Sir Crystan wrote:
Right, so there's no skill in timing a weaponskill or knowing how to pull the thing off in the first place, but there is skill in bashing your insta weaponskill button everytime you hit 100% TP?
Where did I say it took skill? I said it took more attention, because you're WSing more often (and gasp, often doing more damage). Back then, a DD who geared themselves well could do their SC, then go back to watching TV until ~200TP cause they had to wait for their gimp SC partner to catch up.
Back then, every party needed a distortion=>darkness skillchain, and a blm to MB it. The "must-have" jobs have changed, but the requirements for "the best" party will always be there, depending on the camp. MNK burns are "the best" in KRT, DRG/RNG/THF burns are "the best" at birds, 2-handed DD setups are "the best" at mamools. Also, most BLMs made a macro for their MB, that told the melee when to WS so that the SC would go off in time for the MB. Where is the skill in doing what an automated macro tells you to do, every mob, for a couple hours? Or counting to 3 in your head before hitting your WS macro, in not-ancient-magic situations? Preschool r hard.
Sit Crystan wrote:
And DD's expected to tank? No, they just take hits and expect the healer to take up the slack. They don't TANK, they just get smacked in the teeth. That's like saying a WHM tanks when they dump a Divine Seal Curaga IV in the midst of a fight. They're not really intending to tank, they're just the receiving the punishment they deserve. None of these guys is equipped to take hits, not a SINGLE one. So exactly how can you say there's any skill in letting a monster chew your face off?
I'm sorry that you don't seem to party with anyone decent, but comparing good players from "back then" with dumb players of today isn't making a fair argument. There are plenty of competent players today, and there were plenty of terrible people who couldn't do anything right back then.
"Gear to tank"? Are you kidding? Please point me to this tanking gear that DDs can wear, especially in the 50s and 60s, because even paladins don't gear to tank anymore except on HNM/endgame fights. SE botched up their damage formulas with regards to VIT and DEF, to the point where if you don't have shadows or shield mastery, you can't properly mitigate damage no matter how good your gear is. Have you ever seen a 75 WAR/MNK in full koenig armor and vit rings tank? You know how much damage they take compared to a WAR/NIN in haste gear? A hell of a lot more.
Sir Crystan wrote:
Oh, I don't doubt that Paladin benefits from Refresh. That's obvious, but essential? Not a chance. Especially not now thanks to Chivalry and Auto-Refresh. Back then RDM was practically essential because PLD had absolutely NO recovery tools, now it's a luxury. Unfortunately, as my previous post will tell you, people have come to expect luxuries.
It's more essential than ever, because now each DD is doing more damage, and therefore pulling more hate. As I said, in the SC+MB parties, DDs were holding back their individual damage for the sake of one SC+MB that would finish the mob off. They stacked all their enmity on at the very end of the fight, when it didn't matter because the mob was about to die anyway. Now, they build their hate constantly, WSing as soon as they have TP for the sake of faster chains (and yes, faster XP). If you expect a PLD to tank for more than 10 seconds a fight in XP parties, you HAVE to give them refresh, or they just became an occasional backup healer that does some damage, too.
There other ways to get refresh without a RDM, too. BRDs can do it. CORs can do it. DNCs can kind of do it, if you aren't drastically overcamping. SE even had a flash of brilliance and made Aspir Samba subbable, so a /DNC can refresh a party's tank and melee (like BLU or DRK) if you really can't find one.
If this party had gone to crabs it would have been a great setup, since Aspir Samba would work, it had Dispel, and the melee could actually hit the mob. Whose fault is it that the party failed, if the party failed because the leader chose the wrong camp for the given setup?
Chivalry is a meritable ability btw, this level 54 PLD didn't have it. And auto-refresh is only 1/tic, 20 mp/minute isn't even an extra flash. It helps, but it's nowhere near enough on its own. With parade gorget, sanction, and auto-refresh it's still something, but the hate demands have gone up in XP (hence my "it's not 2004 anymore"), so if you want a designated tank, you need to supply that demand for them to function in their role.
Sir Crystan wrote:
Skill is not equipment. Skill is not turning yourself into an impromptu meat shield. Skill is not hitting a weaponskill button every few seconds. And skill is definetly not having the "perfect" party. Skill is knowing your enemies and their abilities and being able to react to them. Skill is being able to maintain hate rather than attract it. Skill is being able to cure/buff/debuff/refresh/haste all of the nonchalant melee's these days and have MP left over for emergencies.
Skill is setting up a party strategically. Grabbing a PLD tank with no refresh, no THF to at least help plant hate on them, 3 random DDs, and a couple healers isn't strategic, it's desperate for a couple hours XP before work. It also isn't especially fun for the tank, it's irritating trying to hold hate without the proper support to back you up.
Believe it or not, fun is important too, and I can safely say from many fail parties that the tank is always the first to get blamed when the XP is bad (see: this post). If your party isn't going too smoothly, instead of just lashing out at the tank (or the healer, as is sometimes the case), why not just go to a better camp that fits your setup better?
The setup was poor, the camp choice was poor, the communication was poor, and the result was poor. There was no skill involved in forming, leading, or maintaining the party in the OP. The OP then came to the forum and immediately blamed the tank, as many party leads do. Maybe this is the reason tanks want a good setup before they will even consider XPing in the first place. Did it occur to you that maybe the tank wants to have fun too? It's hard to have fun when the leader sets up a party that doesn't even support you properly, and he's probably had that hassle laid on him enough times before to see the writing on the wall and get out early.
If you want a PLD to tank with no refresh or a NIN to tank with no haste, you need a THF (or 60+, at least a /THF) to put hate on them. This is even worse when you are overcamping, like going to colibri at 54, because the NIN is never going to evade a mob that much higher level than them, and a PLD is going to be getting hit for a lot more damage than they would be at say, 57 or so.
Sir Crystan wrote:
Don't talk to me about skill, I played when it meant something.
Cute. I still play, and it still means something. Maybe you should find a linkshell with some skilled players in it and play with them. That's what I did, and they exist on every server. In fact, I found a few LSes like that, and only one of them is in endgame. The rest are just friends that know what they're doing and like to XP.
Think of all the buffs DDs have received in the past few years. The two-handed update, hasso from /SAM, new foods like marinara pizza and crab sushi (letting people eat sushi at birds for cheap), buffs to penta-thrust/sam WSes/raging rush, are just some of the more recent ones. Colibri aint robber crabs, and puks/imps aint steelshells when it comes to defense, either. Tanks have to compensate for every buff that DDs get, and auto-refresh and shield mastery are great, but they don't measure up to 10% haste and +10% acc on every melee, or WSes suddenly doing 200ish more damage. No one in a party should have to do their job alone, that's the whole point of having 5 other people in the party. Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:29pm by Drexis Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:55pm by Drexis