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V cloak and schFollow

#1 Apr 22 2008 at 5:42 AM Rating: Decent
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is V cloak REALLY needed for sch? At 75 im having no issues keeping MP with 300 mp per sublimation. the only benefit this would will be campaign and maybe Nyzul assault w/ signets. ya 20mp a min is ok but without rdm refresh to stack on, i'm not sure its a big deal(its not always a brd around).

Give me your thoughts on it
#2 Apr 22 2008 at 5:52 AM Rating: Good
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At 68, it's something I'd like to have, but I'm not really feeling like I need it. I'm not having MP issues in parties, even w/o a BRD or RDM (or COR if I ever actually find one). It's something that's nice to have, but not 700k nice right now.
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#3 Apr 22 2008 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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For exp, you wont need it really.

from 57-72 It will be the best body armor you can wear while resting for getting your mp back up fast for less down time until you get errant/mahatma houppelande at 72.

However, once you start using scholar in events/solo/duoing on endgame things and NM's, yes, vermy is extremely useful and any scholar wanting to venture into that territory should find any means possible to get one.

At 72, I'm able to efficiently chain 3 IT mobs back to back without resting due to proper usage of vermy and sublimation. Do you "need" it? no. Will it you be able to perform to a higher standard? yes, if used properly and efficiently.
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#4 Apr 22 2008 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Equipment swap macros are your friend.

If there is ever a time where you are not casting or resting, then it's a good piece of "Standing" gear for SCH.

Also...

xXxNaobixXx wrote:
from 57-72 It will be the best body armor you can wear while resting for getting your mp back up fast for less down time until you get errant/mahatma houppelande at 72.


This.
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#5 Apr 23 2008 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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thanks for the input =)
#6 Apr 23 2008 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really, your AF hat is already giving you an extra tic of refresh with sublimation, so except for the 30 seconds in between using sublimation and activating it again(which will net you an extra 10 mp between subs). Not worth the 700k for scholar.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2008 5:38pm by Walsh
#7Strai, Posted: Apr 23 2008 at 1:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lolvcloakforsch
#8 Apr 23 2008 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Walsh wrote:
except for the 30 seconds in between using sublimation and activating it again(which will net you an extra 10 mp between subs). Not worth the 700k for scholar.


That.

If the player is using Sublimation correctly, the VCloak is really a waste of gil, the AF hat is just too good.
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#9 Apr 23 2008 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Only people who have problems in keeping up Sublimation should invest in Vcloak. Especially when you gain your Scholar's Mortarboard.

If you are looking at Mp as an issue, Vcloak would be worth it I guess. But why not use Penury/Parsimny more often. AF > Vcloak, in my opinion and some others it would seem too.
#10 Apr 23 2008 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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lolvcloakforsch


I love when ppl make these kind of comments and don't know what their talking about.


Quote:
Walsh wrote:
except for the 30 seconds in between using sublimation and activating it again(which will net you an extra 10 mp between subs). Not worth the 700k for scholar.


That.

If the player is using Sublimation correctly, the VCloak is really a waste of gil, the AF hat is just too good.



If you're going to get so involved about talking about how to use Sublimation correctly and talking about efficiency, then why not go all the way and see how even more efficient the cloak can be with it. Yes cloak while under sublimation is just as effective as using it with AF since you'll get the same amount of mp back during that time. I guarantee you that hardly a scholar in the world is always going to either have have sublimation pulling, or be in the 30 sec recast window, and nothing else. At some point or another, you're guaranteed to either have a full stock sublimation waiting to be used, or possibly neither. So I don't understand where the validity lies to say how much more effecient it is to only use sublimation with af head, yet ignore the efficiency of using vermy when not pulling HP for sublimation or waiting on recast.

There's no reason why you can't have the best of both worlds. If its just to make it easier for you to justify not wanting to spend that much gil on it, then that's fine, but don't knock down the usefulness and efficiency that can be utilized from it just because you don't want to pay for an expensive item. I would venture to say that in limbus alone, which is a fairly short timed event, i'd have gained at least an extra 200-300 mp just from vermy alone. Is that because I made poor use of sublimation? No, it's because I made the best use of both of them and maximized the effectiveness and efficiency of both great tools.

And again, not to mention its the best body to /heal in from 57-72 hands down.
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#11 Apr 24 2008 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, after lv56 with a /WHM sub, or lv68 with a /RDM sub, you can rest with Sublimation charging as long as you have Stoneskin up. So really its a matter of "Is 700k worth it to you for something you will only use situationally on Scholar?"
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#12 Apr 24 2008 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

If you're going to get so involved about talking about how to use Sublimation correctly and talking about efficiency, then why not go all the way and see how even more efficient the cloak can be with it. Yes cloak while under sublimation is just as effective as using it with AF since you'll get the same amount of mp back during that time. I guarantee you that hardly a scholar in the world is always going to either have have sublimation pulling, or be in the 30 sec recast window, and nothing else. At some point or another, you're guaranteed to either have a full stock sublimation waiting to be used, or possibly neither. So I don't understand where the validity lies to say how much more effecient it is to only use sublimation with af head, yet ignore the efficiency of using vermy when not pulling HP for sublimation or waiting on recast.



Your trying to put words in my mouth, never did I say it was more efficient to just use the AF hat. We all realize that you can be slightly more efficient during slow parties where you can sit on sublimation or to get that extra 10 mp between sublimation.

Quote:
There's no reason why you can't have the best of both worlds. If its just to make it easier for you to justify not wanting to spend that much gil on it, then that's fine, but don't knock down the usefulness and efficiency that can be utilized from it just because you don't want to pay for an expensive item. I would venture to say that in limbus alone, which is a fairly short timed event, i'd have gained at least an extra 200-300 mp just from vermy alone. Is that because I made poor use of sublimation? No, it's because I made the best use of both of them and maximized the effectiveness and efficiency of both great tools.

And again, not to mention its the best body to /heal in from 57-72 hands down.


Yeah, basically its only useful for when your sitting on sublimation and not going below 75% of your mp. If that sounds like you and you have a spare 700k lying around that can't be spent for anything better; than go for it; but as the OP asked "is V cloak REALLY needed for sch?", and the answer for that is no.
#13 Apr 24 2008 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
but as the OP asked "is V cloak REALLY needed for sch?", and the answer for that is no.


As such, I stated in my very first post that it's not NEEDED but will be an extremely valueable asset. To each his/her own I guess. For the things I do it is an incredibley useful piece of gear, and I'd gladly pay for it over and over again. Then again, I'm a huge stickler about being the most efficient I possibly can be.
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#14 Apr 24 2008 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
If you're going to get so involved about talking about how to use Sublimation correctly and talking about efficiency, then why not go all the way and see how even more efficient the cloak can be with it. Yes cloak while under sublimation is just as effective as using it with AF since you'll get the same amount of mp back during that time. I guarantee you that hardly a scholar in the world is always going to either have have sublimation pulling, or be in the 30 sec recast window, and nothing else. At some point or another, you're guaranteed to either have a full stock sublimation waiting to be used, or possibly neither. So I don't understand where the validity lies to say how much more effecient it is to only use sublimation with af head, yet ignore the efficiency of using vermy when not pulling HP for sublimation or waiting on recast.



I love how you don't even consider the benefits from another body piece in conjunction with the AF hat, but only compare the body with no hat, to the hat alone and still they come almost to being equal.

Edited, Apr 24th 2008 12:29pm by Strai
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#15 Apr 24 2008 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:



I love how you don't even consider the benefits from another body piece in conjunction with the AF hat, but only compare the body with no hat, to the hat alone and still they come almost to being equal.


Perhaps you could give example and further insight into what you're describing? I personally can't think of anything else more efficient than using af hat or vermy during sublimation, af, yigit, or errant/mahatma for nukes, af for enfeebs/drks, and vermy for all times otherwise.

Edited, Apr 25th 2008 6:50am by xXxNaobixXx
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#16 Apr 25 2008 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Quote:



I love how you don't even consider the benefits from another body piece in conjunction with the AF hat, but only compare the body with no hat, to the hat alone and still they come almost to being equal.


Perhaps you could give example and further insight into what you're describing? I personally can't think of anything else more effecient than using af hat or vermy during sublimation, af, yigit, or errant/mahatma for nukes, af for enfeebs/drks, and vermy for all times otherwise.



That's where vermy over the washboard hat is self defeating, once you're gear swapping the point of refresh efficiency over sublimation isn't valid anymore.
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#17 Apr 25 2008 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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That's where vermy over the washboard hat is self defeating, once you're gear swapping the point of refresh efficiency over sublimation isn't valid anymore.


I'm glad you stated this. This statement is exactly what I was afraid ppl were interpretting the use of V cloack for. The point I'm trying to get acrossed is that it is NOT used during sublimination. There's no point right? use your M.board and you get 3 per tic which is the equivilant of using 2 per tic and vermy; it kinda cancels it self out so either way you do it is just as effecient (although I prefer the hat over vermy during sublimation stocking to speed up the process, allowing to to use it more frequently). However in that scenario, makes the vermy worthless in a sense of the cost/usage ratio.

Now that that has been covered and out of the way, let's push that aside and address where I am trying to say it makes its usefulness. Now please keep in mind that this is purely based on my personal playstyle and usages of scholar. I'll use the Uggalepih Pendant NM as my first example. You're kiting an NM with a godly amount of HP, that takes 2/3's magic dmg, and kited around in a big circle. It's completely an endurance fight if you're soloing/duoing/trioing it with mages. As a scholar, and due to the mp strain it puts on you to keep going nonstop, I "can" use sublimation as quickly as its recast allows me (yes using af hat not vermy in this instance), dump to my mp pool, aspir, and continue running in vermillion cloak in between recasts. Given the use of Parsimony, the demand for dumping a full load of sublimation into my mp pool that only lacks 100-150 mp at a given time, would be wasteful. Therefore I can get that mp back via V cloak until I'm ready to unload a bunch of spells at proper timing. Then I use sublimation, (again, remphasizing that I'm using af hat during sublimation use). Once it's capped, im back to using aspir/vermy for extra mp gain until my next big unload of dmg.


2nd Scenario: Sea

In sea, my LS tries to make the most use of our members, so much as to split into smaller groups to get 3-4 times more accomplished at a single given amount of time. Because of that, you're almost constantly on the run, spending mp, and getting it back. In that situation, you don't have time to pop a squat with stoneskin on and kickin it with sublimation going. You're trying to suck up as much mp as you can, anywhere you can get it to keep yourself going nonstop (and you can do it). With the usages of sublimation, vermillion cloak, aspir, and even gathering ghrahs or aerns that are relatively close to eachother and using the very scholar friendly Manifestation > Aspir, these tools can keep you near full the entire time while never having to stop.


So again, I'm not arguing the usage of vermillion cloak while sublimation is pulling hp. Im arguing other instances when sublimation is inactive, full, or inefficient at a given time, where vermillion cloak becomes yet another great tool and asset to keep a scholar (a job designed to be all about mp efficiency) as highly mp efficient as possible.

^.^

Edit: Grammar fixes



Edited, Apr 25th 2008 10:28am by xXxNaobixXx
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#18 Apr 25 2008 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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this argument is so stupid.

AF hat - 1 more mp tic while sublimation is in effect, does nothing while sublimation is full and does nothing during the 30secs after sublimation is used

V. cloak - 1 more mp tic ALL THE TIME.

if you cant see that V. cloak is superior than naobi is right, you are trying to justify not spending the gil.

i had my V. cloak before sublimation came out, and i didnt sell it like a lot of schs did b/c most of the time sublimation is waiting to be used as a full charge. i.e. u dont activate sublimation until you drop below the mp it would recover. this does *not* mean you shouldnt rest if you have the opportunity just so you can use your fancy toy, this behavoir will have your pants down in a nasty situation.

for mp gain V. cloak is the best option, clearly. does that mean you have to farm hours on end to get it? no, you could get by being cheap but it *is* the best option.
#19 Apr 25 2008 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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XIglooX wrote:
V. cloak - 1 more mp tic ALL THE TIME. when you arn't gear swapping to make your enfeebles/helices/nukes/drain/aspirs better.

if you cant see that V. cloak is superior than naobi is right, you are trying to justify not spending the gil and not swapping gear.




Fixed.
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#20 Apr 25 2008 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
this argument is so stupid.

AF hat - 1 more mp tic while sublimation is in effect, does nothing while sublimation is full and does nothing during the 30secs after sublimation is used

V. cloak - 1 more mp tic ALL THE TIME.

if you cant see that V. cloak is superior than naobi is right, you are trying to justify not spending the gil.

i had my V. cloak before sublimation came out, and i didnt sell it like a lot of schs did b/c most of the time sublimation is waiting to be used as a full charge. i.e. u dont activate sublimation until you drop below the mp it would recover. this does *not* mean you shouldnt rest if you have the opportunity just so you can use your fancy toy, this behavoir will have your pants down in a nasty situation.


I like it when someone like xXxNaobixXx puts up an argument that has some merit(It is useful for the refresh effect if your in between and sitting on sublimation a lot but your still too busy to rest that 200 mp your missing.) And then someone comes along and takes his argument, takes out anything meaningful and adds some disdain.

Quote:
for mp gain V. cloak is the best option, clearly. does that mean you have to farm hours on end to get it? no, you could get by being cheap but it *is* the best option.


What is this cheap way of obtaining a an item worth 700k?
#21 Apr 25 2008 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
If you're going to get so involved about talking about how to use Sublimation correctly and talking about efficiency, then why not go all the way and see how even more efficient the cloak can be with it. Yes cloak while under sublimation blebleble putting words in your mouth blebleble etc...


Instead of writing a couple paragraphs saying why someone should spend 700k for an item that's situational at best, you could get some perspective on the actual question.

Quote:
is V cloak REALLY needed for sch?


The answer is "no". When Sublimation is in effect (I.E. the majority of the time), the AF hat has the exact same effect.

A VCloak for SCH is a novelty piece, no one's saying that it's not a helpful equip. If you already have the cloak from WHM, SMN, or w/e then great, but anyone who buys this just for SCH has too much gil lying around.

My statement stands true, a SCH spending 700k for a VCloak is a waste of gil if he's using Sublimation correctly.
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#22 Apr 26 2008 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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KodoReturns wrote:

Quote:
is V cloak REALLY needed for sch?


The answer is "no". When Sublimation is in effect (I.E. the majority of the time), the AF hat has the exact same effect.

A VCloak for SCH is a novelty piece, no one's saying that it's not a helpful equip. If you already have the cloak from WHM, SMN, or w/e then great, but anyone who buys this just for SCH has too much gil lying around.

My statement stands true, a SCH spending 700k for a VCloak is a waste of gil if he's using Sublimation correctly.




Win.
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#23 Apr 28 2008 at 11:06 AM Rating: Default
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Instead of writing a couple paragraphs saying why someone should spend 700k for an item that's situational at best, you could get some perspective on the actual question.



For the 3rd time, my very first post to this subject was concise and straight to the point with the same answer your giving but with a bit of intelligence behind it.

Vermy isn't something that is rendered as "situational" gear. If it was something you'd only use at a kirin fight, or only use as at kiting, or only this or that, then situational comes into play. Good sch's will make much use of their vermy in every situation.

Adding "at best" to the end of your statements doesn't miraculously make you right or the statements fact. All it does is show desperation that your perspective on it will hopefully be the final deciding factor, which it won't.

Read first, Understand everything that's being discussed, then debate intellectually like an adult, not an immature condescending moron.

Kodoreturns wrote:
My statement stands true, a SCH spending 700k for a VCloak is a waste of gil in my opinion because I can't afford it and have a hard time understanding how to use Sublimation correctly and efficiently with other useful tools.


fixed

Edited, Apr 28th 2008 3:25pm by xXxNaobixXx
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Naobi
Blm: 75, Sch: 75, Rdm: 75, Nin: 75, Smn: 72

Daggz:
Blm 75, Thf 75, War 74

Crafts
Bonecraft: 100 +6, Cooking: 60, Leathercraft: 60, Alchemy: 60, Clothcraft 55, Goldsmithing: 49

Missions
Bastok: Rank 10, Windurst: Rank 10, Sandoria: Rank 10
Zilart: Complete
CoP: Complete
ToAU: 19
WotG: 3?
Server: Bahamut
#24 Apr 28 2008 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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Read first, Understand everything that's being discussed, then debate intellectually like an adult, not an immature condescending moron


Naobi should follow his own advice and quit arguing over irrelevant semantics like a little kid, making editted quotes out of childish rage. The answer to the OP's question is no, you don't need a vermillion cloak, but it's nice to have anyway. You aren't gonna be kicked from any LS or party because you don't have one. Nobody but Naobi will even care.
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#25 Apr 28 2008 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Double post.

Edited, Apr 28th 2008 11:25pm by ihatetaru
#26 Apr 29 2008 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Vermy isn't something that is rendered as "situational" gear. If it was something you'd only use at a kirin fight, or only use as at kiting, or only this or that, then situational comes into play. Good sch's will make much use of their vermy in every situation.


Yes, it is. Gear that isn't situational is something you would wear full-time. If you're wearing a Vermillion Cloak full-time, you're not doing it right. Since you're an advocate of "understanding how to use Sublimation" I'm going to assume that you're not. Oh look, it's situational!

And yes, I know you don't mean you would wear it full-time. You logic is that "if I'm nuking, I can macro it in between nukes" and "if I'm healing, etc." The thing is, that's still situational use. That doesn't make it necessary to have.

xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Read first, Understand everything that's being discussed, then debate intellectually like an adult, not an immature condescending moron.
Because when adults debate intellectually, they have to insult the other party!

xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Kodoreturns wrote:
My statement stands true, a SCH spending 700k for a VCloak is a waste of gil in my opinion because I can't afford it and have a hard time understanding how to use Sublimation correctly and efficiently with other useful tools.
fixed
Nice try. A Vermillion Cloak is not required. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with not being able to afford it or not understanding Sublimation. There are times when a Vermillion Cloak is nice to have, no doubt. It is not, however, a necessary piece for any Scholar.

Edited, Apr 29th 2008 2:25am by Tidane
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