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What would you like to see for your job: Red Mage Edition!Follow

#1 Sep 29 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Since the job forums have been pretty inactive for awhile, I thought I'd start a new topic in each devoted to things you'd like or wish that Square Enix would do with each job. They can be legitimate things you'd like to see, or they could be absurd, and, while they can be, they don't have to be any serious or groundbreaking changes you think each job needs, just something you think would improve them a bit in some form. Just try to keep the topic clean and drama free (emphasis on try). Just have some fun with this and let your ideas soar.

This one is going to probably be the most troublesome one given the discussions that pop up, but a return to predominantly RDM only buffs and debuffs would be beneficial. Give them the ability to cast Hastega, naturally AoE Regens and Refreshes, remove White Mage from Addle, and give them the ability to cast Temper on other players. Seriously, Temper should not be usable only on the Rdm. That's just not cool Square Enix.
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#2 Sep 29 2012 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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On a universal scale, I'd want to see all magical buff durations increased. If it means slightly higher MP costs, so be it. I'm talking like 10 minutes or more without needing Composure or any other gear.

Gonna disagree with party-cast Temper (surprise?!) but can understand why people want it. Instead, I'd rather SE rescind their stance on RDM basically becoming a sphere hub for specific buffs. The gist here would be that Haste, Phalanx, Refresh, Regen, Gain, Enspell, Barspells, and Temper could all affect everyone within a 10 yalm radius of the RDM. For each spell the RDM has up, triggering the ability to apply the sphere would apply a 1 MP/tick drain per spell active on the RDM. So, if you have 9 spells up, you're losing 9 MP/tick. Actually casting a spell on someone would take priority, so even if you move out of range, they'd keep the buff(s). So, if people REALLY want Temper, they'll have to concede to keeping a RDM with AoE range, which shouldn't surprise others on where I'm heading next...

Yup, more incentive to melee. Cycles are one of the reasons that hurt this, and with the above largely curbing that, we're left to tackle the other cumulative aspects. First would be better gear, ideally of the hybrid slant without compromising stats from either mage or melee. This will also help alleviate inventory issues a bit. While I'm okay with spells mirroring melee traits like Temper does Double Attack, I don't think 2 levels of Attack/Accuracy Bonus and full Fencer would destroy the game. Unlocking EX sword WS would be nice, too.

Now, I've got more up my sleeve, and regulars may even recall such things, but the above are what I'd consider pretty basic and a good start to laying a foundation for RDM to then diversify itself from other jobs with. People need to get over the old solo days, RDMs stealing WHM's job, it's not a melee because it has mage in the name, or whatever other spiteful BS that gets shoveled at the job any time it dares raise a hand to cry foul. Until its foundations as a hybrid are established without needing prestige gear or HNM drops, skewing toward whatever aspect is dangerous.

Edit: And the oldie, but goodie, in a similar universal vein: All merit spells and abilities are scroll or naturally learned.

Edited, Sep 30th 2012 12:43am by Seriha
#3 Sep 30 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
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Temper should absolutely be a party cast spell. Right now it has lol-status because it cannot be cast on anyone where it would be useful to have it (this is considering the fact that at least 99% of RDMs either don't bother meleeing or suck **** whenever they try) and therefore a lot of people, even RDMs themselves, don't even know about the spell or bother to get it. There seems to have been only one real intended purpose for Temper, and that was to try to ween RDMs off Joyeuse.

This doesn't apply to RDM specifically, but I think that Enhancing Magic should have more of an effect on spells where it currently has none. For instance, with Barspells and Gain- and Boost- spells, having higher skill increases both the potency and duration of the spells. This kind of thing should be extended toward other spells, particularly Haste. Hell, even if it's just a duration increase that'd be swell.

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#4 Sep 30 2012 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.

Will still never get behind advocating a Temper cycle, though. Always a SMN and Ifrit if they really want it, or even my earlier suggestion if sticking to RDM. Don't really think Cure V is needed post-healing magic adjustment, either. We're just still kinda stuck on SE throwing OP mobs at us without buffs present.
#5 Oct 01 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Temper should absolutely be a party cast spell. Right now it has lol-status because it cannot be cast on anyone where it would be useful to have it (this is considering the fact that at least 99% of RDMs either don't bother meleeing or suck **** whenever they try) and therefore a lot of people, even RDMs themselves, don't even know about the spell or bother to get it. There seems to have been only one real intended purpose for Temper, and that was to try to ween RDMs off Joyeuse.


I disagree with a Temper cycle. I understand your point and it is logical, but creating those types of cycles are the reason why RDMs are in the situation that they are in now. A lot has to do with the stigma attached to melee. I remember RDMs gearing for tanking, something completely laughable years before. If SE continues to enhance RDM in ways such as Temper, it's only a matter of time before people will "catch on" and join the bandwagon.
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#6 Oct 01 2012 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.


AF3 set would probably still excel in that regard (if we're only talking buff duration here). I was really thinking more toward just natural, learned Enhancing skill, not having to totally optimize it with gear.

For instance, Bar- Gain- and Boost- spells all start out at a 3 minute duration, but as Enhancing skill increases, these eventually go up to 5 minutes. Just little things like that, is what I'm saying should be applied to all those 3-minute buffs. No matter what your Enhancing is, Haste is always the same 3 minutes.

Quote:
I disagree with a Temper cycle. I understand your point and it is logical, but creating those types of cycles are the reason why RDMs are in the situation that they are in now.


What situation? The one where they're not invited into groups partly because whatever few useful post-75 melee buffs they get are self-only?
#7 Oct 01 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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I think Enhancing magic skill should increase potency of all enhancing magic spells. Including Haste.
I think all Enhancing Magic spells should be compatible with Accession.
I think Enfeebling Magic skill should increase potency and MACC, so we are not punished for needing more skill gear to land enfeebles.
I think All Merit spells should be scrolls. With new merits affecting Composure, and Sabateur should be implemented.
I think RDM should be placed on All sword EX WS.
I think RDM should be placed back onto armor that it used to share with THF MNK and the like.
I think RDMs new Enhancing spells should be castable on others (primarily temper, and gains)

But other than that, I think RDM is just fine as it is. It has no place in the meta game, but that isn't the job that sucks, its just poor game design on the job inclusion front. Because of Proc systems you don't really get that bring whatever type endgame, because bring whatever doesn't work, even if in groups that aren't aiming for max efficiency.

Edited, Oct 1st 2012 11:29am by rdmcandie
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#8 Oct 01 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.


AF3 set would probably still excel in that regard (if we're only talking buff duration here). I was really thinking more toward just natural, learned Enhancing skill, not having to totally optimize it with gear.

For instance, Bar- Gain- and Boost- spells all start out at a 3 minute duration, but as Enhancing skill increases, these eventually go up to 5 minutes. Just little things like that, is what I'm saying should be applied to all those 3-minute buffs. No matter what your Enhancing is, Haste is always the same 3 minutes.


Before wikis started picking up, I recall being one of the people who pointed out Barspell duration scaling and how it was like somewhere around level 55 that the minimum cap gave way to scaling. As long as whatever scaling doesn't require 500+ sets, I'd be okay with it. SCH skates by on Embrava in part because their gloves enhance the stratagem in a single slot, whereas we need 5 to do the same, albeit a bit more with the bonus of the feet on top. And while /SCH is my favored mage sub, I'd like to avoid it becoming the must via Accession much like we're shackled to /NIN if we ever engage things.

I'd rather just skip the middle-man and universally bump all skills by default in this respect. Potency is another can of worms, of which the same cautionary tale would be extended. You think other people would care if the RDM had to recast Haste every 5 minutes instead of 6 if it meant another 1%? No, they'd want their 1% and tell us to stop **** in the process. It's not far off from why I've not wanted Haste II, especially as a RDM-exclusive. I fully understand the potential power, but I'd also like some get for my give, and that "get" means not outright parroting WHMs or SCHs and nothing more. But if people really want more potency on some things, then just shoot for more tiers. SE needs to get over the spell cap eventually, no sense pandering to their laziness and complicating the issue with even more formulas.

Edited, Oct 1st 2012 7:06pm by Seriha
#9 Oct 01 2012 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
What situation? The one where they're not invited into groups partly because whatever few useful post-75 melee buffs they get are self-only?


No, the situation where people are waiting on RDMs to have the ability to dual wield GAXEs with an A+ rating before effectively meleeing or even attempting to melee. I think we all agree now that melee is part of RDM, but they aren't DDs. So, as long as SE continues to release spells and abilities that hinder the ability to melee in a party, people wont even bother and the ones that try will mostly suck.

What SE needs to do is to continue to create self buff abilities and spells such as Temper, composure self buffs, etc. to promote RDM melee. Once a few good RDMs demonstrate how to do it properly, other RDMS will jump on the bandwagon, just like with RDM tanking.
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#10rdmcandie, Posted: Oct 02 2012 at 8:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.
#11 Oct 02 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Change resist petrify to Resist Enfeebles and actually make it work. Apart from the obvious benefit to soloing it would help get RDM's a place back in the alliance. If everyone gets hit with sleep/para/petrify/breakga the RDM could have a chance to resist it and clean up the WHMs/Tanks.
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#12 Oct 02 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Since there is no action going on in this forum, I will humor you.


RDD wrote:
Increasing RDM's ability to melee will not make it a desired job, for frontline or backline work. The only viable way to make RDM desirable is to diversify its casting role, and truly make it a party support job that offers unique buffs.


I wasn't arguing in reference of making it a more desirable job. I was stating that enhancing RDM melee attributes will increase RDM melee, while making spells such as Temper with the ability to cast on others will hinder RDM melee.

RDD wrote:
Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.


Almalieque wrote:
I think we all agree now that melee is part of RDM, but they aren't DDs.


Again, that's the problem. RDM Melee != DD. If you want to put out uber damage and out DD everyone, then pick a DD job. That's not to say that a RDM shouldn't be in a DD slot, just don't be offended if you don't out DD anyone. RDM melee in the true sense of "Jack of all trades" is not being the uber DD, but the ability to deal note worthy damage.

RDD wrote:
RDM at its core is designed to buff the party through direct enhancements and indirect enhancements in the form of enfeebles.


Smiley: lol Yea, you just made that up. RDM has been a single target/self buff caster since the beginning of the game. It's clear from the RDM spell collection, that RDMs were never meant to be the primary party buffer. Their lack of AoE for buffing is similar to the lack of WS's and damage for melee and the lack of the highest tiers elemental spells for nuking. Hence, "Jack of all trades".

RDD wrote:
The biggest hurdle for RDM is that it no longer has that unique buffer role,
RDM never had a unique buffer role. RDM was chosen because of their ability to maintain MP.

RDD wrote:
On the enfeebling side, the fact that spells do not land, or are virtually ineffective when they do (such as paralyze against Iron Giants), is what is crippling the desire to bring RDM. Compounding the issue is the lack of procs for a RDM, it has no procs that make it required, like say a BLU. Even its unique spells in the T2 enfeeble department are left off the list.


I agree with this statement.





Edited, Oct 2nd 2012 10:40pm by Almalieque
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#13 Oct 02 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Damage is just the "easy" way to get peoples' attention. It may also be king in this game, but that's also because encounters tend to be poorly designed. Regardless, it's not the only avenue that can be explored to bolster melee acceptance, and I'll just copypasta a post I made here Sept. 8 with such a possibility.

Promoting situations of just spamming spells can be simply cycling of a different flavor while naturally diminishing swing time even if you were "allowed" to engage a target. Time and again I've argued that time we spend casting is time we can't melee, thus naturally parsing lower and thus being less effective if actually trying to be a diverse class. To add further insult, if you forgo all that and just swing away, you're still inferior to other jobs. Now, Fast Cast and Temper somewhat alleviate this, but not nearly enough to get anyone to notice or anyone outside of non-melee-hater RDM to care.

So, in short, if we're really keen on throwing stances around, I'd just like to reiterate my old charge-like idea rooted in Enspells. One stance will favor will upping buff potency/duration and cures. The other would benefit nuke and enfeeble potency. In a perfect setting, you'd start off in the first stance to get your party set up, then switch to the second once everyone's buffed (for hopefully 15 minutes or more). All you'd have to do is land a hit 3 times or more on a mob to get the best effect of either side for your next appropriate spell. Boom, we can finally do a bit of everything with the buff output being comparative to staff swapping.

Add a few more minor traits, some new debuffs (while scrolling T2s), improve our gear/WS selection a bit, and maybe traits that give TP for (de)buffs and we're more on track for being our own unique entity. Backlining still has its advantage of safety and lesser interaction, but stepping up would also finally have its benefits.


Not covered there, but add a trait where landing a WS adds duration and maybe some potency to all currently inflicted enfeebles.

Everyone will still get what they want, but with more duration and potency. Giant chunks of the job's skill set wouldn't be collecting dust only to be used solo or in the-now-useless Campaign. "Fine" or whatever regurgitated bull about the job's martial status would mean people wouldn't care when you engage. They still very much do because it isn't fine. No amount of being a selfish **** and just doing what you want to anyway will change numbers, especially outside of the parse vacuum, that support the naysayers. The damage war will never be won, but I'll be damned if you can't add utility to it.
#14 Oct 02 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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I was not focusing on one specific way for promoting RDM melee. I'm with you, I would rather add utility than damage. In any case, adding additional buff spells that can be cast on others do not help that motive.
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#15 Oct 02 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Was ranting more at RCD in sort of our perpetual state of disagreement, if only because I loathe that "fine" opinion going uncontested when most other public opinion speaks contrary, for better or worse. Basically, what few glory stories have trickled in over time came from the RDMs themselves and not people who'd partied with them sticking up for 'em.
#16 Oct 02 2012 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.
If that were true, then 2-handers should never really gotten an update. Indeed, two handed weapons were appropriately powerful in the hands of properly skilled players, but the update made everyone sit up and take notice. Had that update not come, it might have taken forever for everyone to accept 2-handed weapons' efficacy, much like WAR's DD efficacy pre-ToAU.

Likewise, RDM melee has always been perfectly capable in skilled hands... except RDM has never had any updates that made the larger population sit up and take notice.

rdmcandie wrote:
The only way to make RDM desired for melee roles would be to increase the damage out put of RDM to be on par with these DD jobs, which won't and shouldn't ever happen due to RDM's pile of additional role playing abilities.
Why do we keep giving this overweening consideration to damage classes' standing? BRD, WHM, SMN, COR, SCH and DNC (to include GEO soon enough), run the gamut of support capabilities. What could RDM bring to the table without infringing on these already existing support classes, that are in comparison fewer in number and availability than DDs?

rdmcandie wrote:
RDM at its core is designed to buff the party through direct enhancements and indirect enhancements in the form of enfeebles. The skill set supports this, the abilities support this and the gearing options support this. Healing, nuking, melee are all secondary skill sets that apply after the buffing/debuffing.

The biggest hurdle for RDM is that it no longer has that unique buffer role, any job can sub RDM and provide support in the buffing sense nearly as well as RDM, the only notable exception being Refresh 2, and arguably Phalanx 2. On the enfeebling side, the fact that spells do not land, or are virtually ineffective when they do (such as paralyze against Iron Giants), is what is crippling the desire to bring RDM. Compounding the issue is the lack of procs for a RDM, it has no procs that make it required, like say a BLU. Even its unique spells in the T2 enfeeble department are left off the list.
I will agree that RDM has always been enhancing-oriented, but the class was never an effective party buffer, unless you count effective as spending MP on each person, one at a time. Since the start, BRD has always been able to offer much of what we do far more economically, and then cam the CORs, DNCs, and SCHs.

The Community Rep's tragically-mistranslated summary underscored RDM's specialty for enfeebling, which we're all aware is something of a joke and, in it's way, was a dangerous mistake. They tried to specialize a job in enfeebling in a game where any genuinely effective enfeebling undermined the player/monster dynamics they'd intended. In fact, RDM's specialization in enfeebling is of a misnomer, as several other jobs had access to more powerful or unique enfeebles long before even merits were introduced.


RDM's powers may lay in enhancing, but the core of it's design lay in it's ability to take care of itself. It was never a secret that a properly buffed RDM is hard to kill, such that in most party scenarios, no other healer, buffer, or tank (back when we used tanks), would ever really have to worry about protecting the RDM; it left the RDM to stand in where someone went down until they got back up again, or maybe stall adds until the party was ready, or (and I don't feel this was ever fully explored), pull with near impunity.

That's the job's truest strength and function: it's ability to stand on it's own.

rdmcandie wrote:
Increasing RDM's ability to melee will not make it a desired job, for frontline or backline work. The only viable way to make RDM desirable is to diversify its casting role, and truly make it a party support job that offers unique buffs.

(by unique I mean in terms of magic schools, not unique as in something completely unto its own. Temper being party targeted for example is unique to White Magic buffs, but is a shared buff with a Corsairs roll.)
The only problem here is that what you're insisting on has already been tried: the developers have been prioritizing magic on RDM since the game's launch. It's magic has steadily gotten more attention than any of it's non-magical characteristics. Indeed, it was magic ability that enabled yesteryear's famous solos, it was magic that briefly replaced WHM as healer post-ToAU. Even amid the devs' crusade to humble RDM, more attention has been given to the magic than the melee.

As I mentioned, there remains the issue of any efficient support addition to RDM infringing on currently existing, and more genuinely specialized support classes. If it's not efficient, we risk being put back in the shackles of buff cycles yet again.


Leaving aside improvements to enfeebling and combat powers, any return to large-scale events will come when the devs start rewarding game play that caters to RDM's strength.
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#17 Nov 18 2012 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Firstly, I've never been a melee RDM. I wouldn't bash anyone that follows that route or enjoys it. That is the power of the job to be diverse.

That being said, I did/do enjoy being a backline RDM. Back in the old days of xp (pre-pink bird expansion), it was fulfilling for me to cycle enfeebs on mobs. Refresh on mages, assist with hastes if needed, enfeebs...wash repeat. Even moving on to Sky/Sea/Dynamis I found time to enfeeb. The few times I was able to clip Suzy with silence (more so doing her 2hr) was one of the awesome-sause days of lv75.

Now, I don't want to go back to long dragged out xp parties and what not. Those days are to be left in the past, but damn...can't we get enfeebling magic to work worth a **** on the current content. More so in a way that makes the job semi-needed/desired again for events? I think the idea of scaling potency would be worthwhile. Does SE really think content would be completely broken if they allowed the one job they established as the master enfeebling specialist to operate like they said it should?

Also...yes for making changes to enhancing magic as stated above.
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#18 Nov 18 2012 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I will give you the same courtesy that you gave for RDM-melee, but Enfeebling was a "cheap toy" that SE gave us to make us feel more useful. It was fun during the IT++ days, but we were never the "Master of Enfeebling" as people proclaimed. We were just the best class suited for the job.

This was an argument that I've been making for years. SE gave us an "A+" in enfeebling, but nothing to support it. All of our enfeebles were learned by other jobs (at the same time) and we actually had less job specific enfeebling magic than jobs like BLM. We had diaga, dispel and gravity. Diaga being completely useless, dispel being outdone by a brd, leaving us only with gravity (which prior to the -evasion boost, was only useful in kiting).

In Sky, we had to be completely decked out just to have a chance at landing a spell. Just to have the /whm land it right after you.

The truth is, anyone could have enfeebled and giving us the A+, just gave us that task to do it. SE made some steps in making us the "premiere enfeebler" with the T2 merits, but without changing the efficacy of enfeebling on mobs, it was short. Now, with the upcoming changes in enfeebling, there's potential beneficial changes.

However, times have changed since then and it's now a day late and a dollar short. As the board accurately stated, enfeebling is the wrong direction for RDM. Unless SE will allow us to cripple the mobs, what we need to see are things that benefit the group.
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#19 Nov 18 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with Enfeebling is that any job with the enfeebling skill is capping their teir 1 enfeebles. The mechanics of how enfeebling magic scale are built on the 75 cap, Back at the 75 it was ok to have caps structured around the DMND/DINT mechanic, as the accuracy separation was there. RDM was likely the only job that could not only land spells but land them for full value. In the basic sense of the point we are level 99 jobs playing with level 75 mechanics.

Now most jobs can pile on enough MACC/MND or MACC/INT gear to cap out enfeebles and have them land at a rate that isn't really different than RDM. Essentially if a mob isn't immune nearly any job can be successful at enfeebling. My BRD/RDM is as accurate magically and as potent as my RDM simply because of the amount of MACC and <Stat> gear RDM is essentially as good as a subjob as a main job.

On the topic of T2 enfeebles the scaling on them is terrible. Slow 1 is over 2 times more effective vs MP as Slow II. (1.92% per MP vs SlowII5/5 .82) The end result is a whopping .4 seconds of difference on a standard mob attack rate. This is not glaring enough to warrant a required presence. With WHM BLM and SCH all offering more, the fact that the T2 enfeebles are not really any better than their T1 counterparts, and the fact that SCH WHM and BLM all bring other benefits that negate the difference out right. It goes without saying that RDM is in dire straits.

The only way to fix this is to address the issues with the code, mainly it being capped essentially at 75. SE needs to do the same thing with healing, in the sense that after 75 skill applies in increasing the caps higher. This gives RDM a better overall spell, than other jobs, but more importantly better than /RDM. As long as I can offer everything I can as 99RDM with my 99BRD/RDM w, and then my BRD stuff on top...you will never solve the problem.

Fic the mechanics, fix the job. Same applies to enhancing. SE has left RDM's top 2 magic schools capped at 75 content, more and more jobs are now passing those caps.
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#20 Nov 18 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a **** enfeebler.
#21 Nov 18 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a @#%^ing enfeebler.



....SE translation "Deordorize II"...

Think about it. If SE didn't do any work on redefining the game years ago when they decided to push enfeebling onto RDM, you think they will do it now? Their answer was "A+" then made our tier II spells merits.. I think they are doing this on purpose just to read the forums for lulz...
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#22 Nov 18 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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Let a girl dream in these darkest of nights. ;_;

Edited, Nov 18th 2012 8:32pm by Seriha
#23 Nov 18 2012 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Good ideas though.. but too much sense, need to throw in a gravity III somewhere in there..
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Almalieque wrote:

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#24 Nov 19 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a @#%^ing enfeebler.


1) I agree, they should have never been merits to begin with, and their scaling needs to be much higher. But in order to do this they need to change how the enfeebling skill works with spells, it is the only realistic approach to adjusting the scaling. At present Slow II isn't even worth 1/5 really compared to Slow I. Same applies to Para and Blind. SE needs to have the current cap capable of being exceeded. The easiest way is to have enfeebling skill affect the value of the spell. This also gives RDM slightly stronger T1 enfeebles than WHM or SCH, (due to gearing options), and much higher levels than /RDM (as it should be but is not)

2) Agreed, with T4 versions of Dia and Bio.

3) Some of those seem a little excessive, but you are on the right line of thinking, in fact the same courtesy should apply to other jobs such as BLM whose merit spells are a little behind the times, and could be exchanged for other things. (we might get lucky with new merits though, if they ever implement them who knows.)

4) Adding new enfeebles should only be done after enfeebling itself is fixed mechanically. Piling **** on **** doesn't mean better **** it just means more crap. The single largest issue facing RDM is the fact that enfeebling and enhancing are playing with level 75 mechanics, in a level 99 world.

5) I don't particularly like this, I could see a specific WS performing this function, but I don't think it should apply to every single WS. However utility WS's often serve no purpose, as melee elitests care only for damage and not utility. I think something like this would be better served as a enspell trait, that offers a small chance to reset debuffs/dots associated with that element that are on the mob. (from all sources.)

To better explain. Enblizzard could be used to reset paralyze, frost, (ice)helix (forget the name).

6) Yes this ability is a slap in the face, it is insulting, even more so it is insulting that SE keeps trying to tell us that we don't know what we are talking about, and that it is vastly different than ES. Personally I would rather see something that draws on the essence of RDM. Some sort of super enspell.
Elemental Infusion
The next cast offensive spell is applied to the RDM's weapon for the duration of the effect.
Duration 30 seconds
Recast 1 Hour (or w/e they set the recasts at I can't be assed to look).

Essentially this allows a RDM to use say Blizzard 4 as an enspell for 30 seconds. It is kind of like how mystic knight could apply any spell to their weapon in FF5 (i think it was 5).

They could have at least tried to be creative, and with the enhancement buff they had something decent going, but then they came back with ES-3. Waste of space...

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#25 Nov 19 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Main reason I went for every WS on the idea is that it allows every RDM to get it, no questions asked, no prestige weapons required, and it could even be tiered to improve as leveled and maybe even merited if those ever did get reworked. So, while the thought of like-element Enspells boosting their element is sensible, I also see the issue of on mobs where you want to keep Slow on, for example, they may be resistant to both the debuff and the element itself. This is where Immunobreak could come in handy, as once you get it on, you can keep it on through persistent activity, not to mention getting the most bang out of Saboteur. Computationally, I'd say it'd also be easier on the game to run the addition every WS as opposed to every normal hit landing--not that many tend to card about the back-end of things.

Anyway, I won't argue against the T2s getting a better INT/MND curve, but I still think tying potency to skill is a bad idea with people only noticing small percentages in longer term encounters where we're also looking at some outright being useless due to TP Move Normal Attack-itis. Actually giving RDM unique debuffs also lessens the need for such since nobody else would be able to emulate the effects.

More to Enspells, though, I still want to see a null-elemental WS that adopts your enspell property for damage and skillchain slots. It could even outright make the target vulnerable to MBs of that element for the usual window after. In the end, I just don't want to see enfeebling be considered spellcaster-only in execution, which the sad excuse of the new SP has me fearing where SE is lurking in their thought process and the likely chicken and egg scenario of the whole melee debacle.
#26 Dec 07 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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Red Mage I feel is facing a much bigger issue that the community and the devs seem to be addressing, and I've noticed something that I'm pretty sure would be the step in the best direction towards fixing red Mage to be the job that everyone wants it to be. The problem the community is saying is the job is wrong it should be front lines to DD but also be able to cast effectively, while the devs say it is too powerful. You both are right, currently red mage has Elemental skill lower than dark knight, but higher tier nukes, And enhancing magic is doesn't need or use in common play. What I recommend is taking away red Mage tier 4 nukes as well as the enspells, blink, aqua veil, phalanx, stoneskin, and all bar spells. Now, I know I'm gonna be hung upside down for this but here me out. Red Mage in place of those spells should be given job traits already in the game, as well as a few new ones to properly balance the job. red Mage should be versatile, but it can't be because SE gave them too many spells and now it's a lopsided job. Leaning more towards a mage only with a mix between black and white magic, which was fine until scholar showed up.

1. Fencer I, II, and III. A bonus they could use, to deal more DMG per WS.

2. Shield mastery I, II, and III. Defensive bonus so RDM is further encouraged to use Shield and increase their tp gain. (PLD had better be seeing shield mastery V, if this is to work...)

3. Occult Ocumen I, II, and III. Grants tp bonus for them casting elemental or dark magic. Again this is to increase their tp gain, for if they choose magic offensive.

4. Defense bonus I, II, III. They have magic defense bonus I, II, and III. It should be even.

4. Feather lvl 60(new RDM spell). Halves attack power, doubles attack speed, halves tp gain, inhibits targets tp gain. RDM is an enfeebling fighter, fencer. Which to my knowledge should be a really fast mofo. (self cast only) only works while RDM is striking, similar to drain sambas.

5. Triple Cast(RDM only job trait) - occasionally casts elemental spell again at no additional mp cost. Give it a high activation rate. Originally double cast seemed enough, but considering that RNG gets double shot, while COR gets triple shot because it's the weaker more inaccurate job, I figured give SCH a double cast charge or trait with lower activation rate and call it even.


6. Chaotic Cruelty( Rdm, Sch, Drk job trait) - halves mp cost of elemental spells but doubles enmity gain. This is to fix the problem rdms had with tranquil heart by giving you a way to gain enmity, as oppose to losing it. Does wonders for Drk as well considering I'm trying to give them rdm's tier 4 nukes and they don't have the mp to afford it. No need to include dark magic, as thats mostly absorb spells and their hate is perfectly fine. I register this is dangerous for SCH, but they are the job that are able to scan hate, and already have several hate shedding/dispersing abilities, could use a few more. Also occult Ocumen would need to be doubled its current stats to be where it is now with this trait.

7. Make temper level 40, it's a very Good spell. it should really get new rdms to start meleeing. It's Double attack goes off enfeebling skill, and yeah, that's pretty low at that level anyway. Lower the cap needed a little so it caps at 20% double attack by lvl 60 and it's a win.

8. Aura lvl 80(self cast only). Grants double attack, haste, regen, and regain. Now this is probably where your certain I've lost my mind, but keep in mind all the defensive and offensive spells I requested to be taken from redmages book. To keep it not broken, it needs to remain self cast only. This spell does not stack with the spell regen, this does not stack with regain, this does not stack with temper, this does not stack with haste. If this spell is cast it overwrites the other 4 but the other 4 cannot overwrite this. This is to Leviate having to cast those spells independently. Let it cost more than all four spells combined its worth it. 100 mp, and standard enspell duration.

9. Mirror flip lvl 40(job abilty) - Converts DMG from targets next attack, and converts it MP/HP . Recast 3 minutes. Could be longer, any longer than 5 minutes and it would force redmages out of the front line fight, losing its usefulness. I imagine the animation would be a mirror in front of redmages appearing, and after the redmages is hit the mirror flips vertically facing RDM and shatters into sparkling shards and restores RDM's HP/MP. I'm thinking make it share a timer with convert, 2 mirror flips = 1 convert. maybe make it odd timer 3:15 so it's 3 mirror flips = 1 convert. Anything to give RDM an incentive to go front lines and have hate.

10. Magic burst bonus I, II, and III. Benefit for losing tier IV nukes. Maybe let triple casting lets all 3 spells receive max DMG during magic burst.

11. Skill chain bonus I, II, and III. Red Mage is weak as hell. It's benefits should come from its rapid succession of moves similar to how its 2 hour chainspell works,


Basically what I'm doing here is making RDM faster, close range, and farther from SCH, BLM, and WHM territory. By taking away RDM ability to do all those enhancements ive made it faster and stronger physically and magically, without pulling it from its core elements of play. Taking away its ability to buff party members it gives room for job traits It rightfully deserved like advanced shield mastery, occult Ocumen, skill chain bonus, magic burst bonus, and fencer. Feather and Aura combined allows Rdm to fight with melees, without simply feeding tp with little return. Feather would also be a much wanted new enfeeble that has felt like a missing part of its role. RDM is the jack of all trades, it should act like it. Seeing RDM meleeing at lightning speed, reflecting dmg and triple casting, would definitely give it a personality of its own. Also I feel it would compliment chainspell very nicely. Add all that, and I'll take that 1 hour elemental seal with open arms.

The job doesn't need ANY more magic enfeebles, it's so boring currently. If you want to nuke/enfeeble better sub BLM. Heal status ailments, curing, and dmg resist /WHM. Increased potency in enhancement, /SCH or /SMN. RDM needs to lose all the baggage, no T3 enfeebles, no barspells, no T4 nukes, no weak sauce enspells, no defensive magic. You can get all of those spells by subbing other mage subs and most people who want those spells either will simply play that job or sub job that has it anyway. Rdm never needed it, and if we want real changes to the job, we have to ask for this nerf. Adding new magic enfeebles is just another band aid on an incorrectly designed job. It's suppose to be front line.

If you feel this is too good, well I offer more nerfs to RDM such as lowering overall STR, CHR, AGI, MP, HP. Mp isn't really an issue considering how endgame RDM is a job that supposedly never runs out of mp. It just pains me that everyone wants things for RDM but no one thinks we have so much, what are we willing to sacrifice if it's too powerful. This will put red Mage where it needs to be between BLM and WHM. Behind WAR, in front of SCH, and right next to BLU.








Edited, Dec 7th 2012 6:18pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 6:24pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 11:12pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 11:35pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 3:29pm by Evokerofsorts
#27 Dec 08 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I read the whole post.

I still wanna hang you upside down.

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 11:51pm by HeroMystic
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#28 Dec 08 2012 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
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Well don't know what to tell, feel its still too weak honestly, I was going to add a tier of magic burst bonus, and skill chain bonus. If it was still too weak, also. The mirror flip should come at the same level as convert, should either just be 5 minutes or share a timer with convert. 2 mirror flips = one convert. It plays on the fact that convert is a back line abilty, no RDM in his right mind would do it in the heat of a battle, and mirror flip is the opposite. "come on....hit me."

I'm all for criticism, I was a red mate long long Long ago. I've seen some of the most respectable rdms fight in all forms of end game, kiting, fighting, back line curing/nuking, chainspell stuns. Rdm wouldnt lose any of those abilities from what I'm addressing, it would simply change how it does. Give it some originality, without severely stepping on mages toes. It hasn't gotten any melee traits Ever, and it's because it's balls are too big. Plain and simple. Typing on an IPad sucks.

If you pay attention to the timer for mirror flip, along with those defensive traits, and increase of tp usage. I'm pretty with this a RDM coud tank more effectively. RDM/nin and what not. Im considering maybe making mirror flip only available if you have a shield equipped. To deter dual wielding.





"Man and monsters both make mistakes but For every man who cries and begs for time enough to grieve. You'll find a million more monsters like me, who will lick our wounds and laugh when we leave."

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 2:58pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 3:06pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 3:50pm by Evokerofsorts
#29 Dec 08 2012 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, but taking things away from the job is the last thing it needs right now. Additionally, you're basically giving Temper away, removing Enspellga from SCH's **** and piling on a bunch of super situational abilities that won't get us invites.

Fencer would be nice if was better than it is, but if's anything we can actually swing on, Dual Wield wins. Always. To that end, I'd rather see a RDM variant of Dual Wield that allows sword main-hand and dagger off-hand only, giving access to both WS trees at once. I wouldn't even demand a delay reduction, but up to DW2 would be okay with me.

Shield Mastery is relatively useless in a group because we won't be keeping a mob's attention due to our damage deficiencies and the nerf enfeebles took to enmity long ago. While I believe that nerf was justified, I would've rather seen it so debuffs gained their old enmity when they landed successfully, but basically none on no effect/resists. The new trait I mentioned above is also a regard to shields largely offering no offensive benefit, so having an off-hand perk would help RDM. In the past, some people have wanted to see elemental shields akin to staves, or even shields with super stats to help offense, but I was against them both for inventory issues and disliking "zero to hero" equipment slot options, typically locked behind HNMs given SE's track record.

Occult Accumen is useless to us until the need to staff swap is addressed. I've tried to tackle this problem with earlier ideas where melee related activities improve our mage game, but when you're losing hundreds of nuke damage just to keep a sword or dagger out, over time you're probably just better meleeing exclusively for MP efficiency.

Defense, in turn, Defense Bonus traits, are also useless. RDMs tanked through Utsusemi with a dash of -interrupt gear to keep it up while the enfeebles of yesteryear kept the mob glued once they built up their hate. Dipping back to Shield Mastery, I wouldn't mind seeing this trait overhauled to offer a chance to cover anyone you're in front of while also granting a DA-like chance to shield bash on an attack round. Unlike a super shield, it's something every RDM would get, and I doubt PLDs would object to it, either. But RDM would also need a shield skill buff.

Feather is just no-no. We're already an attack deficient job as a one-hander class. I know some people reveled in the old ceremonial dagger 0 damage enspell exploit, but it was dumb. Yes, dumb. This'll pretty much recreate that (meaning no TP gain, let alone half) while making our WS even crappier if we do somehow manage to get TP. I can at least respect the nod toward our TP feed issue, which has been a card played against RDM melee advocates for years, but I feel like that's something that needs a broader attention to and may even see such given Matsui's recent blurb on enemy TP.

Triple Cast... I just have to facepalm just as hard as when I see Double Cast requests, which have inevitably manifested through Spontaneity despite it not being "good enough" for the people who want it. I'm one of those bastards that likes complete control over my abilities, so suddenly casting Cure IV three times on someone and getting that equivalent enmity isn't going to go over well with me when I'm not trying to tank. Triply so if it sucks up 3x MP. If it's just about making nukes hit harder, well, being a goober and taking away the T4s is kinda counter-intuitive to that desire. Otherwise, a lot of triple-anything spells are just wasted due to overwrite or no effect after the first.

I'll pass on Chaotic Cruelty because trying to face-tank and nuke without shadows is just asking for lots of interrupts. It doesn't really adjust other Enmity system issues, either. But that's also a wait and see problem with Matsui's acknowledgement.

Mirror sort of manifested as Reverse in FFXII, but the problem here is generally related to RDM being the one taking a hit. Talk to DRKs about how cumbersome Scarlet Delerium is to take advantage of and you might get an idea on how quirky this one will be. If you REALLY want more HP/MP, then getting higher tiers of Regen alongside maybe self-cast Refresh III or even Auto-Refresh traits would be the better route. Then again, I've always been one of those RDMs who tries not to rely on Convert while others ride the timer like a drunk girl on prom night.

MB and SC bonuses are among that super situational category. SCs aren't sought over since just spamming your strongest WS is usually better. If an SC accidentally happens, oh well. This also means less chances for MBs. From RDM's perspective, we're also better off the SC opener due to our lesser damage out, meaning the SC bonus would never apply unless we closed one. It'd be nice if we could create skillchains on the fly via enspells or nukes like SCH can, but SE just loves to give any ideas RDMs come up with to other jobs. Why? I wish I frickin' knew, but I suspect a Tanaka-based resentment of his babies being soloed by those with an iron bladder.

But yeah, trying to promote synergy by just taking away is not how you do it. Enfeebles need to be fixed. New RDM only enfeebles need to happen. The job needs to not be so sub-reliant, hence buffs to compensate there. SCH is right over there if people really want that backline RDM. And for all the **** people are doing there about the pending Embrava nerf, they're still more desirable than a RDM for the things people would want them for.
#30 Dec 08 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Default
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I acknowledge that I gave temper away. Which is nice an all, so which job is gonna sub RDM over WAR/SAM now that 12% DA is achievable. Also, feather is an enfeeble for fighting things you don't want to give tp. Most likely you'd rather nuke but have to be up close to use the ability. Ideally for it to be useful, it has to stack with Aura. The level 80 spell I recommended which is basically 3 of the spells you mentioned combined plus regain for a lump sum of MP to reduce casting time.

Temper lvl 40 = tell me what's wrong with it.

Mirror flip (instant mp/HP DMG conversion) = tell me what's wrong with it. Im pretty sure any job with HP and MP taking a big hit won't complain, especially if they use /RDM anyway. I figure maybe throw in a enmity shed after you get hit too, if continued hate is what you were leaning towards. That would do away with all fears.

Temper + feather = tell me what's wrong with it.

Aura + Feather = tell me what's wrong with it.

Aura(haste, temper, regain, Regen hybrid) = tell me what's wrong with it.

Thank you for bringing up something I forgot which is skill chain bonus only applying for closing, which can be struck from the list I suppose.

Now scarlet delirium isn't a direct DMG conversion straight to mp. I'm saying if a mob smacks you in the face, for 500 HP while mirror flip is active, 250 goes to HP and 250 goes to MP. So popping it then spamming a couple nukes to get attention is what you'd probably do. Is it better than convert? Nope, I'm trying to make it as good as convert only useful front lines. Maybe, or maybe not share the timer, but being half the timer.

You mentioned something important to me involving tp loss when switching staves for maximum DMG. I don't understand how you can say its no point having triple casting for 3x the cost, when it clearly resists its so weak. I clearly made a trait that halved mp cost and doubled enmity.(look above) How much enmity does a tier 3 nuke get compared to what a BLM casts? And if your out there casting with a stave your probably back lines, worrying about elemental resists, and tp loss from staves. Why are you even redmage to begin with, show up to the event as BLM or SCH. Red Mage is not dedicated nuker it is an enfeebler. It is not an enhancer, it is an enfeebler.

Mirror flip should require a shield to be active. So that dual wield is deterred. I don't think redmages should get to use it if they have shadows, and dual wielding offensive. It's too much. Getting to use both WS from dagger and sword, what's the point? One or the other. Dual wielding is native to thf, nin, and dnc. None of them are asking for what youre asking for. I could understand if it was at least native to rdm. You can turn off feather and just use aura, or temper. Feather is for when your fighting something massive and you don't want it to gain tp. Not like a nuke or a WS from a RDM should ever be game changing. No, their advantage comes from self enhancement and enfeeble, and versatile between white and black magic. As well as use of the sword. It could be every sword strike = .03 tp loss for the mob. Now if RDM is suddenly attacking at double speed thanks to feather and temper, the loss of ATK is a well worth sacrifice.

It's contribution in group determined by what's needed. If its a mob that drops toxic magic AoE's. I'd rather see a RDM back lines, enfeebling, healing, nuking, but it shouldn't be nuking the same way a SCH or BLM does. It should do enfeebles, use mirror flip, nuke to get mobs attention, drop gravity, and kite and elemental spam. It's only for one move yeah, but it's better than doing the same thing a BLM does is all I'm saying. If its tp moves that a NM is doing to cause the most damage, RDM should be balls deep swiping away at its tp.

And yeah I am recommending SCH get all enspells, and buffs I took from RDM. It's the better party enhancing job it has stratagems to do that. There the opposite of each other, at least their suppose to be. Scholar is group enhancement, RDM is self cast enhancement. Refresh and haste was a courtesy to party members that ended up defining the job. SCH and WHM can haste just fine, you'll probably say something next like just make feather a tp inhibiting enfeeble spell like ninja has one. It's not original, and I'm trying to put RDM front lines and your trying to argue why it needs to stay back lines.....also Diaga spell has to get off the RDM spell list too.

Keep I'm mind the half tp gain for red Mage, would happen anyway from the sudden drop in weapon delay, so I guess I shouldn't have mentioned that as a factor. I'm sure that's what your problem is regarding the half tp gain remark I made. That's not what I meant. I just mean half attack power and double attack speed, inhibit target tp with every strike. for feather.

I'm going off of abilities already has, feather for fast cast. Mirror flip for convert. These are the traits that would set RDM apart. People would see you show up and put in work. Make it the fastest job both physically and magically, it can be the weakest. Give it ways to make its WS stronger and allow it to use tp more often. If its not staff swapping that is, and I never said you can't use feather with a stave. I just wouldn't trust that accuracy...



Edited, Dec 8th 2012 11:45pm by Evokerofsorts
#31 Dec 08 2012 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
4. Feather lvl 60(new RDM spell). Halves attack power, doubles attack speed, halves tp gain, inhibits targets tp gain. RDM is an enfeebling fighter, fencer. Which to my knowledge should be a really fast mofo. (self cast only) only works while RDM is striking, similar to drain sambas.

First problem? Halving our ATK. Come 99 in good gear, we're probably floating between 550-600 ATK depending on the RDM, more with food. Halving that would put us to ATK values lower than we had at 75. Meanwhile, mob DEF values will remain unchanged on top of their level differences further exacerbating the problem of our low ATK. We will continually be hitting for 0, and with no Enspells if you got your way, for no added effect damage, either.

I'm also of the mind that doubling attack speed while halving TP gain is a bit of a wash. We'll also be looking at ACC deficiencies on harder prey. Where would this attack speed boost factor in relation to haste? JA? Magic? Equipment? Or like DW/MA? We'll still be subject to the Haste cap like any other job, though, and hitting for peanuts isn't gonna win us any praise.

As for enemy TP gain, the problem is they gain our base TP +3. So, if we're getting 6 TP a strike, the mob's getting 9. Damaging spells also give a flat 10. All of this is subject then to AGI and Subtle Blow, the latter of which would be better for RDM to get natively even though we pick it up from /NIN. I personally wouldn't object to Enspells granting subtle blow based on their damage output, either. Or if you wanna get fancy with elements doing specific things, that'd come from Enaero, while Enfire would boost ATK, Enblizzard MATK, and so on. Either way, with other people whacking a mob, TP piles on, and after 25%, it'll TP every time it hits 100%. Toss in anything of difficulty getting Regain on top and it doesn't matter if we feed 4.5 or 9 TP.

Quote:
8. Aura lvl 80(self cast only). Grants double attack, haste, regen, and regain. Now this is probably where your certain I've lost my mind, but keep in mind all the defensive and offensive spells I requested to be taken from redmages book. To keep it not broken, it needs to remain self cast only. This spell does not stack with the spell regen, this does not stack with regain, this does not stack with temper, this does not stack with haste. If this spell is cast it overwrites the other 4 but the other 4 cannot overwrite this. This is to Leviate having to cast those spells independently. Let it cost more than all four spells combined its worth it. 100 mp, and standard enspell duration.

SE hates super spells. We get Aura? 10% Haste, 5% DA, 3 Regen, and 1 Regain. And this probably being generous giving the pending Embrava nerf, which is a 2 hour spell. AND they won't stack with the individual counterparts. Trust me, I'm all for saving time on not casting spells often so we can swing more, but let's just improve the durations of what we've got without requiring AF3's set bonus for others.

I'd rather spell be a flat 100% TP bonus, perhaps scaling to 200% at 500 skill. Otherwise, the Regain aspect is useless until the weapon swap issue is resolved.


As for giving away Temper, it's pretty much principle at this point. It's our only unique spell if you don't want to count Ifrit's Favor or Warrior's Roll. Move it to 40, SCH gets, they AoE, we're further married to /SCH to do the same. SE won't let it AoE? Then what's the point? Sorry, but this whole thinly veiled "Let's buff SCH!" agenda makes me shake my head. They can AoE buffs we've wanted to for years before the job even existed. SE won't let RDM be a sphere post to transfer their active buffs to anyone close, or at least let us copy them on a short timer.

The tanking fetish is just another headscratcher. For all the "Best hate in the game!" praise some threw it way back when, myself and my LS found just sticking to PLD and NIN a better bet. None of that stupid waiting for enmity to build or needing SATAs if hate resets were involved. And if we're fighting a mob with deadly AoEs, the last thing I wanna do is make it randomly turn toward me and the other mages, devastate them, then look back at the tanks with a **** grin. Bluntly, **** RDM tanking until PLD can actually do it reliably. The fact SE's adding another tank job through Runic Fencer is another complication, as people have already **** up and down about the flaws of the enmity system to SE.

Dealing damage has always been one of RDM's flaws. I'll never say no to doing more, but I'm also cool with it getting utility people want. So, obvious game mechanics issue aside, that's also why I flip Feather the bird. I'm not going to repeat myself on a lot of the other suggestion flaws. More in principle, I do see SCH as the backline RDM some people want to be, and it's why I give those who habitually shoot for backline only buffs grief. Now, SE could do baby step tweaks, but there's a part of me that just wants them to OP the **** out of the class temporarily to change perspectives much like how the two-handed update did back. Otherwise, nobody's gonna care about insignificant pussyfoot tweaks in a game where it's Specialist or GTFO.
#32 Dec 08 2012 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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The Elemental stave swapping is for nuking I'll give you that, but I don't see how thats going to be addressed even if you switch to weapons of the same delay and attack. It'll still be weak as **** if you think they'll give a weapon. With all 8 magic proficiencies, and you weaponskill with it. Or the idea that, let me use this Lower delay weapon and expect to ws with this stronger slow delay weapon, or vice versa.It's ludicrous. And I had a feeling you were talking about all of the super strong NM's out now. I mean, because sure never mind the rest of the 10 years of content where a RDM can perform well in and could take these adjustments with open arms.

Halfing attack I'll give you 0 DMG is a fairly unnattractive thing to see. I somehow imagined them hitting mobs for 20-30 a sword hit, but then I remembered how this game works. But ok, however temper I still deem a prototype just like embrava. It can change at any time. and capped..temper is 20%. It can't be capped by any other job with the current enhancing skill requirements, if it were subbed by any other job. even if it were toggled to cap at 60.

And yeah I do think aura is super spell, my specs would be haste(the actual spell haste exact haste amount) + Regen (what's the highest Regen a RDM can get?) + prototype extraordinare(20%) + toilet paper magic (1-3tp/tick). That's a really super spell, and I'm willing to get rid of every single situational spell has that is no where near as good as it. I don't want this spell to stack with its counter parts at all. It's to be redmages signifying spell that defines it the best.

Ok, I'm thinking halves WS DMG for feather now. That sounds better. It can go right where the Barspells were.

Mirror can take the place of the defensive spells.

Triple cast where the tier IV nukes went.

Not trying to make redmage a tank for Any major HNM events. I'm trying to make it more useful in small groups, solo, and exp parties. even small NM fights. also giving it an aesthetic change, that fits its role, and could be done without having to make SE rewrite the skeleton programs that are the base of the game.

Every NM is different, same for HNM, RDM should be able to enfeeble using the sword. They have enfeebles on both sides of magic, and none for sword. It doesn't make sense. So here's the question, 0 DMG results from half ATK. So how much loss in ATK results in a job doing exactly half their DMG output. "X hits target for 110" *Feather* "X hits target for 55"

Simple **** like that. It's output would really be the same the tp gain, the DMG output, the only change is the appearance and the enfeeble of taking away tp.

Yeah, mobs get tp easily. And it doesn't scale well against the bigger ones. Don't know how to address that one.

Accession only works for spells if the SCH has it natively. Pretty sure that's how it works. If it doesn't work like that, well **** Can ask SE to keep it unaccessionable. I mean if that's too much to ask. Or make the potency of temper rely by the actual person receiving it, if they have **** enhancing Skill. Enjoy your 5% DA.


#33 Dec 08 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Default
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//

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 12:47am by Evokerofsorts
#34 Dec 08 2012 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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Evokerofsorts wrote:
I'm all for criticism, I was a red mate long long Long ago. I've seen some of the most respectable rdms fight in all forms of end game, kiting, fighting, back line curing/nuking, chainspell stuns. Rdm wouldnt lose any of those abilities from what I'm addressing, it would simply change how it does. Give it some originality, without severely stepping on mages toes. It hasn't gotten any melee traits Ever, and it's because it's balls are too big. Plain and simple. Typing on an IPad sucks.

I'll go through each one for you. Seriha already did it but I'm sure I can add more to it.

Evokerofsorts wrote:
Red Mage I feel is facing a much bigger issue that the community and the devs seem to be addressing, and I've noticed something that I'm pretty sure would be the step in the best direction towards fixing red Mage to be the job that everyone wants it to be. The problem the community is saying is the job is wrong it should be front lines to DD but also be able to cast effectively, while the devs say it is too powerful. You both are right, currently red mage has Elemental skill lower than dark knight, but higher tier nukes, And enhancing magic is doesn't need or use in common play. What I recommend is taking away red Mage tier 4 nukes as well as the enspells, blink, aqua veil, phalanx, stoneskin, and all bar spells. Now, I know I'm gonna be hung upside down for this but here me out. Red Mage in place of those spells should be given job traits already in the game, as well as a few new ones to properly balance the job. red Mage should be versatile, but it can't be because SE gave them too many spells and now it's a lopsided job. Leaning more towards a mage only with a mix between black and white magic, which was fine until scholar showed up.


Directly at the bolded: While it's true that RDM has poor elemental skill, we have multiple methods to make up for that. /SCH for instance instantly puts us at B+ Elemental skill via Dark Arts. And you would have to be crazy to take away enspells from RDM. Enspells are the main reasons why our damage isn't complete crap(Temper closed the gap), and I shouldn't even have to go into why the rest being deleted from RDM's **** would cripple the job in terms of versatility.

Evokerofsorts wrote:
1. Fencer I, II, and III. A bonus they could use, to deal more DMG per WS.

2. Shield mastery I, II, and III. Defensive bonus so RDM is further encouraged to use Shield and increase their tp gain. (PLD had better be seeing shield mastery V, if this is to work...)

Both of these have the same problem, and that's with Dual Wield being multiple times better than Sword 'n Board, period, no questions asked. When SE first revealed that RDM was getting shield mastery, the RDM forums were laughing their asses off. RDM has E skill in Shield, and we're pretty much married to Genbu's shield for it's -PDT. We -barely- have access to any Kite/Tower shields and our skill is too poor to make any use of it. In fact, we don't even -need- Shield Mastery. Never did. RDM is still one of the toughest jobs in the game in terms of minimizing damage.

Futhermore, /NIN (and /DNC) gives Dual wield, which is leagues better than Fencer. Fencer would literally have to give haste and a massive ATK boost to be comparable.

Quote:
3. Occult Ocumen I, II, and III. Grants tp bonus for them casting elemental or dark magic. Again this is to increase their tp gain, for if they choose magic offensive.

If RDM is using elemental magic offensively, they're /SCH and wearing a staff. The skill as a whole is counter-productive.

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4. Feather lvl 60(new RDM spell). Halves attack power

Have to stop reading there, because by halving attack power, you make the ability completely useless. No matter how fast the RDM is swinging, if he's doing 0 damage, no one cares.

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6. Chaotic Cruelty( Rdm, Sch, Drk job trait) - halves mp cost of elemental spells but doubles enmity gain. This is to fix the problem rdms had with tranquil heart by giving you a way to gain enmity, as oppose to losing it. Does wonders for Drk as well considering I'm trying to give them rdm's tier 4 nukes and they don't have the mp to afford it. No need to include dark magic, as thats mostly absorb spells and their hate is perfectly fine. I register this is dangerous for SCH, but they are the job that are able to scan hate, and already have several hate shedding/dispersing abilities, could use a few more. Also occult Ocumen would need to be doubled its current stats to be where it is now with this trait.

This one is okay, but needs to be an ability.

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7. Make temper level 40, it's a very Good spell. it should really get new rdms to start meleeing. It's Double attack goes off enfeebling skill, and yeah, that's pretty low at that level anyway. Lower the cap needed a little so it caps at 20% double attack by lvl 60 and it's a win.

Temper goes off of Enhancing, not enfeebling.

And you want to cap the DA rate at level 60? It's impossible to hit 20% without 500 Enhancing skill. That's a considerable change.

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8. Aura lvl 80(self cast only). Grants double attack, haste, regen, and regain. Now this is probably where your certain I've lost my mind, but keep in mind all the defensive and offensive spells I requested to be taken from redmages book. To keep it not broken, it needs to remain self cast only. This spell does not stack with the spell regen, this does not stack with regain, this does not stack with temper, this does not stack with haste. If this spell is cast it overwrites the other 4 but the other 4 cannot overwrite this. This is to Leviate having to cast those spells independently. Let it cost more than all four spells combined its worth it. 100 mp, and standard enspell duration.


Bump it to 5 minutes and I'll have no problem with this.

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9. Mirror flip lvl 40(job abilty) - Converts DMG from targets next attack, and converts it MP/HP . Recast 3 minutes. Could be longer, any longer than 5 minutes and it would force redmages out of the front line fight, losing its usefulness. I imagine the animation would be a mirror in front of redmages appearing, and after the redmages is hit the mirror flips vertically facing RDM and shatters into sparkling shards and restores RDM's HP/MP. I'm thinking make it share a timer with convert, 2 mirror flips = 1 convert. maybe make it odd timer 3:15 so it's 3 mirror flips = 1 convert. Anything to give RDM an incentive to go front lines and have hate.


This is fairly useless because for that ability to be worthwhile they'll have to be taking a massive amount of damage, and if they are, they'll either be using Utsusemi, or not meleeing the mob at all. In party situations, RDM will never gain enough hate to use it on a consistent basis due to low WS damage in comparison to other DDs. And you must have something against Convert, because as long as I have Stoneskin, Utsusemi, and Phalanx, I have no fear of using Convert during battle.

Outside of Aura and Chaotic Cruelty, you're trading spells that allows RDM to be self-sufficient, and replacing them with abilities that does absolutely nothing to improve RDM's viability in party play while crippling it's ability to solo.
____________________________

#35 Dec 09 2012 at 2:30 AM Rating: Default
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/sigh you really aren't going to make this easy for me I see.

Quote:
While it's true that RDM has poor elemental skill, we have multiple methods to make up for that. /SCH for instance instantly puts us at B+ Elemental skill via Dark Arts. And you would have to be crazy to take away enspells from RDM. Enspells are the main reasons why our damage isn't complete crap(Temper closed the gap), and I shouldn't even have to go into why the rest being deleted from RDM's **** would cripple the job in terms of versatility.


Thanks for point something out, that /SCH is very proficient job for if you want to nuke. Giving enspells to Scholar would make room for the spells I felt would be better for the RDM. But I suppose if you can't part with your enspells, they can stay. Though i still think enhancements like stoneskin should go to SCH, it's better that way, it's way too much survivability in that job. Half you guys will sub /SCH or /WHM anyway.

Quote:
Both of these have the same problem, and that's with Dual Wield being multiple times better than Sword 'n Board, period, no questions asked. When SE first revealed that RDM was getting shield mastery, the RDM forums were laughing their asses off. RDM has E skill in Shield, and we're pretty much married to Genbu's shield for it's -PDT. We -barely- have access to any Kite/Tower shields and our skill is too poor to make any use of it. In fact, we don't even -need- Shield Mastery. Never did. RDM is still one of the toughest jobs in the game in terms of minimizing damage.


Yeah, that's why they should get shield upped to C-. Redmage is also the toughest job to maximize DMG, it's situational.

Quote:
Futhermore, /NIN (and /DNC) gives Dual wield, which is leagues better than Fencer. Fencer would literally have to give haste and a massive ATK boost to be comparable


Or a spell like Aura + Feather + an enspell. Enspells that apparently we're keeping now because it's closing gaps and setting new precedent. No, rouge jobs like thf, dnc, and nin should get DW. I even scratched my head at BLU getting it. And it's seems like youre peddling back to we need to deal DMG, when it's clear knowledge were not a DD class.




Quote:
If RDM is using elemental magic offensively, they're /SCH and wearing a staff. The skill as a whole is counter-productive


Unless of course they are not subbing SCH and using a sword. Stop trying to play me with this back lines noise.

Quote:
Quote:
4. Feather lvl 60(new RDM spell). Halves attack power

Have to stop reading there, because by halving attack power, you make the ability completely useless. No matter how fast the RDM is swinging, if he's doing 0 damage, no one cares.


"X hits target for 110" *Feather* "X hits target for 55" I imagine that'll look nice if he's doing that at double attack speed with enspell DMG.I meant literally half DMG, not half ATK, my wording was off, figured youd still see the vision. Wasted optimism.


Quote:
6. Chaotic Cruelty( Rdm, Sch, Drk job trait) - halves mp cost of elemental spells but doubles enmity gain. This is to fix the problem rdms had with tranquil heart by giving you a way to gain enmity, as oppose to losing it. Does wonders for Drk as well considering I'm trying to give them rdm's tier 4 nukes and they don't have the mp to afford it. No need to include dark magic, as thats mostly absorb spells and their hate is perfectly fine. I register this is dangerous for SCH, but they are the job that are able to scan hate, and already have several hate shedding/dispersing abilities, could use a few more. Also occult Ocumen would need to be doubled its current stats to be where it is now with this trait.


Quote:
This one is okay, but needs to be an ability.


No, no no. There are already so many abilities in this game, there should be concrete traits that are automatically in place to alter game play, that. Clearly define the jobs role when it does someone that another job does. Like nuking, curing, casting etc. if your gonna make it an abilty might as well give to SCH and make it a lame stratagem. This is to make RDM nuke more for less mp, but still get am equal amount of enmity that it would if it still had tier IV Nukes. The way so they can nuke more without additional enmity comes from triple cast. Think of it as purposely giving RDM a weak submachine gun instead of the standard revolver.

Please Altana no more job abilities.

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Quote:
7. Make temper level 40, it's a very Good spell. it should really get new rdms to start meleeing. It's Double attack goes off enfeebling skill, and yeah, that's pretty low at that level anyway. Lower the cap needed a little so it caps at 20% double attack by lvl 60 and it's a win.

Temper goes off of Enhancing, not enfeebling.


Right.

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And you want to cap the DA rate at level 60? It's impossible to hit 20% without 500 Enhancing skill. That's a considerable change.


Lower the required skill to cap it. So it can be used at a lower level, to give RDM a taste of meleeing at fast speed. Before Aura, to make it feel like a fencer.

Quote:
This is fairly useless because for that ability to be worthwhile they'll have to be taking a massive amount of damage, and if they are, they'll either be using Utsusemi, or not meleeing the mob at all. In party situations, RDM will never gain enough hate to use it on a consistent basis due to low WS damage in comparison to other DDs. And you must have something against Convert, because as long as I have Stoneskin, Utsusemi, and Phalanx, I have no fear of using Convert during battle.


Utsusemi, is /NIN. Stoneskin and phalanx I'm convinced should go. I'm not saying their bad, stoneskin is the amazing. I'm just saying when I was coming up with these amazing job traits, spells, abilities I just felt it would never happen, and only way it could happen is if RDM lost a bunch of things that SE deems too powerful. Stoneskin fell into that category, given that most likely people who want SS, sub whm and SCH anyway, just give to SCH and call it an enhancing job. And I already said this is an alternative to convert, incase your front lines mid fight and want to make use of a frontline version at half the timer. Except unlike convert the HP/MP goes off how you are hit instead just swapping your MP/HP. RDM/NIN + enfeebles + stoneskin is cool. This move is more for taking big tp moves from mobs with open arms, suddenly RDM now can absorb 1000 needles, astral flows, bombs, self destruct. I know most people would rather just be able to reduce DMG, or shadow tank, but for RDM it could use some originality.

Adding alternatives to convert instead running out of battle range. I want to imagine we without subjobs when discussing RDM balance, because if I mention updating meleeing you bring up /NIN, And if I'm casting you bring up /SCH. I'm taking the job as a stand alone, what can go and what can stay about the job. I'm trying to make RDM really fast, without taking its core idea in mind.

Quote:
Outside of Aura and Chaotic Cruelty, you're trading spells that allows RDM to be self-sufficient, and replacing them with abilities that does absolutely nothing to improve RDM's viability in party play while crippling it's ability to solo
.

Well I'm glad I was able to get your full support on two of my ideas, I'm still certain feather needs more convincing, simply because I sold it improperly. Understand I don't think well get those jobs abilities/spells/traits unless we get rid of some spells RDM has that it doesn't use, or need. Stoneskin can be used on other Jobs. Rdm doesnt need it. Pitching alternatives are closer to getting SE's attention. I honestly Feel the reason we got that terrible 2 hour is that the community is begging for more enfeebles, and for redmage to be party inclusive without making it play it's intended role, because it's "too situational". Mobs are too strong, and rdm should be back lines where its "safe". You are making me think, mirror should be a spell.

So, am I assuming that Barspells , aquaviel, blink, Diaga, Tier IV's nukes removal are fine? We still have much more to bargain for.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 4:08am by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 4:19am by Evokerofsorts
#36 Dec 09 2012 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hate playing the, "It's a new poster, they gotta be trollin'..." game, but the more this goes on, the more I fear sincerity is waning.

The reason we have a new **** 2 hour on the block is because SE is out of touch and has refused to listen to the RDM community. Trust me, you're talking to someone who's been throwing ideas at them for years to get the job better melee integration. At the same time, I've also argued up and down against things that further solidified Pink Magery or the outright obsolescence of melee in general. I am not alone in this. I have seen other people propose good ideas. I have adapted some to my own concepts. I've seen people propose lots of bad ideas, too. Assuming the utmost sincerity, I'm not trying to bash your ego when saying this, but they're bad ideas. And I have no shortage of contempt for those who simply want to sabotage RDM's future.

At the very least, you're advocating stripping multiple abilities. While this has happened very, very early in the game's life with RDM, Marksmanship, and a couple spells, it hasn't happened since. Red Mage does not need nerfs. That's what they are. We have what we have. What we have can be built upon, contrary to the opinion of at least one individual here who also likes to claim we have Asperger's on the OF. Yes, there are finer adjustments that need to happen under the hood like how Enspells don't play nice with other additional effects like Excalibur or Sambas, but we can live without those. Simply wanting more enfeebles, or enfeebles to mean something, is not reason enough for SE to throw that **** at us. The prior iteration was fine. A lot of us were excited about it. The only thing that needed tweaked was its potency and duration. But somehow, somewhere, they got this idea for Elemental Seal-50. There's so much better they could've done if "We want to be enfeeblers!" was the big message received. Prolonged Saboteur? A Bad Breath-esque spell? Something more unique like the Dischord/Enemy Level Down idea? Trust me, we've thrown lots of things at them. This is just ostrich mode on display and it gets doubly nauseating when bad ideas do pop up.

I hate items with Quick Magic, thus I'll hate some small percentage of Triple Cast. I'll hate my nukes always having double enmity. I'll hate getting watered down and useless spells. For all the **** the backline camp (or trolling outsiders) has done about Temper and how it's self-cast, it's not a useless spell and did a good job in weening us from Joyeuse or Joyeuse-like weapons. The primary thing melee has needed is more incentive to do so, and none of this does that. So, while maybe you have explained something poorly, you definitely haven't flubbed on wanting to nerf the job on multiple postings. I don't care if Vlor wants to get **** at me for being abrasive here, but **** that noise.
#37 Dec 09 2012 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Temper should absolutely be a party cast spell. Cure 5.


No. If you give temper away to buff other party members your dooming redmage to a life of buff cycles forever, it's not suppose to be a party enhancer. No cure V, play WHM for cures, play BLM for nukes. SCH for enhanced enhancements.

Redmage sincerely needs spells of its own, that make it do the role of enfeebling, use of black and white magic that compliment it's role. All with sword enhancements, enspells and temper have been the only ones.

I recommend Aura, Feather, Chaotic Cruelty, triple cast, and Mirror. I've changed it since discussing it with a couple people about it.

Chaotic Cruelty Job trait lvl 36 - Halves mp cost of elemental spells, doubles enmity gain for casting elemental spells.

Triple cast Job trait lvl 75 - Occasionally triples elemental magic cast, at no addtional mp cost. Target doesn't receive tp for additional spells cast.

Aura spell lvl 80 - Haste, temper, Regen, Regain. 100 mp, 5 minute recast. Self cast. Doesn't stack with any of the 4 spells separately.

Feather spell lvl 60 - inhibits targets tp gain, doubles attack speed, lowers attack. 30 mp. Self cast. Stacks nicely with enspells. 5 minute recast.

Mirror spell Lvl 80 - Absorbs set amount of DMG taken by party member until shatters converting DMG absorbed to HP/MP/TP. Effects party members within area of Effect. 80mp. Self cast. 5 minute recast. An overall DMG reduction to all attacks on party members. Thinking each member can absorb 750 DMG, and it then shatters splitting the DMG. 250 HP, 250 MP, 250 TP. Thoughts? I'm thinking absorb 1/3rd of all attacks on party members until it reaches a cap of 750 and then gives returns. That way it's truly defensive.

I'm satisfied with these 3. I've made the best enhancing, enfeebling, and defensive spell I could think of that fits RDM's role. Frankly the best idea ive seen. Now if I could just persuade you guys to hear me out on lowering Tier IV nukes. RDM would be so cool if it could attack the fastest and could triple cast like a gatling gun. It would fit the role so **** perfect. All red AF like its a hot head, just blazing with speed and energy.

If you feel Tier IV nukes need to stay like seriously if they don't stay, RDM dies needs to stay. Fine I won't push it. I was just gonna slide in maybe lower their Tier nuke so they could triple cast, and maybe throw in a native trait that didn't give mob tp from additional nukes in triple cast. If RDM keeps Tier IV's I'm sure it'll be too strong magically then. And it'll be like I just argued for all this for nothing. Just so SE slaps me with a "Over 9000" disclaimer. I feel like this is an awesome idea. Abysea ruined everything in this game.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 7:34am by Evokerofsorts
#38 Dec 09 2012 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Evokerofsorts wrote:
Thanks for point something out, that /SCH is very proficient job for if you want to nuke. Giving enspells to Scholar would make room for the spells I felt would be better for the RDM. But I suppose if you can't part with your enspells, they can stay. Though i still think enhancements like stoneskin should go to SCH, it's better that way, it's way too much survivability in that job. Half you guys will sub /SCH or /WHM anyway.

Few questions: What in the world would SCH do with enspells? Accession them? That's obvious, but take Accession out of the picture. Now what? I suppose you're advocating them going into melee mode or something, but that's even more laughable than DRK putting on mage gear and nuking.

SCH getting Stoneskin: Why? No, seriously. The reason why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin is due to Sublimation. SE didn't want to negate the drawback of the JA right off the bat. SCH has to /WHM or /RDM in order to gain Stoneskin, which means if they ever wanted to go /BLM, they can't have the best of both worlds.

SCH getting Phalanx: Why?

SCH getting Barspells: Why?

To the bolded: Most of my days on RDM, I go /NIN or /BLU. /WHM is in EXP parties/alliances and /BLM is when I'm on Sleepga duty (because for some reason my server still does that in Dynamis). /SCH is used when I need to nuke. If I had BLM leveled, I would be going BLM instead. My WHM is currently 95, so I go WHM whenever I need to heal.

Quote:
Yeah, that's why they should get shield upped to C-. Redmage is also the toughest job to maximize DMG, it's situational.

Or a spell like Aura + Feather + an enspell. Enspells that apparently we're keeping now because it's closing gaps and setting new precedent. No, rouge jobs like thf, dnc, and nin should get DW. I even scratched my head at BLU getting it. And it's seems like youre peddling back to we need to deal DMG, when it's clear knowledge were not a DD class.

I need to rephrase on Enspells apparently.

Enspells + Temper + DD Gear = Your damage not being complete sh*t. Yes, you gear to DD if you're meleeing. Why? Because the best support you can bring is a deader mob. DNC figured this out when they learned that overloading on ACC and storing 300 TP to play support was not the right way to play DNC. Now they're doing their best to dish out as much damage as possible while using their JAs to support when needed. Guess you better head over to the DNC forums and tell them stop using their weaponskills.

No, DNC is not a DD job. Nor is RDM. But they're both not dedicated healers, nor are they dedicated nukers. They're hybrids. They serve to fit multiple roles to increase party efficiency.

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Unless of course they are not subbing SCH and using a sword. Stop trying to play me with this back lines noise.


Because apparently nuking for half-assed damage is A-OK in everyone's book. Nevermind ridding of Tier IV nukes drops our damage considerably. The difference between Tier III and Tier IV is night and day. It's not about being backline, it's about pushing your abilities as far as they can go. The only way this could work is if RDM got M.Acc Trait Boosts.

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"X hits target for 110" *Feather* "X hits target for 55" I imagine that'll look nice if he's doing that at double attack speed with enspell DMG.I meant literally half DMG, not half ATK, my wording was off, figured youd still see the vision. Wasted optimism.


Obviously, Feather's draw-in is the "Inhibits TP gain" aspect of it, but it's negated by the fact that RDM has to strike it for piddly damage (good luck convincing a linkshell, let alone a PUG, to melee in a Zerg scenario. Not even DNC has this privilege). Why even bother lowering our damage anyway? Sword is one of the weakest DD weapons in the game. If you really want to provide a setback for Feather in the melee department, disable the ability to crit.

Quote:

No, no no. There are already so many abilities in this game, there should be concrete traits that are automatically in place to alter game play, that. Clearly define the jobs role when it does someone that another job does. Like nuking, curing, casting etc. if your gonna make it an abilty might as well give to SCH and make it a lame stratagem. This is to make RDM nuke more for less mp, but still get am equal amount of enmity that it would if it still had tier IV Nukes. The way so they can nuke more without additional enmity comes from triple cast. Think of it as purposely giving RDM a weak submachine gun instead of the standard revolver.

Please Altana no more job abilities.


You see, I like the idea. But the issue here is you're making nuking extremely more situational than it already is because it is a job trait. There are times when RDM (or DRK for that matter) does not want to pull hate. I like the concept of "I don't care if I can't outdamage a BLM, I'll just cast more than you" (which is why after some thought, I'm enjoying the thought of Triple Cast), but raising enmity by 100%(double) is not the right way to go about.

And again, why SCH? Give it to DRK and RDM (or make it RDM only), make it affect Elemental/Dark magic only, and separate it into tiers (CC I would be -20% MP Cost, CC II would be -30%, etc.)

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And you want to cap the DA rate at level 60? It's impossible to hit 20% without 500 Enhancing skill. That's a considerable change.


Lower the required skill to cap it. So it can be used at a lower level, to give RDM a taste of meleeing at fast speed. Before Aura, to make it feel like a fencer.


I don't object to this, outside of Temper being capped at low levels and negating it to push it's cap further. However, I'm with Seriha on keeping Temper as a RDM exclusive. At the very least, it should be level 50. I understand there's Aura in your concept, but I'm more than convinced that SE would make the individual spells more powerful than the super spell.

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Utsusemi, is /NIN. Stoneskin and phalanx I'm convinced should go. I'm not saying their bad, stoneskin is the amazing. I'm just saying when I was coming up with these amazing job traits, spells, abilities I just felt it would never happen, and only way it could happen is if RDM lost a bunch of things that SE deems too powerful. Stoneskin fell into that category, given that most likely people who want SS, sub whm and SCH anyway, just give to SCH and call it an enhancing job. And I already said this is an alternative to convert, incase your front lines mid fight and want to make use of a frontline version at half the timer. Except unlike convert the HP/MP goes off how you are hit instead just swapping your MP/HP. RDM/NIN + enfeebles + stoneskin is cool. This move is more for taking big tp moves from mobs with open arms, suddenly RDM now can absorb 1000 needles, astral flows, bombs, self destruct. I know most people would rather just be able to reduce DMG, or shadow tank, but for RDM it could use some originality.

Adding alternatives to convert instead running out of battle range. I want to imagine we without subjobs when discussing RDM balance, because if I mention updating meleeing you bring up /NIN, And if I'm casting you bring up /SCH. I'm taking the job as a stand alone, what can go and what can stay about the job. I'm trying to make RDM really fast, without taking its core idea in mind.


The problem with that mentality is subjobs are part of the game once you hit level 18. -A lot- of job balance comes from subjob use. It makes jobs go from "zero to hero". Could you imagine BLM being BLM without a support job? SE would have to give a large update to not have dead bodies everywhere. The reason why DNC and BLU got Dual Wield is not because "it makes sense", but because SE wanted to allow them to utilize other subjobs and not stay married to /NIN.

RDM and BLU are the only jobs that can sub any job and gain some use of it, because both jobs are so self-sufficient on it's own that their losses aren't as heavy as other jobs when subbing something oddball. RDM in particular gains a -heavy- role shift depending on what subjob it uses. /BLU means you're supertanking, /WHM means you're support, /WAR means you're dealing damage, etc.

As for your explanation of Mirror. I wasn't sure Mirror would be affected by AoE moves, but since it does. I see it's uses now.

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Well I'm glad I was able to get your full support on two of my ideas, I'm still certain feather needs more convincing, simply because I sold it improperly. Understand I don't think well get those jobs abilities/spells/traits unless we get rid of some spells RDM has that it doesn't use, or need. Stoneskin can be used on other Jobs. Rdm doesnt need it. Pitching alternatives are closer to getting SE's attention. I honestly Feel the reason we got that terrible 2 hour is that the community is begging for more enfeebles, and for redmage to be party inclusive without making it play it's intended role, because it's "too situational". Mobs are too strong, and rdm should be back lines where its "safe". You are making me think, mirror should be a spell.

So, am I assuming that Barspells , aquaviel, blink, Diaga, Tier IV's nukes removal are fine? We still have much more to bargain for.


Bolded: I hate being in the backline as RDM. I'd rather be WHM, BLM, or SCH. All three are better at the job anyway.

I prefer if all the spells stayed, though I wouldn't cry a river if Aquaviel and Blink were gone. I see no reason to remove Diaga, it's a harmless spell that serves as our only AoE magic without SJ use. You would need something considerable to replace Barspells and Tier IV nukes(Especially if you want your Triple Cast idea to work), and stuff like CC and Mirror aren't enough.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 11:17am by HeroMystic

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 11:19am by HeroMystic
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#39 Dec 09 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
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SCH getting Stoneskin: Why? No, seriously. The reason why SCH doesn't get Stoneskin is due to Sublimation. SE didn't want to negate the drawback of the JA right off the bat. SCH has to /WHM or /RDM in order to gain Stoneskin, which means if they ever wanted to go /BLM, they can't have the best of both worlds.


AoE DMG reduction for SCH the same as SMN. Lifting their need to sub RDM or WHM for it.

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SCH getting Phalanx: Why?


AoE DMG reduction to extend to the party. It's an enhancement that serves little role other than minor DMG reduction.

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SCH getting Barspells: Why?


AoE DMG reduction to extend to the party. It's an enhancement that serves as major elemental DMG reduction. SCH is an enhancement job, granted RDM is self enhancement. It's not a major factor of its survivability yet I can imagine the bundle of Barspells granting instant half DMG/resists to almost every attack in the game is one reason SE feels RDM is too powerful. It's not about whether it's actually true, it is situational, but if we expect to get more offensive traits, spells, abilities. I think we need to consider losing some magic defense spells, we practically have every WHM one. They gave all of this to RDM before SCH was even considered. Mirror could be a healthy alternative to that would serve as phalanx, and Elemental Barspells, with a twist. It could step on WHM toes for healing, so may need to just convert the DMG to tp/mp.



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Enspells + Temper + DD Gear = Your damage not being complete sh*t. Yes, you gear to DD if you're meleeing. Why? Because the best support you can bring is a deader mob.


Valedictorian of RDM school.

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No, DNC is not a DD job. Nor is RDM. But they're both not dedicated healers, nor are they dedicated nukers. They're hybrids. They serve to fit multiple roles to increase party efficiency.


I'm going to request that you remember these words. RDM cannot temporarily tank, even though in reality give it a couple JA's and a potent enough set of spells could allow them this ability even on more formidable foes, without shadows. And I'm pretty sure I'm right on what's required for RDM to increase its versatility. It's a matter now of timers, mp cost, enmity gain, exact DMG reduction amount.


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Because apparently nuking for half-assed damage is A-OK in everyone's book. Nevermind ridding of Tier IV nukes drops our damage considerably. The difference between Tier III and Tier IV is night and day. It's not about being backline, it's about pushing your abilities as far as they can go. The only way this could work is if RDM got M.Acc Trait Boosts.


What a grand idea, so RDM gets magic accuracy boosts. Loses skill chain bonus traits I suggested. How many tiers? It could be a new trait for us considering it's hasn't been natively given to any job before. Seeing as we're direct enfeeblers with weak nukes, seems fair. I'm not even being sarcastic that's a really good idea.

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Obviously, Feather's draw-in is the "Inhibits TP gain" aspect of it, but it's negated by the fact that RDM has to strike it for piddly damage (good luck convincing a linkshell, let alone a PUG, to melee in a Zerg scenario. Not even DNC has this privilege). Why even bother lowering our damage anyway? Sword is one of the weakest DD weapons in the game. If you really want to provide a setback for Feather in the melee department, disable the ability to crit.


SE is trying to do away with Zerg options, remember those SMN's screaming about perfect defense? And SCH with embrava. RDM already has something for zerging options it's called chainspell + stun. SE is scared sh*tless of it, it's a major reason why they are hesitant to give us anything at all. Which is making me scratch my head looking at mirror now. It's a perfect defense of its own stacked with chainspell, probably should make it cost more mp so that the rdm's can only spam it a few times in 1 minute. Adding a long casting time or recasting time doesn't matter because again...RDM..

Feather isn't for Zerg fights, it's not at all. It's about as much a contribution to a Zerg fight as elegy or Addle attached to a DoT. It's for battles where you actually have to fight something, not spam to win. And again, for feather, take a look. I mean lower DMG but doubled ATK speed is. It's literally the same DMG in one minute, the same tp in one minute. As if it were normal, only difference is extra enspike DMG maybe, inhibited tp, and appearance, a really fast sword user. Now the WS would be gimped, unless that also negated mob tp gain. Hence, why I compiled fencer I, II, And III. To soften the blow of this JA for RDM's who need high numbers during WS to sleep better at night. RDM should get it, RDM should get the highest fencer trait of all, but I'm trying to ease in. When I want to go full speed ahead.

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You see, I like the idea. But the issue here is you're making nuking extremely more situational than it already is because it is a job trait. There are times when RDM (or DRK for that matter) does not want to pull hate. I like the concept of "I don't care if I can't outdamage a BLM, I'll just cast more than you" (which is why after some thought, I'm enjoying the thought of Triple Cast), but raising enmity by 100%(double) is not the right way to go about.


Now we're getting somewhere, your problem with it is the similar to feather. In that the double penalty is too steep a penalty. So if I made it so that it increases enmity gain, instead of doubles enmity gain. It has immediately become a good job trait. I also was thinking no tp gain for the mob from the 2nd and 3rd cast. Since apparently magic DMG instant gives a mob 10 tp, that would be very counter productive to what I'm trying to achieve here.

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And again, why SCH? Give it to DRK and RDM (or make it RDM only), make it affect Elemental/Dark magic only, and separate it into tiers (CC I would be -20% MP Cost, CC II would be -30%, etc.)


I'd like to do that, if SE makes tranquil heart two traits, and increases enmity shed for casting healing magic, it would be nice and even. Though I still wouldn't make Chaotic Cruelty work for dark magic, it's mp and enmity is just fine.

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And you want to cap the DA rate at level 60? It's impossible to hit 20% without 500 Enhancing skill. That's a considerable change.


Lower the required skill to cap it. So it can be used at a lower level, to give RDM a taste of meleeing at fast speed. Before Aura, to make it feel like a fencer.


I don't object to this, outside of Temper being capped at low levels and negating it to push it's cap further. However, I'm with Seriha on keeping Temper as a RDM exclusive. At the very least, it should be level 50. I understand there's Aura in your concept, but I'm more than convinced that SE would make the individual spells more powerful than the super spell.


But I want people to sub it. 40/80 looks better than 50/90. Things like that kill me inside. Could work, though Id prefer to keep it 40. Didn't SE make it so SCH couldn't accession haste, because it would gimp Garuda's Hastega? I figure it should be like that, any job that subs it can use it. Only job that would be able to reap it's full benefits being RDM, WHM, and SCH (with capped enhancing) by being able to melee with it. That sounds fair. No enhancing magic, enjoy your 5% DA. For paladin it would be able to achieve full effect, this of course if its enhancing cap requirement is lowered to cap 60 like i feel its suppose to. I could see a PLD,DRG,DRK, BLU, taking this with open arms. I know sometimes they like to use that sub, it'd be cool to give an additional perk. That wouldn't be broken at all. If you feel this is too much for PLD, hey they could gimp anyone who subs RDM anyway, they've done that for several job Abilties/ meditate is what comes to mind.

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The reason why DNC and BLU got Dual Wield is not because "it makes sense", but because SE wanted to allow them to utilize other subjobs and not stay married to /NIN


But that's the thing, any job that melees with one handed weapons and wants to take little DMG is going to marry NIN. It doesn't mean every job should get dual wield, RDM should be fast attacking without the need of dual wield, I do think they should get the shield, just for keeping them out the bowl of those other DD's. DW for RDM should just be an option through sub. They gave it to DNC for all the other melees that liked dnc abilities but can't build tp fast enough to maintain it. So giving it natively to another job serves little purpose it's been well dispersed. Thf maybe should get 3 tiers of it starting at lvl 40,60,80. Maybe even ranger at 80. But I don't see it going to RDM definitely doesn't need it at all. Not remotely a rogue type job. So exactly how many tiers of fencer would out perform dual wield on RDM exactly?

[quote]RDM and BLU are the only jobs that can sub any job and gain some use of it, because both jobs are so self-sufficient on it's own that their losses aren't as heavy as other jobs when subbing something oddball. RDM in particular gains a -heavy- role shift depending on what subjob it uses. /BLU means you're supertanking, /WHM means you're support, /WAR means you're dealing damage, etc.[/quote]

A lot of melees like DRK, PLD, DRG, use /RDM to decrease casting time, refresh, convert, stoneskin, aquaviel, dia spam. More or less, enfeebles, mp return, fast cast. Now RDM cut in half should best give you an idea of what the other half of RDM should be. add in temper to the mix and DD might even show up to an event as /RDM. This of course if we're not talking about Zerging.

[quote]As for your explanation of Mirror. I wasn't sure Mirror would be affected by AoE moves, but since it does. I see it's uses now.[/quote]

Yeah, I added, when you said it was insufficient. I think it should cost more mp though. Like 120-150 mp. Its return is 250 mp. Seems reasonable. I know the rest of the party wouldn't complain.


[quote]I prefer if all the spells stayed, though I wouldn't cry a river if Aquaviel and Blink were gone. I see no reason to remove Diaga, it's a harmless spell that serves as our only AoE magic without SJ use. You would need something considerable to replace Barspells and Tier IV nukes(Especially if you want your Triple Cast idea to work), and stuff like CC and Mirror aren't enough.
[/quote]

Just using RDM current spell list chumps as leverage. The overall effect of triple cast could be additional nukes don't gain additional enmity, don't give the mob additional tp, and do the same DMG as the initial spell. Does that sound better?

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 9:25pm by Evokerofsorts
#40 Dec 10 2012 at 12:31 AM Rating: Default
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So, over all this is what were looking at.

Increase Red Mage shield skill from F to C-

(Job Trait) Shield Mastery I, II, III, IV

(Job Trait) Fencer I, II, III, IV

(New Job Trait) Magic accuracy I, II, III, IV, V

(New Job Trait) Chaotic cruelty I, II - lower elemental mp cost, increases enmity gain when casting elemental magic.

(Job Spell) Temper - lowered to lvl 40, caps at 10% potency for anyone subbing RDM.

(New Job Spell) Feather lvl 60 - Lowers ATK, doubles ATK speed , inhibits targets tp gain with every strike. 30 mp, 5 minute duration. (self cast)

(New Job Trait) Triple cast I, II, III - occasionally casts elemental magic 2 additional times, without additional enmity or mp cost. Additional spells deal same amount of DMG as initial cast. Mob does not receive additional tp for extra casts.

(New Job Spell)Aura lvl 80 - grants Regen, regain, temper, haste. 80 mp, 5 minute duration. (self cast)

(New Job Ability)Mirror lvl 80 - Reduces/Absorbs DMG by 1/3 taken by all party members within area of effect. Capping at 750 DMG absorbed and dispersing it to party members restoring, TP, MP, and HP. 5 minute duration. Recast 10 minutes.


Mirror once it absorbs 750 DMG it converts it 3 ways. If 5 minutes ends and you don't reach the cap, it converts the DMG 3 ways. Make it an active abilty like avatars favor, except like 15". You leave the party, get out of range, or die and party lose the effect, it cashes out and you have to wait for recast. Sounds good. This to make sure if party wants the effect they have to keep you.

Removal of Tier IV nukes. - Given to Dark knight.

Removal of Barspells - Given to Scholar.

Anything I've left out? Anything Else need addressing?

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 12:52am by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 12:54am by Evokerofsorts
#41 Dec 10 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Enhancing and Enfeebling Magic skill applying to all spells potency will fix 99% of the issues RDM faces. Most notably that XXX/RDM is as useful to a group as RDM/XXX. Everything else you have listed for adjustment or addition is a placebo. Just like Refresh II was and Haste II will be. Piling more **** onto **** doesn't give you better **** just a bigger pile.

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#42 Dec 10 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Enhancing and Enfeebling Magic skill applying to all spells potency will fix 99% of the issues RDM faces. Most notably that XXX/RDM is as useful to a group as RDM/XXX. Everything else you have listed for adjustment or addition is a placebo. Just like Refresh II was and Haste II will be. Piling more sh*t onto sh*t doesn't give you better sh*t, just a bigger pile.



Explain how it's a placebo, don't just say it is. Doing that to all spells would gimp /RDM and I feel people have a right to sub it as we do any other job. Imagine if they made healing magic or divine magic effect potency of -na spells. Or low level BLU,SMN,DRK, BLM, effected solely on their respective magic skill. Ninja shadows effected by ninjitsu skill for example. It would make subjobs weaker and less a point to sub it, and this game should be expanding flexibility.

Ive compiled the best assortment of traits,abilities, and spells that best address RDM role in a party, it's positioning, and it's current problem. Haste II is a waste of a spell, it's just for People who lack creativity and feel faster DMG to all melees will suddenly make RDM worth having in the party. Then WHM and SMN will get it, and it'll be like nothing was ever changed, because those are the better support than RDM. Red Mage needs a strong defensive spell beneficial to the party, that gives bonuses to the party. Mirror mimics phalanx, refresh, regen, regain, and convert all in one abilty, AoE for everyone to benefit from. Its an abilty and not a spell to prevent chainspell spam.

Rdm needs a sword enfeeble, that both hinders the mob, and grants bonuses to its physical attacks, feather is a good sword enfeeble, a good one that gives RDM a reason to go front lines. Let it stack with enspells and welcome to god tier. Tier II enspells make the target weak to the opposite element your hitting him with. Cast Enthunder II then cast Stone III, triple cast could crit and will make the 2nd and 3rd cast hit for the same as the initial cast. Not to mention your doing this at a fraction of the mp cost, and can do it multiple times more. All while not reducing targets tp gain with sword strikes, that do the same DMG in a minutes time just with more swings, plus extra enspell DMG from your double ATK speed. Not dealing half DMG, just looking really fast really really fast.

Solved the rdm problem, no autographs please. SE needs to see this and hire me.

Edited, Dec 10th 2012 9:11pm by Evokerofsorts
#43 Dec 10 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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OMG... I really want to be involved, but so many words so little time.....I'm just happy we're talking again!
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#44 Dec 11 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Evokerofsorts wrote:
Explain how it's a placebo, don't just say it is. Doing that to all spells would gimp /RDM and I feel people have a right to sub it as we do any other job. Imagine if they made healing magic or divine magic effect potency of -na spells. Or low level BLU,SMN,DRK, BLM, effected solely on their respective magic skill. Ninja shadows effected by ninjitsu skill for example. It would make subjobs weaker and less a point to sub it, and this game should be expanding flexibility.


It is a placebo because it did not change the problem that was caused. Refresh II did nothing to benefit RDM in any meaningful fashion for the sole reason Refresh was now available under the subjob level. The problem that was caused is it allowed several jobs to perform that duty themselves, and in particular 2 jobs to now perform that ability better than RDM. BRD with their Ballads and Refresh Combined is more than Refresh II, and COR with Evokers Roll and Refresh is more than Refresh II or at the least as good as refresh II.

Why haste II will be a placebo is for the same exact reasons it does not fix the problem with the system. Again subbing RDM provides access to Haste, now many jobs can be capable of performing a haste cycle, but again lets focus on BRD and COR. Both jobs have the ability to provide a haste effect. One is seldom used due to its TP reductive nature, and 1 is oft the backbone of any zerg strategy. But what both BRD and COR have in common is that with Haste + Their native buff they already dominate anything that RDM can put out. Haste II is a placebo for this issue, unless it is capping magic haste in 1 spell it will not compete with BRD/RDM (although it will compete with COR because no one uses Blitzers anyhow.)

Perhaps now you are seeing the theme, SE screws something up, and slips in a placebo to "fix" the problem. Want to know something that BRD and COR have in common as well when they /RDM. Convert, the ability for large amounts of Refresh, High amounts of haste and other buffs, and the ability to, despite having native mana, to have a full pool every 10 minutes. Plenty to maintain Refresh and Haste cycles, in addition to their own non-MP cost group benefits.

You may also notice that BRD and COR, have a big fat 0 in the Enhancing magic school. Yet destroy RDM in providing the very same buffs in the end.

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Ive compiled the best assortment of traits,abilities, and spells that best address RDM role in a party, it's positioning, and it's current problem. Haste II is a waste of a spell, it's just for People who lack creativity and feel faster DMG to all melees will suddenly make RDM worth having in the party. Then WHM and SMN will get it, and it'll be like nothing was ever changed, because those are the better support than RDM. Red Mage needs a strong defensive spell beneficial to the party, that gives bonuses to the party. Mirror mimics phalanx, refresh, regen, regain, and convert all in one abilty, AoE for everyone to benefit from. Its an abilty and not a spell to prevent chainspell spam.


No you have compiled a list of abilities that RDM does not need in a group situation. You have stripped RDM in abilities it does need in a group situation, and in a solo situation. What RDM needs is for its spells and abilities it posses now, to reflect its skill level in those said abilities. There is no reason its abilities as a subjob should be received at maximum potential as the main job. Period. Comparatively BRD and COR both see reductions by 50% and allow for only one beneficial effect to be placed.

**** this even applies to Dia II the second best offensive buff RDM has to offer a group as a support job. While Dia III is better, a COR can match its effect.

Perhaps now you see the placebo, the issue, it is not with the abilities, or the spells, it is how the abilities and spells work, and how RDM is involved in them. The most powerful things RDM can offer, are all static caps, meaning any job can hit them. The enfeebling scaling between T1 and T2 is pathetic, the fact SCH WHM and BLM can all land slow para blind as effectively as RDM is absurd, perhaps even more absurd is the fact NIN enfeebles land as well as our T2's, although the most absurd is that we require merit points to attain these spells, and despite all the math trickery in the world you can not maximize the effect on all of them. Meaning at best you have 1 that is slightly more powerful than the T1 versions of the same spell or 3 that are pathetically better (like mathematically not worth mentioning). The fact that despite our B skill in dagger and sword, we are left off skills other B classes can get (Vorpal Blade) and other gear classes with similar martial diversity have access to (THF/RNG/MNK/NIN/BLU).

Those are what is wrong with RDM.

Enfeebling Skill counting for naught past level 75
Enhancing Skill meaning nothing past level 75
Weapon Skill levels not being properly represented.

It is the exact same issue that RDM faced with healing a while back, and unlike the popular issue (give RDM Cure V or something like Cure V) SE decided to adjust the mechanics of healing instead of piling more **** on it. They adjusted the post 75 levels for healing magic skill to provide more healing power. To jobs with the native skill. It was the same idea I pitched then, and it is the same now.

RDM has the tools, the tools just need to work, and they need to be better than the tools the other guy has. It doesn't need more tools. it needs functional ones.

But even then that is only half the problem....

SE needs to address the issue they have with TP spam if effects like paralyze and slow, do not apply to a monsters ability to perform special attacks, RDM will still be under represented, however that is something that SE has planned to address (reducing mob TP build) but have given no specifics on how that would work. However if it is lowered drasticly or reduced completely on the player end (TP feeding) this not only opens the door to enfeebles being useful again (reducing incoming mob attacks reducing their TP gain further) but also opening the door to the allowance of more DD jobs, as TP feed/Damage will not be as relevant. Which directly supports the frontline RDM in us all.

HOWEVER. SE needs to fix the mechanics first, because placebos, they address nothing.
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#45 Dec 11 2012 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:

Gonna disagree with party-cast Temper (surprise?!) but can understand why people want it. Instead, I'd rather SE rescind their stance on RDM basically becoming a sphere hub for specific buffs. The gist here would be that Haste, Phalanx, Refresh, Regen, Gain, Enspell, Barspells, and Temper could all affect everyone within a 10 yalm radius of the RDM. For each spell the RDM has up, triggering the ability to apply the sphere would apply a 1 MP/tick drain per spell active on the RDM. So, if you have 9 spells up, you're losing 9 MP/tick. Actually casting a spell on someone would take priority, so even if you move out of range, they'd keep the buff(s). So, if people REALLY want Temper, they'll have to concede to keeping a RDM with AoE range, which shouldn't surprise others on where I'm heading next...

Yup, more incentive to melee. Cycles are one of the reasons that hurt this, and with the above largely curbing that, we're left to tackle the other cumulative aspects. First would be better gear, ideally of the hybrid slant without compromising stats from either mage or melee. This will also help alleviate inventory issues a bit. While I'm okay with spells mirroring melee traits like Temper does Double Attack, I don't think 2 levels of Attack/Accuracy Bonus and full Fencer would destroy the game. Unlocking EX sword WS would be.


^this, I was looking for a way to compile all those enhancements into one, it doesnt make sense for RDM to cast all those spells individually, that's all Aura is about. (this assuming rdm gets regain) If they could make an ability that saved a spell list, and let you cast all of them in the combined spell cast and mp cost combined, would save so much frickin time. I got my Mirror idea from this, keeping them in the 10 Yalm radius so you have to be front lines for the melees is ideal. I guess any longer and you'll be cuddling out back with the BLM, WHM, SMN and SCH once more.

I'm making a guess they took regain from embrava to make it more Mage friendly, and give the support enhancement to a job that actually melees. RDM, COR, or SMN. Though it could end up being preparation for one of the new jobs to come that might need something that'll get them invited to the cool kids table.

And also, Whoah rdmcandle, I don't give two flying firagas about enfeebling skill or it's potency, I don't care about refresh II, or haste Ii, I never said I wanted to do anything to it. I said that temper should be allowed to be used with subs, but capping at 10% potency(half potency) for /RDM. There's WHM, BLM, SCH, and DRK that all use enfeebles, are you thinking about how it will effect their enfeeble accuracy? I mean again, I don't care about this, all the ideas I proposed are not effected by this at all.

....wait this is about haste and refresh? That's all this is about? Ugh, gimping /RDM sub so that it properly represents that it is a sub. So RDM doesn't have to compete with BRD and COR, jobs that can buff the party and use /RDM buffs without seeing any kind of penalty for lack of skill. And...instead of trying to get your job changed to a support tank/DD/magic caster you'd rather nerf the back line AoE buffers. That can do less DMG than you? Well, corsair isn't that weak, they do have a gun after all. Sounds like some intense hatery. sh*t I'm stumped. I actually don't want to do that enhancing, enfeebling idea, just because of the jobs like pld, drk, Blu, and DRG that aren't supports at all. But I have no idea what to do, you bring up a legitimate problem to the world of RDM. I say...@#%^ the enhancing idea, make the RDM exclusive magic cost double mp subbed. That'll put a major bump in the road for them. Same for haste. Next case.

Bah, just great, I know this should get attention, and just made my amazing abilities take a back seat to . **** nerds and their number crunching :/ mark my words, after those enfeeble adjustments RDM will be the greatest frontlines fighter the world has ever seen.
Edited, Dec 11th 2012 4:04am by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 4:32am by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 6:06am by Evokerofsorts
#46 Dec 11 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Any "Quick Magic" ability should not be random. It should be like a mini- 2hr with no casting time for one or two spells with a 5-15 min timer.
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#47 Dec 11 2012 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
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No you're right, and it's why I considered keeping tier IV nukes if the triple cast couldn't be consistent. So, I figured 3 tiers of triple cast should be implemented. At respective amounts of 33%, 66%, and 99% chance of activation. For every 33 levels of RDM, instantly gives a major incentive for BLM, SCH, DRK to want to sub /RDM.

Keep in mind a lvl 99 RDM would only have tier 3 nukes but have chaotic cruelty so it can cast at half mp cost. So thunder III costs 128 normally, would instead cost 64 mp, and would instant cast 2 additional times with triple cast, with no additional mp cost. 64 mp for 3 thunder III's, static dmg across the board, 2 additional spells dealing the same DMG as the first. making nuking very cost effective for redmage. Chaotic cruelty would also increase enmity by 20%, and 30%. This seems like a disadvantage, if a RDM is casting weaker spells of a SCH or BLM but keep I'm mind this is to both lower mp cost so RDM can stay in the fight, and force RDM to either nukes intelligently with staffs back lines, or nuke aggressively frontlines with enspells.

Magically speaking, this compliments rdms already existing traits, of maintaining a limitless mp pool, so it can melee more, and not have to /heal as much. Compliments quick cast, fast cast, and chainspell. It functions no different than if you did have tier 4 spells, it just clearly will not have the high spike DMG as Tier 4 nukes. All it does is change the aesthetic delivery of RDM, lifts the burden of its limited elemental mp casting when meleeing, and would be an original representation of RDM fast casting magical prowess.

Not to mention it would make more sense, after 75 RDM shouldn't get any extra curing or elemental magic, period. it'd only be stealing other jobs thunder quite literally.

Meteor is non elemental magic DMG, and I'm sure letting a BLM cast any ancient magic 3 times static sounds ape sh*t crazy, gimp the trait when /RDM. To 15% and call it fair.

But I'm pretty sure Mirror addresses the whole refresh COR and BRD problem. It mitigates DMG, converts it to MP, HP, and TP. Every 10 minutes, lasting 5 minutes, within area of effect(10 yalms). it serves as a direct support for front line fighters, giving RDM a permanent spot in the tank party of the alliance. Add in their tp enfeeble, and it's practically a surgeon for any delicate fights that COR and BRD wouldn't be equipped to handle. Requires a shield to use, so you can't be the amazing offensive extraordinaire with dual wielding.

In addition feather which lowers ATK and doubles ATK speed. "target hits X for 100 DMG" *Feather* "Target hits X for 50 DMG" would then allow you do deal double DMG with enspells by doubling your ATK rounds. So in a way making you ATK more magical than physical, which is suitable for a Mage type. Especially RDM whose main offense is elemental magic, enfeeble and enspell DMG. perfect spells.


Edited, Dec 11th 2012 6:40pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 7:29pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 7:50pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 8:13pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 8:23pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 10:14pm by Evokerofsorts
#48 Dec 11 2012 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
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Evo wrote:
No you're right, and it's why I considered keeping tier IV nukes if the triple cast couldn't be consistent. So, I figured 3 tiers of triple cast should be implemented. At respective amounts of 33%, 66%, and 99% chance of activation. For every 33 levels of RDM, instantly gives a major incentive for BLM, SCH, DRK to want to sub /RDM.

Keep in mind a lvl 99 RDM would only have tier 3 nukes but have chaotic cruelty so it can cast at half mp cost. So thunder III costs 128 normally, would instead cost 64 mp, and would instant cast 2 additional times with triple cast, with no additional mp cost. 64 mp for 3 thunder III's, static dmg across the board, 2 additional spells dealing the same DMG as the first. making nuking very cost effective for redmage.


I'm not sure why you want to touch tier IV when there's tier V spells. I would agree with you if there weren't more powerful spells than tier IV, but that isn't the case. Tier IV spells allow RDM to nuke to a point where the damage is more than the mp cost, i.e. tolerable. I wouldn't rather have a double consistent ability at a timer with tier IV than a random triple timer with tier III. Remember, nuking is part of RDM.

Evo wrote:
Not to mention it would make more sense, after 75 RDM shouldn't get any extra curing or elemental magic, period. it'd only be stealing other jobs thunder quite literally.


Simply no... Why would you even want this? If RDM is a Jack of all trades, then all the trades need to level as your job does.

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#49 Dec 11 2012 at 9:50 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure why you want to touch tier IV when there's tier V spells. I would agree with you if there weren't more powerful spells than tier IV, but that isn't the case. Tier IV spells allow RDM to nuke to a point where the damage is more than the mp cost, i.e. tolerable. I wouldn't rather have a double consistent ability at a timer with tier IV than a random triple timer with tier III. Remember, nuking is part of RDM.

Evo wrote:
Not to mention it would make more sense, after 75 RDM shouldn't get any extra curing or elemental magic, period. it'd only be stealing other jobs thunder quite literally.


Simply no... Why would you even want this? If RDM is a Jack of all trades, then all the trades need to level as your job does.



Except somehow sword was severely left behind, I'm just trying to balance the job properly, I know it needs a major defensive boost to withstand close range fighting for end game. Enhanced buffs to make the party want a rdm and at the same time giving it ways of boosting DMG with the sword DPS. RDM doesn't necessarily need it's high DMG nukes, it needs fast casting nukes. I do see that SCH does have tier V nukes, don't know why I thought they didn't. Hmmm...well I don't know how to defensively increase it when it clearly has so much already. I...also see cure IV is absolutely something a RDM can't lose, and I can't stand uneven ness between black magic, and white magic. I guess that'd have to stay too, but then my triple cast would be too powerful. T_T
#50 Dec 11 2012 at 11:01 PM Rating: Default
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And also, Whoah rdmcandle, I don't give two flying firagas about enfeebling skill or it's potency, I don't care about refresh II, or haste Ii, I never said I wanted to do anything to it. I said that temper should be allowed to be used with subs, but capping at 10% potency(half potency) for /RDM. There's WHM, BLM, SCH, and DRK that all use enfeebles, are you thinking about how it will effect their enfeeble accuracy? I mean again, I don't care about this, all the ideas I proposed are not effected by this at all.


Of you course you don't care about enfeebling or refresh or haste. But just because you don't care does not mean the base mechanics are bad. You asked what I meant by placebo, I told you what it is, Refresh II is a placebo, haste II will be a placebo. Why should temper be allowed to be used as a sub job? So BRD and COR can apply it as well under their MP fountain with no native enhancing skill or MP for that matter.

As for adjusting the enfeebling magic skill on enfeebles potency. WHM BLM SCH DRK will all experience similar increases over level 75. As Potency progression increases with skill past level 75 any job with the native enfeebling skill will experience a bonus from it. Any job. This is a direct buff to enfeebling magic potency, As for MACC this isn't going to be affected at all because that algorithim is all ready functioning in game. Enfeebling Skill affecting Potency is designed for one reason and one reason only, RDM being the best at enfeebling, period. It would out scale in T1's and its T2's would cap higher than a NIN's enfeebles.


Quote:
....wait this is about haste and refresh? That's all this is about? Ugh, gimping /RDM sub so that it properly represents that it is a sub. So RDM doesn't have to compete with BRD and COR, jobs that can buff the party and use /RDM buffs without seeing any kind of penalty for lack of skill. And...instead of trying to get your job changed to a support tank/DD/magic caster you'd rather nerf the back line AoE buffers. That can do less DMG than you? Well, corsair isn't that weak, they do have a gun after all. Sounds like some intense hatery. sh*t I'm stumped. I actually don't want to do that enhancing, enfeebling idea, just because of the jobs like pld, drk, Blu, and DRG that aren't supports at all.


/RDM won't be gimped. Adjusting mechanics post level 75 do not alter mechanics below level 75. Meaning the mechanics of /RDM will remain intact, the only change being that RDM mains ability to perform those same tasks is a lot further advanced. However even if /RDM was nerfed, this in no way nerfs the benefits that BRD and COR both provide, the issue with BRD and COR is that they are RDM mains competition, and through utilizing /RDM they completely remove RDM from the equation. RDM offers nothing to a group as a main, that it does not provide as a sub, because of COR and BRD's obvious lack of MP Convert is a powerful tool, when filling a support position, offensively it benefits COR pretty well (MAB bonus). Changing Enhancing and Enfeebling so RDM main is clearly better than /RDM in terms of its abilities and spells has no effect on the ability for BRD or COR to function.As for RDM out damaging a COR or a BRD, debatable. BRD arguably has access to better DD gear than RDM, it has better self buffs for melee and it spends less time casting those buffs. COR beats both of them so thats not even worth tabling, in a straight DD race, RDM would likely win, because its Buffs stay on longer, meaning it can melee more often than a BRD, in a support role applying supplemental damage BRD would likely win out because it spends less total time casting than RDM meaning more up time for melee. The jobs are actually remarkably similar in terms of offensive capability. But BRD also increases everyones damage more than a RDM, and a BRD/RDM has Dia II as well leaving RDM really only Dia III as its "win" spell...but then again COR increases everyones damage more than RDM, COR/RDM has Dia II, which it can make into a quasi Dia III, and it can out damage a RDM while doing it.

So ya I am not following your position on BRD and COR being weaker in an offensive role. (assuming you are excluding nuking which I hope you are because that seems to be a one sided observation)


Quote:
But I have no idea what to do, you bring up a legitimate problem to the world of RDM. I say...@#%^ the enhancing idea, make the RDM exclusive magic cost double mp subbed. That'll put a major bump in the road for them. Same for haste. Next case


No I bring up one of the three major issues concerning RDM, it is the major issue, it is the one that keeps us from groups. As long as a job such as BRD or COR, or even SCH, or one of your extra BLM's brings /RDM everything RDM main provides to a group is now accessible at an even level. This is the single largest drawback to RDM. Until /RDM is not providing the same utility (on effectively any job to be quite honest) as RDM main, you are just adding sh*t on to sh*t for the sake of it. AKA a placebo.

It is the same basic principle I brought up to SE during the healing magic crunch. Back when folks like Seriha were clamoring that RDM needed Cure V or a Cure V equivalent. I suggested increasing the effect of healing magic on jobs post 75. Which SE implemented directly buffing the major healing spells for RDM PLD and SCH and buffing secondary healing spells of WHM. The main jobs all recieved a buff to healing, because jobs like BRD, COR, SMN, BLU were capable of using the same spells (C3/C4) at sub job level and hitting similar cure caps as RDM/WHM/SCH/PLD and 2 of those jobs had access to much of the same Cure+% gear, essentially rendering both RDM and SCH obsolete as support healers, because why bring an extra body that can be DD.

Where are the people crying for C5 or a C5 like spell now? Gone because the problem is not the tools, the problem is the mechanics of the game. They were designed and worked in a 75 world, the world is 99 now, and the mechanics are not functioning as effectively for some elements as they should be.

Quote:
Except somehow sword was severely left behind, I'm just trying to balance the job properly, I know it needs a major defensive boost to withstand close range fighting for end game.


Sword skill is fine, as is dagger skill, our sword options are great, our dagger options not so much. I don't get where severely behind comes from to be honest with you. As for being more defensive RDM is not designed to stand in melee range for extended period of time, it never was and it never should be. (exception RDM/NIN tanking but that should be obvious). RDM is designed to buff the party, debuff the opponent, and then. If applicable enter melee range and attack the mob, or stand back and nuke the mob. In some cases you can get away with meleeing for a period of time and then retreating during TP moves to nuke a couple times, and repeat.

This is why RDM melee is often frowned upon. You are not a DD, you do not have the staying power nor the damage output to warrant constant melee range attacks. You are also not a nuker, you have the ability to nuke but they are relatively under powered and inaccurate. RDM Damage is supplemental, and it is non uniform, in some fights melee damage is more useful to a group, in other elemental. These situations are what define good RDM's from bad.

You can not take from one and give to the other because the job is balanced around being useful in both...depending on the situation.

As for your triple cast idea, it is bad and you should feel bad.


Edited, Dec 12th 2012 12:02am by rdmcandie
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#51 Dec 12 2012 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, and whoa. I never wanted RDM to get Cure V. That's pretty much paramount to me saying, "Pink Maging is where the job's at, go for it, SE!" The only aspect where I wanted to see RDM's cures improved was relative to the Offensive/Defensive stance fueled by Enspell use, wherein striking during the Defensive stance would buffs our buffs and cures for one cast until you got some more whacks in.

Meanwhile, this whole, "I came up with the Healing Magic adjustment!" line is getting old. Had I the motivation, I'm pretty sure I could dig up posts circa early-ToAU with angry WHMs wanting their skill to affect cures so they'd better fit into merit parties. But hey, maybe my memory is fuzzy after 6 years. You totally thought of something nobody nowhere else ever thought of AND it got translated to Japanese. Genius.

Nonetheless, you still function under this delusion that CORs are running around /RDM just to Haste people or giving up rolls for Refresh so they can play a gimpy healer that'd never land a non-Shot buff reliably. Sure, BRDs are a bit more supporty, but you don't really see offensive BRD/NINs for similar reasons to why RDM melee gets scoffed at. If anything, it's so they aren't bored. Still, I can pretty much recall any party I've been in with a BRD on RDM, WHM, or SCH involved me handling hastes while they did their songs, pulled, wiped their butt, or whatever. If they ever tossed a cure, it was usually to themselves or someone who went critical. I know when I was on BLM/RDM, it wasn't to play haste **** for a party, either. I buffed myself, sure, but that's it. I, and I imagine many other BLMs, were on that job to just blow **** up. Getting our abilities by subbing RDM may be one thing, but such completely changing their jobs is another.

You still haven't tackled the underlying issue with your skill fetish, though. Just how much would RDM's enfeebling skill make a difference? Because Arts and all the gear those other jobs bring to the table isn't leaving them flapping in the wind, either. 1% per point? 1% per 5 points? 5% per 10 points? C'mon, marvel us with this genius scheme, because SE will surely take it. Or, RDM gets Slow III at 55-60%, no fancy mechanic tinkering done, everyone else is stuck at 29% Slow I. End result, RDM still the superior slower by a significant margin. Now let's just let it land on mobs and affect the TP-move-as-attacks ones. Not exactly as **** pile or broken as you wanna exaggerate there. Certainly easier for the poor intern they have locked in their basement to do, too.

But really, SE just needs to stop saying no, quit being an ostrich about the job, and do positive things for both camps. Cynical as I can be, I at least believe that can be done.
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