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Tier 4 nukes! <3Follow

#1 Mar 10 2008 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Just logged on and checked out new stuff on my 75 SCH... using addendom: black we get all the tier 4 nukes! White also gives us -na spells. Weather spell recast is like 15 secs now, 5~ sec cast time and 27 mp cost.

Along with all the other stuff.. best update ever.
#3 Mar 10 2008 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Any word on Gravity, Bind, Phalanx, Stoneskin, or Blink?
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#4jayfly, Posted: Mar 10 2008 at 4:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am SOOOOOOO leveling SCH now!
#5 Mar 10 2008 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Now watch all the haters jump on the bandwagon.
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#6 Mar 10 2008 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
Nope none of those, but it does get dispel, reraise 2, raise 2, and some other things I may be forgetting.
#7 Mar 10 2008 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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rofl way to overpowered.

So a whm only has raise 3 and teleports left for hisself and a blackmage warp and AM Nukes ?
ohh i forgot, with /whm sub they can tele too a bit and with /blm sub they can warp too.

This is just way too much.

PS: im not a whm or blm.
#8 Mar 11 2008 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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rofl way to overpowered.

So a whm only has raise 3 and teleports left for hisself and a blackmage warp and AM Nukes ?
ohh i forgot, with /whm sub they can tele too a bit and with /blm sub they can warp too.

This is just way too much.

PS: im not a whm or blm.


Still no Haste, so White Mages are far from obsolete.
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#9 Mar 11 2008 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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TwilightOblivion wrote:
Any word on Gravity, Bind, Phalanx, Stoneskin, or Blink?


We get none of them through Addendums.
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#10 Mar 11 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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rofl way to overpowered.


I don't think so. The addendoms are a nice addition which will now allow a sch to be even more flexable with their subjobs (whm is pretty pointless as a sj for sch now).

The new tier4 nukes are nice but schs are far from being able to do the damage a blm can with those (sch can only get upto magic attack bonus trait II with /blm) and no elemental magic potency merits.

SCH is far from being overpowered. Before this update, sch was like a rdm but less appeal; now, it seems a bit more balance.

I had only level sch to 37 but now, I'm a bit interested to take it further.
#11 Mar 11 2008 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I had some RDM friends complaining to me about how I'm overpowered and they're useless now. I asked one of the guys why I should give two *****: just last week he was lolschin' at me.




I love it.
#12 Mar 11 2008 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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A few things people need to keep in mind with these abilities. You gain power, but you do sacrifice some of your flexibility as a mage to do it. Remember you not only HAVE to have the appropriate art active (making the 1 min recast on arts more important to manage), you must ALSO burn a strategem charge to gain access to the spells every time you change arts. This may not be as much of an issue at higher levels. However, if I try to rely on White Add. for status cures at level 20 so I can sub BLM for MAB I, then I basically chain myself to Light Arts for 4 minute intervals because if I flip to Dark Arts early, I won't be able to regain access to my status cures until my next charge is ready. So in this situation it's either nuke once every four minutes, nuke under Light Arts, or lose access to status cures for certain stretches of time. In other words, you still have to compromise your nuking ability if you want fulltime access to status cures.

Another thing is, even with intelligent use of multiple charges to keep the addenums active at higher levels while changing arts more often, you're basically sacrificing the ability to use the other strategem abilities in order to maintain access to your addenum spells. While the spells are nice, so is the ability to cut MP usage on high level nukes, AOE a healing spell, and whatnot. In my opinion, I think these new abilities are more balanced than people realize because they require you to make choices and sacrifice other potentionally better abilities to use.
#13 Mar 11 2008 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Tidane wrote:
I had some RDM friends complaining to me about how I'm overpowered and they're useless now. I asked one of the guys why I should give two sh*ts: just last week he was lolschin' at me.




I love it.


I don't see why they would think that. SCH is encroaching more on BLM and WHM far more than it is on RDM. SCH has a CoT (Convert over time) that does not stack with refresh(it overwrites it), and can't be used on other people. SCH has gotten access to sleepga II which takes a charge to use. SCH still doesn't have Haste or a way to give mp to other mages, which are RDM's meripo trademarks. What SCH gained was in house -na's (I hear including Stona... ouch to WHMs), Raise II and better nuking ability, nothing there that either wasn't on RDM's plate already or something RDM was third rate at to begin with.

SCH got a big buff, but it's far more threatening to BLMs than anyone else imo.

edit to reply to:
Saelae wrote:
A few things people need to keep in mind with these abilities. You gain power, but you do sacrifice some of your flexibility as a mage to do it. Remember you not only HAVE to have the appropriate art active (making the 1 min recast on arts more important to manage), you must ALSO burn a strategem charge to gain access to the spells every time you change arts. This may not be as much of an issue at higher levels. However, if I try to rely on White Add. for status cures at level 20 so I can sub BLM for MAB I, then I basically chain myself to Light Arts for 4 minute intervals because if I flip to Dark Arts early, I won't be able to regain access to my status cures until my next charge is ready. So in this situation it's either nuke once every four minutes, nuke under Light Arts, or lose access to status cures for certain stretches of time. In other words, you still have to compromise your nuking ability if you want fulltime access to status cures.

Another thing is, even with intelligent use of multiple charges to keep the addenums active at higher levels while changing arts more often, you're basically sacrificing the ability to use the other strategem abilities in order to maintain access to your addenum spells. While the spells are nice, so is the ability to cut MP usage on high level nukes, AOE a healing spell, and whatnot. In my opinion, I think these new abilities are more balanced than people realize because they require you to make choices and sacrifice other potentionally better abilities to use.


I figured the idea was to not use the addendums unless you needed a spell in them. Plus status effects don't become a big issue until after your charge timer gets upgraded to 2 minutes, which would help a lot. This of course is figuring the Valkurm -> Qufim -> Yhutunga(poison) -> Yhoater(poison) camp progression and would only be an issue if you cared about 1hp/tick poison. I think the addendum charge requirement is a non-issue in low levels.

Edited, Mar 11th 2008 3:28pm by Ranzera
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#14 Mar 11 2008 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Ranzera of the Seven Seas wrote:
I figured the idea was to not use the addendums unless you needed a spell in them. Plus status effects don't become a big issue until after your charge timer gets upgraded to 2 minutes, which would help a lot. This of course is figuring the Valkurm -> Qufim -> Yhutunga(poison) -> Yhoater(poison) camp progression and would only be an issue if you cared about 1hp/tick poison. I think the addendum charge requirement is a non-issue in low levels.


That's true, and I agree that's probably how SE intended them to be used. However, my point was to show that there are limitions, as I'm getting a feel from a lot of people that SCH has suddenly turned into this all-powerful job that can now nuke tier IV's, cure status ailments without /WHM, hand out R2's, Sleepga 2 mobs (however, I've read that Manifestation doesn't work with Sleep 2 right now, is this true?), all at the same time when this is simply not true. They CAN do these things, but only occasionally unless you decide to specialize in one of the arts for a decent length of time. I guess my overall opinion is these updates were a much needed boost and not the overpowered insanity some people are trying to imply.

Edited, Mar 11th 2008 4:41pm by Saelae
#15 Mar 11 2008 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Ranzera of the Seven Seas wrote:
SCH got a big buff, but it's far more threatening to BLMs than anyone else imo.


And the two Black Mage/Scholars that I did the AF quests with were pumped that they could use their Tier IV nukes on Scholar now.

I'm ******* though, because I sold most of these scrolls the other day when I decided I wasn't going to level BLM for awhile and the money was better used elsewhere. :/
#16 Mar 11 2008 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ranzera of the Seven Seas wrote:
Tidane wrote:
I had some RDM friends complaining to me about how I'm overpowered and they're useless now. I asked one of the guys why I should give two sh*ts: just last week he was lolschin' at me.




I love it.


I don't see why they would think that. SCH is encroaching more on BLM and WHM far more than it is on RDM. SCH has a CoT (Convert over time) that does not stack with refresh(it overwrites it), and can't be used on other people. SCH has gotten access to sleepga II which takes a charge to use. SCH still doesn't have Haste or a way to give mp to other mages, which are RDM's meripo trademarks. What SCH gained was in house -na's (I hear including Stona... ouch to WHMs), Raise II and better nuking ability, nothing there that either wasn't on RDM's plate already or something RDM was third rate at to begin with.


The reason we're ****** (at least the reason I am) is that Sublimation doesn't stack with Refresh, but it does stack with Ballad and Evoker's Roll, so any WHM/SCH or SCH/XXX in a party is going to want a BRD or COR before a RDM (because either of those gives 3mp/tick + Sublimation and we can only give 3mp/tick OR Sublimation), and on top of that, that means that a RDM/SCH won't get the added benefit of Sublimation + Refresh, while a BRD + PUP/SCH (Stormwaker or Soulsoother) with decent +MP gear (and PUPs get no shortage of Mage gear for some odd reason) could probably main-heal a party now (grats to the PUPs on this, btw), with the exception of Haste (and SMN/SCH can do everything PUP/SCH can do, PLUS Hastega and Auto-refresh). Heck, BST/SCH could probably tank AND main heal, especially with the reduced Reward recast.

Now all of this, I can respect. The other mage jobs have needed RDM-esque durability for a long time now, and this update came not a moment too soon for them, but was it really necessary to cut RDM out of the loop? Is another 400MP/10 min for us so overpowered (and RDMs with Dalmatica and Duelist's Chapeau already have access to this, this just gives this advantage to your average RDM) that it justifies turning us into the last-choice Refresher, who already is inferior because the other two Refreshers can AoE their Refreshes (which cost them no MP) and we have to do it all single-target and spend 40MP a pop?

There comes a point where adding more MP/tick doesn't matter anymore; where it's simply not worth the trouble to go for even more MP. The Morrigan/Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau RDMs are pretty much there already. Letting Refresh stack with Sublimation would simply put the average RDM in easier reach of a higher degree of excellence, and not nerf our Refreshing ability in parties compared to BRD and COR. Would letting Refresh and Sublimation stack overpower our soloing ability even more? Possibly, but I don't really think so. On anything tough, we're going to be RDM/NIN with a Ceremonial Dagger, and /SCH isn't going to help us Sleep/Nuke anything we can't already, it will just let us do it faster (and we'll still be ages behind a SCH/RDM on the same solo in speed).

Part of me believes that Refresh and Sublimation not stacking is just a bug, and that it will be fixed; another part of me believes that SE hates their playerbase (and me in particular), and did this on purpose.

Either way, we came into this update anticipating a new toy to play with (especially with that frontline tease from fanfest), and ended up getting left out of the biggest mage buff since Rise of the Zilart (which, coincidentally, is the last time RDM has gotten anything cool), and having our Refreshing ability nerfed-by-exclusion. Also, they could have left us out of the buff in a different way, allowing Refresh and Sublimation to stack so we can remain a competent Refresher, and giving us a cool new JA that for one reason or another, doesn't stack with Sublimation, so at least we get something nice out of the deal, like an ability that drains 2HP/tick but boosts Magic Accuracy or something (I'd use that over Sublimation any day, resists are like a personal insult to me).

Anyway, I could go on, but really, that's most of my complaint. I don't begrudge Scholars for this (unlike BLMs, I'm sure), in fact I'm happy they got a great buff. I just don't want it ******** me over in the meantime, as you can bet that post-update every WHM will be /SCH, and they will always choose a BRD or COR over RDM now because our Refresh doesn't stack.
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#17 Mar 11 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:

Part of me believes that Refresh and Sublimation not stacking is just a bug, and that it will be fixed; another part of me believes that SE hates their playerbase (and me in particular), and did this on purpose.


I am not sure how I feel about this personally. Maybe it is just a glitch. If it isn't . . . from the SCH point of view, we still lack haste. Therefore when constructing a party, you are going to still need a WHM or RDM. Not to mention there are a lot more RDM's than BRD's or COR's usually. This will leave SCH without a form of Refresh for a good chunk of parties I think. I don't think Sublimation completely negates the need for Refresh.

For RDM's, I'm even more torn. If this was intentional, I think it was a direct move to counter red mages. RDM is already ridiculously MP efficient. The SCH subjob will also give a flat 10% reduction in MP cost, as well as reducing casting time. Giving RDM's even MORE MP would have greatly strengthened an already incredibly strong job. On the flip side though, you lose Erase with /SCH, so there are plenty of situations where /SCH isn't viable. The argument really could go either way.

I do think the RDM gripe about the update has more meat on the bones than the BLM & WHM complaints.
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#18 Mar 11 2008 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Sasaraixx wrote:
Giving RDM's even MORE MP would have greatly strengthened an already incredibly strong job. On the flip side though, you lose Erase with /SCH, so there are plenty of situations where /SCH isn't viable. The argument really could go either way.


While I agree with your sentiment, (maybe some of the insanely-powerful Avesta-RDMs can set me straight on this if I'm wrong, but), RDM really is at the point of diminishing returns with regards to MP. If we had access to 4,000mp/10 minutes, we really wouldn't be that much more powerful than we are already, due to the amount of time required to cast spells. It would just make it so we didn't have to consciously concern ourselves over how much MP we have left, and let us main heal RDM + 5xDD parties with ease instead of BRD + RDM + 4xDD parties (and nobody would want to do that, as a BRD puller is more beneficial to a party than a 5th DD). In my experience, at least, I am rarely hampered by a lack of MP in whatever activity I participate in (except solo-healing 5xDD or attempting to main heal from the frontline as something other than /DNC or /BLU, although I haven't tried since the /DNC adjustment, so that may have gone out the door); the real chains holding me back are 1) spell casting times, 2) number of spells to cast, 3) recast times/spell duration. Even if Sublimation and Refresh did stack, I could still see lots of RDM forgoing /SCH and subbing /WHM, /DRK, /BLU, /BLM, etc. just as they currently do, simply for the increased utility in focused tasks.

That's not to say that /SCH is useless, far from it (especially with the addition of -na spells), but letting Sublimation stack with Refresh for RDM/SCH isn't as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be, we'll do just fine without it, we have for a long time: the real issue is that Refresh and Sublimation don't stack on SCH/XXX, WHM/SCH, SMN/SCH, BLM/SCH (if people actually do it) etc., and that's what really hurts RDM.
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#19 Mar 11 2008 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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RDM isn't MP efficient at all, especially when you start tossing the bloated cost second tier enfeebles into the picture. RDM's ultimate longevity is determined by the skills of others you party with. Overall, I've come to accept that SCH will be fleshed out as a more magely RDM, while RDM should receive the alluded melee buffs that SE mentioned a while ago but were conspicuously absent this update.

On one hand, Sublimation is actually a blessing for RDMs since they won't have to blow 40 MP Refreshing a SCH or /SCH. However, I can also understand it being a generally useless JA as a sub for RDM. I do see it having situationally useful points, especially when you start nearing the end of your MP and Convert is still a few minutes off.

For now, I'm considering picking SCH up past sub levels, but I'm still doing a bit more research.

Edited, Mar 11th 2008 8:41pm by Seriha
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#20 Mar 12 2008 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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blm 75 here :-)

i'll be happy to invite sch to manaburns now.

group aoe weather effects ^^ (obi-fun)
tier IV nukes to join in the blm's
raise II for when things go bad.

only negattive thing i can think about is sch uses a lot of JA, and when we're at the pudding camp, you might get some aggro.
i used elemental seal once close to some puddings. 5 puddings turning to you is not a pretty sight...
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#21 Mar 12 2008 at 4:05 AM Rating: Default
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i'll be happy to invite sch to manaburns now.


SCH won't be happy to invite you.

Why would they? You don't do more damage, you have to rest twice as much and you can't RaiseII if things go wrong.

The fact is that, after all is considered:

SCH/BLM>BLM/SCH, by miles.
SCH/RDM>BLM/RDM, by just as far.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 8:07am by NotASock
#22 Mar 12 2008 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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What I would like to hear is how much dmg a SCH can do with a Tier IV spell w/o buffing it with potency JA, just dark arts and equipment
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#23 Mar 12 2008 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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NorthernStar wrote:
What I would like to hear is how much dmg a SCH can do with a Tier IV spell w/o buffing it with potency JA, just dark arts and equipment


http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=30977&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=180

Halfway down the page, Toth has a post with a few Limbus Screenshots. He says, without Ebullience, he was hitting for "around 1100."
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#24 Mar 12 2008 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, such negativity going on about "such-and-such" job and all. Come on guys, I just think SE is trying to stop all this "Brd only, Rdm only, 4xDD + Rdm & Brd" stuff. "We" as a player base have done this sort of thing to ourselves only making it frustrating for certain jobs/people to enjoy the game with each other. Don't get me wrong, Manaburns/Tp burns are nice, but what about the good ol' days where You used to have Tank,DD,Support,Main healing comprised of a variety of jobs lol.

Quote:
SCH won't be happy to invite you.

Why would they? You don't do more damage, you have to rest twice as much and you can't RaiseII if things go wrong.


Naw, I for one will enjoy partying with a good ol' Blm!
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#25 Mar 12 2008 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, his equipment did look like some of the best he could get, but if the 1200 was the unresisted and avarege was 1100 it's still pretty close to what a normal BLM can do, maybe before adding merits
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#26 Mar 12 2008 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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NorthernStar wrote:
Well, his equipment did look like some of the best he could get, but if the 1200 was the unresisted and avarege was 1100 it's still pretty close to what a normal BLM can do, maybe before adding merits


Quite possibly the best item for the Nuking SCH that was released was the Vicious Mufflers:

.dat mining wrote:
{Rare}{EX} Vicious mufflers
Hands
DEF:18 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5 Enhances effect of "Absorb" spells
Lv.70 BLM/DRK/SCH


It's a "free" Zenith Mitts for SCH, and trumps anything else we can currently wear on our hands. It's also a force-pop NM in Meri[tab] where you trade some Gnat Pellets to a ???.
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