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why scholarFollow

#1 Jan 16 2008 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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So I am lv12 scholar. When I started playing this game again like month a two ago I decided I wanted scholar to be my main job to level 75. Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too. I know that i am still low right now but I'm wondering what is so good about a scholar? We learn every spell slower then whm or blm. Like learning Cure II 6 levels behind a whm and fire 3 levels behind a blm. So what I want to know is there something I am not noticing that makes scholar different or better then a whm or blm? Also i know we get storm spells in the 40s but does that even help us to we get helix spells in the 60s? Why would anyone want a scholar in the group before 60s?
#2 Jan 16 2008 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty much the same reason people invite SMN pre 70. SMN and SCH have good DD potential earlier levels.. but most people look at it as a substandard whm until then.
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#3 Jan 16 2008 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm leveling SCH myself actually and am very pleased with the results. You're only level 12, and honestly, I think the first 14-16 levels of SCH are the worst really.

Quote:
We learn every spell slower then whm or blm.


We learn every spell slower than WHM or BLM, but we do learn both and can use both with natural skill level, which no WHM or BLM can claim.

Quote:
Pretty much the same reason people invite SMN pre 70. SMN and SCH have good DD potential earlier levels.. but most people look at it as a substandard whm until then.


People can make their own claims about their ability to nuke, but speaking as a main healer myself, I think, in many ways, SCH is more MP efficient than WHM, or SCH's more comparable counterpart SMN (or rather, especially more MP efficient than SMN). SCH gets Regen II and Accession. Against dragonflies in the Crawler's Nest, whenever they used that damned Cursed Sphere thingy move or whatever, I would run and give the entire party Regen II. It was sufficient to keep the party alive and bring them back to full health and I didn't generate as much emnity as if I had cast the comparable amount of Curaga. Or now I'm giving my party Stoneskin. I may not have Refresh, but with everybody having Stoneskin, I can usually rest up a sufficient amount of MP before I even have to start healing people. Being able to Aspir mobs with MP is a huge plus to keeping my MP up.

I don't think SCH is a substandard WHM at all. In fact, depending on the situation, I think it might even be better than WHM.

As for the weather spells, it is my observation that they make a noticeable difference in nuke damage. I usually cast a weather spell on myself if I'm intending to cast the same nuke more than once in that battle.

EDIT: Admittedly, the biggest damning thing against SCH is the lack of Haste. But I'm level 61 now and people don't shy away from me for a spot in their party just because of it (although among my level range, I kind of have a reputation as being good since the inviters are always repeat inviters. When I come back in March and nobody in my level range knows me, I can't really say...)

Edited, Jan 16th 2008 3:35pm by Ketaru
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#4 Jan 17 2008 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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To be perfectly honest with you I am in the same boat. Looking at the job description as of right now I can't yet justify the time and effort to unlock this job let alone level it through the Dunes, Qufim, the Jungles, and the Batcave all over again to sub on RDM, bringing up my silly Dark magic skill and opening up the coveted Regen II. Even though I giggle wildly every time I think of the ridiculous mp to hp healed ratio of that wonderful spell, I'm afraid I can't stomach another 40 odd levels of magery (BLM and WHM subs fully leveled). However, this is a matter of personal preference.

Somewhere between me fully meriting out my WAR/NIN and getting my THF Homam and a Blau I realized that I needn't bother meriting on my RDM (read: main heal) any more because I can pretty much demolish Joe Pick-up DD in any rooster-waving damage fight whilst blinking away the hits that would have inevitably hit him square on his shihei conserving "it's too expensive" ****. Dear God it sounds like he's saying main healing is beneath him! BLASPHEMY! Call me an elitist if you must, but as a timer-counting, refresh/haste cycle bouncing, link-sleeping Red Mage turned "gear-*****" melee (apparently melee => mage doesn't transition nearly as well) I can honestly say that I would contribute more to a party as a melee than as mage purely because of smart gear/food decisions and fast use of cooldowns and shadows. Not to knock the hard working mages of Vana'diel, your contributions are invaluable to making the party run smoothly, but everyone has their own personal "dear god is he really wearing that" melee DD horror stories to share. No amount of on-the-dot hasting, Dia3 casting, gravity landing is going to elevate no food Thief tp-ing in Assassin's armlets, thief knife, and TRIPLE DAGGER out of the pit of the TH whoring that spawned her. On the other hand, gear choices and food are not nearly as detrimental to a mage's performance provided they can hit a Cure/Regen macro (pains me to say this, but haste and status cures are for the big kids. Seriously, I dance a little inside every time I get haste and it makes me feel… so cold and empty…)

With that being said, bear in mind that I've said this knowing full well that this is the Scholar forum, and as much as I personally would not like to level the job as of right now, this is in no way an attack on the job as a whole. Compared to its flashier, sexier WotG cousin Dancer (although this may change when the Mithran schoolgirls start running about), Scholar seems like a drab bookish redress of the standard colorful mage fare, but beneath this deceptively shy exterior beats the heart of the most beautiful, ravishing job to date! (It’s not you, it’s me…) Well, OK, maybe not beautiful… kinda cute with youthful exuberance is more like it…

… Moving on…

Scholar’s youth is exactly the thing the excuses the flaws that it has. Having only been out for nary a blip on the FFXI timeline as part of an expansion pack that feels more like something the development team threw together on their lunch break and released figuring they could just patch it up after they secured our cash, it is easy to forgive the ineffectiveness of Scholar’s few exclusive spells and its lack of buffs like Haste and Stoneskin. (Stoneskin is an issue for BLM’s who want to /SCH for 1337 AoE’s and stuff) All of this will likely be fixed in the coming months (unless weather effects actually have some as of yet unseen effect on stats other than randomly boosting elemental damage and triggering Sea Obis). In addition to that, the nuking effects of the Helixes are hard to capture due to their DoTtie nature (har a pun), and I hear that AoE enspells seem to be hitting 50% resist rate at a strangely high rate. For now, just enjoy Scholar for what it is: an extra mp efficient BLM or WHM surrogate depending on what book you happen to be lugging about at the time that trades a few nice spells like Haste for a bag of magic tricks. Play it if you liked or would probably like either of those jobs, but don’t be surprised if you are asked to switch roles on the fly. To be honest, if SE tacked on Refresh and some enfeebles to scholar it would feel like what Red Mage could’ve been, a testament to godlike mp-efficiency (/glee) if it wasn’t so burdened by its “B sword skill which is apparently SE’s way of saying go ahead and feed the mob some TP.” In the mean time I will be farming for the next piece of godlike gear. I hear that once I become melee Jesus in a video game my dad will love me. :(
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#5 Jan 17 2008 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
With that being said, bear in mind that I've said this knowing full well that this is the Scholar forum, and as much as I personally would not like to level the job as of right now, this is in no way an attack on the job as a whole. Compared to its flashier, sexier WotG cousin Dancer (although this may change when the Mithran schoolgirls start running about), Scholar seems like a drab bookish redress of the standard colorful mage fare, but beneath this deceptively shy exterior beats the heart of the most beautiful, ravishing job to date! (It’s not you, it’s me…) Well, OK, maybe not beautiful… kinda cute with youthful exuberance is more like it…


Then dont?

Quote:
Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too


Stop playing the job?

.

Quite a bit of words...not that much to say.
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#6 Jan 17 2008 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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No offense, Amoeba, but all I could really gather from your post was:

I don't like leveling mage jobs anymore, filler filler, melee jobs are harder to pull off, etc. etc., something about SCH being a failed RDM and RDM not deserving its melee skills.
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#7 Jan 17 2008 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Mythe wrote:
why scholar
why post


This thread sucks. There are more pressing issues than "why invite a scholar?" For example: why should we invite someone too dumb to know the advantages of a hybrid class?

I wish we could do a /sea all IQ 100-250 when searching for a party.
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#8 Jan 18 2008 at 4:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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if you could do that, i'd never get any parties
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#9 Jan 18 2008 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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My response is pretty shallow.

I want to see my mithra in SCH AF.. Plus i've got merits that are useful for it =)
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#10 Jan 18 2008 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are more pressing issues than "why invite a scholar?" For example: why should we invite someone too dumb to know the advantages of a hybrid class?


I would rather see the disadvantages because it's always the disadvantages that holds a party back.

The why this game is played now, you really don't need much in ways of team work. Meaning, the guy you invite don't necessary need to know how a hybrid class work in order for that guy to excel in his role.

Edited, Jan 18th 2008 11:28pm by taishokukanoki
#11 Jan 21 2008 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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This game is full of people wanting to level as fast as possible. I can pretty much guarantee you EVERYONE would want the party to consist of 4 war/nin brd and whm.
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#12 Jan 22 2008 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
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To Amoebadoom..... I hate melee DD, it is one of the most stupid worthless job in FFXI. Maybe not worthless but pretty dumb to play. Your ability to contribute DD is solely based on your gear, and your tp feed and your macro spamming WS, even a monkey can press the same button once the tp number hits 100. No strategy, no thinking, nothing is required of you other than spamming your WS, pretty much gloating and boasting your such and such weapons. Melee DD can't solo too well against some of the NM in FFXI, you are not too great even against the mob in campaign, I am sorry but without mages helping you with cure and haste you are nothing but a meatshield, Your usefulness is done the minute your hp reach zero. Smn and Rdm can outtank you, and probably contribute way a lot more to the party, and 5 times more useful when it comes to kiting. Blm out solo you, and even dancer can outlast and outank warriors.

I am hoping WoTG will be the expansion that finally turns the tide against the idiotic tp burn party and finally give mages the upper hand when it comes to gears and opportunity. The mages of Vanadiel contribute far more when it comes to xp party, without us, all melee DDs are pretty much worthless pile of meatshield who can't even take care of their own in xp party.
#13 Jan 22 2008 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I am hoping WoTG will be the expansion that finally turns the tide against the idiotic tp burn party and finally give mages the upper hand when it comes to gears and opportunity. The mages of Vanadiel contribute far more when it comes to xp party, without us, all melee DDs are pretty much worthless pile of meatshield who can't even take care of their own in xp party.


1. Doesnt that go for mages as well then? Without the Melee being up there to keep the mobs off of the mages, mages are pretty much screwed

2. TP Burn > You.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:17pm by Mezzura
#14 Jan 22 2008 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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No my dear, melee DD need mages more than we mages need you as melee DD. We have quite a few tank choices. And certain jobs can be geared into DD, and let's not forget we do have BLMs. So yes we can pretty much survive without you. But without bard and rdm, you melee DD and your tp burn party are screwed... get it??? SCREWED!!! Big time. We mages have more options when it comes to party, we can survive without one single melee DD and survive well. The tp burn party CANNOT and will not exist without bard and rdm, both are vital to keep the party going and manage link.

Without the mages keeping you alive, you don't even have a chance in **** trying to get your hands on your oh so awesome gears from the sky. Or beating CoP (which all mages party namely all smn party can win CoP pretty much most of it without needing one melee DD at all). As melee DD you need the tank (yes even Paladin tank) and mages more so than the mages need you.

All summoner alliance coupled with Rdms, Bards, Blms, Scholars, and Whms can pretty much handles everything in the game without melee DDs.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:35pm by luvbunnies

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:50pm by luvbunnies
#15 Jan 22 2008 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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1. /nin does wonders

2. 6 DRG, 3(or all 6 if you so wish) /whm, rdm, blm, or blu,
3 /war, thf, or nin.


Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 8:47pm by Mezzura
#16 Jan 22 2008 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't have anything against mages, as I am both a RDM and a BRD, and started the game as a RDM but:
luvbunnies wrote:
The tp burn party CANNOT and will not exist without bard and rdm, both are vital to keep the party going and manage link.

Not true, my favorite type of burn involves no mages(main job anyway), 2-3 DRG/mage and the rest melee. I've done em with brds and cors as well, but still, works very very fast and just as well without em on G.Colibri. Links aren't a problem, we had 3 on us at once easily, no need to sleep, just make sure each are on a separate person and you can keep everyone healed spamming healing breath.

Now this won't work much other places due to aoe and high damage enemy ws(well, it can, but isn't as fast as other tp burn and as drg burn at colibri, I've done drg burns vs mamool and weapons in sky too) but it can be done, so never use absolutes. There is always an exception. I also agree with you saying mages are needed in other places, but so are melees for most strats. All smn strats will work, but generally those are more extremist type things, and besides, by the same token you'd want melee's abilities weakened by WoTG, they could just make NMs that only melees can do well against :P

Also, only some Melee DD are button mashing. In a DRG burn like I mentioned, the DRG/mages have to watch hp while doing damage, certainly not a hard thing at all, but involves some thinking. DRGs are quite potent soloers too, as are NINs. THF can do pretty well too, and is anything but button mashing to pull off correctly. Trying to position yourself correctly around an always turning mob, with other melees who don't want you to trick attack on them, knowing when to save your feints, when and what ws to use etc. Sounds to me like you're bashing a class you haven't played.

I enjoy the technical play and strat of mage classes, but they can get just a repetitious as some DD classes if all you do is the same thing over and over, as some mages do, or have to do. Melee DD and Mage can both be technically inclined, and both be rather button mashing, its up to how you play it.

In all honesty though, theres no reason to be arguing over something petty like this, lets leave it at we need one another, because as either, I like having the other around, for the most part.

Statement correction, said colibri instead of weapons

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 11:00pm by Souji
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#17 Jan 22 2008 at 5:55 PM Rating: Default
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Seems I beat you to the DRG comment Souji ;-)

And, good post, Rate up.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 8:56pm by Mezzura
#18 Jan 22 2008 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hehe, thats what happens when you type a book as a reply... sometimes I forget I turned my ramble button on...
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#19 Jan 23 2008 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually like dragoon, it is one of the misunderstood melee job. My comment was targeted to those oh so high and mighty elitist melee (example: warrior, ninja, monk/ninja) who pretty much shun every other jobs. The one who "LOL dragoon", or disband just because you have a paladin tank instead of ninja. You know who they are...
#20 Jan 23 2008 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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luvbunnies wrote:
I have an enormous chip on my shoulder regarding melee classes in FFXI. It probably stems from back when I tried to level DRG or DRK before Aht Urghan came out and no one would invite me for 4 straight hours! Oh, also, I have trouble farming to raise money for equipment necessary to my job class. It's hard to make gil!


I'm normally not one to initiate flame attacks, but luvbunnies, can you QQ any more about your dislike of an entire group of people?

This is supposed to be a discussion of Scholar's applications in parties, not your soapbox to **** and moan about why those mean awful "elitist" melee players regularly kick your puppy. Your entire entrance to this thread was to give a textual reach around to another myoptic player who shares your BAWWWWW affection against melee classes, and it's certainly not needed in this thread or in this forum.

Contribute or go away.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 11:07am by Acturus
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#21 Jan 23 2008 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you delusional, I did not write that quote... And FYI I never ever have to wait for invite, cuz you know, bard and rdm are like, always wanted in a party. Duo or Trio is also an option. And I make my own party, and when I do that, I will most definitely invite Plds, Drgs, Thiefs, Pup, Dark, Bst, Blm, Whms and all those other jobs who normally being shunned out of xp or merit party just because it's not the hottest job right now. And btw Scholar is great, maybe most people still not quite sure what role or why would you invite one, but overall the ability to switch roles in a pinch is a positive things since you can always fill the other mage role with almost any other mage jobs available who is seeking. it's the elitist who only want to fill their party with "certain jobs" and nothing else that ****** me off.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 3:55pm by luvbunnies
#22 Jan 31 2008 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Back on topic of the original post, I was actually going to post something similar. I've spent the past few days soloing SCH from 1 to 15 and plan on taking it to the dunes tonight. Now, I know I'll enjoy leveling the job, I have no problem with that. I'll enjoy it if I'm main healing, I'll enjoy it if I'm nuking, I'll enjoy it if it's a little of both.

Here's where I'm having a problem, though: SCH seems to be good at both the basic skills of WHM and BLM, but not so great at either, and SCH lacks a lot of the secondary spells (Haste being the most apparent). Why invite a SCH if you want a healer if there's a WHM available? Why invite an SCH if you want a nuker if there's a BLM available (or at all past 55, as seems to be the annoying trend). SCH really can't fill the role of support that a RDM, BRD, or COR fills, as there's no Refresh or the before mentioned Haste. The weather spells sound nice, but how do they really differ in effect to a BRD's threnody songs (this may just be my own ignorance here). I think the problem that I'm having is that SCH sounds good, but right now lacks something that really makes you say "Yeah, invite that SCH.".

I'll end this by saying that I really want to level Scholar, I just don't want to regret leveling it when I could be leveling a job that I'll feel more useful playing in the end. I'm not sure that came out right, but I can't think of how to word it better.
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#23 Jan 31 2008 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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It's the same dilemma really, like, why invite SMN when there is WHM seeking, or why bother with Corsair when there is Bard, or why even invite Whm when there is a Rdm, why bother getting Pld when there are Ninja seeking, and why even invite Dancer at all when there are plenty of other jobs who can heal. I am still quite not sure why scholar lol, but I suppose if you need a healer type job who is just as good at nuking and there is no one else seeking, Sch can work for the role. Maybe they will tweak it with the next update or in the future? and adding more defining spells, right now you have the DoT and weather spells plus all those job abilities. The duality of Scholar is very interesting, and the subjob affect it a lot and give you more options. The problem is once you are in ToAU and everyone wants to do TP burning set up, any mage jobs are pretty much screwed.

To understand what is the role of SCH, look at the following:
Healer: this is where SCH probably will compete the most, with WHM, SMN and to some extend RDM/WHM. The only drawback of SCH is not having haste within their spell repertoire since all the other mages that compete for this spot do have haste (and pretty much reduced to a cure bot and haste bot at merit party).

Magic DD: SCH can fill this role better than a RDM, so in essence they are only competing with BLM and BLU. Even for manaburn party, the inability to sleep the mob might be a hindrance (plus the mob also die so fast if you have 4 other blms).

Buffer: Unfortunately RDM is still the best enfeebler, with BLU trailing behind, and to some extend BLM. The helix and weather spells are nice, but ToAU mobs do not live for long that you end up using it (if you ever get a chance) for every other battle (due to 2 mnts recast). I can see that SE will fix this in the future since at this point, these spells are not xp party friendly.

Refresher: Well as much as I would love to have access to this spell, it would further reduce SCH to another bot role. As for now, RDM, BARD and COR are the ultimate trinity when it comes to powering up the party with these 3 "deluxe" jobs.

Pretty much as a party leader you end up thinking why Scholar and what can the job bring to the party? I suppose the answer would be, what are the available jobs that are seeking right now, since Scholar can easily fill the role of healer and magical DD (and to some extend buffing the party at later lvl with phalanx and stoneskin). If the player knows how to play the dual role, SCH could be a nice alternative paired with every other mage jobs (and still the lack of haste could be seen as negative).
Edited, Feb 1st 2008 2:07am by luvbunnies

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 12:54pm by luvbunnies
#24 Feb 01 2008 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Also consider that at lower lvls, there are still a big shortage of healers (even at midlevels). The ones who are seeking could be a bunch of inexperienced players leveling their first jobs on WHM, BLM, or RDM. If you are making a lower lvl party, you probably better off with an experienced veteran players who level scholar since most of them probably have leveled other mage jobs and understand what healing (and conserve mp means). At lower lvls SCH is better than WHM (assuming you get a player who can dual role the job), at least before lvl 41, Scholar can fill the healer role (and blm role) very easily. It gives you more flexibility when making a party. Heck 3 dancer, a monk, a bard and a scholar can works extremely well and reducing the need of ever having a noob tank...

We all should be grateful that SE finally gets it right with the last two new jobs. They are so powerful and useful, it is not even a joke, each jobs are extremely potent as a main and even super useful as a sub. Scholar is great sub for every other whm, rdms, smns and blms out there!! And let's not even mentioning dancer.... it is one of the BEST job they ever created in a long long long long time.

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 1:06pm by luvbunnies
#25 Feb 02 2008 at 1:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mythe wrote:
So I am lv12 scholar. When I started playing this game again like month a two ago I decided I wanted scholar to be my main job to level 75. Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too. I know that i am still low right now but I'm wondering what is so good about a scholar? We learn every spell slower then whm or blm. Like learning Cure II 6 levels behind a whm and fire 3 levels behind a blm. So what I want to know is there something I am not noticing that makes scholar different or better then a whm or blm? Also i know we get storm spells in the 40s but does that even help us to we get helix spells in the 60s? Why would anyone want a scholar in the group before 60s?


What makes them different is they are pretty good at both not just one. SCH is a good healer and a solid #2 at magic damage. I would not jump the gun on SCH like so many have, the patch is going to do nothing but help them. Pre 60 people do still fight things with MB.. well lets say pre 54ish but still. And last time I checked getting a solid magic user is less and less these days pre merit levels, so sch has a lot of uses for invites. Mostly just level it because it is fun for you =D
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#26 Feb 02 2008 at 1:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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And last time I checked getting a solid magic user is less and less these days pre merit levels, so sch has a lot of uses for invites. Mostly just level it because it is fun for you =D


The real unfortunate part really (and in more than one reason partly SE's fault) is that it's hard to find just about any key jobs to join parties these days. I went mad trying to find tanks to join my parties at levels up until level 50. PLD and NINs were hardly seeking and you struck the jackpot of you managed to get one. Most of the time, I ended up going with WAR, and even then they were pretty hard to find. Can't really explain why, but I sure ended up with a good amount of SAM tanks.
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