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Ability: Max SublimationFollow

#1 May 24 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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How does Max Sublimation work?

Do you get 10-50 MP as a bonus after a normal charge even if it's noT finished?
Or is it possible to store 10-50 more mp (more then 75% of your HP) which will make it take longer to charge to complete?

I'm sorry but I just don't get it.
#2 May 24 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basicly from my understanding, is you'll gain 10 more MP, for 10 more HP, over the cap.

So say you normally get 250 MP, for 250 HP. With 5/5, you'd get 300 MP, for 300 HP. This will go over the normal cap you'll have.
#3 May 24 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Klownzor is right. Its not a bonus per say.. Just an extension of what you already have. You still have to store those 10-50 extra.

Some would argue that its not a good merit, but less time spending using sublimation the better. as well, when your at full mp and fully stored sublimation, that's an extra 50mp on your total amount.
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#4Requim, Posted: May 24 2009 at 4:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) IMO, depends on if you have both AF sublimation pieces.
#5 May 24 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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while my sch doesn't have to worry about merits yet, but an extra 50 MP is nice if you are using Sublimation enough.

#6 May 24 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sublimation only matches refresh with 1 piece while it is active, but you'll lose out in the 30 second reuse time. At larger events, you'll typically have a refresh, so it isn't even needed after the first use. It's definitely low on priority.


I would like to point out that a SCH should never ever depend on Refresh after level 60.
Sublimation is virtually free. Refresh costs the RDM 40 mp. Having your RDM lose 40MP every cycle isn't worth you gaining 10~ MP.

Don't ask for refresh; specially at larger events where that MP could be better spent elsewhere.
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#7 May 24 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

I would like to point out that a SCH should never ever depend on Refresh after level 60.
Sublimation is virtually free. Refresh costs the RDM 40 mp. Having your RDM lose 40MP every cycle isn't worth you gaining 10~ MP.

Don't ask for refresh; specially at larger events where that MP could be better spent elsewhere.


This is why I get into parties with bards and cors, it's more interesting that way!
#8 May 24 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
IMO, depends on if you have both AF sublimation pieces.

Sublimation only matches refresh with 1 piece while it is active, but you'll lose out in the 30 second reuse time. At larger events, you'll typically have a refresh, so it isn't even needed after the first use. It's definitely low on priority.

If you do have both AF pieces I would imagine you would be using sublimation significantly more often, so it could easily justify the merits.


I'm sorry.. But I need to completely disagree with your logic here.

Before af head, I can understand taking a refresh for the sake of a higher mp tick. But like it was said, post 60, their are very few times you should ever need to receive it. Their is NO such thing as perfect scenario, so with that said, its highly unlikely that a rdm would be able to keep a perfect refresh cycle with out a gap in between refreshing you. So that 30sec wait is really somewhat irrelevant.

The only times to justifiably take a refresh is because your hp is too low to use sublimation, or you dont have enough mp to SS + sublimation(start) than rest. Otherwise your just wasting a rdm's time and mp when it could be better used elsewhere.

My sublimation max 5/5 gives me a 300~ mp storing ability. So that means rdm would have to cast refresh twice on me just to match that. 80mp... or an ability I can do on my own. Again I'll say it, waste of time and mp. If your rdm's are doing this in your ls it's likely because your sch's suck horrendously.

I will agree though that having both af head and afv2 body help quite a bit. Before you say it though, or someone else does, you would realistically need to keep 1 or both pieces on full time to have it match or beat refresh. Like it was mentioned though, the idea is that Sch is self-sufficient and should be making things easier, not the same old same old that comes with other jobs.


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#9 May 25 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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The only times to justifiably take a refresh is because your hp is too low to use sublimation, or you dont have enough mp to SS + sublimation(start) than rest. Otherwise your just wasting a rdm's time and mp when it could be better used elsewhere.


This is pretty much it. Unless you have overkill on whatever you are fighting, your rdm will probably have a lot of other things he could be doing instead of refreshing you.
#10 May 27 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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sublimation merits can be simulated by adding HP gear. They do increase sublimation's efficiency by a decent amount. I view them as wasted merit points, however, because when compared to the potency increase that both helix and MV merits add to our already most efficient spells for many situations, sublimation merits seem to be very overshadowed.

On the note of taking refresh post-60. I only ask for refresh under 1 of 3 circumstances:

1: I am weakened and have the duty of raising a large group of people with or without help.

2: My MP is too low to cast stoneskin.

3: I'm in a time-restricted situation where my MP is far more important than the RDM's MP.

Even when PT'd w/ a BRD and/or COR on end-game situations, I have personally found that making the most of the MP I have is more beneficial most of the time than having a plethora of MP. 4MP/tick sublimation is usually more than enough for whatever I'm doing. I would much rather have macc/mab from a COR and INT from a BRD than another 5-6 MP/tick. Doing so really boosts my damage output by a large amount which in turn reduces my need for repeated casts. All in all, it ends up being about the same MP-wise, but generally, fights go quicker and I have more fun.
#11 May 27 2009 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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@Banggugyangu

Pretty much dead on about the only reasons to want refresh. Though, i still dont see refresh > sublimation in those time-restricted scenarios. mp tick, or stored mp is the same thing. But i guess if your trying to look at is it as less effort or less things to worry about than ya sure.

As for those group 1 merits. I wont be the person to say what you "should" merit. When making my decisions it was pretty easy to do. I dont like swapping arts if i can avoid it. So Arts Recast was a waste for me. I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.

As for Helix magic Acc./Att., well that should be a given, and sublimation seemed to be what i would get the most out of because i use it constantly.

Like i said though, my way is not neccesarily the best way. but seemed like the best route to take advantage of both light and dark arts.
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#12 May 28 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I think the Sublimation merits are just so players can see big numbers when they use Sublimation. It's useful on your intial charge, but the appeal of having another 50 mp returned is devalued when you consider you still had to charge it up like normal. For this reason, while I can understand players finding it useful, I've avoided meriting it myself. I prefer to place my merits somewhere they'll be more of a benefit to my playing style.

The no-brainer choice for me was 5/5 Helix merits and 5/5 Modus Veritas. This is mostly because I love maximising the damage my helix spells can do. I have to admit I've not actually bothered with tier 2 merits beyond Stormsurge (which I think is a must for any Scholar). The thought of using up 2 charges for a minimal bonus seem wasteful and would have limited applications.
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#13 May 28 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.

Edited, May 28th 2009 4:28pm by hellbringerx
#14 May 29 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.
The same basic rules apply, however. Sublimation will still stop charging if you drop below 50% hitpoints. If you have particularly low hitpoints, such as when weakened, you need to bear that in mind before weighing up the benefits.
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#15 May 29 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Quote:
Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.
The same basic rules apply, however. Sublimation will still stop charging if you drop below 50% hitpoints. If you have particularly low hitpoints, such as when weakened, you need to bear that in mind before weighing up the benefits.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I wouldn't even consider doing anything before being at full hp and having a minimum of RR2 and SS up. Hitpoints dropping below 50% is basicly a non-issue unless you get hate from something. If you do that, however, ending you sublimation prematurely is the least of your worries ;)
#16 May 29 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I think the Sublimation merits are just so players can see big numbers when they use Sublimation. It's useful on your intial charge, but the appeal of having another 50 mp returned is devalued when you consider you still had to charge it up like normal. For this reason, while I can understand players finding it useful, I've avoided meriting it myself. I prefer to place my merits somewhere they'll be more of a benefit to my playing style.

The no-brainer choice for me was 5/5 Helix merits and 5/5 Modus Veritas.


This.

Also, I think something many people overlook is that you don't HAVE to wait for Sublimation to fully charge before using it. Sure, you'll do that prior to a big fight/event, but when you're constantly using it over the course of an EXP party or something, there is no need to wait for a full charge every time.
#17 May 29 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry if it's been said, I didn't see it as I scanned through the Refresh argument.

Scholars who participate in Salvage get an added benefit for meriting Max Sublimation. If, while under the effect of HP Pathos, you still have 100% HP, your Sublimation will tic off for up to the full amount you have meritted.

In situations where you can cast Stoneskin and have Job Abilities, but don't have HP, you'll still get MP from your Max Sublimation merits. I know my group would sometimes give SCH Magic and Abilities from the starter chest, and having those merits would help, even if it was a small amount.
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#18 May 29 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Scholars who participate in Salvage get an added benefit for meriting Max Sublimation. If, while under the effect of HP Pathos, you still have 100% HP, your Sublimation will tic off for up to the full amount you have meritted.

In situations where you can cast Stoneskin and have Job Abilities, but don't have HP, you'll still get MP from your Max Sublimation merits. I know my group would sometimes give SCH Magic and Abilities from the starter chest, and having those merits would help, even if it was a small amount.


I dunno if SCH is different or what, but when I try to use Sublimation in Salvage as WHM/SCH when my HP is still reduced, it doesn't work at all, even if I'm at 100% HP with Stoneskin up. The charge immediately stops, and when I use Sublimation again I only get 2 MP back.
#19 May 29 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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ElVendi wrote:
I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.


If you're not using helices on a regular basis, you're missing out on a large amount of damage for very little MP. The fact that MV merits actually increase that damage even more for no cost whatsoever is what gives them priority for me. I don't exactly enjoy spending time on something that won't increase my potential.

An example of sublimation for my character.

With a full store on sublimation I get 248 MP back. I have relic body so this takes 186 seconds or 3 minutes 6 seconds to charge. Add 30 seconds to this for a total of 248 MP every 3 minutes 36 seconds. ~1.148 MP per second or ~68.889 MP/minute.

With capped sublimation merits, I would receive 298 MP. This would take 223 seconds or 3 minutes 43 seconds to charge. Add 30 seconds onto this for a total of 298 MP every 4 minutes 13 seconds. ~1.779 MP per second or ~70.672 MP/minute.

This is a very minor benefit from a lot of merit points.
#20 May 29 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
I dunno if SCH is different or what, but when I try to use Sublimation in Salvage as WHM/SCH when my HP is still reduced, it doesn't work at all, even if I'm at 100% HP with Stoneskin up. The charge immediately stops, and when I use Sublimation again I only get 2 MP back.


I can get sublimation ticking as a WHM/SCH with no HP merits with just SS + full HP.

I do know that some items may screw this up (I haven't really tested which). There is a certain combination of items that will somehow make my subli not tick even at capped HP. I think it was intensifying + walhara or something. I really don't know why it works at certain HP's and it wont at others, I'm guessing it just has to do with rounding values.

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#21 May 29 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.


You don't really merit Modus Veritas because it's incredibly wtfomg useful (although as stated, for an extended fight against something where helices actually land well, it can essentially act as a free near hate-less nuke if you fully merit this), you merit it because your other options are generally worse. >_>
#22 May 29 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
You don't really merit Modus Veritas because it's incredibly wtfomg useful (although as stated, for an extended fight against something where helices actually land well, it can essentially act as a free near hate-less nuke if you fully merit this), you merit it because your other options are generally worse. >_>


I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.
#23 May 29 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.


Those numbers are a bit inflated for most cases/SCHs, but sure.
#24 May 29 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.


Those numbers are a bit inflated for most cases/SCHs, but sure.


I can honestly say that for the mobs I regularly helix, I see consistant numbers of 175-225 with full durations. That equates to 1750-2250. Fair average would be 200/2000. Just because not everyone can put out numbers like that means that I shouldn't use myself as an example of myself?
#25 May 29 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I can honestly say that for the mobs I regularly helix, I see consistant numbers of 175-225 with full durations. That equates to 1750-2250. Fair average would be 200/2000. Just because not everyone can put out numbers like that means that I shouldn't use myself as an example of myself?


I don't think helices last for 9-10 ticks even without Modus >_>

Edited, May 29th 2009 4:37pm by Fynlar
#26 May 29 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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Fully unresisted helix is initial damage + 9 ticks. That's info that was discovered almost immediately after they patched the original that was random anywhere from 2-13 ticks.
#27 May 29 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Fully unresisted helix is initial damage + 9 ticks. That's info that was discovered almost immediately after they patched the original that was random anywhere from 2-13 ticks.


If that's the case I'm reading a lot of conflicting/erroneous information from various sources >_<

What is the maximum duration for a helix anyways? If helix ticks are 9-10 seconds (they appear to be around that much, but I don't know the precise time) I'm guessing unresisted helix has to last longer than 1 minute in order to get that many ticks in.

Is there some randomness placed on helix duration no matter what you do, like there is for enfeebs like Gravity? Or will it nearly always land for the same consistent duration if the target is vulnerable enough?

Edited, May 29th 2009 5:27pm by Fynlar
#28 May 29 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Ticks are 9 seconds apart. They can be partially or fully resisted in terms of both damage and duration. *I've actually had a helix deal it's initial damage and immediately wear off.*

Pre-update, they were allotted a maximum time *somewhere around 2 minutes* and resistance would just shorten that amount of time. They were also fairly inaccurate as well.

Post-update, they were allotted a maximum of 9 ticks. This equates to just under 1 minute 30 seconds. The accuracy was boosted considerably. I rarely have any land for less than 4 ticks. Most often, I see 7-8. Wiki states an average of about a minute, which I see as pretty accurate for most.

A full duration helix will total out to exactly 10x the initial damage. *Initial damage is included* I've parsed this on Boreal hound with someone simply holding him for me. I killed him with nothing but helices *took forever* but I got very accurate results. Never once landed more than 9 ticks. Never once landed less than 7. *he's a joke like everyone already knows*
#29 May 29 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Hrmm, good stuff.

At least tier 1 merits are an easy pick due to the other options being lackluster. (To me everything in tier 2 is pretty lackluster, with Stormsurge being "that thing you only merit because everything else is worse", so I don't much care about that yet, hah...)

I think wiki could stand to have a bit more detailed info about helices, but since I don't have SCH leveled myself yet I don't feel qualified to edit it yet.
#30 May 29 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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@ Banggugyangu

I never once claimed that Max Sublimation was a better choice than Modis Veritas. So for you to argue it being "Better" is truly irrelevant. I did how ever state that for my specific needs that Max Sublimation was more beneficial.

Again, my reasoning...

I am NOT a full time "Dark Arts" Sch, so i dont always have the option of helices. So again i will say, when looking at both sides of sch, Max sublimation benefited both sides of arts, instead of specifically one side that I likely wouldnt use often. Most of the time I do use dark arts the last thing i would want to do is DoT the mob, except a few NM's that are unsleepable.

Now for when i AM under Dark Arts specifically and my main focus is nuking. The majority of the mobs i fight dont last long enough for a Helix duration to completely finish. To me, that is a waste of mp to cast it if the mob is only going to be alive for half or less of the duration of the helix. I will agree however that it is more desirable on higher tier mobs where the fights are longer.

Again I will SAY!.. this is not to discourage the usefulness of Modus Veritas as a merit, it has its benefits, but for what I am called upon on a normal basis, it is truly lackluster. I find it funny that you would encourage others to choose specific merits, or SAY! whats better before really understanding what role they may be expected to hold or what they prefer to do.

I dont much feel like getting into a pi**ing match with you about which merits are better, because again.. its irrelevant. In the end its dependant on what you expect from the job. I know sch's that dont even touch dark arts spells/abilities, you gonna tell them they need modus veritas when they never plan to use it? I never once made claims to what was "better", simply my experiences on what i do as sch(which includes alot of soloing that doesnt include DoT). So to argue my decision doesnt really get us
anywhere, except for arguing our "personal preference" on play styles. But considering we all choose to play the job for varying reasons, again i will say this argument is irrelevant.


EDIT~~ Just as a side note, im curious as to what your max helix dmg gear is. Im personally missing 4pieces(not including mythic weapon) to optimize my dmg.

Edited, May 30th 2009 2:59am by ElVendi
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#31 Jun 03 2009 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
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A sch friend of mine said that you could get an extra tic off helixes if you timed it to go off exactly right... that the tics were based on your computer's clock time. In other words, the tics might start every time it hit a 0 in seconds, and timing it so it would land right as the clock hit 0 would result in an extra tic.

Of course, my sch is only 44 so can't test it myself, anyone interested? ;-;
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#32 Jun 03 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Scholars who participate in Salvage get an added benefit for meriting Max Sublimation. If, while under the effect of HP Pathos, you still have 100% HP, your Sublimation will tic off for up to the full amount you have meritted.

In situations where you can cast Stoneskin and have Job Abilities, but don't have HP, you'll still get MP from your Max Sublimation merits. I know my group would sometimes give SCH Magic and Abilities from the starter chest, and having those merits would help, even if it was a small amount.


I dunno if SCH is different or what, but when I try to use Sublimation in Salvage as WHM/SCH when my HP is still reduced, it doesn't work at all, even if I'm at 100% HP with Stoneskin up. The charge immediately stops, and when I use Sublimation again I only get 2 MP back.


Scholar -is- different. The key is the merits themselves. This is why ???/SCH wouldn't work.

If a SCH has a pathos effect on his HP, but has 100% HP, Stoneskin, and 5/5 Sublimation merits, that SCH will sublimate for 50MP before capping.*

It's a glitch in the code or something, but it leads me to believe that the Sublimation merits are calculated -first-, not last.

Now, if that same SCH is in the middle of Sublimating his 50MP and takes any damage to drop his pathos'd HP down by any amount, the Sublimation will end.

The SCH needs to maintain 100% HP (while under pathos) the entire time the Sublimation is ticking away. We had multiple instances where our SCH had 90% HP or something from a random AoE, tossed up Stoneskin, and Sublimated for 2MP. The "trick" only works if the SCH has 100% HP and Stoneskin, and even then it only works for the amount of MP meritted.

If the SCH has his HP unlocked, Sublimation works as normal.


*edit*
*As an aside, I think it has to do with the fact that Sublmation is calculated as long as HP is greater than or equal to 50%. As soon as HP dips below 50%, Sublimation counts one last tic and then stops. Now, this differs from the ickywiki explanation, so if I'm correct, that's a significant note to be made.

However, I've only experienced it with one SCH, and it may be worth noting individual pathos effects on SCHs in Salvage, since it is truly my assumption that the Salvage pathos is a HP-50% effect, which may not be accurate.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 11:32am by Acturus
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#33 Jun 03 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I wouldn't even consider doing anything before being at full hp and having a minimum of RR2 and SS up. Hitpoints dropping below 50% is basicly a non-issue unless you get hate from something. If you do that, however, ending you sublimation prematurely is the least of your worries ;)
What I was getting at was your previous post noting how useful Sublimation is while in a weakened state. However while weakened your maximum hitpoints are significantly reduced, therefore not only is the maximum charge reduced accordingly, but the length of time available to charge is reduced. That additional 50hp -> MP recharge can easily extend over your 50% health margin when you're weakened, thus you'd need a regen effect to counter it. When you're spending MP to gain MP, you have to weigh that against it's overall effectiveness.
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#34 Jun 03 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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ElVendi wrote:
@ Banggugyangu

...


Again, my reasoning...

I am NOT a full time "Dark Arts" Sch, so i dont always have the option of helices.

...

EDIT~~ Just as a side note, im curious as to what your max helix dmg gear is. Im personally missing 4pieces(not including mythic weapon) to optimize my dmg.

Edited, May 30th 2009 2:59am by ElVendi


That's one of the beauties of helices. There's little reason to not switch to dark arts and cast the appropriate helix then back to light arts. If helices required addendum black it'd be a different story.

As for my gear: I'm sitting on 13 INT away from having 170 INT which is taru max pre-food.
#35 Jun 03 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Well... I do swap every so often, but again, if I'm the only one main healing a tank(mainly an event type thing) I don't think it's the best idea of trying to fiddle between arts. Though their are times when I prob would have time to swap..

AS for you gear.. damn! 170 Int, dont think im any where near that. Off the top of my head I think I'm at 125ish without food. I know its asking a lot, but would you mind putting down what gear you use? Also, cant remember if I had already read it or not, but have forgotten, what has a bigger impact on helix dmg? Int or MAB?
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#36 Jun 03 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't list it off the top of my head. I'm at work atm. I've spent a long time working on my SCH gear and am almost to the peak for dark arts. INT by far is the best stat to stack for helices because of the horribly botched formula. For Sky Gods and ToAU kings, helices are nearly worthless *except byakko* for everything else, if it lasts 1 minute, 30 seconds or more it's definitely worth it. ~2000 damage for ~70ish MP *can't think of exact MP cost* is fairly broken.
#38 Jun 04 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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1: I've been in that situation without relic body. You do just fine with sublimation.

2: With relic body sublimation gives you MP faster than refresh does. This includes the 30 seconds of downtime between using and starting again.

3: YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR SUBLIMATION TO BE FULL TO GET THE MP YOU'VE ALREADY STORED. You can dump your charge at any time during the charging process after the initial 30 seconds. The only problem is the quicker you blow your load, the less efficient sublimation becomes.

That 40 MP would have been better spent on a tier 2 nuke, but the RIGHT way to spend that MP is to have the RDM and SAMs go kill mobs while you do your solo thing.
#39 Jun 04 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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So I was building a int gear set on FFXIgear.com trying to figure out what gear you could possibly have to get your int that high. I was able to build a +75 and +82 with food. Was wondering, do you use kirins pole instead of Ele. staves?

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#40 Jun 05 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Taru base INT is 83 *post merits*. That leaves the need for 87 total INT to reach the goal of 170. Keep in mind that 90% of the time I'm using ice nukes in ice weather for +12 more INT over other nukes. As I said, I'm currently sitting on 157 INT pre-food. Food takes that up to 164. I only need 6 more INT to reach the pinnacle without kirin's pole. Some of the pieces I need include mahatma body/legs, a 2nd snow ring *they tripled in price when I went to buy them*, and gleeman's cape *my LS does einherjar too late for me*. Those 4 pieces of gear would put me at 170 INT.
#41 Jun 05 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Perhaps another (somewhat silly?) take on the Modus Veritas versus Max Sublimation argument:

Bear in mind Modus Veritas is on a 10 minute timer. Now, if you had full Max Sublimation merits, would the extra MP you gain over a 10 minute space of time be enough to equal or exceed the damage from an enhanced helix using another helix or nuke?

(Of course, I'm assuming the current take on the argument is regarding damage rather than possible concerns over enmity.)

Assuming you have both the Scholar's Mortarboard and the Argute Gown with 5/5 Max Sublimation Merits, with 1000 HP, you will Sublimate 300 MP in 3 minutes 45 seconds. (Perfect scenario of having both pieces of gear on at each tick.)

In 10 minutes, that's roughly 2.66~ full charges of Sublimation. When you account for a couple of 30 second cooldowns on the timer, that's still about 2.4 full charges... which, I believe, is an extra 120 MP.***

Now then, does this imaginary character have enough to cover/exceed the extra damage from Modus Veritas with this extra MP with careful use of one or two strategems?

If you don't have an Argute Gown, it would take this person 5 minutes to Sublimate that 300 MP. Over the course of 10 minutes (minus a minute to cover cooldowns), that's 1.8 full charges of Sublimation, i.e. 90 MP.*** Is that enough?

Might be worth thinking about. Maybe.

Also, this speculation is purely coming from the Dark Arts side. Personally, I see the Sublimation merits as more useful in the long run because it benefits both sides of SCH, whilst Modus Veritas only boosts Dark Arts. However, neither boost is particularly awe-inspiring.


(Edit: Hmm. Not sure if I've worked this out correctly. I wonder if someone more mathematically-inclined could check/correct this? XD)

(*** Edit 2: Actually, not sure the Scholar's Mortarboard scenario is correct. You're only getting 50 extra MP because you're not using a full charge. And I suppose the same thing applies to the Gown/MB scenario too, with 100 MP. But anyway, I'd say Sublimation merits are even more worthwhile if you have the Argute Gown. I think...)

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 1:55pm by Secretkeeper

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:36pm by Secretkeeper
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#42 Jun 05 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Quote:
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I wouldn't even consider doing anything before being at full hp and having a minimum of RR2 and SS up. Hitpoints dropping below 50% is basicly a non-issue unless you get hate from something. If you do that, however, ending you sublimation prematurely is the least of your worries ;)
What I was getting at was your previous post noting how useful Sublimation is while in a weakened state. However while weakened your maximum hitpoints are significantly reduced, therefore not only is the maximum charge reduced accordingly, but the length of time available to charge is reduced. That additional 50hp -> MP recharge can easily extend over your 50% health margin when you're weakened, thus you'd need a regen effect to counter it. When you're spending MP to gain MP, you have to weigh that against it's overall effectiveness.


Stoneskin not regen..... Why in the world would you rely on regen while weakened (or ever for that matter) to offset sublimation? As for the MP cost....it's almost the same mp cost while weakened as it is while unweakened. Granted you probably won't get every last drop of Stoneskin used up because of the 30 second recast for sublimation, but it's not enough to worry about. However, since only math seems to get through to people these days....here you go:

Given: 1120 base HP & 5/5 Sublimation merits

While weakened:
280 base HP * 25% = 70 base MP stored + 50 from merits = 120 Total MP Stored.

350 HP Stoneskin costs 29 mp and lasts 5 minutes

If sublimation is used at perfect efficiency:

4mp/3sec

120/4= 30tics * 3sec = 90 seconds to full charge

Including 30 second recast, this gives us an even 2 minutes.
So 240 mp + (60 seconds *4mp/3sec) = 320 mp stored/hp consumed.

320 gained - 29 spent = 291 total gain

Again, this is assuming perfect efficiency...but 250+ total gain is pretty reasonable. IMO is sure beats being more or less totally useless for 5 minutes.

#43 Jun 05 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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629 posts
Secretkeeper wrote:
Perhaps another (somewhat silly?) take on the Modus Veritas versus Max Sublimation argument:

Bear in mind Modus Veritas is on a 10 minute timer. Now, if you had full Max Sublimation merits, would the extra MP you gain over a 10 minute space of time be enough to equal or exceed the damage from an enhanced helix using another helix or nuke?

(Of course, I'm assuming the current take on the argument is regarding damage rather than possible concerns over enmity.)

Assuming you have both the Scholar's Mortarboard and the Argute Gown with 5/5 Max Sublimation Merits, with 1000 HP, you will Sublimate 300 MP in 3 minutes 45 seconds. (Perfect scenario of having both pieces of gear on at each tick.)

In 10 minutes, that's roughly 2.66~ full charges of Sublimation. When you account for a couple of 30 second cooldowns on the timer, that's still about 2.4 full charges... which, I believe, is an extra 120 MP.

Now then, does this imaginary character have enough to cover/exceed the extra damage from Modus Veritas with this extra MP with careful use of one or two strategems?

If you don't have an Argute Gown, it would take this person 5 minutes to Sublimate that 300 MP. Over the course of 10 minutes (minus a minute to cover cooldowns), that's 1.8 full charges of Sublimation, i.e. 90 MP. Is that enough?

Might be worth thinking about. Maybe.

Also, this speculation is purely coming from the Dark Arts side. Personally, I see the Sublimation merits as more useful in the long run because it benefits both sides of SCH, whilst Modus Veritas only boosts Dark Arts. However, neither boost is particularly awe-inspiring.


In my very real situation that I stated above, the difference in MP gained over the course of 10 minutes with full sublimation merits vs without is 17.83 MP. We'll go ahead and round this up to 18 MP to be generous. Your math is flawed somewhere, though I'm not sure where as I didn't read your post thoroughly.

Full modus veritas merits equates to an extra half of a helix every 10 minutes. A helix costs 87 MP. Dividing that by half, you get 43.5. Essentially, full modus veritas merits is saving you 43.5 MP by adding that extra damage. More in depth, it's also saving you half of the enmity of another helix *which is somewhat of a moot point as helices are low enmity due to only the initial damage creating enmity*.

The real comparison here is 17.83 vs 43.5. In this comparison Modus Veritas wins in MP conservation.

For the argument of "MV only enhances Dark Arts." Once again... I say... Helices are NOT spells reliant on the arts you are going to be using for the mobs you're fighting. They're reliant on the mobs themselves. Because no addendum is required to use a helix and the low cast time involved, there's little-to-no reason to not switch to dark arts for the helix cast IF THE MOB IS A VALID TARGET FOR HELICES. Not all mobs are, and I won't try to say they are. Many, however, are. For those, if at least 1 SCH isn't using helix on them, there's a lot of damage not happening that should.

*edit* Why are people still factoring in Stoneskin costs for sublimation? If you don't have stoneskin up anyway, you're near retarded.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 12:36pm by Banggugyangu
#44 Jun 05 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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2,976 posts
Quote:
Again, this is assuming perfect efficiency...but 250+ total gain is pretty reasonable. IMO is sure beats being more or less totally useless for 5 minutes.

It's also assuming you're still casting while weakened. Sublimation is great for restoring lost MP, but your MP will be considerably reduced as a result also, so you may not be able to make full use of the charges you do get back. Chances are by the end of it you'd have been resting instead, giving you only the 120 mp charge. More useful than not, I'll grant you, but is it really worth 150,000 experience points just for 50 extra MP when you're half dead?

Resting is far more beneficial for restoring your MP when weakness wears than Sublimation is, even with merits. Every "tick" of MP restored is increased the longer you rest, even if you're at maximum. When weakness wears, it will be a large amount of MP, easily making that small effort to restore MP through sublimation a waste.
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#45 Jun 16 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Quote:
Again, this is assuming perfect efficiency...but 250+ total gain is pretty reasonable. IMO is sure beats being more or less totally useless for 5 minutes.

It's also assuming you're still casting while weakened. Sublimation is great for restoring lost MP, but your MP will be considerably reduced as a result also, so you may not be able to make full use of the charges you do get back. Chances are by the end of it you'd have been resting instead, giving you only the 120 mp charge. More useful than not, I'll grant you, but is it really worth 150,000 experience points just for 50 extra MP when you're half dead?

Resting is far more beneficial for restoring your MP when weakness wears than Sublimation is, even with merits. Every "tick" of MP restored is increased the longer you rest, even if you're at maximum. When weakness wears, it will be a large amount of MP, easily making that small effort to restore MP through sublimation a waste.


If you read my post, it was always assuming that I will be "zombie" fighting. More often than not, I am filling a healing/support role as Sch. Also, we don't generally have more healers than neccessary, so if one of us goes down for some reason, we don't have the luxury to just "sit it out" most of the time.

Everyone plays the game differently, but for those of us that make an effort to contribute as much as possible (even while weakened), the Max Sublimation merits help a ton.
#46 Jun 16 2009 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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109 posts
Helix is an amazing spell when your able to get it to hit for a lot. But like i've said in previous posts... Theirs not always an option to cast it, either because your mp is better needed somewhere else or because any type of DoT regardless if its short is not a good idea. Been working to maximizing my helix dmg, and yes, again, it is amazing. But that is assuming your in a position to use it. I could go an entire event where using it is pointless. That event mite last 3-4hrs. You cannot tell me that still having Modus Veritas merits are better when more often than not i'm not in a position to use it. It may be different for you where nuking/dots are more expected from you, but that may not be the case for others. It's truly a silly debate(regardless if i keep partaking in it >.>).
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#47 Jun 17 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Decent
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ElVendi wrote:
Helix is an amazing spell when your able to get it to hit for a lot. But like i've said in previous posts... Theirs not always an option to cast it, either because your mp is better needed somewhere else or because any type of DoT regardless if its short is not a good idea. Been working to maximizing my helix dmg, and yes, again, it is amazing. But that is assuming your in a position to use it. I could go an entire event where using it is pointless. That event mite last 3-4hrs. You cannot tell me that still having Modus Veritas merits are better when more often than not i'm not in a position to use it. It may be different for you where nuking/dots are more expected from you, but that may not be the case for others. It's truly a silly debate(regardless if i keep partaking in it >.>).


Allow me to demonstrate what should happen in the mind of a SCH when deciding whether to use a helix or not:

Quote:
Is this mob a sky god? Yes: Is this mob Byakko? Yes: Use Noctohelix and drain. No: Use appropriate T4 spell.

This mob is not a sky god, is it a ToAU King? Yes: Is this Khimaira? Yes: Use Blizzard 4. No: Switch to Light arts.

This mob is not a ToAU King, will it die in less than 90 seconds? Yes: Use appropriate nuke to avoid pulling hate. No: Did the LS throw some poo against a fan? Yes: Sleep it. No: Use helix.


Following that little guide should tell you that more often than not, helices are 100% effective. I use them while soloing, in dienamis, in limbus, against byakko, against ground kings, in nyzul isle, etc... You can't get away w/ saying that more often than not it's not applicable... because it is.
#48 Jun 17 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I disagree, just because I have the potential to both heal and nuke doesnt mean I should be doing both all the time. If I solo, i will not DoT anything, regardless of its length. Call me a noob or what you will, I just wont. I'd rather take the slight hit to my mp than risk a grav wearing and me getting rapped cuz bind timer isnt up yet. I helix only when sleep isnt an option, its an extended fight, or when i'm not "main" healing. And even still, when i do helix, Modus veritas is only going to take effect every 10mins, assuming I do a helix at that 10min mark every time to get the most out of the merits i sunk into the ability.

Again i'll reiterate.. I still find it funny your still arguing this.
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#49 Jun 17 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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ElVendi wrote:
I disagree, just because I have the potential to both heal and nuke doesnt mean I should be doing both all the time.

[...]

Again i'll reiterate.. I still find it funny your still arguing this.


And there's the crux of the discussion. The two of you have different playstyles.
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#50 Jun 18 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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ElVendi wrote:
I disagree, just because I have the potential to both heal and nuke doesnt mean I should be doing both all the time.


And I also disagree. I feel that any time a helix is applicable, there's almost no reason to refrain from its use. If it took even half the time to cast as a tier 3 spell, then I could understand this, but it doesn't. Helices cast time is somewhere around 2 seconds. Factoring in 2 seconds for arts switching and you come up w/ something around 4 seconds total before being able to resume main healing. Any event relying on a SCH rather than a WHM for main healing is going to be a situation that's much lower stress than a WHM generally deals with. Any situation where a WHM is main healing, the SCH will probably be support buffing.

Once again... my point is this: Helices take almost no time to use, and add that much more to the damage. Hate isn't an issue with them, as it gives about the same amount of hate as aero. MP cost is very low with helices. If any of these three conditions were different, then I could understand your point. They're not, however. Arguing that a helix on an applicable mob is not worth the cast is about the same as arguing that Dia is not worth the cast. I consider Dia to be a nuke of sorts. Not for the fact that it deals DoT, but because it increases the damage of every melee around. Helices, when used right, will deal as much or more damage than the increase Dia allows. With the time, MP, and enmity involved with them, they're just too valuable for such low costs.

If you purchase a car, and the dealership offers you perfectly fine banana, should you turn it down because "just because you have the potential to drive and eat a banana doesn't mean you should be doing both all the time."?
#51 Jun 18 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you purchase a car, and the dealership offers you perfectly fine banana, should you turn it down because "just because you have the potential to drive and eat a banana doesn't mean you should be doing both all the time."?


Car dealers are snakes. I would bet there's more to the banana than meets the eye.
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