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#1 Mar 12 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Default
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I was invited to a lvl 54 party last night. Its 54, you fight colibri. Its not going to be great at this level, but its better than the alternative, crabs.

Party starts gathering and eventually the pld shows up and gets an invite. 10 seconds later the pld reminds everyone there is no Refresh and then disbands... I'm like sure whatever, and send the pld a tell reminding him the game isn't such serious business that refresh is a reason to leave a party. He reminds me he was defiantly going to die, I remind him I would of died first and I don't care. Thats the end of that conversation.

So we stand around 5/6 for awhile, and eventually a Ninja gets an invite. 10 seconds later the nin reminds everyone there is no Haste, but ensures everyone he is ok with that as long as we don't fight Colibri. /facepalm

Conversation ensues about crabs, and stuff... leader DCes, I wait the obligatory 10 minutes and log out.

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I've leveled enough jobs that this kind of childishness shouldn't bother me anymore. I should have just found a duo party and went and killed more pets.
#2 Mar 12 2009 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
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No Refresh for a SCH = who cares. No refresh for a PLD = crybaby PLD.

No Haste for a melee = no epeen. No haste for a NIN = crybaby NIN.


@ least you didn't have the same experience as I had last night on DNC.... I get to a PT and the NIN expects me to tank....

...the NIN expects the DNC to tank...

so I ignore him and begin doin my curing thing... and even w/ the garbage THF giving him lol300 damage TA Dancing Edges *@ 62* I'm still pulling hate w/ minor curing to help out the RDM.

10 minutes into the PT... I decide to use a WS.... I time it so it's right after a TADE from the THF... his is 300... mine is 650..... I pull hate.... I tank the whole bird... irritating PT
#3 Mar 12 2009 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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If there is one thing, Haste to NIN is more important than PLD to have Refresh. You seem to be little overhunting, being able to keep shadows up (with Haste) will save a lot of pain. But for sure, PLD with no Refresh go Q_Q is far more unreasonable; say Hello to Sanction Refresh, Homemade Juices, and Dark Staff.

Quote:

...the NIN expects the DNC to tank...

so I ignore him and begin doin my curing thing... and even w/ the garbage THF giving him lol300 damage TA Dancing Edges *@ 62* I'm still pulling hate w/ minor curing to help out the RDM.

10 minutes into the PT... I decide to use a WS.... I time it so it's right after a TADE from the THF... his is 300... mine is 650..... I pull hate.... I tank the whole bird... irritating PT


Frankly speaking, a NIN that not willing to main tank after 37 should be warning sign that is going to be bad. You should post what gear the THF was wearing :P (it is not too difficult to do 1k+ on DE at a rather low level on birds Smiley: glare)
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#4 Mar 12 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tanking on lolbri at 54 isn't easy. You'll whiff like crazy making holding hate quite tough. I can see where a PLD would demand refresh at that level and a ninja haste.

Plus, if he was going to "defiantly" die doesn't that mean he was simply going to die to spite the party?

Cuz if so, he wins the internet.
#5 Mar 12 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Tanking on lolbri at 54 isn't easy. You'll whiff like crazy making holding hate quite tough. I can see where a PLD would demand refresh at that level and a ninja haste.

Plus, if he was going to "defiantly" die doesn't that mean he was simply going to die to spite the party?

Cuz if so, he wins the internet.


People are definitely spoiled now. Before updates, ToAU and new gear, there were a lot of parties that we didn't have red mage. We still did it with resting.

With Sanction Refresh + Parade Gorget + MP refresh from trait= 3mp/tick. There should be no complaints from paladin as that's 3 more mp/tick than he would have in a lot of his parties pre-ToAU.

Also there's dancer and /dnc with aspir samba which alleviates a lot of the healing and mp regeneration.
#6 Mar 13 2009 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also there's dancer and /dnc with aspir samba which alleviates a lot of the healing and mp regeneration.


Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/
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#7 Mar 13 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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carlcarl wrote:
People are defiantly spoiled now. Before updates, ToAU and new gear, there were a lot of parties that we didn't have red mage. We still did it with resting.


FTFY

Also, **** kids, lawn, etc. etc.

brb Ensure
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#8 Mar 13 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I may throw in my pld opinion. As a galka, I have very little mp, enough for maybe 3 cure IIIs and a flash or reprisal(this is 68, 54 was even worse, and I have 2 mp merits) Yea, we're a bit spoiled as far as refresh compared to the plds of old(I leveled to 50 before the '05 price hike) I can manage without refresh, but I make it clear to my parties that there's no way I'll hold hate as well as I could with refresh, since the DDs these days are retarded(GO GO WS before the pld vokes!) and most healers don't give me the chance to cure for hate even when I do have refresh.

I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying that you should consider both sides before you jump down a tank's throat. I love schs as main healers, phalanx is tits. Also, don't give me that darkstaff ********* I carry one around with me, but the only time I ever get a chance to use it is if someone goes afk or if there are too many parties at a camp, otherwise the pulls come in faster than I could switch to the staff, kneel for a tick or two, and get up. This also costs me my TP, and that costs me a Vorpal Blade(DD pld, not a turtle) which is annoying.

I will admit though, there are a lot of primadona plds and nins, but at 54 on birds? It's totally fair for them to expect haste/refresh, because that's over camping, and they're not gonna be able to stay alive/keep hate nearly as well w/o the buffs.
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#9 Mar 13 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 9:19am by scchan
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#10 Mar 13 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:
Frankly speaking, a NIN that not willing to main tank after 37 should be warning sign that is going to be bad. You should post what gear the THF was wearing :P (it is not too difficult to do 1k+ on DE at a rather low level on birds Smiley: glare)


Yeah... I know... I was reliably dumping 1-1.2k SADEs or TADEs when I leveled THF through this part. When I didn't stack *more often than stacked* I would deal 700-800 DEs... so this was a failTHF.
#11 Mar 13 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:
Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 9:19am by scchan
you can aspir any mob that is a job that can use mp. Colibris are rdms, so they're aspirable.(Imps and worms are blms, beetles and crabs are plds, there are some NM exceptions, but for regular mobs, this stands true)
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Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#12 Mar 13 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.


Yeah, I'm aware that mobs need MP to make Aspir Samba useful. Sorry, didn't make myself clear in my last post - I was replying to the OP as they specifically mentioned crabs and colibri; both of which have MP that can be Aspired.

My point was that there are still a large number of turtle-tank PLDs out there (at least in my experience). Aspir Samba is only worthwhile if the ones using MP can hit the mob and deal enough damage to get a decent return. It's a Refresh option most certainly; the problem is that it requires the frontline to have decent accuracy at the very least. In that sense, it's not a direct MP-gaining device, like Refresh or Ballad, so it demands more from the PLD.

A PLD's MP pool is their hate tool. I can sympathise with a PLD demanding Refresh for this purpose (especially if the party is overcamping). And in this day-and-age, the quick-chain style of partying means that a PLD has little, if any, time to recover significant chunks of that MP back. This can make a party particularly messy if the set-up still calls for a legitimate tank. It's certainly not necessary; a SCH has the tools to keep up with the healing, but I can understand why having a direct source is preferable.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 10:29am by Secretkeeper
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#13 Mar 14 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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A lvl54 PLD without refresh against Lesser Colibri will not die but tank **** and the party will run out of mp after 2 mobs.
A lvl54 NIN without haste against Lesser Colibri will tank **** and mostly die.
At those lvl, the NIN will lose all his shadows in a few sec (even fewer if hit by Pecking Furry), will never manage to recast utsusemi: ichi and then blood tank. Unless there is a BRD to elegy.

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#14 Mar 14 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have you ever tried tanking colibri without the ability to have haste and have them elegied and slowed every fight? If you haven't, then you can't say **** about a NIN QQing about not having haste, because on those birds it's the difference between life and dead, especially when overhunting at 54.
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#15 Mar 14 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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I've been on both sides of this equation, having NIN and PLD at 75, and SCH at 63.

And I've seen spoiled tanks, rotten mages, and retarded DDs.

Basically, Refresh and Haste DO make things easier, but you can quite easily live without them.

One flaw I DO see is that, at 54, you're overhunting to fight Colibri, and Colibri are NOT fun things for a tank when you're overhunting. You can't use food, they can strip shadows rapidly, they're distressingly accurate, and they're highly resistant to debuffs.

Honestly, you could have chained crabs for better XP and less downtime, and been far less hard on your tank.

Still that would have been true WITH OR WITHOUT Haste or Refresh.

There is a lot of people who take something that is a GOOD IDEA, and make it a REQUIREMENT, then will spend a completely retarded amount of time rabidly trying to ensure their XP parties have all these elements.

For instance, I once saw a RDM shouting in Whitegate, asking for two people who had BRD to stop what they were doing and come merit with him. He even said in his shout that DD's and tanks were outright irrelevant. He got some heckle spam for his shouts, and called those who did so 'noobs'. Apparently he had gotten a lot of invites and was sick of 'sub-par' XP parties.

Two hours later, when I returned to Whitegate, he was still shouting, though he had managed to find a bard.

A decent XP party could have earned 30k in 2 hours without 2 BRDs and a RDM. ****, a CRUMMY party could have.

So, even once he got the party setup he was demanding together, he would need minimum of an hour of XP to make up for the time he wasted shouting for it, assuming he found a BRD right away. That's ASSUMING his chosen camp (Birds most likely) wasn't already occupied, and they had free access to all the mobs. Given this was prime time playing time, I seriously doubt it was.

I could see a tank being reluctant to fight colibris at that level. But being reluctant to tank because of a luxury like Refresh? Blech.

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#16 Mar 15 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spoiled tanks, spoiled Bards, spoiled Red Mages...

Unfortunately the number of "spoiled" players goes across the board. Unless you have a very specific party setup it's hard to find players who actually want to team. Sadly, all the days of TP burns has rotted the common sense node of the 'elite' player's brain. Nowadays if you don't have Refresh/Haste/1500+ damage/ZOMG megabuffs, then they're not interested.

I had one guy practically beg me to join his party, then get ****** off because Scholar doesn't have Haste (for some reason he thought we did) and ditched. No one died, we had decent kills, Phalanx/Stoneskin meant hardly any damage taken, but for some reason he just couldn't bear to live without Haste. Pfft, amateurs...

In my day we never had all this fancy crap. WHM was conisidered THE healer, and we used to take mobs which would scare the living crap out of players these days. Remember Rams in Lufaise Meadows? Great Bleat used to take your tanks health to a mere slither by reducing his max HP to something crazily puny. Back then it was about skill. Being able to erase/cure before your paladin takes another hit is something I was immensely proud of.

Or how about weapons in Sky? Healing in a magic aggro zone filled with unfriendies? How about bones parties in KRT? If someone needed a Raise they'd aggro half the cavern on their way back to conciousness! Yeah, I played during the good old days when people actually needed to be good at their jobs. So these spoiled newcomers can kiss my Argute Pants...

/em shakes a stick and moans about those damned kids...

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 4:14am by Crystan
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#17 Mar 15 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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What about the Processionaire's camp? Or the Bibiki Bay Gob camps?

I think most of the mages these days would have a fit fighting Toramas...

Those days are long gone... And with them a lot of really great players. My wife and my stepdaughter are often saying how good I am at my jobs... I had no choice, in the day, levelwhoring took skill. Now, I can put the controller down on auto-attack/resting and come back to the screen whenever honestly.

I was watching T.V. during my last birds party in East Ronfaure [S]...
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#18 Mar 15 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not 2004 anymore. The "BACK IN MY DAY" argument doesn't fly, sorry. The simple fact is, a PLD performs far better with refresh, and a NIN performs far far better with haste. How well the tank performs is a good barometer of how well the party is doing in many cases - if he can't hold hate, the DDs pull hate and sponge MP. If he's out of MP, the party has to stop to let him rest it back.

Yes, a PLD can tank without refresh, and a NIN can tank without haste - just like a SCH can mainheal without Sublimation or using any strategems. But why? It's horribly inefficient compared to the alternative. I'm sure he's experienced plenty of parties with no refresh, and they most likely all sucked, so he doesn't want to experience that frustration anymore.

"Crap XP is better than no XP" may be true to a small extent, but a lot of us have better things to do with our time and attention than waste them on a fail party. Your party sounds like it was set up to fail (no haste, no refresh, overcamping on birds where most people don't even use food to make up for the overcamping), so he probably recognized that and went back to whatever he was doing while seeking party, hoping for a better setup.

Edit: And lol @ nostalgia goggles, players sucked harder back in the day than they do now. Skillchaining never required talent - you auto-attacked to 100 TP, then waited for your partner to get 100 TP, then you hit your WS macro and went back to auto-attacking. If anything, pure TP burning requires more attention because you WS right at 100 TP, and DD are expected to help tank when they pull hate. More often than not you got a healer who was lazy and just waited til the Torama died to Paralyna/Silena you, or you got an idiot who couldn't time his WS properly and messed up the SC. There's a reason SC+MB is dead in XP parties and it's not just XP/hour or laziness.

It's a much different game now. The last 50% of the mob's life doesn't disappear from a light SC + AM or aga3 MB anymore. The tank is expected to hold hate from 100-0 off of DDs that are spamming WSes, and it just doesn't happen with 60 mp/minute (trait+parade+sanction), not on mobs like birds. Exacerbate that by the fact that birds stop tanks from using food, and the fact that you were trying to fight them at IT+++ levels that way, and I can sympathize a lot with that guy for wanting to get out. I can already tell you how your party would have gone:

-Tank can't hold hate - nin can't keep shadows up because IT++ mob never misses and colibri have low delay, or PLD loses hate easily from getting hit so hard on an overcamp mob and no mp to cure himself with

-DDs pull hate early in fight and tank it from 100-0...with only utsu:ichi, and a 30 second recast due to lack of haste. Can't put shadows back up once they are down because of interrupts, blood tanking til another DD pulls hate and starts blood tanking

-You run out of mp @chain 2 or chain 3 and have to rest

-Eventually someone force DCs, someone else makes an excuse to leave and puts their flag back up

-Either you find some replacements and start back at part 1, or you can't find replacements and party breaks

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 10:38pm by Drexis
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#19 Mar 15 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to get to the heart of the matter, consider this:

*****, complain, and blame, everyone but yourself.
I can't even think of a reason the word party still exists in FFXI.
Real parties are actual TEAMS, as in people who actually WORK TOGEATHER.
What the OP discribes isn't a team, its a sad example of what FFXI has become.

Your "party" made no attempt to accomidate to its member's strengths and weaknesses.
Today's "parties" are little more than demanding groups that outright refuse accomidating to its members, instead everyone must accomidate to accepted practices.
Rather than picking an enemy that suits your level and party setup, they simpily refuse to ever consider their strengths and limitations, and how best to use these strengths/shore up weaknesses to accomplish your goals.

In short, parties don't function as a team.
But why should we, after all; it's not like we play with actual people.
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#20 Mar 15 2009 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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I bet that at level 54 your Ninja would have died in the first 5 fights, with or without haste. Level 57-58, with SH, is when a Ninja shines on these.

Pally would live with proper support, but EXP would be too slow. The shield starts some blocking at level 57.

Aht Urghan is MINIMUM level 55. And even then it's pushing it.

And no, it is not better than the alternative (crabs) if you can dispel their defense buff.

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#21 Mar 16 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup, Assassin Reject wrote:
What about the Processionaire's camp? Or the Bibiki Bay Gob camps?

I think most of the mages these days would have a fit fighting Toramas...

Those days are long gone... And with them a lot of really great players. My wife and my stepdaughter are often saying how good I am at my jobs... I had no choice, in the day, levelwhoring took skill. Now, I can put the controller down on auto-attack/resting and come back to the screen whenever honestly.

I was watching T.V. during my last birds party in East Ronfaure [S]...


I know I'm gonna sound like an old man... but those days were great... I loved leveling my WHM on toramas. I prided myself on the fact that no tank I PT'd w/ ever had a single "XXX is paralyzed." or was restricted once by a silence effect. I don't really even think it took "skill" so much as common sense and a decent attention span.
#22 Mar 16 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a 75 pld and 48 nin (both levelled to those levels in 2006, neither have been levelled since I've returned from a 2 year break, though I've used them both a lot), I can say that I probably would have stuck around on pld, but on nin, would have pressed a different camp, and had that not worked, left.

Justification:
Pld: As others have said, sanction + auto + parade (as long as you're above 85%) does equal 3/tick, and if you're ddpld'ing it, you don't have to cure as much, so... doable. Not the greatest, nor the most fun, but I can see it.

Nin: Admittedly, I'm not the world's greatest blink tank. I'm not bad, but I'm not "omgwtfpwn that nin didnt get hit once in 6 hours" good at it either (2006 was the last time I played, I know, it doesnt work like that anymore) However, birds can be really mean, and, well, going backwards in xp and paying a fair amount of gil to do it is just silly.

Caveat: I would've at least stuck around long enough to try to make something work. "What no <blah>?" and dropping pt is just asinine.

Quote:
And no, it is not better than the alternative (crabs) if you can dispel their defense buff.

^This. If your rdm is good, scissor guard is essentially a free paralyze proc.

Last of all, I agree with the "these damned kids" statements. Toramas, Cato's, Gobs in Bibiki Bay, etc, were some of my favorite things to xp on. I know the /thf days are over b/c it's less efficient, but managing hate right on the line so the light sc could go off perfectly made the grind of xp bearable. ToAU xp to me is practically the same as beating on walls in campaign.

Anyway, my (longwinded as always) 2c.

~Cwellan
#23 Mar 16 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know I'm gonna sound like an old man... but those days were great... I loved leveling my WHM on toramas. I prided myself on the fact that no tank I PT'd w/ ever had a single "XXX is paralyzed." or was restricted once by a silence effect. I don't really even think it took "skill" so much as common sense and a decent attention span.


Torama is one of the best test of healer skill.

While I am not objecting reducing exp to 75, I am not in a favor in making the game too easy -- faster, good; easier, bad. Imps and Colibiri are mistakes. But the bad news is, a lot of fans wanted them. People wanted that bloody I-can-watch-TV-and-get-exp. Smiley: rolleyes
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#24 Mar 16 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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If your overhunting birds at 54, I suggest you do the birds (Marsh Murre) in Caedarva Mire. The camps are West and East zones from Nashmau. 15min boat ride from Whitegate or 5 minutes run from Azouph Isle Staging Point.

The birds here do not steal food, unlike colibri. Birds here have frontal aoe move which does wind dmg. A single hard hit tp move but nowhere near as deadly as pecking fury. So if the DD stand away from the tank, aoe shouldn't be a problem at all. However I dont suggest going with less than 2 mages because at 54, mobs will hit hard regardless.

A few successful PT's I've had at 54 here included a SCH or two..

PLD, THF/nin, MNK/nin, RNG/nin, SCH, WHM (was awkward setup but managed to pull off good sata's and skillchains)

NIN, DRG/nin, WAR/nin(gaxe), THF/nin, DNC, SCH

NIN, MNK/nin, THF/nin, WAR/nin(gaxe), SCH, SCH (accession enspell 1-15dmg pretty good for dual wielders and h2h)

Chain 4 on avg. Occasional 5's. I got about 6-8k/hr with these pt i've had. It's not tp burn exp but still much better than crabs and is a good alternative to colibri at 54. You will need a competent party to do well here. As I have also had nightmare pt's in this camp at 54.





Edited, Mar 16th 2009 12:50pm by RandomLurker
#25 Mar 16 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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If people want to cry about bad parties then they need to go do coeurls in labarynth at level 60 with no brd and no sushi.

god **** those were the days.
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http://sizedd.freeforums.org/

Quote a few months before the mass salvage banning:
couerlmaster wrote:
And stfu with the banstick, this is hardly traceable and so widespread throughout the EG community there's nothing SE can do w/o banning half the EG community on every server


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O8qb58bHY
#26 Mar 16 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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"Darkdoom" wrote:
Have you ever tried tanking colibri without the ability to have haste and have them elegied and slowed every fight? If you haven't, then you can't say sh*t about a NIN QQing about not having haste, because on those birds it's the difference between life and dead, especially when overhunting at 54.
What this guy said. At that level to keep hate you *must* be DDing at your best (which is hard in eva gear), or spamming elemental Ninjutsu (but at that level, it's about the same either way). Point is, without Haste you can expect us to either wear eva gear in an effort to preserve some shadows, which let's the mob go everywhere, or we can DD and do our best to hold hate then die when a stray pecking flurry comes in when shadows are down. Haste is even more critical when you're fighting the later colibri versions, as they reflect enfeebles, ruling out NIN slow/blind/para.

This is why I as a 75 NIN and 50 SCH, let everyone know as soon as they attempt to invite me that I have no haste or refresh. Maybe you should notify your party leaders of what you can't do before you get invited, so they can take measures to compensate for that before getting a tank? SCH still isn't a well known job in terms of what it can do, do your job to educate people as they try to invite you.
#27 Mar 16 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty funny about EXPing jobs. I don't enjoy partying with people I don't know. I really only make an exception for merits. Otherwise I solo, small group or level with friends only. Just my thing, EXP isn't fun for me unless I do it with friends. I'd rather solo, Valor or Campaign my 2-4k/hr EXP by myself then I would party with strangers.

Having said that, our LS quite frequently puts once a week EXP statics together so we can all level and have a good time. We are extra picky about our party set up because we want a set up that will take us from 37-75 and be strong doing so. Since we only meet once a week, we make sure our set up allows us to maximize our EXP/hr.

Previous set ups we've used include:

PLD, DRK, RNG, COR, BRD, RDM

NIN, SAM, WAR, COR, BRD, RDM

NIN, WAR, THF, COR, BRD, WHM

PLD, SAM, DRK, COR, BRD, RDM

I realize these are all very strong set ups and not something most pick up groups will encounter (and yes, we always static with COR, BRD and RDM or WHM). I just want to clarify that ToAU is not a minimum of level 55. We always start on Lesser Colibri at level 52 and we average 10k/hr (no band) from 52-55. You can't do that on Crabs.

I'm not getting into the whole "old-school, spoiled, etc." debate. Just wanted to clarify that ToAU can be done as early as level 52, in my experience, with the proper set ups. So if you have a strong set up, don't be afraid to try it. It's only overcamping if aren't build for it.
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#28 Mar 16 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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No refresh pld means trouble holding hate, possibly excess damage from DDs pulling hate. Good thing sch has all those tools to cover the extra damage taken! A pld without refresh endangers the other party members significantly more than himself, therefore it is more important that the party knows this than the pld.

A hasteless nin on the other hand is significantly more of an issue. As a taru nin I wouldn't want to camp on the low end without haste because I would die, often. Peckling flurry could completely stomp my hp and at 54 I'ld barely be evading as it is. I can understand the nin declining certain setups because he could realistically die very quickly. That being said, if there was a competent war/nin or sam/war it could easily work out well.
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#29 Mar 16 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Edit: And lol @ nostalgia goggles, players sucked harder back in the day than they do now. Skillchaining never required talent - you auto-attacked to 100 TP, then waited for your partner to get 100 TP, then you hit your WS macro and went back to auto-attacking. If anything, pure TP burning requires more attention because you WS right at 100 TP, and DD are expected to help tank when they pull hate.
Right, so there's no skill in timing a weaponskill or knowing how to pull the thing off in the first place, but there is skill in bashing your insta weaponskill button everytime you hit 100% TP?

And DD's expected to tank? No, they just take hits and expect the healer to take up the slack. They don't TANK, they just get smacked in the teeth. That's like saying a WHM tanks when they dump a Divine Seal Curaga IV in the midst of a fight. They're not really intending to tank, they're just the receiving the punishment they deserve. None of these guys is equipped to take hits, not a SINGLE one. So exactly how can you say there's any skill in letting a monster chew your face off?

Quote:
t's not 2004 anymore. The "BACK IN MY DAY" argument doesn't fly, sorry. The simple fact is, a PLD performs far better with refresh, and a NIN performs far far better with haste. How well the tank performs is a good barometer of how well the party is doing in many cases - if he can't hold hate, the DDs pull hate and sponge MP. If he's out of MP, the party has to stop to let him rest it back.
Oh, I don't doubt that Paladin benefits from Refresh. That's obvious, but essential? Not a chance. Especially not now thanks to Chivalry and Auto-Refresh. Back then RDM was practically essential because PLD had absolutely NO recovery tools, now it's a luxury. Unfortunately, as my previous post will tell you, people have come to expect luxuries.

Skill is not equipment. Skill is not turning yourself into an impromptu meat shield. Skill is not hitting a weaponskill button every few seconds. And skill is definetly not having the "perfect" party. Skill is knowing your enemies and their abilities and being able to react to them. Skill is being able to maintain hate rather than attract it. Skill is being able to cure/buff/debuff/refresh/haste all of the nonchalant melee's these days and have MP left over for emergencies.

Don't talk to me about skill, I played when it meant something.
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#30 Mar 17 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Right, so there's no skill in timing a weaponskill or knowing how to pull the thing off in the first place, but there is skill in bashing your insta weaponskill button everytime you hit 100% TP?

Where did I say it took skill? I said it took more attention, because you're WSing more often (and gasp, often doing more damage). Back then, a DD who geared themselves well could do their SC, then go back to watching TV until ~200TP cause they had to wait for their gimp SC partner to catch up.

Back then, every party needed a distortion=>darkness skillchain, and a blm to MB it. The "must-have" jobs have changed, but the requirements for "the best" party will always be there, depending on the camp. MNK burns are "the best" in KRT, DRG/RNG/THF burns are "the best" at birds, 2-handed DD setups are "the best" at mamools. Also, most BLMs made a macro for their MB, that told the melee when to WS so that the SC would go off in time for the MB. Where is the skill in doing what an automated macro tells you to do, every mob, for a couple hours? Or counting to 3 in your head before hitting your WS macro, in not-ancient-magic situations? Preschool r hard.

Sit Crystan wrote:

And DD's expected to tank? No, they just take hits and expect the healer to take up the slack. They don't TANK, they just get smacked in the teeth. That's like saying a WHM tanks when they dump a Divine Seal Curaga IV in the midst of a fight. They're not really intending to tank, they're just the receiving the punishment they deserve. None of these guys is equipped to take hits, not a SINGLE one. So exactly how can you say there's any skill in letting a monster chew your face off?

I'm sorry that you don't seem to party with anyone decent, but comparing good players from "back then" with dumb players of today isn't making a fair argument. There are plenty of competent players today, and there were plenty of terrible people who couldn't do anything right back then.

"Gear to tank"? Are you kidding? Please point me to this tanking gear that DDs can wear, especially in the 50s and 60s, because even paladins don't gear to tank anymore except on HNM/endgame fights. SE botched up their damage formulas with regards to VIT and DEF, to the point where if you don't have shadows or shield mastery, you can't properly mitigate damage no matter how good your gear is. Have you ever seen a 75 WAR/MNK in full koenig armor and vit rings tank? You know how much damage they take compared to a WAR/NIN in haste gear? A **** of a lot more.

Sir Crystan wrote:
Oh, I don't doubt that Paladin benefits from Refresh. That's obvious, but essential? Not a chance. Especially not now thanks to Chivalry and Auto-Refresh. Back then RDM was practically essential because PLD had absolutely NO recovery tools, now it's a luxury. Unfortunately, as my previous post will tell you, people have come to expect luxuries.

It's more essential than ever, because now each DD is doing more damage, and therefore pulling more hate. As I said, in the SC+MB parties, DDs were holding back their individual damage for the sake of one SC+MB that would finish the mob off. They stacked all their enmity on at the very end of the fight, when it didn't matter because the mob was about to die anyway. Now, they build their hate constantly, WSing as soon as they have TP for the sake of faster chains (and yes, faster XP). If you expect a PLD to tank for more than 10 seconds a fight in XP parties, you HAVE to give them refresh, or they just became an occasional backup healer that does some damage, too.

There other ways to get refresh without a RDM, too. BRDs can do it. CORs can do it. DNCs can kind of do it, if you aren't drastically overcamping. SE even had a flash of brilliance and made Aspir Samba subbable, so a /DNC can refresh a party's tank and melee (like BLU or DRK) if you really can't find one.

If this party had gone to crabs it would have been a great setup, since Aspir Samba would work, it had Dispel, and the melee could actually hit the mob. Whose fault is it that the party failed, if the party failed because the leader chose the wrong camp for the given setup?

Chivalry is a meritable ability btw, this level 54 PLD didn't have it. And auto-refresh is only 1/tic, 20 mp/minute isn't even an extra flash. It helps, but it's nowhere near enough on its own. With parade gorget, sanction, and auto-refresh it's still something, but the hate demands have gone up in XP (hence my "it's not 2004 anymore"), so if you want a designated tank, you need to supply that demand for them to function in their role.

Sir Crystan wrote:
Skill is not equipment. Skill is not turning yourself into an impromptu meat shield. Skill is not hitting a weaponskill button every few seconds. And skill is definetly not having the "perfect" party. Skill is knowing your enemies and their abilities and being able to react to them. Skill is being able to maintain hate rather than attract it. Skill is being able to cure/buff/debuff/refresh/haste all of the nonchalant melee's these days and have MP left over for emergencies.

Skill is setting up a party strategically. Grabbing a PLD tank with no refresh, no THF to at least help plant hate on them, 3 random DDs, and a couple healers isn't strategic, it's desperate for a couple hours XP before work. It also isn't especially fun for the tank, it's irritating trying to hold hate without the proper support to back you up.

Believe it or not, fun is important too, and I can safely say from many fail parties that the tank is always the first to get blamed when the XP is bad (see: this post). If your party isn't going too smoothly, instead of just lashing out at the tank (or the healer, as is sometimes the case), why not just go to a better camp that fits your setup better?

The setup was poor, the camp choice was poor, the communication was poor, and the result was poor. There was no skill involved in forming, leading, or maintaining the party in the OP. The OP then came to the forum and immediately blamed the tank, as many party leads do. Maybe this is the reason tanks want a good setup before they will even consider XPing in the first place. Did it occur to you that maybe the tank wants to have fun too? It's hard to have fun when the leader sets up a party that doesn't even support you properly, and he's probably had that hassle laid on him enough times before to see the writing on the wall and get out early.

If you want a PLD to tank with no refresh or a NIN to tank with no haste, you need a THF (or 60+, at least a /THF) to put hate on them. This is even worse when you are overcamping, like going to colibri at 54, because the NIN is never going to evade a mob that much higher level than them, and a PLD is going to be getting hit for a lot more damage than they would be at say, 57 or so.

Sir Crystan wrote:
Don't talk to me about skill, I played when it meant something.

Cute. I still play, and it still means something. Maybe you should find a linkshell with some skilled players in it and play with them. That's what I did, and they exist on every server. In fact, I found a few LSes like that, and only one of them is in endgame. The rest are just friends that know what they're doing and like to XP.

Think of all the buffs DDs have received in the past few years. The two-handed update, hasso from /SAM, new foods like marinara pizza and crab sushi (letting people eat sushi at birds for cheap), buffs to penta-thrust/sam WSes/raging rush, are just some of the more recent ones. Colibri aint robber crabs, and puks/imps aint steelshells when it comes to defense, either. Tanks have to compensate for every buff that DDs get, and auto-refresh and shield mastery are great, but they don't measure up to 10% haste and +10% acc on every melee, or WSes suddenly doing 200ish more damage. No one in a party should have to do their job alone, that's the whole point of having 5 other people in the party.


Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:29pm by Drexis

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:55pm by Drexis
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#31 Mar 18 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Default
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No Refresh for a SCH = who cares. No refresh for a PLD = crybaby PLD.

No Haste for a melee = no epeen. No haste for a NIN = crybaby NIN.
=========================


Wtf ?
if the guy can cast refresh or haste....

Why you would not do it on the pld or the nin ?

That will soo simplify their life and their job.

Too many time, I see rdm or whm dont even cast haste on my nin while I came to help them in a exp party(level sync). How hard it's do to that... gosh...


or Lazy Sch that dont want to aoe-regen before he think regen is overrated when the mob can do some aoe.. tk..
#32 Mar 20 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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I just got out of a 54-55 pink chicken party at the leypoint.

PLD
WAR
DNC
SMN
WHM
BLM

Not what many would call a "prime" party make up.

I was the PLD. I have -4 enmity merits and was not using a high breath mantle. We were doing chain 4 - chain 5 doing Crescent Fang > Rampage for Distortion then a MB Freeze in the 1000-1100 range for the kill.

It was lead by the BLM starting and calling the Skillchain with a timed Freeze cast. Is textbook old skule and it worked very nicely. No one died or even came close for that matter.

A huge plus was that the puller was working the chain timer which gave me plenty of mp between mobs to keep the hate firmly planted on me and still get to the nice chain 5 xp goodness. And on the few occasions where I lost hate, I covered. Aspir Samba was not effective at this level. I would rest with Ginger cookies and Pluto's. I held hate more so with cures and my /ja's than with damage dealt.

No solo stars, just 6 people working as a team for the greater good. I personally think that not just tanks need to be in parties that are less than the "ideal" party so that we all can better learn how to deal with things when conditions are not "perfect". I think it makes for better players come endgame.

Bottom-line...if you work at it as a team, it will work out fine.
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#33Banggugyangu, Posted: Mar 21 2009 at 9:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) with this setup, I would be surprised if you would even reach 8k/hr. Whereas swapping the SMN and BLM for 2 melees would easily give you 14-15k/hr on the same mobs. Working chain timers is great for getting up to chain 5 regularly, but doesn't mean you're getting more EXP.
#34 Mar 22 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm sorry that you don't seem to party with anyone decent, but comparing good players from "back then" with dumb players of today isn't making a fair argument. There are plenty of competent players today, and there were plenty of terrible people who couldn't do anything right back then.

"Gear to tank"? Are you kidding? Please point me to this tanking gear that DDs can wear, especially in the 50s and 60s, because even paladins don't gear to tank anymore except on HNM/endgame fights. SE botched up their damage formulas with regards to VIT and DEF, to the point where if you don't have shadows or shield mastery, you can't properly mitigate damage no matter how good your gear is. Have you ever seen a 75 WAR/MNK in full koenig armor and vit rings tank? You know how much damage they take compared to a WAR/NIN in haste gear? A **** of a lot more.

You've really only strengthened my point. Lack of defense gear means you're not doing anything to help mitigate damage. All you're doing is becoming an MP sponge for your overworked mages. It's like saying "Hey, I can get punched in the face and it's okay, because I call it 'Tanking'". Trying to excuse the absolute non-existant hate control by splitting the damage amongst all of your party members is just not in the least bit skillful, sorry.

The reason no one tanks is because EVERYONE gears for damage dealing, and EVERYONE is out to hit for the biggest e-peen figures they can. It's impossible to tank properly against melee's going balls-to-the-walls on their attacks which means after virtually every weaponskill a new player has the mobs attention. It's not functionally bad, because mobs don't live very long, but skillful? P--lease.

Quote:
If you expect a PLD to tank for more than 10 seconds a fight in XP parties, you HAVE to give them refresh, or they just became an occasional backup healer that does some damage, too.
Welcome to 2009. Paladin's don't really tank anymore at endgame. Even taking Refresh into consideration, I rarely see Paladins dip below 50% MP these days, and that's only when they've been the unfortunate target of a multiple pull. Like I said, there's a LOT of other ways for Paladin's to regain MP. There never used to be, which meant Refresh was far more lucrative pre-ToAU. Of course, trying to find a Paladin willing to sacrifice his precious (weak) weaponskill for a large MP bonus through Chivalry might prove difficult.

Quote:
Skill is setting up a party strategically.

This I agree with, though our definition of "strategy" seems to differ quite wildly.

Quote:
Grabbing a PLD tank with no refresh, no THF to at least help plant hate on them, 3 random DDs, and a couple healers isn't strategic, it's desperate for a couple hours XP before work. It also isn't especially fun for the tank, it's irritating trying to hold hate without the proper support to back you up.

A little tidbit for you. I've played with some good players and I've played with some great players. In one such party, we had a far less than ideal party setup. No Refresh, just myself as the only mage which meant no Bard. A Thief puller, Paladin tank and a smattering of melee DDs like Samurai and DRG. Our Paladin was good. No, our Paladin was exceptional. He barely needed to dent his MP because the Stoneskin/Phalanx combination made damage laughable. My cures consisted largely of the occasional Regen II to top him up rather than needing big Cure IV's or even worrying about Rapture! I had so much MP I didn't know what to do with it all, so I spent it largely on buffs.

But what made that Paladin even more noteable was that he never once complained about the lack of Refresh. We we chaining Colibri at a rate of knots, thanks to our strong DD presence and while hate-keeping went right out the window by the time a mob was at 50%, the bird was barely alive long enough for it to matter.

Refresh is, always has been, always will be a luxury. The simple fact is there are so many refresh methods out there which don't involve spellcasting that it's no longer the great "must have" that it used to be. ToAU gives Refresh. Paladin's get Auto-Refresh (that's already 2mp/tick), Parade Gorget gives Refresh, Chivalry gives (a lot of) MP. These are all FREE ways to recover your MP. Even WHM's have Sublimation (or should have if they're worth their salt) as well as Auto-Refresh armours.

You can argue this every which way, but it's too easy to recover MP these days. Save your Refresh arguments for the ones who need it more, like Blue Mages or Summoners.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2009 4:38am by Crystan
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#35 Mar 22 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Drexis wrote:
SE botched up their damage formulas with regards to VIT and DEF, to the point where if you don't have shadows or shield mastery, you can't properly mitigate damage no matter how good your gear is.


Sad, but true. ;_;

Crystan wrote:
We we chaining Colibri at a rate of knots, thanks to our strong DD presence and while hate-keeping went right out the window by the time a mob was at 50%, the bird was barely alive long enough for it to matter.


With Refresh, the PLD may actually keep Hate better. Spamming Cure on yourself and those getting hit actually helps shift Hate back to the PLD.

What you have highlighted is the point Drexis is trying to make. Since VIT/DEF is broken, gearing for VIT/Def may not actually help that much. Gearing for DD, on the other hand, helps PLDs maintain some Hate and it contributes to helping the PT as a whole to kill off the mobs faster (so that mobs will not be alive long for it to matter).


Crystan wrote:
Welcome to 2009. Paladin's don't really tank anymore at endgame.


I beg your pardon?

Many LSes including mine still uses PLDs at Endgame (other than Dynamis and Salvage). Of the 3 types of Endgame Tanks that we use, namely PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN, Refresh is still a must.
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#36 Mar 22 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Welcome to 2009. Paladin's don't really tank anymore at endgame.


Really now? I think you mean.......

Quote:
Welcome to 2009. Paladin's don't really tank anymore in in merits at ToAU camps.


Edited, Mar 22nd 2009 5:35pm by SparthosofLakshmi
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#37 Mar 24 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Halflight wrote:
Crystan wrote:
We we chaining Colibri at a rate of knots, thanks to our strong DD presence and while hate-keeping went right out the window by the time a mob was at 50%, the bird was barely alive long enough for it to matter.


With Refresh, the PLD may actually keep Hate better. Spamming Cure on yourself and those getting hit actually helps shift Hate back to the PLD.


You should also note that Crystan said that with the Stoneskin/Phalanx combo, that the damage was laughable; and since it hits everyone, the DD's also get it, which can help reduce their damage, so at 50%, losing hate, but severly reducing the time that you spend fighting it, can be acceptable.



Halflight wrote:
What you have highlighted is the point Drexis is trying to make. Since VIT/DEF is broken, gearing for VIT/Def may not actually help that much. Gearing for DD, on the other hand, helps PLDs maintain some Hate and it contributes to helping the PT as a whole to kill off the mobs faster (so that mobs will not be alive long for it to matter).


You can't gear towards parry/shield skill and mitigate damage that way?
Althought that's better discussed in the PLD forums...
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#38 Mar 26 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd just like to chime in and say:

DNC/WAR tank needs neither Refresh nor Haste.

=D
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#39 Mar 27 2009 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I realize these are all very strong set ups and not something most pick up groups will encounter (and yes, we always static with COR, BRD and RDM or WHM). I just want to clarify that ToAU is not a minimum of level 55. We always start on Lesser Colibri at level 52 and we average 10k/hr (no band) from 52-55. You can't do that on Crabs.


Hmmm... 10k/hr? You say you can't do that on crabs. 2BLM/BRD/RDM/NIN/THF(orSAM) can pull that off. Since you already started on optimal party set ups, lay off the **** melee mentality, think of the optimal PT setup for crabs, which due to their high defense, is magic (do you use magic vs. pink birds? lol). Only difference between your example and mine, is that to pull that SC+doubleMB (or maybe even just one), while staying on top of the refreshes, hastes, ballads and dispels, takes much more skill than your "optimal party" beating on pink birds, since most of the time it also includes the NIN using ele wheel to keep hate+damage, stopping to cast Huton just before the Big Tamale, and the BRD using Threnody (most bards these days don't even HAVE Threnodies).

Also, worth noticing that a static is much more organized than a random pickup group, and more open to critiscism (yay for people getting all worked up over simple suggestions and leaving party). Yes of course things can and will go bad if the mob does not die, just as it will go bad for a tank getting 2 Pecking Flurries at level 52.

And BTW, one day I was bored so I made an all-Tarutaru Party. Ended up being level 60. I had a BRD/COR at Mount Z., level 59-60ish vs. Wootzshells (because Puks suck). 1 BLM. 15k/hr. 300-400 exp a pop. Yes, this was a pickup group. You just need competent people.

In the other hand, any half assed 3 melees with a bard and a cor can do what you did, 52 and all the way to merits.

In conclusion, just because you haven't done it, doesn't mean it's not doable. I just wanted to clarify that.

Edited, Mar 27th 2009 5:52am by Cigarman
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#40 Mar 27 2009 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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think of the optimal PT setup for crabs


There is a reason people don't EXP on crabs anymore - they aren't optimal anymore. People want to be efficient with their time. Why walk when you can ride a bike? Sure, you'll eventually get there regardless, but it's much faster to ride a bike. Don't blame players for being smart with the options available.

Quote:
Hmmm... 10k/hr? You say you can't do that on crabs.


You can't do that on crabs from 52-55.
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#41 Mar 27 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't tank on NIN without Haste. I'm sorry if that makes me a "crybaby NIN," but I like to have shorter recast times on Utsusemi.

On PLD, I'll tank without Refresh. The problem is that most PLDs get used to having Refresh and how it allows you to spam your spells more often. Without Refresh, you actually have to pay attention, and let the healers do their job. Also, on colibri, the tank generally can't use food, so a PLD who is accustomed to using tank food and having Refresh is going to find himself taking more damage than he's used to and not being able to keep up with curing it all.

In the end, it's not really that much different from the "princess BRD" thing. PLD and NIN are picky because they can be. They can pass on your party because it doesn't have Refresh or Haste and find one that does. It may be an unpopular statement, but they really don't owe it to you to EXP with you if they don't like the setup.
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#42 Mar 29 2009 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Why do people keeping bringing up stuff like Chivalry in a thread about PLDs leveling? Chivalry is completely irrelevant in half the situations being discussed here because it requires the PLD to be 75...

As per the whole spoiled tanks argument, I totally have to agree with NINs wanting haste. I don't care if its from a WHM, RDM, SMN or even march from a BRD. I had stacked gear when i leveled NIN (both DD and evasion gear) and even full evasion merits, the best i could ever hope for in a Ni > Ichi cycle was 2 misses from a mob. And even squishy ToAU mobs like colibri have moves like pecking flurry that will hurt like **** when your shadows are down.

Maybe you like cure bombing your tanks and dd? As a healer I never did. As a tank I would feel embarrassed. And as a DD i really like not dying. Refresh/haste aren't necessary, but they go a long way to helping smooth things out from all points of view.
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#43 Mar 29 2009 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Haste does two things: 1) Lowers recast timers for spells & 2) increases attack speed correct? Ok will I be correct in saying that the majority, if not all, the NIN's (and PLD's)out there want Haste for #1, lowering of spell timers. But the DD class want Haste for #2 increasing of attack speed.

Well SCH may not get, or need Haste because of it's potential to overpower the job, but what about a different spell that will only lower spell timers. I can see that being balanced with Brd,Whm,Smn,Blu (although he can only share his haste once in a "blue moon", no pun intended) & Rdm get haste which does timers and attack speed, so give Sch a timer lowering spell.



Edited, Mar 29th 2009 9:59am by jayfly
Edit: Bard gets March which only increases attack speed: wrong info, they get a "Haste" song

Edited, Mar 29th 2009 5:25pm by jayfly
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#44 Mar 29 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Drexis wrote:
It's not 2004 anymore. The "BACK IN MY DAY" argument doesn't fly, sorry.

The "back in my day argument" flies whenever a significant amount of time has passed. You don't have to have been playing since the game's launch in 2002. As it's now 2009, it's perfectly fine to use the argument in reference to the year 2004, especially since the game has changed quite a bit since then.
#45 Mar 29 2009 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Well SCH may not get, or need Haste because of it's potential to overpower the job, but what about a different spell that will only lower spell timers. I can see that being balanced, Bard gets March which only increases attack speed, Whm,Smn,Blu (although he can only share his haste once in a "blue moon", no pun intended) & Rdm get haste which does timers and attack speed, so give Sch a timer lowering spell.


March reduces spell recast as well. It's a full on haste spell effect.
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#46 Mar 29 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
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Byxfluzba wrote:

March reduces spell recast as well. It's a full on haste spell effect.


Oops you are right, my mistake... Well make that five jobs that can "Haste". But either way I say give Sch a spell that will lower casting and recast timers but not affect attack speed.
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