activities. You need to decide what it is you are really trying to argue here.

Arguing "optimal conditions" is not the same thing as "a SCH cannot function in this event." And we've already given you examples of how/when having a SCH's unique abilities are beneficial. I see shouts asking for SCH along with all the other mages. When I answer shouts (I play duing JP primetime mostly) for Dynamis, Nyzuls or NM fights, I get asked to come WHM, RDM, and SCH. The term endgame is far too broad for you to support the claim that a SCH is useless in all aspects of it.

Alright, back to work :p
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Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#64 Aug 07 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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479 posts
knightfell wrote:
Not looking to stroke the flames any..

As a purely Dark Arts SCH and a BLM, going off the top of my head, my BLM carries more gear then my SCH does.

I freely admit this is helped by not having to haul around Healing potencey and -emn gear, as your average player would likely need, assuming he/she uses SCH in such roles.

Doing a quick count I seem to carry around 50 pieces of gear for SCH (Disclaimer: My SCH nuking sets are far from complete) BLM iirc is around 70.

Stoneskin, Max Damage , Elemental (Resists), and Enfeeb are used on both jobs.

-HP and Enfeeb are probably what push BLM over the edge, I never did get around to minimizing my -HP gear so that doesn't help.

Edit: Forgot Dark and Idle sets, meh.

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 2:11pm by knightfell


No flame :) Well a SCH would have all that, plus a Helix set for purely Dark Arts. If you use Light Arts, you'd have Healing, Enhancing, Idle and possibly HP+ as well. I think it's pretty close for both jobs. Why is it relevant? (I honestly don't remember how that issue came up lol)
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Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#65 Aug 07 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
**some notes before hand**
1) i'm a lvl 75 whm 61 sch.
2) my blm lvl 22 so anything i say about blm is my own speculation and from seeing others.
3) please dont take anything i say personal. i love my sch but i love my whm more :P

Ok. From my experience of playing sch, it is an excellent buffer and long term mage. i say long term mage for one reason. they have Light arts and Dark arts enabling them to take the place of a blm or whm or even a rdm in some cases. i dont see a sch ever becoming a blm or whm replacement. they can last longer then a whm or blm but dont have the mastery of the white and black magic. Just like blm has there AM and AMII whm has Regen 3 and R3 and cure 5. sch on the other hand has there helixe and weather buffing spells. there strategems also help them one time a spell over a whm or blm. from personal experiance no sch has yet to out heal me on a single cure. and imo they cant because of Cure 5. but thats a difrent story for another time lol. Sch also have there nifty Sublimition witch helps them more then blm conserve mp or whm...... well thats about it >^.^<
#66Ahlah, Posted: Aug 08 2009 at 1:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well ppl will always defend the job they like and choose to ignore simple logic. Do you agree that:
#67 Aug 08 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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479 posts
Ahlah wrote:
Well ppl will always defend the job they like and choose to ignore simple logic. Do you agree that:
1) SCH as a hybrid job, can fit in various roles reasonably well but does not excel in any particular area, i.e. BLM better nuker, WHM better healer, COR better mage support etc
2) To be a true versatile job, SCH needs to be able to switch form freely but the charge system prevents it
3) SCH has zero unique and highly sought after spells or job abilities such as refresh/haste/ShellraV/Cure V, aoe debuffs/helix/storm/klimaform are highly situational and do not provide any significant advantage over the current available alternatives


These facts only lead to one conclusion - in order to even come close to other jobs in their corresponding field, SCH is always stuck playing a mediocre healer or nuker or surpport role. Any player who try to use versality as a selling point does not understand the limitation of the job. MP effiency is a moot point, there are sufficent gear/merit/spells to support any party setup in this game, WHM can even gain access to 2/3 of SCH's MP conserving tricks by simply using SCH SJ.


Do you know how many times you've contradicted yourself in your posts? I would love for you to explain to all of us how SCH is mediocre in nuking or healing? Just because it might not do as well as BLM and WHM in the respective departments does not mean that their ability is mediocre. And further, you've already conceded that there situations where SCH IS a better nuker than BLM. So how can it be both mediocre at nuking, and yet capable of rivaling BLM in that very same department?

The charge system does not prevent me from switching freely between roles. You seem to be under the impression that a SCH needs to Bliz IV than 2 seconds later Accession Stonara then Manifestation Griviga then Rapture Cure IV. If you had ever played SCH yourself, you would know that is not the case. The charge system is not nearly as big a hindrance as you paint it out to be. You would have to play the job to know that. It's especially true in a place like Salvage.

And I will say it again, just because you want to ignore the situations where SCH's unique abilities like AOE debuffs or Klimaform are beneficial does not mean that they are not. You've completely ignored the usefulness of the former in Ein and totally underestimated the benefit that the latter provides to a BLM party as it supplements the SCH's own damage.

You cannot use MP efficiency as a pro for one job (you used it as an argument for SCH vs WHM in salvage) and then try to disregard it in sweeping terms for SCH in general. And, fyi, you have also nullified another of your arguments for why WHM is better in Salvage than SCH - lack off cells needed. If you're going to argue that WHM can sub SCH to become just efficient, then now you have both jobs needed the same amount of cells. And for the record, I'm not arguing SCH > WHM in Salvage. I don't need to. All I have to do is show you that a group can function just as well and achieve its goals. I have. It's also funny to me that you criticize me for not analyzing the job vis-a-vis other jobs, when you completely refuse to look at how well SCH interacts with the jobs in its party. My Salvage leader goes RDM to pretty much every Salvage. When I or someone else goes WHM, he admits its a little easier. Just like its easier (from a safety stand point) when one of the other members comes as MNK instead of SAM. He still prefers me to come SCH most situations. Why? Because I still alleviate his healing load with all of those spells you deem worthless plus add more raw damage. That earns my spot.


Quote:
I am not saying SCH is worthless.


Yes, you are. If you are claiming that people should not level SCH and expect to be invited to any endgame activities, then you are labeling the job as worthless for a majority of content in the game. Do not try to backtrack now and save face.

Quote:
You are just dodging the key question - why should ppl invite SCH if there are other jobs available which will give you better results?
Edited, Aug 8th 2009 9:52am by Ahlah



Key question? You aren't able to comprehend the answer. I and others have given it to you more than once. I've already showed you why adding a SCH instead of another BLM to that BLMx4 COR party could be beneficial. I've already told you why my LS prefers me to go SCH over WHM to most Salvage runs. We kill faster. I've already told you that SCH is great in Ein. You've ignored it. I've already told you that SCH is an incredibly competent nuker. Because you don't play the job and don't understand it you cannot understand how all of the different aspects of the job make it desirable. I really don't know what more to say to you if you can't understand why having one job that can do multiple things VERY well is a bonus.

You made this claim: SCH has no place endgame. That is your statement. You have to own it. Endgame is an extremely broad term. You have yet to prove that SCH cannot work in these multitude of events. I have. All you've shown is, I prefer this job over SCH because it is easier for me and my group. That's great for you. But guess what? There are people who play this game differently, but with just as much success as you. My disapproval of your posts have nothing to do with ignoring logic or b/c I simply like the job. I am trying to get you to see reality. I do many endgame activities. I see SCHs (other than myself) at ALL of them. That is the reality. You have made a claim that you cannot possibly support b/c the reality of the game contradicts it. If even only one of the claim that I made above is right, your argument still fails. Why? Because it proves that there is a place for the job at end game.

So please do not come into this forum and tell aspiring SCHs that if they level the job, they will have no place at endgame.
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Tarutaru!
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BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#68Ahlah, Posted: Aug 08 2009 at 7:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) BLMs will always outperform SCH in virtually any endgame event as primary nukers, just because Kaeko mention a single SCH can potentially outnuke a BLM under specific condition doesn't mean SCH will outshine BLM in endgame events, learn how to digest the information and stop jumping into conclusion. Experienced HNMLS should be able to defeat any HNM before the fight lasts long enough for SCH to outpeform BLM.
#69 Aug 08 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Y'know, I was going to stay out of this, but you've made multiple posts operating under false assumptions, so here goes.

Quote:
BLMs will always outperform SCH in virtually any endgame event as primary nukers, just because Kaeko mention a single SCH can potentially outnuke a BLM under specific condition doesn't mean SCH will outshine BLM in endgame events, learn how to digest the information and stop jumping into conclusion.Experienced HNMLS should be able to defeat any HNM before the fight lasts long enough for SCH to outpeform BLM.


This is patently false. If you had been reading the thread instead of just blindly flailing about in your posts with your half-complete knowledge of our job, you would already know this.

In longer fights, Parsimony spam gives as a huge DMG:MP ratio. I notice how you mentioned BLM being superior in Einherjar a few posts back; this is simply not true. Higher DMG:MP ratio over 30 minutes = more damage, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. You are wrong.

In shorter fights, Alacrity spam gives us a huge DMG:Time ratio, which again, BLM is very hard-pressed to match. I tried this out on a Linkshell Genbu once; I dealt over 4,000 DMG over the short duration of the fight; the BLMs dealt between 2,000-3,000 each. You really need to open your eyes.

Nobody's been just jumping to conclusions; we play the job on a daily basis, test out new ideas, and come up with new strategies on how to most effectively use our abilities to their fullest. You are the one reading things on the internet and jumping to conclusions, sir.

Oh, and by the way, experienced HNMLS don't operate anything like you say. A good LS would take all those BLMs you want to switch out of an alliance, and send them to a different HNM. Throwing armies at 99% of the mobs in this game is nothing short of fail. Learning how to lowman these mobs effectively so that you can spread out your resources, and therefore accomplish more in a given timeframe, is the true mark of an experienced endgame Linkshell. SCH is an extremely useful job for these kinds of groups, because it can fill several roles in any given party/alliance. That perfect setup you keep harping about is pretty difficult to find at 3 in the morning when Tiamat pops.

Quote:
You keep bragging about how versatile the job can be, but you totally ignore the fact that the job is crippled by the stupid charge system and light/dark art recast. For example, everytime you switch from dark to light art to cast status cure you practically lose startegem which is sorely needed for SCH to keep up with BLM. Another good example is Dispel, Addendum: Black is a horrble concept and literraly stop SCH from functioning as a full time healer and dispeller. SCH's versatility comes with the price of strategems which are required for SCH to keep up with other job.


Again, you just don't understand how this job works. SCH is an extremely versatile job, but it cannot do everything it's capable of at once. If this were true, it would be horribly overpowered. The Arts/Strategem recasts are in place to force us to choose one role, of which there are many we can play, and stick with it. You say we are crippled by the charge system; it is merely a constraint to force us to use them intelligently. We do not lie when we say SCH is a very difficult job to play properly; it requires a lot of forethought. I understand how this can be difficult to understand for one who has not played the job, but please try a little harder.

As for your example about switching Arts to status cure.. if I'm in a situation where I absolutely need to be throwing status cures, I'm already going to be in Addendum: White. If it's just one random ailment out of nowhere, that's what Enlightenment's for. Not doing so would just be completely ineffective and therefore would not happen. As for Dispel... I'm not sure if you've noticed, but 99% of the time SCH uses /RDM. Dispel is /RDM32. Keep it coming.

Quote:
Seriously did you just admit that bring a WHM instead of a SCH will make the run easier and safer? Also how the hell will a SCH make RDM's job easier? If you are referring to phalanxga and stoneskinga most salvage groups only spend 10mins on first floor that's like 10% of the whoe run. SCH's lack of curaga spells, gimped Sublimation, no access to haste means RDM will have to work harder (hasting both tanks, refreshing both RDM and SCH) On top of that SCH is taking up all the important cells which should have been given to other members to speed up the whole run, e.g. JA and SJ cell to tanks to unlock WS and Utsusemi when they unlock magic. I suggest you learn how to play the job if you still try to heal and nuke at the same time. May I suggest a better way to help your salvage group? Next time go WHM, put Auspice on your party and haste every single melee in your party, you will make more contribution by enhancing melee performance than dealing laughable "raw damage".


As usual, your posts are vague and full of misinformation until you start talking about Salvage. You make excellent points as to why SCH is a difficult job to accomodate for a Salvage group, then turn around and make yourself look ridiculous when you try to vilify the job as a whole. Why don't you just admit that your unreasonable bias against SCH in endgame in general is a direct result of your Salvage experiences and call it a day?
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#70 Aug 08 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,976 posts
Quote:

I know he hates his LJ getting involved in these disputes, so please, actually click the link this time and read it so I don't have to again. All the numbers you could want can be found here:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/

You are doing your SCH a great disservice if you haven't yet read it.
I must've missed that link before, my humblest apologies.

I ran through Kanicans numbers again and again, and they're pretty faultless, though it pains me to admit it. I would stress, however, that even Kanican admits that BLM still outshines any SCH when it comes to more conservative nuking strategies (ie, not blowing your MP pool in the fastest possible time) because they can hit much harder per nuke.

With that, however, I concede the round and match. His points are very hard to dispute and he even makes allowances for the recasts on strategems. Thanks for the link.
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#71 Aug 08 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,563 posts
I have no interest in getting into the debate/arguments that are already taking place; other posters have already made those finer details come out, and have pretty much exhausted all directions that the debates could be taken. However, I will post my personal experiences and thoughts, which for the most part back up what Lyltia has already covered.


I've been a blm since the day the game came out for USA; it was the first job i began leveling, and is my true most-loved job in the game. My relationship with my scholar is that of a hate/love. I hate that it is so much better than blm in nearly every way (especially considering that Scholar is merely a hybrid job of blm), but it is what it is. And I love it because it is so damn good. As someone else said, if you can't beat em, join em, and that's what I did.

I consider myself an extremely well geared scholar and blm. There isn't much left for these jobs that I don't have. Keepin this in mind, and keeping the comparison of a "pimp blm compared to an equally pimp sch" in mind, I will say that scholar wins hands down in the vast majority of situations. As much as I absolutely love my blm, it hardly sees the light of day anymore. My scholar is used for 90% of the events I partake in. Every once in a while I get to bring my blm to fights like Love simply because the NEED for -gas or stuns > what my scholar can bring to the table for those fights. However, in all other situations that are not those "needy/specific circumstances" my scholar simply outperforms.

I hope that many ppl are paying close attenton to what Lyltia has been posting, because he/she is absolutely right in the vast majority of what they're posting; take notes. And as much as I don't get along with Bangyu, he has been right in the majority of his posts as well.

Sure a scholar will not out dmg an equally geared blm without ebullience spell for spell, but lets be honest with eachother, when will that ever matter other than epeen contests? I would even venture to say, that blms magic bursting Burst II's coupled with other nonbursted nukes, would STILL not outdamage an equally geared scholar taking similar actions. Their lower spike dmg will keep them being able to do more dmg over time than a blm; their mp efficiency will keep them nuking longer than a blm, increasing that damage over time, and their nukes will go just as unresisted as said blms. As much as I hate to admit to it, because I certainly love my blm more than sch, Scholar just wins hands down in those respects.

I will add this addendum to the sch/blm debate though.. Newcomers to scholar will have much harder time getting their scholars properly geared to be able to make this happen much more so than doing it with blm. So in comparison of how easy it is for blm to reach this "tier" so to speak in comparison to scholar, blm may be the better choice for the ppl that are not hardcore into endgame, or do not have as much time to sink into their character. So in that sense, I would urge them to lean more to the blm side. If they do have the time to sink, and the endgame opportunities to pimp their scholars out to the max, though, then I assure you, they will certainly be the more optimum nukers to bring to the table.



Edits: Grammar fixes


Edited, Aug 8th 2009 4:56pm by xXxNaobixXx
____________________________
Naobi
Blm: 75, Sch: 75, Rdm: 75, Nin: 75, Smn: 72

Daggz:
Blm 75, Thf 75, War 74

Crafts
Bonecraft: 100 +6, Cooking: 60, Leathercraft: 60, Alchemy: 60, Clothcraft 55, Goldsmithing: 49

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Bastok: Rank 10, Windurst: Rank 10, Sandoria: Rank 10
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CoP: Complete
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Server: Bahamut
#72 Aug 08 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
144 posts
Regarding the Livejournal, the poster is Kaeko, Kanican is the name of the linkshell that he was a part of for a very long time. The information that he has disseminated is invaluable to any community that he has contributed to and frankly I don't think any of it is appreciated enough.

Bang, do us all a favor and shut up. Forever. Your practice of parroting everything Kaeko worked long and hard to produce is obnoxious and bordering on pedestrian. Further, all of these so-called experiences you've had, when exactly have you been having them? Are you dreaming these things up? Everything you posted in the first 5 months of the year is blatant embellishment at least, forgery at worst.

You got kicked from your linkshell for not attending events and being a general nuisance, without attendance how can you obtain the experience required to make the statements you do? You claim to -know- things but it's clear that your "knowledge" is based on postulation and vicarious learning. Your general sneering demeanor and pedantic form is such that no reasonable person would want to associate with you, that's why so many of your posts go ignored.

Why do people want you on Scholar over your -insert job-? Because they know that you're least likely to get someone killed and cause a failure in that position. The only person that has to die to rectify the situation if you screw up, is you.

Please. Shut up.
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#73 Aug 08 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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109 posts
Unbeknownced to me... i'm comenting yet again in this thread, much like I'm sure most of you are saying to yourselves.

The very first post made to the OP was..

ElVendi wrote:
So imo the Sch vs Blm idea is silly.
I still stand by this comment, as do a few of you.

Wow.. The topics in this thread have bounced around so much. From dd potential, mp, Macc, MAB, healing.., buffing.., long fights/short fights, HNM's, HNM's arent the only endgame!, Ahlah being a biased goof~, Bangyu showing us ALL how big his B@lls are >.>(no insult intended, i agree with quite a bit from what you say).


Comparing a hybrid job to a specific job is trully unfair for the specific job, hence me saying it was "silly". Hybrid job will always come out ontop on versatility. As for DD, their are sooo many countless ways to kill things and strategies that are needed, so it is ignorant of ANYONE to claim dominance in all specific fields, THE ALL SUPREME JOB!...

I dont currently do HNM's regularly(so I guess that means I dont do endgame.. XD). But I do Ein, nyzul isle, assaults, dyna, ZNM, limbus, sky, and I come ahead on a lot of things, and I trail behind on things(all in comparrison to blm).
I am not naive enough to believe that Sch always outperforms other jobs, thats this game for you.. the dependance of other jobs to help fill roles, or be more efficient in certain situations. Its like /subs.. they almost all have their moments when their more efficient.



Just a couple things...


Dyna, limbus, Ein, or any large event with massive multiple mobs. IF you are the only one sleeping, your ls has more problems than just whether you came sch or blm. PERIOD! So with that said it would be safe to assume you have a pleathera of sleepers(or one would hope!), so that means whether your blm, rdm/blm, sch/rdm, and even whm/blm(I rather main healers not partake in sleeping, but sometimes its unnavoidable.) sleeps should realistically not be an issue. But add ontop of that bindga and graviga, Sch furthers the safety of all sleepers with these spells/ja. Ya.. rdm and /rdm can single target, but seriously, time should be better spent elsewhere so it wouldnt be a good argument to bring up.

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Oh, and by the way, experienced HNMLS don't operate anything like you say. A good LS would take all those BLMs you want to switch out of an alliance, and send them to a different HNM. Throwing armies at 99% of the mobs in this game is nothing short of fail. Learning how to lowman these mobs effectively so that you can spread out your resources, and therefore accomplish more in a given timeframe, is the true mark of an experienced endgame Linkshell. SCH is an extremely useful job for these kinds of groups, because it can fill several roles in any given party/alliance. That perfect setup you keep harping about is pretty difficult to find at 3 in the morning when Tiamat pops.
Lyltia was talking to Ahlah

Gawd yes! ^^ F'n Preech it! Tired of ppl making up these unrealistic scenarios as though they could ALWAYS happen, so that makes it the way it should be. While were at it, when ever we do any HNM, sky/sea God, ZNM, w/e we should bring only Sam's, Mnk's, War's(300% tp), drk(kraken club onry!!), and blm's. So with those 4 jobs, we just get 30 of each! Have them all 2hr and rotate out for the next job with 2hr. Betcha we could F up everything. who needs other jobs?...



I wont claim to know how good or bad anyone plays a specific job. Cuz quite honestly, the majority of players/ppl likely believe they are the sh*t~ Including myself /grin..

But those coming out and bashing a job in its entirety likely falls in at least one of a few categories,

1. Completely and utterly biassed due to a prefered job.
2. Lack the skill to play the job appropriately.
3. Lack the gear to excell beyond the mediocre player.
(I'm sure theirs a few more categories but these are the ones that come to mind)

Just so happens, I believe Ahlah falls in all 3 categories.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 12:00am by ElVendi
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Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#74 Aug 08 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,949 posts
SCH vs BLM

Who wins?

RDM


lol. jk

The only thing the two jobs share is 1-4 tier spells, drain and aspir. Besides that. There is really no reason to compare or contrast the two.

I will say with the whining ppl did about sch kicking ass with erasega and whm's crying about it, blm is due for a update. I say aspir II. Just cause...i think it would be kinda funny.
____________________________
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Elvaan

-75RDM-75COR-75SMN-75SCH-37BLM-37WHM-37SAM-37RNG-
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"I still /blm in the mire" LOL
#75 Aug 09 2009 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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233 posts
Quote:

I've been a blm since the day the game came out for USA; it was the first job i began leveling, and is my true most-loved job in the game. My relationship with my scholar is that of a hate/love. I hate that it is so much better than blm in nearly every way (especially considering that Scholar is merely a hybrid job of blm), but it is what it is. And I love it because it is so damn good.


This is pretty much how things have gone for me. Started at NA pc launch, I remember talking in various forums before the game hit our shores about which jobs would be in it and how they would work.

And throughout such chats I knew I would be a BLM, I love me pointy hat you see <3.

It burns the hell out of me to see a job that I have invested so much blood sweat and tears into be trumped (In the things I use BLM for) by a newcomer to the job, a hybrid at that, but such is the way of things.

As someone said before it's not fair to SCH's out there that BLM's scream for their blood every time these silly debate threads pop up. If I had my way not only would BLM see an adjustment (And no I'm not talking about Retracega) SCH would get some tweaks as well, such as:

Changes to the Helix formula, and being added to more nuking gear (Hi Morrigians!).

Hell SMN would get a pony along with job fixes, as would BST and PUP. One hander's would also see some love.

That would be just the start.

But sadly the Dev team we know and love(?) would rather ignore problems unless their inboxes are deluged with complaints and stick their heads in the sand.

But I digress...

Alot of the beef BLM's have is that whenever we petition for any sort of job changes, we get all sorts coming out sh*tting all over us, saying that we want to go back to era where BLM was a bandwagon job because it was percived to be the "best", or the second most common argument, since we get a slot in endgame, everything is hunky-dory.

I've come to accept that we will never have a place in a regular party, hell I solo'd most of my merits so it no longer matters to me, all (I) want is to see the job that I love be at the top of it's specialty, which is blowing stuff up.

I know deep down we (BLM) will never see that day, however I am truly glad WHM received the update that it did, and I hope that other jobs that languish, praying for relief will get there due, just because I can't get a shiney doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to.

Sorry for the rant.

BLM 75 SCH 75



Edited, Aug 9th 2009 5:52am by knightfell
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#76 Aug 09 2009 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
Quote:
Quote:
Seriously did you just admit that bring a WHM instead of a SCH will make the run easier and safer? Also how the hell will a SCH make RDM's job easier? If you are referring to phalanxga and stoneskinga most salvage groups only spend 10mins on first floor that's like 10% of the whoe run. SCH's lack of curaga spells, gimped Sublimation, no access to haste means RDM will have to work harder (hasting both tanks, refreshing both RDM and SCH) On top of that SCH is taking up all the important cells which should have been given to other members to speed up the whole run, e.g. JA and SJ cell to tanks to unlock WS and Utsusemi when they unlock magic. I suggest you learn how to play the job if you still try to heal and nuke at the same time. May I suggest a better way to help your salvage group? Next time go WHM, put Auspice on your party and haste every single melee in your party, you will make more contribution by enhancing melee performance than dealing laughable "raw damage".


I am not this RDM but I am in the group and knows him very well, what he means by making it easier is that he can relax more, he doesn't need any help to cure in Salvage. We have done all zones on 6 with the setup of rdm, brd, mnk, mnk, thf,drg. We have sweeped Arra including floor 6 nms and boss with 5, missing the drg as he accidently got dced when entering, we also did kill all nms + boss in SSR with rdm, brd, mnk, thf, sam, drg. So why would we need a whm, when our rdm and brd can take care of any healing whatsoever in Salvage, only bad thing would be unnerfed LBC, there a WHM is cool. I am not claiming that what we are doing is good or so because many groups can, we have no spectacular gear, but if we can do whatever we want in Salvage I see no point in WHM. You should just get better mages, that I can tell you, our mages are really really good.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 6:16am by Slogra
#77Ahlah, Posted: Aug 09 2009 at 7:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol quite the other way round, you are the one who don't have sufficient endgame experience to understand the mechanism of endgame battle and thus failed to understand my points regarding the roles of SCH and BLM in endgame battles. At least you have done enough salvage runs to learn SCH is a weak job in salvage.
#78Banggugyangu, Posted: Aug 09 2009 at 7:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you want to attempt an insult against someone, et your facts straight please. I left a linkshell due to a personal disagreement with someone who had been a long-time friend. In his own way, he asked me to stay.
#79 Aug 09 2009 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
Do you actually understand the implication of DMG:MP ratio? Bio III has much better damage:MP ratio than any other elemental nuke and that doesn't make RDM the best nukers. Also for the record I am not the one who commented on BLM's performance in Einherjar. Seems to me that the BLMs in your LS either have subpar gear/merit or they are holding back to avoid pulling hate off tank. It will probably only take a well geared BLM to cast 4-5 unresisted nukes to hit 2-3k mark on Genbu. Perhaps you should check it before you jump into conclusion.


Concerning the Genbu scenario, you're right, that's about how long the fight lasted. However, you're crossing your wires here; that's an example of using Alacrity to maximize DMG:Time, not DMG:MP. I clearly stated this here:

Quote:
In shorter fights, Alacrity spam gives us a huge DMG:Time ratio, which again, BLM is very hard-pressed to match. I tried this out on a Linkshell Genbu once; I dealt over 4,000 DMG over the short duration of the fight; the BLMs dealt between 2,000-3,000 each.


Moving on..

Quote:
Ppl really need to learn how to digest information and stop following blindly. Kaeko's chart only proves that SCH can nuke more for less MP. If you get both SCH and BLM to cast 2 thunder IV + 2 Blizzard IV in one minute, BLM still comes out ahead in term of total damage albeit at the cost of higher MP consumption. in other word, as long as BLM manage to replenish their MP pool regularly (think Dynamis/Limbus) and dump MP faster than SCH (AM II, aga when the situation calls for it) they will always do more damage over time.


Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. If I'm in a situation such as this where DMG:MP is much less important, I'm using Alacrity to increase my DMG:Time, not Parsimony. This is the overarching point that you keep missing; SCH can adjust their Strategem usage to each of these situations. Also, I highly doubt a BLM can dump their MP pool faster than I can spamming Alacrity.

Quote:
Another good example is Great Wyrm fight. BLMs typically only nuke when Wyrm is in the Sky since Wyrms are more dangerous on the ground (Spike Flail) and everytime they touch down it resets TP (Touchdown is a TP move). When Wyrms lift off the ground, nukers should aim to unload their MP within the 2 mins interval, BLM will be able to accomplish this much easier than SCH since they have access to more variety of spells of the same element effective against wryms whereas SCH is limited by recast time. After Touchdown, BLMs get to rest for MP for 2 mins, which means SCH do not have any advantage over BLM in term of MP efficiency.


How is this a good example? Even well-geared BLMs have resist issues on wyrms like Tiamat; I'm going to be giving the BLM party Storm+Klimaform long before I start trying to outnuke them. Still, this doesn't jive well though; you say BLMs can empty their MP pool faster, but a SCH with Storm+Klimaform using Alacrity on their t4 and t3 spells and spamming all four tiers will do just fine in the two minutes allotted.

Quote:
Do you even known how an experienced HNMLS operate? Experienced LS can defeat any land king even with a small group of members. They are more concerned about claiming HNM. Unless Aspid/Faf/Nid/King Behamoth all spawn at the same time I don't see why a LS should divide forces when they can gather all their members to increase the chance of claiming HNM. Most experienced HNMLS only use magic DDs for a handful of evemts. Unless your LS is fighting Tiamat and Ouryu at the same time I don't see any reason why they shouldn't put all BLM in the same fight to speed up the kill and prevent unnecessary wipe.


I'm sorry, I was assuming that that alliance of BLMs maybe had other jobs leveled, and perhaps your LS fought real HNMs like Cerb/Ixion/SW, instead of just wasting their time on lolKings. My mistake.

Quote:
In the case of low man Tiamat, it's silly to replace a BLM with a SCH. The benefit of Stun and ES sleep completely outweight the marginal (if any) benefit of better damage:MP cost. If you read the above explanation you should know SCH does not have any significant advantage over BLM esp in Wyrm fight in term of damage output due to how the fight is normally handled.


See above. SCH's role in this fight is maximizing BLM damage with Storm+Klimaform. If you can't come up with a better retort than this, I don't see the point in continuing this debate.

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lol quite the other way round, you are the one who don't have sufficient endgame experience to understand the mechanism of endgame battle and thus failed to understand my points regarding the roles of SCH and BLM in endgame battles.


So now you've graduated from making things up about SCH to making things up about me. You have no basis for this statement, and as such, it reflects the credibility present in all your arguments.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#80Ahlah, Posted: Aug 09 2009 at 9:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am curious about your endgame experience. Perhaps you will like to share with us because your post clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding of endgame mechanism.
#81 Aug 09 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
You are making claim based on your own assumption and have no solid evidence to support it. How do you know by burning all your charges on Alacrity to squeeze in as many nukes as possible within the 2 mins interval will definitely help SCH outdamage BLM? (esp. when the whole arguement about SCH > BLM is built upon the use of Parsimony) Do you take into consideration charge cooldown, T4 spell recast, the duration of wyrm fight and SCH resist rate? How do you know Storm + Klimaform grant magic accuracy significant enough for SCH to take up a spot in BLM party? Judging from your post I suspect you have probably never even attempted Wyrm fight.


Whoa there, I'm not sure when you decided we were comparing SCH vs. BLM on the sole basis of a Wyrm fight, but I never made many of these claims in that context. This is the only claim I made about SCH's performance in a Wyrm fight; Tiamat to be exact:

Quote:
Even well-geared BLMs have resist issues on wyrms like Tiamat; I'm going to be giving the BLM party Storm+Klimaform long before I start trying to outnuke them.


Take notice of the bolded portion. I'm still nuking to an extent during the flight window, but my main focus is reducing the resists and increasing the damage of the BLMs. Notice how I include BLMs in the equation. All of my Strategems are being used to this end; as such, the BLMs will clearly win in all respects as I have taken on a support role as opposed to a DD role.

The overall point that I've been trying to make in this thread is not that SCH is a better nuker than BLM; the point is that by using Strategems effectively, SCH can fill any number of highly useful roles in a party/alliance. Also, situations where SCH is able to trump BLM in their DD role are not based solely on Parsimony. Honestly, I've said pretty much all there is to say on the subject, much of it several times. I don't know how else to try and explain this to you, but it's getting tiresome.

Quote:
Do you really understand the concept of lowman fight? The most important aspect of lowman is survival, low man battle has less room for mistake and is expected to take longer. Plus there are already fewer BLMs in the party to benefit from your Storm + Klimaform (unless your low man means 5+ BLMs). Emergency Sleep II can potentially prevent a full wipe - imagine watching your small group wipe to Tiamat because mage runs out of MP to cure tank when a BLM can save the group with emergency ES + Sleep II. Trading safety for some marginal improvement in DD capacity is a silly move and will more likely lead to failure.


You also seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm saying we should replace all BLMs with SCHs because they're just better. This is false. Stun and Elemental Seal are both very useful abilities that are integral to many strategies. The point of this debate is not to abolish BLM; it is merely to illustrate how a SCH can give 100% effort and contribute to any given situation. As for your lowman Tiamat example, allow me to counter your points:

-If there isn't a full BLM party present, you can conserve charges by single casting Storms instead of using Accession, allowing you to nuke more than you would otherwise to pick up some of the DD slack. Sure, it's not on par with a BLM since you're still using charges on buffs, but anything to speed up a slow kill, right?

-ES+Sleep2? Great. That's the BLM's job. Again, nobody wants to get rid of BLMs and replace them with SCHs.

-As for overall safety? Tiamat's a pussycat on the ground if you don't feed him TP, and a proper resist build makes his fire attacks rather lol as well. If your tank can't handle that with healer+BRD alone, you really need to get a better tank to be lowmanning Tiamat with.

Quote:
I am curious about your endgame experience. Perhaps you will like to share with us because your post clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding of endgame mechanism.


That's your opinion. I'm not about to be baited into a pissing contest over it; but, judging by your sig, I suppose your best bet to 'win' the debate at this point is to try and parade your completed Salvage gear in an attempt to gain credibility, so I understand.

EDIT: Missed this part:

Quote:
If you LS prefer camping Cerb/Ixon/SW over Faf/Nid/King Behamoth something is seriously wrong. May be you should enlighten me why your LS will give up E.body, H. cap, Dalmatica, Defending ring for some money drops?


D.Ring does not exist. The rest can be found in Einherjar. I'd rather get paid from HNM then being disappointed the 99/100 times KB doesn't drop D.Ring. I suppose that's why I don't bother with Kings in the first place, but to each their own.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 2:13pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#82 Aug 09 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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479 posts
Ahlah,

There really isn't any point trying to discuss this with you. You've ignored every point that we have tried to make to you. And more importantly, you fail to understand 1) how SCH actually works as a job and 2) how it interacts with other jobs. Without this basic understanding, we can't have a discussion with you.

However, I will respond to one last thing b/c I hate it when people take my words and twist them to try and make a point.

Quote:
Seriously did you just admit that bring a WHM instead of a SCH will make the run easier and safer? Also how the hell will a SCH make RDM's job easier? If you are referring to phalanxga and stoneskinga most salvage groups only spend 10mins on first floor that's like 10% of the whoe run. SCH's lack of curaga spells, gimped Sublimation, no access to haste means RDM will have to work harder (hasting both tanks, refreshing both RDM and SCH) On top of that SCH is taking up all the important cells which should have been given to other members to speed up the whole run, e.g. JA and SJ cell to tanks to unlock WS and Utsusemi when they unlock magic. I suggest you learn how to play the job if you still try to heal and nuke at the same time. May I suggest a better way to help your salvage group? Next time go WHM, put Auspice on your party and haste every single melee in your party, you will make more contribution by enhancing melee performance than dealing laughable "raw damage".


Of course having a WHM make a run safer. How could it not?! You have the best healer, better Pro/Shell and Raise III. Just about anything you do in this game will be made safer by adding a WHM. This reality, however, does not contradict our view that my going SCH still makes the RDM's job easier AND contributes to faster runs.

As Slogra explained to you (Hey Sloggy!), the RDM in our group does all of the healing usually. He's healed a group of 4 melees and brd/whm many times. (Yes, he's that good). I could go WHM and take over the main healing, clearly making his healing/hasting load easier. I could also go as SCH and still ease that load, by not as much, but also add damage and better crowd control. That combination works better for our group. And as someone who actually plays the job, charges/recast DOES NOT cripple me. I never have the need to jump back and forth as much as you think a SCH would need to. This again goes back to you lack of knowledge about how the job actually plays. If we're sticking with our salvage example, on some floors I'm more focused on helping heal. I camp in Light Arts. On other floors, I'm just about always nuking and Enlightenment is all I need if something happens. And then on bosses, after getting a set of buffs going, I usually switch to Dark Arts and camp there. I CAN still heal if the RDM and BRD need help healing. And if it is serious, I can switch over to Light Arts. I am not hampered. In reality, most of the time I'm just nuking on bosses and am limited only by hate. Yes my laughable raw damage can pull hate w/o extra curing enmity (more on that later). This is the versatility I'm talking about. Yes, we can switch on the fly but it's not often needed. What I am talking about is the kind of versatility that stretches 100 minutes. I do this for a while. Then I can do this. Or go back to that. Do you see?

And also, let me correct you on a few things. RDM does Haste the melees, but he only Refreshes me until I get HP/JA cells and only when I need it. Yes, even with just JA, my MP management is still great. Gimp sublimation? PLEASE stop talking about a job you know absolutely nothing about. Laughable raw damage? Do you even know how much a SCH nukes for? NO YOU DON'T. This is becoming so exasperating. You continue to talk about a job that you know absolutely nothing about. If our damage were so laughable, I seriously doubt BLM's would have been upset when we received Tier IV nukes.

A few more corrections . . . the group still has Curaga. The RDM always goes /WHM. Also, if stoneskin, phalanxga and regenga II are so useless after floor 1, then you would not be making such a big deal about curaga. They serve the same puprose but achieve the end result in different ways. Whether you are able to realize it or not, the above 3 buffs reduce the amount of healing needed. And also, we have our cells worked out fine. The tanks get JA and SJ before me. The RDM, BRD and I get magic first. It works fine for us. I've told you, I've done runs with the same setup as SCH and as WHM. Sometimes we prefer SCH. It works well for us. We still accomplish everything and always with time to spare after beating the boss. This may be hard for you to understand b/c you have such a poor knowledge of the job, but our runs are always fun, enjoyable and successful. That is all that matters.

As others have said, this whole idea of SCH v BLM is silly. I responded to this thread because your claim that SCH has no place endgame is even more ridiculous. You've been show countless examples (real world examples, not ideas of how you think the job performs) of how SCH functions in many of these events. There is nothing left to say other that.I'll leave Lyltia to deal with you. I don't have nearly as much patience.
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Sasaraixx
Tarutaru!
Gilgamesh
BLM 99/SMN 99/RDM 99/SCH 99/WHM 99/BLU 99/DNC 99/NIN 49/WAR 49/THF 46/BRD 41/COR 40/RNG 38/DRK 37/
#83 Aug 09 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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144 posts
I'm sorry Bang, you must have misinterpreted exactly where I was going with that post. It wasn't intended as a personal attack, it was a request for you to shut up, with information supporting why the request was valid and should be accepted.

It's easy to spin "facts" when you live in a delusional world like you do and frankly the only difference between being able to say "I left a linkshell" and "I got kicked" is whether you tossed your linkpearl faster than they could break it.

It isn't offering Kaeko's information to the broader populace that's so offensive, it's the -way- you do it. Too frequently, it seems as though in some subtle way you imply that it's something that you could have done on your own or that you've advanced beyond what he has done or what he could do. In the very post you replied to me with, you make a petty little comment about him being banned, it's these kinds of things that I'm talking about, why is that even necessary?

You want to make a claim in the vein of being able to nuke wyrms without Klimaform and suffering no resists? Go do it. Here's an example of a fact rather than a fantasy, you wear RSE for your HP build. lol.

Edit: On topic, the entire subject is absurd and shouldn't have been validated with this many responses. The two jobs are dramatically different, they share a few of the same capacities but this is just like discussing whether Red Mage or White Mage is a superior healer. Scholar can choose to cast powerful Elemental magic, effective Enfeebling magic or potent Enhancing magic. What Scholar can't do is all of those things at once.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 5:40pm by busakiller
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#84 Aug 10 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Default
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629 posts
busakiller wrote:
In the very post you replied to me with, you make a petty little comment about him being banned, it's these kinds of things that I'm talking about, why is that even necessary?

You want to make a claim in the vein of being able to nuke wyrms without Klimaform and suffering no resists? Go do it. Here's an example of a fact rather than a fantasy, you wear RSE for your HP build. lol.


I merely mentioned that in a comparison of his play style vs my own. The point I was trying to make is that if I did salvage, I would probably have been LM-17'd as well. It wasn't a crack at him being banned, but a point saying that the only real difference is that I'm here, he's not, and the reason is because I don't do salvage. If you couldn't decipher that, then that's your own problem.

Regarding an HP build and taru RSE: You realize that little offers more HP than taru RSE, right? Goliard body offers a little more HP, which I plan to get once I finish some other things. RSE2 hands and feet offer a bit more and I've been a little too lazy to spend the cash on them as of yet.

And no, the difference between "being kicked" and "leaving a LS" is whether or not your pearl was going to be broken. Mine wasn't. Plain and simple. I left of my own volition. I have screenshots of the last conversation to prove this, if you would like to see them (though it's not your business whatsoever).

I'll agree, my confidence does sometimes come off rather abrasive. Anyone that really knows me understands that and doesn't let it offend them. It's people who are unsure with themselves that I've found to usually be offended by it. BTW, the information that kaeko pioneered is indeed something I could have done on my own. I'm sure it's something hundreds of people could have done on their own as well. Kaeko did it before anyone else. I'd love to see your comments toward kaeko if someone else had done it first. Would you attack him so? I'll reiterate myself: I took what he discovered, and I used that information with my own experiments. I have my own results because of this.
#85 Aug 10 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
I've seen a lot of replies in this thread that, instead of contributing to the discussion, label the entire debate as useless, pointless, stupid, retarded, etc. If this were nothing more than a back-and-forth flame war over individual opinions regarding these jobs, it'd probably be true.. but this is not the case.

There've been a lot of really good topics brought up, and a lot of discussion over the finer points of the strategies a SCH can use in a variety of situations. If you're one of those who read the title, skimmed a couple of posts, and decided to label the entire thread a waste of time, I suggest you take another look. Also, these sweeping, general statments that attempt to sum up the differences between the two jobs in 30 words or less aren't contributing anything.

Nobody's trying to say one job is better than the other in an all-encompassing sense; we've been looking at a number of different situations and attempting to quantify each job's performance in an effort to improve our strategies. If that isn't the overall purpose of the SCH forums, then tell me; what is?
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#86 Aug 11 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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629 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
I've seen a lot of replies in this thread that, instead of contributing to the discussion, label the entire debate as useless, pointless, stupid, retarded, etc. If this were nothing more than a back-and-forth flame war over individual opinions regarding these jobs, it'd probably be true.. but this is not the case.


The OP posed the question: "For those who have both BLM and SCH at 75, do you find one useless?" This is the reason I say "SCH vs. BLM is a stupid argument." I have both at 75. There are some situations where SCH is much more useful than BLM. There are some situations where BLM is much more useful than SCH. Comparing the 2 is akin to comparing a BRD and a COR. Sure, they do some similar things, and even in a similar manner. They are, however, fundamentally very different. There isn't an acceptable comparison IMO between the 2 jobs. End-game gearing for a SCH looks like a garbled mess to a career BLM. End-game gearing to a BLM looks like a wet dream to a SCH. SCH has to simply think and act in a completely different manner that destroys a comparison between the 2.
#87 Aug 11 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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824 posts
Quote:
The OP posed the question: "For those who have both BLM and SCH at 75, do you find one useless?" This is the reason I say "SCH vs. BLM is a stupid argument."


The OP actually said:

Quote:
I am curious as to how you compare to BLM on the offensive end of course.


Quote:
First off, how do you compare in end game situations? Does your lower skill keep you from landing nukes consistently or no? How about your damage compared to BLM? I mainly do sky/sea/dynamis, but any examples would be very appreciated.


Quote:
For those of you that have SCH AND BLM at 75, do you find one of them to be useless or are they just situational? If so, how?


I ask that you pay special attention to the bolded parts. The OP wasn't looking for a yes or no answer to his question; he wanted examples, explanations, appraisals, analyses. You cite the similarities between the jobs as your reason for not wanting to compare the two, and then make general statements that might seem obvious to you, as you have both jobs leveled, but the OP clearly wanted a little more than your cliffnotes version.

You also overstate the differences between the nuking end of both jobs. While they have access to different gear, the formulas work the same for both. BLM's access to better gear does not somehow put it beyond comparison to another nuking job.

To the OP: I hope you've found the answers you're looking for here; if not, feel free to send a PM if you have any other questions. I'm sure the other knowledgable posters here would welcome them as well.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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