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why scholarFollow

#1 Jan 16 2008 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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So I am lv12 scholar. When I started playing this game again like month a two ago I decided I wanted scholar to be my main job to level 75. Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too. I know that i am still low right now but I'm wondering what is so good about a scholar? We learn every spell slower then whm or blm. Like learning Cure II 6 levels behind a whm and fire 3 levels behind a blm. So what I want to know is there something I am not noticing that makes scholar different or better then a whm or blm? Also i know we get storm spells in the 40s but does that even help us to we get helix spells in the 60s? Why would anyone want a scholar in the group before 60s?
#2 Jan 16 2008 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty much the same reason people invite SMN pre 70. SMN and SCH have good DD potential earlier levels.. but most people look at it as a substandard whm until then.
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#3 Jan 16 2008 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm leveling SCH myself actually and am very pleased with the results. You're only level 12, and honestly, I think the first 14-16 levels of SCH are the worst really.

Quote:
We learn every spell slower then whm or blm.


We learn every spell slower than WHM or BLM, but we do learn both and can use both with natural skill level, which no WHM or BLM can claim.

Quote:
Pretty much the same reason people invite SMN pre 70. SMN and SCH have good DD potential earlier levels.. but most people look at it as a substandard whm until then.


People can make their own claims about their ability to nuke, but speaking as a main healer myself, I think, in many ways, SCH is more MP efficient than WHM, or SCH's more comparable counterpart SMN (or rather, especially more MP efficient than SMN). SCH gets Regen II and Accession. Against dragonflies in the Crawler's Nest, whenever they used that damned Cursed Sphere thingy move or whatever, I would run and give the entire party Regen II. It was sufficient to keep the party alive and bring them back to full health and I didn't generate as much emnity as if I had cast the comparable amount of Curaga. Or now I'm giving my party Stoneskin. I may not have Refresh, but with everybody having Stoneskin, I can usually rest up a sufficient amount of MP before I even have to start healing people. Being able to Aspir mobs with MP is a huge plus to keeping my MP up.

I don't think SCH is a substandard WHM at all. In fact, depending on the situation, I think it might even be better than WHM.

As for the weather spells, it is my observation that they make a noticeable difference in nuke damage. I usually cast a weather spell on myself if I'm intending to cast the same nuke more than once in that battle.

EDIT: Admittedly, the biggest damning thing against SCH is the lack of Haste. But I'm level 61 now and people don't shy away from me for a spot in their party just because of it (although among my level range, I kind of have a reputation as being good since the inviters are always repeat inviters. When I come back in March and nobody in my level range knows me, I can't really say...)

Edited, Jan 16th 2008 3:35pm by Ketaru
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#4 Jan 17 2008 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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To be perfectly honest with you I am in the same boat. Looking at the job description as of right now I can't yet justify the time and effort to unlock this job let alone level it through the Dunes, Qufim, the Jungles, and the Batcave all over again to sub on RDM, bringing up my silly Dark magic skill and opening up the coveted Regen II. Even though I giggle wildly every time I think of the ridiculous mp to hp healed ratio of that wonderful spell, I'm afraid I can't stomach another 40 odd levels of magery (BLM and WHM subs fully leveled). However, this is a matter of personal preference.

Somewhere between me fully meriting out my WAR/NIN and getting my THF Homam and a Blau I realized that I needn't bother meriting on my RDM (read: main heal) any more because I can pretty much demolish Joe Pick-up DD in any rooster-waving damage fight whilst blinking away the hits that would have inevitably hit him square on his shihei conserving "it's too expensive" arse. Dear God it sounds like he's saying main healing is beneath him! BLASPHEMY! Call me an elitist if you must, but as a timer-counting, refresh/haste cycle bouncing, link-sleeping Red Mage turned "gear-whore" melee (apparently melee => mage doesn't transition nearly as well) I can honestly say that I would contribute more to a party as a melee than as mage purely because of smart gear/food decisions and fast use of cooldowns and shadows. Not to knock the hard working mages of Vana'diel, your contributions are invaluable to making the party run smoothly, but everyone has their own personal "dear god is he really wearing that" melee DD horror stories to share. No amount of on-the-dot hasting, Dia3 casting, gravity landing is going to elevate no food Thief tp-ing in Assassin's armlets, thief knife, and TRIPLE DAGGER out of the pit of the TH whoring that spawned her. On the other hand, gear choices and food are not nearly as detrimental to a mage's performance provided they can hit a Cure/Regen macro (pains me to say this, but haste and status cures are for the big kids. Seriously, I dance a little inside every time I get haste and it makes me feel… so cold and empty…)

With that being said, bear in mind that I've said this knowing full well that this is the Scholar forum, and as much as I personally would not like to level the job as of right now, this is in no way an attack on the job as a whole. Compared to its flashier, sexier WotG cousin Dancer (although this may change when the Mithran schoolgirls start running about), Scholar seems like a drab bookish redress of the standard colorful mage fare, but beneath this deceptively shy exterior beats the heart of the most beautiful, ravishing job to date! (It’s not you, it’s me…) Well, OK, maybe not beautiful… kinda cute with youthful exuberance is more like it…

… Moving on…

Scholar’s youth is exactly the thing the excuses the flaws that it has. Having only been out for nary a blip on the FFXI timeline as part of an expansion pack that feels more like something the development team threw together on their lunch break and released figuring they could just patch it up after they secured our cash, it is easy to forgive the ineffectiveness of Scholar’s few exclusive spells and its lack of buffs like Haste and Stoneskin. (Stoneskin is an issue for BLM’s who want to /SCH for 1337 AoE’s and stuff) All of this will likely be fixed in the coming months (unless weather effects actually have some as of yet unseen effect on stats other than randomly boosting elemental damage and triggering Sea Obis). In addition to that, the nuking effects of the Helixes are hard to capture due to their DoTtie nature (har a pun), and I hear that AoE enspells seem to be hitting 50% resist rate at a strangely high rate. For now, just enjoy Scholar for what it is: an extra mp efficient BLM or WHM surrogate depending on what book you happen to be lugging about at the time that trades a few nice spells like Haste for a bag of magic tricks. Play it if you liked or would probably like either of those jobs, but don’t be surprised if you are asked to switch roles on the fly. To be honest, if SE tacked on Refresh and some enfeebles to scholar it would feel like what Red Mage could’ve been, a testament to godlike mp-efficiency (/glee) if it wasn’t so burdened by its “B sword skill which is apparently SE’s way of saying go ahead and feed the mob some TP.” In the mean time I will be farming for the next piece of godlike gear. I hear that once I become melee Jesus in a video game my dad will love me. :(
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#5 Jan 17 2008 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
With that being said, bear in mind that I've said this knowing full well that this is the Scholar forum, and as much as I personally would not like to level the job as of right now, this is in no way an attack on the job as a whole. Compared to its flashier, sexier WotG cousin Dancer (although this may change when the Mithran schoolgirls start running about), Scholar seems like a drab bookish redress of the standard colorful mage fare, but beneath this deceptively shy exterior beats the heart of the most beautiful, ravishing job to date! (It’s not you, it’s me…) Well, OK, maybe not beautiful… kinda cute with youthful exuberance is more like it…


Then dont?

Quote:
Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too


Stop playing the job?

.

Quite a bit of words...not that much to say.
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#6 Jan 17 2008 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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No offense, Amoeba, but all I could really gather from your post was:

I don't like leveling mage jobs anymore, filler filler, melee jobs are harder to pull off, etc. etc., something about SCH being a failed RDM and RDM not deserving its melee skills.
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#7 Jan 17 2008 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Mythe wrote:
why scholar
why post


This thread sucks. There are more pressing issues than "why invite a scholar?" For example: why should we invite someone too dumb to know the advantages of a hybrid class?

I wish we could do a /sea all IQ 100-250 when searching for a party.
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#8 Jan 18 2008 at 4:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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if you could do that, i'd never get any parties
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#9 Jan 18 2008 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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My response is pretty shallow.

I want to see my mithra in SCH AF.. Plus i've got merits that are useful for it =)
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#10 Jan 18 2008 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are more pressing issues than "why invite a scholar?" For example: why should we invite someone too dumb to know the advantages of a hybrid class?


I would rather see the disadvantages because it's always the disadvantages that holds a party back.

The why this game is played now, you really don't need much in ways of team work. Meaning, the guy you invite don't necessary need to know how a hybrid class work in order for that guy to excel in his role.

Edited, Jan 18th 2008 11:28pm by taishokukanoki
#11 Jan 21 2008 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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This game is full of people wanting to level as fast as possible. I can pretty much guarantee you EVERYONE would want the party to consist of 4 war/nin brd and whm.
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#12 Jan 22 2008 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
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To Amoebadoom..... I hate melee DD, it is one of the most stupid worthless job in FFXI. Maybe not worthless but pretty dumb to play. Your ability to contribute DD is solely based on your gear, and your tp feed and your macro spamming WS, even a monkey can press the same button once the tp number hits 100. No strategy, no thinking, nothing is required of you other than spamming your WS, pretty much gloating and boasting your such and such weapons. Melee DD can't solo too well against some of the NM in FFXI, you are not too great even against the mob in campaign, I am sorry but without mages helping you with cure and haste you are nothing but a meatshield, Your usefulness is done the minute your hp reach zero. Smn and Rdm can outtank you, and probably contribute way a lot more to the party, and 5 times more useful when it comes to kiting. Blm out solo you, and even dancer can outlast and outank warriors.

I am hoping WoTG will be the expansion that finally turns the tide against the idiotic tp burn party and finally give mages the upper hand when it comes to gears and opportunity. The mages of Vanadiel contribute far more when it comes to xp party, without us, all melee DDs are pretty much worthless pile of meatshield who can't even take care of their own in xp party.
#13 Jan 22 2008 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I am hoping WoTG will be the expansion that finally turns the tide against the idiotic tp burn party and finally give mages the upper hand when it comes to gears and opportunity. The mages of Vanadiel contribute far more when it comes to xp party, without us, all melee DDs are pretty much worthless pile of meatshield who can't even take care of their own in xp party.


1. Doesnt that go for mages as well then? Without the Melee being up there to keep the mobs off of the mages, mages are pretty much screwed

2. TP Burn > You.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:17pm by Mezzura
#14 Jan 22 2008 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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No my dear, melee DD need mages more than we mages need you as melee DD. We have quite a few tank choices. And certain jobs can be geared into DD, and let's not forget we do have BLMs. So yes we can pretty much survive without you. But without bard and rdm, you melee DD and your tp burn party are screwed... get it??? SCREWED!!! Big time. We mages have more options when it comes to party, we can survive without one single melee DD and survive well. The tp burn party CANNOT and will not exist without bard and rdm, both are vital to keep the party going and manage link.

Without the mages keeping you alive, you don't even have a chance in hell trying to get your hands on your oh so awesome gears from the sky. Or beating CoP (which all mages party namely all smn party can win CoP pretty much most of it without needing one melee DD at all). As melee DD you need the tank (yes even Paladin tank) and mages more so than the mages need you.

All summoner alliance coupled with Rdms, Bards, Blms, Scholars, and Whms can pretty much handles everything in the game without melee DDs.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:35pm by luvbunnies

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 5:50pm by luvbunnies
#15 Jan 22 2008 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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1. /nin does wonders

2. 6 DRG, 3(or all 6 if you so wish) /whm, rdm, blm, or blu,
3 /war, thf, or nin.


Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 8:47pm by Mezzura
#16 Jan 22 2008 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't have anything against mages, as I am both a RDM and a BRD, and started the game as a RDM but:
luvbunnies wrote:
The tp burn party CANNOT and will not exist without bard and rdm, both are vital to keep the party going and manage link.

Not true, my favorite type of burn involves no mages(main job anyway), 2-3 DRG/mage and the rest melee. I've done em with brds and cors as well, but still, works very very fast and just as well without em on G.Colibri. Links aren't a problem, we had 3 on us at once easily, no need to sleep, just make sure each are on a separate person and you can keep everyone healed spamming healing breath.

Now this won't work much other places due to aoe and high damage enemy ws(well, it can, but isn't as fast as other tp burn and as drg burn at colibri, I've done drg burns vs mamool and weapons in sky too) but it can be done, so never use absolutes. There is always an exception. I also agree with you saying mages are needed in other places, but so are melees for most strats. All smn strats will work, but generally those are more extremist type things, and besides, by the same token you'd want melee's abilities weakened by WoTG, they could just make NMs that only melees can do well against :P

Also, only some Melee DD are button mashing. In a DRG burn like I mentioned, the DRG/mages have to watch hp while doing damage, certainly not a hard thing at all, but involves some thinking. DRGs are quite potent soloers too, as are NINs. THF can do pretty well too, and is anything but button mashing to pull off correctly. Trying to position yourself correctly around an always turning mob, with other melees who don't want you to trick attack on them, knowing when to save your feints, when and what ws to use etc. Sounds to me like you're bashing a class you haven't played.

I enjoy the technical play and strat of mage classes, but they can get just a repetitious as some DD classes if all you do is the same thing over and over, as some mages do, or have to do. Melee DD and Mage can both be technically inclined, and both be rather button mashing, its up to how you play it.

In all honesty though, theres no reason to be arguing over something petty like this, lets leave it at we need one another, because as either, I like having the other around, for the most part.

Statement correction, said colibri instead of weapons

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 11:00pm by Souji
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#17 Jan 22 2008 at 5:55 PM Rating: Default
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Seems I beat you to the DRG comment Souji ;-)

And, good post, Rate up.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 8:56pm by Mezzura
#18 Jan 22 2008 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hehe, thats what happens when you type a book as a reply... sometimes I forget I turned my ramble button on...
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#19 Jan 23 2008 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually like dragoon, it is one of the misunderstood melee job. My comment was targeted to those oh so high and mighty elitist melee (example: warrior, ninja, monk/ninja) who pretty much shun every other jobs. The one who "LOL dragoon", or disband just because you have a paladin tank instead of ninja. You know who they are...
#20 Jan 23 2008 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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luvbunnies wrote:
I have an enormous chip on my shoulder regarding melee classes in FFXI. It probably stems from back when I tried to level DRG or DRK before Aht Urghan came out and no one would invite me for 4 straight hours! Oh, also, I have trouble farming to raise money for equipment necessary to my job class. It's hard to make gil!


I'm normally not one to initiate flame attacks, but luvbunnies, can you QQ any more about your dislike of an entire group of people?

This is supposed to be a discussion of Scholar's applications in parties, not your soapbox to piss and moan about why those mean awful "elitist" melee players regularly kick your puppy. Your entire entrance to this thread was to give a textual reach around to another myoptic player who shares your BAWWWWW affection against melee classes, and it's certainly not needed in this thread or in this forum.

Contribute or go away.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 11:07am by Acturus
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#21 Jan 23 2008 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you delusional, I did not write that quote... And FYI I never ever have to wait for invite, cuz you know, bard and rdm are like, always wanted in a party. Duo or Trio is also an option. And I make my own party, and when I do that, I will most definitely invite Plds, Drgs, Thiefs, Pup, Dark, Bst, Blm, Whms and all those other jobs who normally being shunned out of xp or merit party just because it's not the hottest job right now. And btw Scholar is great, maybe most people still not quite sure what role or why would you invite one, but overall the ability to switch roles in a pinch is a positive things since you can always fill the other mage role with almost any other mage jobs available who is seeking. it's the elitist who only want to fill their party with "certain jobs" and nothing else that pisses me off.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 3:55pm by luvbunnies
#22 Jan 31 2008 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Back on topic of the original post, I was actually going to post something similar. I've spent the past few days soloing SCH from 1 to 15 and plan on taking it to the dunes tonight. Now, I know I'll enjoy leveling the job, I have no problem with that. I'll enjoy it if I'm main healing, I'll enjoy it if I'm nuking, I'll enjoy it if it's a little of both.

Here's where I'm having a problem, though: SCH seems to be good at both the basic skills of WHM and BLM, but not so great at either, and SCH lacks a lot of the secondary spells (Haste being the most apparent). Why invite a SCH if you want a healer if there's a WHM available? Why invite an SCH if you want a nuker if there's a BLM available (or at all past 55, as seems to be the annoying trend). SCH really can't fill the role of support that a RDM, BRD, or COR fills, as there's no Refresh or the before mentioned Haste. The weather spells sound nice, but how do they really differ in effect to a BRD's threnody songs (this may just be my own ignorance here). I think the problem that I'm having is that SCH sounds good, but right now lacks something that really makes you say "Yeah, invite that SCH.".

I'll end this by saying that I really want to level Scholar, I just don't want to regret leveling it when I could be leveling a job that I'll feel more useful playing in the end. I'm not sure that came out right, but I can't think of how to word it better.
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#23 Jan 31 2008 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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It's the same dilemma really, like, why invite SMN when there is WHM seeking, or why bother with Corsair when there is Bard, or why even invite Whm when there is a Rdm, why bother getting Pld when there are Ninja seeking, and why even invite Dancer at all when there are plenty of other jobs who can heal. I am still quite not sure why scholar lol, but I suppose if you need a healer type job who is just as good at nuking and there is no one else seeking, Sch can work for the role. Maybe they will tweak it with the next update or in the future? and adding more defining spells, right now you have the DoT and weather spells plus all those job abilities. The duality of Scholar is very interesting, and the subjob affect it a lot and give you more options. The problem is once you are in ToAU and everyone wants to do TP burning set up, any mage jobs are pretty much screwed.

To understand what is the role of SCH, look at the following:
Healer: this is where SCH probably will compete the most, with WHM, SMN and to some extend RDM/WHM. The only drawback of SCH is not having haste within their spell repertoire since all the other mages that compete for this spot do have haste (and pretty much reduced to a cure bot and haste bot at merit party).

Magic DD: SCH can fill this role better than a RDM, so in essence they are only competing with BLM and BLU. Even for manaburn party, the inability to sleep the mob might be a hindrance (plus the mob also die so fast if you have 4 other blms).

Buffer: Unfortunately RDM is still the best enfeebler, with BLU trailing behind, and to some extend BLM. The helix and weather spells are nice, but ToAU mobs do not live for long that you end up using it (if you ever get a chance) for every other battle (due to 2 mnts recast). I can see that SE will fix this in the future since at this point, these spells are not xp party friendly.

Refresher: Well as much as I would love to have access to this spell, it would further reduce SCH to another bot role. As for now, RDM, BARD and COR are the ultimate trinity when it comes to powering up the party with these 3 "deluxe" jobs.

Pretty much as a party leader you end up thinking why Scholar and what can the job bring to the party? I suppose the answer would be, what are the available jobs that are seeking right now, since Scholar can easily fill the role of healer and magical DD (and to some extend buffing the party at later lvl with phalanx and stoneskin). If the player knows how to play the dual role, SCH could be a nice alternative paired with every other mage jobs (and still the lack of haste could be seen as negative).
Edited, Feb 1st 2008 2:07am by luvbunnies

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 12:54pm by luvbunnies
#24 Feb 01 2008 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Also consider that at lower lvls, there are still a big shortage of healers (even at midlevels). The ones who are seeking could be a bunch of inexperienced players leveling their first jobs on WHM, BLM, or RDM. If you are making a lower lvl party, you probably better off with an experienced veteran players who level scholar since most of them probably have leveled other mage jobs and understand what healing (and conserve mp means). At lower lvls SCH is better than WHM (assuming you get a player who can dual role the job), at least before lvl 41, Scholar can fill the healer role (and blm role) very easily. It gives you more flexibility when making a party. Heck 3 dancer, a monk, a bard and a scholar can works extremely well and reducing the need of ever having a noob tank...

We all should be grateful that SE finally gets it right with the last two new jobs. They are so powerful and useful, it is not even a joke, each jobs are extremely potent as a main and even super useful as a sub. Scholar is great sub for every other whm, rdms, smns and blms out there!! And let's not even mentioning dancer.... it is one of the BEST job they ever created in a long long long long time.

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 1:06pm by luvbunnies
#25 Feb 02 2008 at 1:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mythe wrote:
So I am lv12 scholar. When I started playing this game again like month a two ago I decided I wanted scholar to be my main job to level 75. Right now I just can't figure out why I thought scholar was so cool. I was really hyped on playing a scholar too. I know that i am still low right now but I'm wondering what is so good about a scholar? We learn every spell slower then whm or blm. Like learning Cure II 6 levels behind a whm and fire 3 levels behind a blm. So what I want to know is there something I am not noticing that makes scholar different or better then a whm or blm? Also i know we get storm spells in the 40s but does that even help us to we get helix spells in the 60s? Why would anyone want a scholar in the group before 60s?


What makes them different is they are pretty good at both not just one. SCH is a good healer and a solid #2 at magic damage. I would not jump the gun on SCH like so many have, the patch is going to do nothing but help them. Pre 60 people do still fight things with MB.. well lets say pre 54ish but still. And last time I checked getting a solid magic user is less and less these days pre merit levels, so sch has a lot of uses for invites. Mostly just level it because it is fun for you =D
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#26 Feb 02 2008 at 1:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And last time I checked getting a solid magic user is less and less these days pre merit levels, so sch has a lot of uses for invites. Mostly just level it because it is fun for you =D


The real unfortunate part really (and in more than one reason partly SE's fault) is that it's hard to find just about any key jobs to join parties these days. I went mad trying to find tanks to join my parties at levels up until level 50. PLD and NINs were hardly seeking and you struck the jackpot of you managed to get one. Most of the time, I ended up going with WAR, and even then they were pretty hard to find. Can't really explain why, but I sure ended up with a good amount of SAM tanks.
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#27 Feb 02 2008 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I actually like dragoon, it is one of the misunderstood melee job. My comment was targeted to those oh so high and mighty elitist melee (example: warrior, ninja, monk/ninja) who pretty much shun every other jobs. The one who "LOL dragoon", or disband just because you have a paladin tank instead of ninja. You know who they are...


If you're going to judge WARs, NINs, and MNKs based solely on their job, you're no better than the elitists that you don't like.

Believe it or not, but lvling war, mnk, or nin does NOT instantly make you an elitist #$%^.

Oh, and let's not forget the brds and rdms that only party with the 'best' set-ups. It's not just the fault of the melees.
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#28luvbunnies, Posted: Feb 04 2008 at 8:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's like this you know, most player would be glad that someone would decided to be a leader, start inviting, and make a party, because we all know, most of us rather just accept the invite and have the party set for us. As scholar (which competes with almost 3 other mages for the same slot), we probably have to end up making our own party, partly because most new players (especially at lower lvls) don't really know what the job brings to the party, and pretty much pigeon hole us as a healer (and nothing but a cure bot). Now I am not single out those wars, ninjas and monks, but I am sure you come across many of those especially at merit party who will drop out from your party set up the minute they see, OMG LOL Dragoon and Puppetmaster is in the party set up, and Beastmaster... this party must sucks, disband.... Not knowing that those LOL jobs are actually quite good.
#29 Feb 05 2008 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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luvbunnies wrote:
if your party can make it work, even Scholar/dancer can be a cure bot lol with both mp and tp
No. You're dumb.



luvbunnies wrote:
As scholar (which competes with almost 3 other mages for multiple slots)
Fixed.

SCH isn't fighting for just a healing slot. It's also fighting for a backup heal + DD slot. This means if your party already has a healer and no other mages are seeking, it may be desirable to get a SCH for DD and healing redundancy. As a result, the invites aren't as bad as projected.

You have to look at the whole picture. Typical lower xp-parties have two mages in them. The first mage slot you'll be competing for against RDM, WHM, and SMN, as you've noted. What you failed to recognize was the second slot.

Scenario 1: RDM is chosen. You already have haste, so a WHM or SMN isn't needed for it. You also have some healing, so a full healer isn't needed. WHM is out. It's going to come down to SCH vs SMN and the SMN's haste is not needed.

Scenario 2: RDM was not available, so WHM was chosen. Again, it's SCH vs SMN and haste is not needed.

Scenario 3: Neither RDM nor WHM was available. Both the SMN and SCH will be taken.



You may also be fighting with DNCs over that second slot. It could be a toss up there. If you have a refresher, I'd probably favor the SCH though. The point where it gets crappy is colibri levels, where SMN, DNC, or even PUP become more desirable for that second slot. Most mages suck horribly at managing their MP, so you'll probably need two still, even though colibri are easy as hell to main heal for. Fortunately party leaders are dumb, and will still invite the scholars first, as long as they already have haste. You'll also get tons of invites from noob SMNs and BLMs if you put "main healing - ok" in your search comment (no joke, I had at least a dozen -.-).

So yes, it's true there are three other healers. This isn't as crippling as you make it sound though.
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#30 Feb 06 2008 at 2:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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So, uh... anyway...

I'm new to FFXI, and I was wondering: will subbing WHM or BLM as a scholar get me less invites due to the fact that I'm more specialized in a certain area than, say, a SCH/RDM?
#31 Feb 06 2008 at 5:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Akrelt wrote:
So, uh... anyway...

I'm new to FFXI, and I was wondering: will subbing WHM or BLM as a scholar get me less invites due to the fact that I'm more specialized in a certain area than, say, a SCH/RDM?

Yes and no. From a community perception point of view, subbing WHM tends to have people believe that you are more willing to assume the healer's role. Subbing BLM could influece some party leaders to believe that you might complain about healing and could potentially overlook you.

It has little to do with your actual capabilities. It's really just a perception thing, and perceptions change with every player.

Subbing WHM or BLM or RDM is done to increase the utility of your main job. Each subjob helps you specialize your main job a little, and while none of these subjobs will take away from any function your SCH could perform, they will enhance bits and pieces of what your SCH can do.

This is why many veteran players encourage newer players to take the time and level all possible subjobs. That way, when the SCH gets an invite, he can communicate with the party leader before leaving town (I know it's not always possible) and tailor his subjob to benefit the party.
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#32luvbunnies, Posted: Feb 07 2008 at 12:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No I am not dumb. What is dumb is the stupid closed minded mentality of yours. Dancer sub is perfectly fine for small party of 3 fighting Tough mob, even duo. Especially if you do it in the past where you can get refresh bonus. Again, the subjobs are there for you to exploit!! and explore!! Always falling back to cookie cutter set and lacking the creativity to push the boundaries of your jobs is dumb. You have brains, work it!! Duoing in the past are extremely doable and in some instances you get about the same xp as normal xp party, especially at lower lvls where you have to deal with several people who are still new with the game or still learning their jobs.
#33 Feb 12 2008 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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1,975 posts
luvbunnies wrote:
No I am not dumb. What is dumb is the stupid closed minded mentality of yours. Dancer sub is perfectly fine for small party of 3 fighting Tough mob, even duo. Especially if you do it in the past where you can get refresh bonus. Again, the subjobs are there for you to exploit!! and explore!! Always falling back to cookie cutter set and lacking the creativity to push the boundaries of your jobs is dumb. You have brains, work it!! Duoing in the past are extremely doable and in some instances you get about the same xp as normal xp party, especially at lower lvls where you have to deal with several people who are still new with the game or still learning their jobs.
SCH/DNC is fail, and so are people who mistake "open minded" ideas for good ones. Just because you are unique, does not mean you are useful. You posted a large reply that did nothing to support your opinion of why a dancer sub would be favored over a mage sub. Also, having a refresh bonus is no more of an excuse to melee. With or without it, you're still losing the potential to rest. Resting MP translates into additional nukes or healing, which will most likely outclass the healing and damage potential of /DNC for all but the lowest of levels.

luvbunnies wrote:
As for competing slots goes, unfortunately Rdm is always for some reasons choosed as top priority, and then Bard, or Corsair. After that most party leader would go down the list of every other mage who can heal. ToAU camp can be harsh for Scholar and Blms, though all hope is not lost since the versatility of Scholar main and sub is its winning points. With the lack of refresher jobs and often now, the lack of healer job period, a Scholar can do amazing job as main healer, even a Blm with Scholar sub might benefit especially in xp party since Dark/Light arts save them 10% mp, which pretty much what you get should you have refresh on (beside you already have auto refresh, and maybe auto refresh gear). So in essence you don't really need a refresher, unless you have a Pld tank (though a Pld who take up cooking can easily scratch refresher - melon juice + auto refresh + sanction refresh).
The reasons RDM is chosen:
  • Refresh is 150 MP per person. There are usually at least two people in the party who have MP.
  • Convert immediately gives a crapload of MP, without the need to rest.
  • And haste. Yeah. People love it.
  • It also has tons of enfeebles natively, as well as crowd control spells (sleep, bind, gravity).
You're right though. Usually refresh isn't needed at all to be successful. It's infuriating when party members act like all hope is lost if there's no RDM or BRD seeking.

luvbunnies wrote:
You have to keep in mind that refresh only give you back 150 mp, Scholar sub will save a lot more mp right off the bat. Plus the job ability itself which half the cost of mp casted for such mp heavy spells, like Freeze (307 mp) already make up the lack of refresh.
In order to save 150 MP, you would have to use 1500 MP in under two and a half minutes (the duration of refresh). You may want to check your math there chief. Also, keep in mind that you can refresh other people, and that RDM has convert and haste as well.

Edited, Feb 12th 2008 11:37am by Nateypoo
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#34 Feb 12 2008 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
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As a BLM i will just say that SCH never deserved to ahve anywhere near the nuking power of a BLM as they are allowed to already have both skills. It is bad >.>..;

Anyways I came to this thread hoping it would be a thread talking about what the good/bad us of leveling SCH >.>..; and I found it to basicly turn out to be a RDM without refresh ><... and some fancy helix and storm spells (Storm is useful, I won't doubt)... Nice party members >< but not nice sub sadly ; - ;...

#35 Feb 15 2008 at 6:40 AM Rating: Default
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Actually my dear, last night I made a party in King Ranperre Tomb. We started with the normal traditional party of PLD, RDM, Drgn, Thief, Dancer and Scholar. Then the PLD left, so I thought let's get another dancer and have both of em dual tank. It works flawlessly. Then the rdm had to leave. And I invited another thief. 2 Dancer, 2 Thief, Dragoon and Scholar. It works beyond perfect. Better set up than a PLD, Ninja or whatever tank you want to throw in. The mob die extremely fast that we constantly run out of them and clean up the whole bats camp and had to kill the worms. We started as 52-54 and stayed there till 55-56 (exp started to drop at 56 but not too bad). Dancer is amazing, but what is amazing is that we had a set of people who thinks outside the box.

Now as for Scholar subbing Dancer, probably not the best idea I agree. Good only for situational set up. But overall Whm or Blm sub is better for party set up. It only works better at smaller party set up, or duo, and fighting even match or tough. I did it at lower lvls, exp-ing in the past. By no means this should be a trend for Scholar trying to xp in normal party. Even with dancer sub I rest occasionally for MP. As for your RDM argument, well of course RDM is not a bad job to have, it is a great job, you only have to deal with bad players who are clueless on how to play the job. I am only stating opinion on how to come up with different solution when the tank is scarce or non existent or when you cannot find ANY Rdm or Bard or Corsair. Refresh is nice but it is not a MUST. FFXI has plenty of jobs combination and tons of mobs to xp, surely you could come up with some alternatives?

As for the MP savings. At lvl 40, Scholar will get 2 charges every 4 minutes. The mp savings will start to show up greatly when you get the higher levels nuke spells. You also failed to see that regen2ga is a lot cheaper to cast with strategems, and draw a lot less hate when your party is hit with an AOE. I am not saying refresh is bad but as Scholar you can get away without having one more so than a Whm or Blm. If a Blm is subbing Scholar, at 50, he/she can get a saving of 50% mp of Freeze every 4 mnts, plus 10% mp saved over all the spells casted with dark arts. Refresh is still nice, but now with a Scholar, main or sub, you can get by without having one and it become less penalizing for not having one.

So there.... for all of you who is complaining the lack of tank. Think OUTSIDE the box, learn which mob weak to what, exploit it. Our set up works because bats is weak to Viper Bite, Dagger and Piercing damage, plus the Dragoon can constantly shed hate. We had two dragoon coming and replacing each other, both of them wait to do their SC until Viper Bite was dealt to one of the dancer, usually the damage is around 400-700. Curing Waltz is not stoppable unless you get stun or paralyzed so that works well, both Dancers can get rid of the evasion down. They use Haste Samba because Drain Samba is a waste of tp on that set up. Stutter and Box Step is used. Scholar swap between healing and casting regen 2 or regenga 2 and occasionaly heal, then switching to do Blm debuff (which hardly resisted) and nuke, Blizzard 2 get 250 while Thunder 2 did 298 damage (stutter step helps it to get no resist).

I am curious on how to come up with new and different set up for ToAU camp. It will be exciting discoveries. The 2 new jobs are great because it is versatile, so is the last 3 jobs from ToAU, in the hand of capable players, you can really push the game.

Edited, Feb 15th 2008 9:49am by luvbunnies

Edited, Feb 15th 2008 9:54am by luvbunnies

Edited, Feb 15th 2008 11:26am by luvbunnies
#36 Feb 15 2008 at 7:23 AM Rating: Default
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I gave up on sch and refuse to level it past 12 until SE does something to fix it.

They need to do something.. perhaps give it tier 1 weather spells at level 10 to make it more of a geomancer or SOMETHING.

at least give it some kinds of geomancer party buffs that give haste + attack + accuracy AOE Phalanx spell that stacks with phalanx.

The job has potential but it falls short at being anything but .. slightly better than /blm for conserving mp and not as good as /smn for longer battles.

And leveling the job to 37 is a joke it offers virtually NOTHING during that level range...

I still vote sch gets regain at level 41 >.>... but I really feel like the job needs to feel more like a geomancer at level 10 and up.

Edited, Feb 15th 2008 10:24am by thorazinekizzez
#37 Feb 15 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I gave up on sch and refuse to level it past 12 until SE does something to fix it.
It's Scholar, not Geomancer. Get over yourself.
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#38 Feb 15 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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343 posts
At lower lvls, Scholar is more of a whm, but still can nuke pretty well. The strategem is a bit limited I agree, and the job could use some tweak, but it is not broken or totally unplayable. Granted if you gonna do Scholar VS this and that job, all the specialized jobs will win within their respective specialized roles but neither can do a better job at dual roles at the same time, the closest to this is RDM but even then, RDM has a much weaker nukes, though they do have refresh, haste, dispel and convert. It took them awhile to make RDM a unique job, when the game first came out, RDM was the SCHOLAR, nothing really unique about the job and a bit of a wasted space. After they added refresh, phalanx, dispel and convert, you probably wonder how can you even make a party without a RDM :-P
#39 Feb 15 2008 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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1,975 posts
luvbunnies wrote:
all the specialized jobs will win within their respective specialized roles but neither can do a better job at dual roles at the same time
It isn't as glamorous as you make it sound. The real killer is not having any native crowd control or support spells. SCH may have both healing and nuking capabilities, but it's missing all the frills of a standard mage job. No flash, stun, or sleep II. If you have to sub /WHM for -na spells then you completely sacrifice sleep, bind, gravity, and a magic attack bonus. The arts can also be a hindrance in an emergency. You can't just toss out a sleep at will and go back to curing. As RDM it's very easy for me to maintain 3-4 sleeps with a /WHM sub. With SCH you only get sleep 1 and juggling the arts just makes it that much tougher. I could handle two mobs with it at most, and that's only if I have the right subjob.

SCH is missing many abilities that I don't even consider to be "specialized". It really needs tools to protect itself that don't rely on a subjob, because even with the right sub it's pretty lacking in that aspect. This is a serious deficit to a mage job. So when you say SCH excels at dual roles, what you really mean is watered-down, vanilla roles: cure and nuke onry. SCH's real and only strength is the level 40 stratagems. Even that was riddled with spell restrictions (no -ga nukes, -ga whm enfeebles, reraisega, etc).

As an aside, it's really annoying that everything SE gives us always has restrictions or is @#%^ed up somehow. They come up with these amazing ideas for abilities, followed by "oh, by the way.. it doesn't work on this, this, this, or this". It's like one of those cartoons with an evil genie. You make a wish, but it never comes out right. I could somewhat understand restricting nukes, but I would really like to know why reraisega is considered game breaking. It would be nice if abilities did exactly what you expected them to, without any catches. I can't even imagine how horrible this game must be for new players.

luvbunnies wrote:
the closest to this is RDM but even then, RDM has a much weaker nukes
I don't think anyone cares if a SCH can nuke better than a RDM. Anyways, a RDM could sub RDM/SCH and do just as well, and even better at endgame.
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#40 Feb 16 2008 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
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At lower lvls, Scholar is more of a whm, but still can nuke pretty well.


I leveled whm, blm and rdm.. sch is a very weak compared to all of these. To add insult to injury it has even worse melee capacity and lacks buffs that other mage jobs all posses. This means that sch is a poor job to level as /bst and its even worse in a exp party until roughly level 18-20. You get cure 2 last behind whm and rdm at 18 and in addition to that you cant get a native magic attack bonus until 20 when subbing /blm or /rdm. first 18-20 levels of this job is very gimp...

in addition to that the job does not get anything truly special until level 40.

Its almost like leveling thf but its sneak attack is level 40 and it gets nothing else until after level 50+. you get flee at level 55!

cmon you have to admit thats a little excessive. SE was a tad too tight when making this job in fear of making it over powered.

And like it or not Sch IS geomancer at higher levels.
#41 Feb 17 2008 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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What I dislike is how SE tries to make jobs good at multiple things, while not making them a "master" of anything. They tried it with RDM, SMN, and PUP and all three of those jobs required a lot of work to be balanced out, now they're trying to do the same thing with SCH.

I really want SCH to be one of my mains, but I stopped a little past 40, because as it stands now I really don't see SCH as anything more than a RDM, minus the "good spells". With WHM as sub, SCH is probably 2nd or 3rd best healer this game has to offer, I'll give it that much, but if I want to level healer, I'd take WHM up.

What SCH really needs is something that differentiates them from other mages, something that gives people a reason to invite them. Right now all we're sitting on are some useless weather spells, a couple of utility usage stratagems, and a slight amount of efficiency through Light/Dark Arts, and some lackluster Helix spells.

Bottom-line though, We're obviously not melee. We can't play the support role, since we have no real buffs outside of Protect/Shell. We can play the nuker, but we're behind BLM, and BLM doesn't get invited to parties anyway. Finally, we can play healer, but we're competing with 4 other jobs, 3 of which can deal decent damage, 3 of which can induce sleep, and all 4 of which can in some way give a Haste effect.
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#42 Feb 17 2008 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
40 posts
well just to add my own two cents

i have my sch at 51 and really dont see how it is a new job at all
i agree with everyone else in that if i want to be a healer all the time id level whm, which is better at doing so
and in parties... with my own exp parties dont want mixture jobs to do more than just healing about 80% of the time.. so its kinda pointless in being proud of being able to do decent nukes

i cant imagine rdm without refresh, convert, and haste soooo...
i figure why not give sch some useful spells no one else has like mimic/reflect
and some type of hate transfer ability, like provoke but casted for some other party member (oh didnt they give thf something like that?)

and form what ive read, the helix spells damage was supposed to compare to AM but in dot form, which i now read to be false and takes way too long.. almost a whole minute only worth 700-1000 hp is really crappy to me
why not be able to stack them like the blm elemental dots?

ugh poor sch is a crappy job... but ill still be leveling it lol
#43 Feb 18 2008 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I think its a easy to some up most of the posts with.



Quote:
ugh poor sch is a crappy job... but ill still be leveling it lol


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#44 Feb 21 2008 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
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All I can say is this, I hate the collibris!!! It pretty much reduced Scholar as a cure bot, regen 2, stonekinga every 2 mnts, cure, cure, cure and more cure. Not being able to haste kinda reduced the role a bit. With these birds, you cannot do much, cannot nuke or enfeeble. I would say that Whm probably end up doing the same thing, except they cannot stoneskinga.

I am still level 61, but overall this job is very promising. The weather spells are somewhat useless, since you don't really see that much application, meaning not many people actually have gears that would benefit from the latent effect, and BLMs are very rarely getting invited to a party so you can't really use it, except to yourself, even then, Scholar resist rate is horrible. I have to say that below lvl 50s, Scholar is a better main healer than a Whm, mainly for a simple fact that most people who do play Scholar, most of them have leveled other mage jobs, while new-ish Whm is just learning the job. After level 50s, Scholar started becoming more and more a hybrid mage. Against lesser Colibri you can still nuke, but after seeing the damage you probably end up not nuking, subbing blm to cast debuff and enfeebling spells are good.

Once you arrived in ToAU camps, you kinda better off making your own party, and try to think like a BLM when it comes to what mobs you gonna fight. If you can, you should grab a dancer, and maybe a smn or rdm or another blm. Dancer will help you heal so you can nuke at second half of the battle. Rdm, Corsair, Blue or Bard would be needed for dispel vs the crawlers. At the end of the day, I cannot wait for the AF armors, and SE to tweak this job, being good at a little bit of everything is very bad in this game, since SE tend to neuter your ability, fearing that OMG you will be overpowered.... just ask SMN, Pup, Corsair, and to some extend Blue.
#45 Feb 21 2008 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
14 posts
Can SE stop making half decent jobs?
Make some really useful job other then making half useful job.
Except dancer since it is a decent job and it is useful.

Scholar with no Tele, Warp, NA spell come on, at least give us a crowd control spell like Sleep. I know you can use sub-job to fix that problem but sub-job is 1/2 its strength right?

After lvl SCH to 38, I'm still hoping to get the first Scholar spell.
From what I've read those spell only give +dmg effect and ability to trigger effect that last a very short time how painful.



Edited, Feb 21st 2008 4:27pm by Blinks

Edited, Feb 21st 2008 4:28pm by Blinks

Edited, Feb 21st 2008 4:32pm by Blinks
#46 Feb 21 2008 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Scholar with no Tele, Warp, NA spell come on, at least give us a crowd control spell like Sleep. I know you can use sub-job to fix that problem but sub-job is 1/2 its strength right?


Not exactly, you get the spells and abilities from subjobs at half the rate you would get it on a main job. It would be 1/2 strength if the main job does not have natural skills in what you want to use. SCH has native skill in all the basic magic skills, so their Sleep is just as good as any other WHM, BLM, or RDM, of comparable skill level.

The problem really is that I think SE wanted SCH to be heavily defined by what subjob it uses. But come one, really no other job in the game operates like that besides SMN...and that's cause arguably, SMN is a very poorly defined main job until much higher levels. RDM is another, but not nearly to the level that SCH does now, especially in EXP party.

Edited, Feb 21st 2008 6:19pm by Ketaru
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#47 Feb 22 2008 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes Scholar is very defined by its subjob. A Scholar/Blm can nuke very good, often comparable to BLMs and with your strategem you can beat BLM damage. Your helix spells can do up to 90s damage to VT mobs, that is almost 600s damage for 72 mp, even BLMs Ancient Magic is not that mp efficient, especially at lvl 60s. Basically a Scholar/Blm can nuke very close to a BLM AND can heal better than a BLM in the long run, let's say your party got a link and you have to switch healing, Scholar can do better job than a BLM.

On the other hand, a SCH/Whm is a better healer due to mp efficiency, at least until Whms get all their regen tier spells. Sch/Whm however can nuke harder than a Whm/Blm, even not at the full potential of a Sch/Blms but definitely a big help when you have a link and need to kill the first mob fast.

This job is a unique one. Depending on what your party set up, as a Scholar you can switch at will to fill the gap. Summoner is very limited by the subjob, which will mostly be Whms. Scholar on the other hand will have more flexibility, at 66 you can sub Rdm for Phalanxga, while having access to Bind, Gravity and Sleep, later on Rdm sub will give you Stoneskin. Though what is sad is that a nicely geared Scholar is somewhat comparable to a novice Blms, especially if the said Scholar merited Elemental, Enfeebling and Dark Magic Skill. Blms already have a hard time with party invite in ToAU camp, now they are competing even more with Scholar which is more Exp party friendly. The lack of healers is a positive thing for Scholar since Whms are few and far between nowadays.

Overall I agree that the job needs more tweak, and the randomness of the spells really need to be fixed. Scholar seriously lacking of survival spell, crowd control spells, and the charges are beyond ridiculous and need more charges to really define the job. Maybe SE is afraid in making Scholar really good, they will actually kill Blms even more since Scholar is almost like a mini BLMs with a more party friendly spells. Weather and Helixs are not enough spells to make the job unique, Scholar could use a couple more set of spells that really make this job a stand out, like how Rdm has phalanx, dispel, gravity, refresh, convert.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 3:50pm by luvbunnies
#48 Feb 24 2008 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
11 posts
I was SCH/RDM from lvl 1-60 so far and i love /rdm. i like it better then /whm and /blm alone. We get Fast Cast, Magick atk. I never had a issue with getting invites. i think /rdm is better then /blm. we get the same nukes as them and you get no benefit. 8 min elemental seal is hardly worth losing, blink,stoneskin, fast cast, dispel,gravity. the only thing /blm has is magick atk II but thats at lvl 60. /whm only benefit is erase. other then that its no need for it.. lol oh ya.. na spells.....

Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:14am by kytomasi

Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:16am by kytomasi
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