why scholarFollow

Pretty much the same reason people invite SMN pre 70. SMN and SCH have good DD potential earlier levels.. but most people look at it as a substandard whm until then.

To be perfectly honest with you I am in the same boat. Looking at the job description as of right now I can't yet justify the time and effort to unlock this job let alone level it through the Dunes, Qufim, the Jungles, and the Batcave all over again to sub on RDM, bringing up my silly Dark magic skill and opening up the coveted Regen II. Even though I giggle wildly every time I think of the ridiculous mp to hp healed ratio of that wonderful spell, I'm afraid I can't stomach another 40 odd levels of magery (BLM and WHM subs fully leveled). However, this is a matter of personal preference.

Somewhere between me fully meriting out my WAR/NIN and getting my THF Homam and a Blau I realized that I needn't bother meriting on my RDM (read: main heal) any more because I can pretty much demolish Joe Pick-up DD in any rooster-waving damage fight whilst blinking away the hits that would have inevitably hit him square on his shihei conserving "it's too expensive" arse. Dear God it sounds like he's saying main healing is beneath him! BLASPHEMY! Call me an elitist if you must, but as a timer-counting, refresh/haste cycle bouncing, link-sleeping Red Mage turned "gear-whore" melee (apparently melee => mage doesn't transition nearly as well) I can honestly say that I would contribute more to a party as a melee than as mage purely because of smart gear/food decisions and fast use of cooldowns and shadows. Not to knock the hard working mages of Vana'diel, your contributions are invaluable to making the party run smoothly, but everyone has their own personal "dear god is he really wearing that" melee DD horror stories to share. No amount of on-the-dot hasting, Dia3 casting, gravity landing is going to elevate no food Thief tp-ing in Assassin's armlets, thief knife, and TRIPLE DAGGER out of the pit of the TH whoring that spawned her. On the other hand, gear choices and food are not nearly as detrimental to a mage's performance provided they can hit a Cure/Regen macro (pains me to say this, but haste and status cures are for the big kids. Seriously, I dance a little inside every time I get haste and it makes me feel… so cold and empty…)

With that being said, bear in mind that I've said this knowing full well that this is the Scholar forum, and as much as I personally would not like to level the job as of right now, this is in no way an attack on the job as a whole. Compared to its flashier, sexier WotG cousin Dancer (although this may change when the Mithran schoolgirls start running about), Scholar seems like a drab bookish redress of the standard colorful mage fare, but beneath this deceptively shy exterior beats the heart of the most beautiful, ravishing job to date! (It’s not you, it’s me…) Well, OK, maybe not beautiful… kinda cute with youthful exuberance is more like it…

… Moving on…

Scholar’s youth is exactly the thing the excuses the flaws that it has. Having only been out for nary a blip on the FFXI timeline as part of an expansion pack that feels more like something the development team threw together on their lunch break and released figuring they could just patch it up after they secured our cash, it is easy to forgive the ineffectiveness of Scholar’s few exclusive spells and its lack of buffs like Haste and Stoneskin. (Stoneskin is an issue for BLM’s who want to /SCH for 1337 AoE’s and stuff) All of this will likely be fixed in the coming months (unless weather effects actually have some as of yet unseen effect on stats other than randomly boosting elemental damage and triggering Sea Obis). In addition to that, the nuking effects of the Helixes are hard to capture due to their DoTtie nature (har a pun), and I hear that AoE enspells seem to be hitting 50% resist rate at a strangely high rate. For now, just enjoy Scholar for what it is: an extra mp efficient BLM or WHM surrogate depending on what book you happen to be lugging about at the time that trades a few nice spells like Haste for a bag of magic tricks. Play it if you liked or would probably like either of those jobs, but don’t be surprised if you are asked to switch roles on the fly. To be honest, if SE tacked on Refresh and some enfeebles to scholar it would feel like what Red Mage could’ve been, a testament to godlike mp-efficiency (/glee) if it wasn’t so burdened by its “B sword skill which is apparently SE’s way of saying go ahead and feed the mob some TP.” In the mean time I will be farming for the next piece of godlike gear. I hear that once I become melee Jesus in a video game my dad will love me. :(

No offense, Amoeba, but all I could really gather from your post was:

I don't like leveling mage jobs anymore, filler filler, melee jobs are harder to pull off, etc. etc., something about SCH being a failed RDM and RDM not deserving its melee skills.

if you could do that, i'd never get any parties

I would rather see the disadvantages because it's always the disadvantages that holds a party back.

The why this game is played now, you really don't need much in ways of team work. Meaning, the guy you invite don't necessary need to know how a hybrid class work in order for that guy to excel in his role.

Edited, Jan 18th 2008 11:28pm by taishokukanoki

To Amoebadoom..... I hate melee DD, it is one of the most stupid worthless job in FFXI. Maybe not worthless but pretty dumb to play. Your ability to contribute DD is solely based on your gear, and your tp feed and your macro spamming WS, even a monkey can press the same button once the tp number hits 100. No strategy, no thinking, nothing is required of you other than spamming your WS, pretty much gloating and boasting your such and such weapons. Melee DD can't solo too well against some of the NM in FFXI, you are not too great even against the mob in campaign, I am sorry but without mages helping you with cure and haste you are nothing but a meatshield, Your usefulness is done the minute your hp reach zero. Smn and Rdm can outtank you, and probably contribute way a lot more to the party, and 5 times more useful when it comes to kiting. Blm out solo you, and even dancer can outlast and outank warriors.

I am hoping WoTG will be the expansion that finally turns the tide against the idiotic tp burn party and finally give mages the upper hand when it comes to gears and opportunity. The mages of Vanadiel contribute far more when it comes to xp party, without us, all melee DDs are pretty much worthless pile of meatshield who can't even take care of their own in xp party.

No my dear, melee DD need mages more than we mages need you as melee DD. We have quite a few tank choices. And certain jobs can be geared into DD, and let's not forget we do have BLMs. So yes we can pretty much survive without you. But without bard and rdm, you melee DD and your tp burn party are screwed... get it??? SCREWED!!! Big time. We mages have more options when it comes to party, we can survive without one single melee DD and survive well. The tp burn party CANNOT and will not exist without bard and rdm, both are vital to keep the party going and manage link.

Without the mages keeping you alive, you don't even have a chance in hell trying to get your hands on your oh so awesome gears from the sky. Or beating CoP (which all mages party namely all smn party can win CoP pretty much most of it without needing one melee DD at all). As melee DD you need the tank (yes even Paladin tank) and mages more so than the mages need you.

All summoner alliance coupled with Rdms, Bards, Blms, Scholars, and Whms can pretty much handles everything in the game without melee DDs.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:35pm by luvbunnies

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:50pm by luvbunnies

I don't have anything against mages, as I am both a RDM and a BRD, and started the game as a RDM but:

Not true, my favorite type of burn involves no mages(main job anyway), 2-3 DRG/mage and the rest melee. I've done em with brds and cors as well, but still, works very very fast and just as well without em on G.Colibri. Links aren't a problem, we had 3 on us at once easily, no need to sleep, just make sure each are on a separate person and you can keep everyone healed spamming healing breath.

Now this won't work much other places due to aoe and high damage enemy ws(well, it can, but isn't as fast as other tp burn and as drg burn at colibri, I've done drg burns vs mamool and weapons in sky too) but it can be done, so never use absolutes. There is always an exception. I also agree with you saying mages are needed in other places, but so are melees for most strats. All smn strats will work, but generally those are more extremist type things, and besides, by the same token you'd want melee's abilities weakened by WoTG, they could just make NMs that only melees can do well against :P

Also, only some Melee DD are button mashing. In a DRG burn like I mentioned, the DRG/mages have to watch hp while doing damage, certainly not a hard thing at all, but involves some thinking. DRGs are quite potent soloers too, as are NINs. THF can do pretty well too, and is anything but button mashing to pull off correctly. Trying to position yourself correctly around an always turning mob, with other melees who don't want you to trick attack on them, knowing when to save your feints, when and what ws to use etc. Sounds to me like you're bashing a class you haven't played.

I enjoy the technical play and strat of mage classes, but they can get just a repetitious as some DD classes if all you do is the same thing over and over, as some mages do, or have to do. Melee DD and Mage can both be technically inclined, and both be rather button mashing, its up to how you play it.

In all honesty though, theres no reason to be arguing over something petty like this, lets leave it at we need one another, because as either, I like having the other around, for the most part.

Statement correction, said colibri instead of weapons

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 11:00pm by Souji

Hehe, thats what happens when you type a book as a reply... sometimes I forget I turned my ramble button on...

I'm normally not one to initiate flame attacks, but luvbunnies, can you QQ any more about your dislike of an entire group of people?

This is supposed to be a discussion of Scholar's applications in parties, not your soapbox to piss and moan about why those mean awful "elitist" melee players regularly kick your puppy. Your entire entrance to this thread was to give a textual reach around to another myoptic player who shares your BAWWWWW affection against melee classes, and it's certainly not needed in this thread or in this forum.

Contribute or go away.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 11:07am by Acturus

Back on topic of the original post, I was actually going to post something similar. I've spent the past few days soloing SCH from 1 to 15 and plan on taking it to the dunes tonight. Now, I know I'll enjoy leveling the job, I have no problem with that. I'll enjoy it if I'm main healing, I'll enjoy it if I'm nuking, I'll enjoy it if it's a little of both.

Here's where I'm having a problem, though: SCH seems to be good at both the basic skills of WHM and BLM, but not so great at either, and SCH lacks a lot of the secondary spells (Haste being the most apparent). Why invite a SCH if you want a healer if there's a WHM available? Why invite an SCH if you want a nuker if there's a BLM available (or at all past 55, as seems to be the annoying trend). SCH really can't fill the role of support that a RDM, BRD, or COR fills, as there's no Refresh or the before mentioned Haste. The weather spells sound nice, but how do they really differ in effect to a BRD's threnody songs (this may just be my own ignorance here). I think the problem that I'm having is that SCH sounds good, but right now lacks something that really makes you say "Yeah, invite that SCH.".

I'll end this by saying that I really want to level Scholar, I just don't want to regret leveling it when I could be leveling a job that I'll feel more useful playing in the end. I'm not sure that came out right, but I can't think of how to word it better.

Also consider that at lower lvls, there are still a big shortage of healers (even at midlevels). The ones who are seeking could be a bunch of inexperienced players leveling their first jobs on WHM, BLM, or RDM. If you are making a lower lvl party, you probably better off with an experienced veteran players who level scholar since most of them probably have leveled other mage jobs and understand what healing (and conserve mp means). At lower lvls SCH is better than WHM (assuming you get a player who can dual role the job), at least before lvl 41, Scholar can fill the healer role (and blm role) very easily. It gives you more flexibility when making a party. Heck 3 dancer, a monk, a bard and a scholar can works extremely well and reducing the need of ever having a noob tank...

We all should be grateful that SE finally gets it right with the last two new jobs. They are so powerful and useful, it is not even a joke, each jobs are extremely potent as a main and even super useful as a sub. Scholar is great sub for every other whm, rdms, smns and blms out there!! And let's not even mentioning dancer.... it is one of the BEST job they ever created in a long long long long time.

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 1:06pm by luvbunnies

The real unfortunate part really (and in more than one reason partly SE's fault) is that it's hard to find just about any key jobs to join parties these days. I went mad trying to find tanks to join my parties at levels up until level 50. PLD and NINs were hardly seeking and you struck the jackpot of you managed to get one. Most of the time, I ended up going with WAR, and even then they were pretty hard to find. Can't really explain why, but I sure ended up with a good amount of SAM tanks.

So, uh... anyway...

I'm new to FFXI, and I was wondering: will subbing WHM or BLM as a scholar get me less invites due to the fact that I'm more specialized in a certain area than, say, a SCH/RDM?

As a BLM i will just say that SCH never deserved to ahve anywhere near the nuking power of a BLM as they are allowed to already have both skills. It is bad >.>..;

Anyways I came to this thread hoping it would be a thread talking about what the good/bad us of leveling SCH >.>..; and I found it to basicly turn out to be a RDM without refresh ><... and some fancy helix and storm spells (Storm is useful, I won't doubt)... Nice party members >< but not nice sub sadly ; - ;...

I gave up on sch and refuse to level it past 12 until SE does something to fix it.

They need to do something.. perhaps give it tier 1 weather spells at level 10 to make it more of a geomancer or SOMETHING.

at least give it some kinds of geomancer party buffs that give haste + attack + accuracy AOE Phalanx spell that stacks with phalanx.

The job has potential but it falls short at being anything but .. slightly better than /blm for conserving mp and not as good as /smn for longer battles.

And leveling the job to 37 is a joke it offers virtually NOTHING during that level range...

I still vote sch gets regain at level 41 >.>... but I really feel like the job needs to feel more like a geomancer at level 10 and up.

Edited, Feb 15th 2008 10:24am by thorazinekizzez

At lower lvls, Scholar is more of a whm, but still can nuke pretty well. The strategem is a bit limited I agree, and the job could use some tweak, but it is not broken or totally unplayable. Granted if you gonna do Scholar VS this and that job, all the specialized jobs will win within their respective specialized roles but neither can do a better job at dual roles at the same time, the closest to this is RDM but even then, RDM has a much weaker nukes, though they do have refresh, haste, dispel and convert. It took them awhile to make RDM a unique job, when the game first came out, RDM was the SCHOLAR, nothing really unique about the job and a bit of a wasted space. After they added refresh, phalanx, dispel and convert, you probably wonder how can you even make a party without a RDM :-P

I leveled whm, blm and rdm.. sch is a very weak compared to all of these. To add insult to injury it has even worse melee capacity and lacks buffs that other mage jobs all posses. This means that sch is a poor job to level as /bst and its even worse in a exp party until roughly level 18-20. You get cure 2 last behind whm and rdm at 18 and in addition to that you cant get a native magic attack bonus until 20 when subbing /blm or /rdm. first 18-20 levels of this job is very gimp...

in addition to that the job does not get anything truly special until level 40.

Its almost like leveling thf but its sneak attack is level 40 and it gets nothing else until after level 50+. you get flee at level 55!

cmon you have to admit thats a little excessive. SE was a tad too tight when making this job in fear of making it over powered.

And like it or not Sch IS geomancer at higher levels.

well just to add my own two cents

i have my sch at 51 and really dont see how it is a new job at all
i agree with everyone else in that if i want to be a healer all the time id level whm, which is better at doing so
and in parties... with my own exp parties dont want mixture jobs to do more than just healing about 80% of the time.. so its kinda pointless in being proud of being able to do decent nukes

i cant imagine rdm without refresh, convert, and haste soooo...
i figure why not give sch some useful spells no one else has like mimic/reflect
and some type of hate transfer ability, like provoke but casted for some other party member (oh didnt they give thf something like that?)

and form what ive read, the helix spells damage was supposed to compare to AM but in dot form, which i now read to be false and takes way too long.. almost a whole minute only worth 700-1000 hp is really crappy to me
why not be able to stack them like the blm elemental dots?

ugh poor sch is a crappy job... but ill still be leveling it lol

All I can say is this, I hate the collibris!!! It pretty much reduced Scholar as a cure bot, regen 2, stonekinga every 2 mnts, cure, cure, cure and more cure. Not being able to haste kinda reduced the role a bit. With these birds, you cannot do much, cannot nuke or enfeeble. I would say that Whm probably end up doing the same thing, except they cannot stoneskinga.

I am still level 61, but overall this job is very promising. The weather spells are somewhat useless, since you don't really see that much application, meaning not many people actually have gears that would benefit from the latent effect, and BLMs are very rarely getting invited to a party so you can't really use it, except to yourself, even then, Scholar resist rate is horrible. I have to say that below lvl 50s, Scholar is a better main healer than a Whm, mainly for a simple fact that most people who do play Scholar, most of them have leveled other mage jobs, while new-ish Whm is just learning the job. After level 50s, Scholar started becoming more and more a hybrid mage. Against lesser Colibri you can still nuke, but after seeing the damage you probably end up not nuking, subbing blm to cast debuff and enfeebling spells are good.

Once you arrived in ToAU camps, you kinda better off making your own party, and try to think like a BLM when it comes to what mobs you gonna fight. If you can, you should grab a dancer, and maybe a smn or rdm or another blm. Dancer will help you heal so you can nuke at second half of the battle. Rdm, Corsair, Blue or Bard would be needed for dispel vs the crawlers. At the end of the day, I cannot wait for the AF armors, and SE to tweak this job, being good at a little bit of everything is very bad in this game, since SE tend to neuter your ability, fearing that OMG you will be overpowered.... just ask SMN, Pup, Corsair, and to some extend Blue.

Not exactly, you get the spells and abilities from subjobs at half the rate you would get it on a main job. It would be 1/2 strength if the main job does not have natural skills in what you want to use. SCH has native skill in all the basic magic skills, so their Sleep is just as good as any other WHM, BLM, or RDM, of comparable skill level.

The problem really is that I think SE wanted SCH to be heavily defined by what subjob it uses. But come one, really no other job in the game operates like that besides SMN...and that's cause arguably, SMN is a very poorly defined main job until much higher levels. RDM is another, but not nearly to the level that SCH does now, especially in EXP party.

Edited, Feb 21st 2008 6:19pm by Ketaru

I was SCH/RDM from lvl 1-60 so far and i love /rdm. i like it better then /whm and /blm alone. We get Fast Cast, Magick atk. I never had a issue with getting invites. i think /rdm is better then /blm. we get the same nukes as them and you get no benefit. 8 min elemental seal is hardly worth losing, blink,stoneskin, fast cast, dispel,gravity. the only thing /blm has is magick atk II but thats at lvl 60. /whm only benefit is erase. other then that its no need for it.. lol oh ya.. na spells.....

Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:14am by kytomasi

Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:16am by kytomasi