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#1 Aug 27 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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Well, for some stupid reason, talking about your job's update in a job update thread is "out of topic" and I had already created this post while it was being locked, I'm "transferring" the topic to here. Take it or leave it.

Zafire wrote:
If you don't use convert every time you could be, you're wasting MP. It's a simple concept and there really is no arguing it. You can argue you're "saving it just in case", but it's still wasting MP.

If your play style favors wasting MP, then that's up to you. Some people prefer to play more cautiously and that's okay. Just wont be me.


The only way NOT to waste mp with convert is to gauge your mp so it will deplete around the same time your timer is up. If you're having to spam magic within the last few seconds, then you're not doing that, hence you are also wasting MP.

Whether or not you use convert is and should always be situational. If you're in a party where people have to WAIT on your MP often before next pull or you're having to rest/stand cure/rest/stand cure/rest, because you're out of MP and convert, then you should SAVE your convert for those times. That will benefit you more than just using it in the time when you don't need it. On the other hand, if you're not in similar situations where MP is a problem, then you should ride it every 10 mins.

To ALWAYS save it or ride it just because is wrong.

Fynlar wrote:
Anyone who has ever played this game and used a cell phone knows that MP and a cell phone battery are not used the same way and not expended the same way. It really doesn't need any further explanation, and the other responses you've gotten in this thread verify that.


Except you or anyone else has yet explained the fundamental difference between the two. All you have said is that they're different simply to make a counter but with no substance at all.

Fynlar wrote:
But Chainspell makes you use up your MP very fast, and since rapidly discharging your cell phone battery is silly and inefficient, that must mean that Chainspell is silly and inefficient too because they're obviously the same thing! Right?



This evident that you're completely lost.

I didn't say rapidly using mp or a cell phone battery was bad, I said rapidly using it just for the sake of doing it is bad. I stated that a couple of times now. I multitask on my cell phone and have many things up at once while viewing youtube, but I do it because that's what I want to do. I don't go to sleep with my phone off the charger streaming youtube with other apps up just so I can use my spare battery in the morning. RDMs standing around doing absolutely nothing to recover mp, just to spam magic at the last second to justify the usage of convert is like streaming youtube on your phone off the charger while you sleep.

The purpose of chainspell is to cast magic quickly. Most people use it as such. When people start using chainspell in order to cast a barspell, then you'll have a point. That would be wasting chainspell.

Once again, there's nothing wrong with the concept, it's the application of it that I'm arguing. If you use chainspell to cast a barspell then you're wasting chainspell, plain and simple. You're doing it wrong. There's nothing wrong with using chainspell, but that's not an efficient way of using it.

Fynlar wrote:
Not only does it not really make a difference either way, I've already said why people may choose to use their MP in such a way.


The simple fact that you don't see a differentiate speaks volumes for your confusion.

Fynlar wrote:
You still haven't bothered to adequately explain WHY this is wrong; we're just supposed to take your word for it or something?


I have, you just refuse to accept it. I'll try another way. That is the most inefficient way of using convert. The "right" way of using convert is gauging your mp to run out when your timer is up. Do you or do you not agree with that statement? If you do, then spamming mp at the last second is wrong, because you weren't gauging your mp. That mp that you spent on those blizzards could have been regained at least one time over.

In other words, if you would have cast that blizzard spell earlier, then you would have regained that mp back and would have been able to cast it again. Because you waited to the last minute, you were only able to cast it once or twice before your MP ran out.

Not using convert is also a form of "wasting mp", except at least in this way, you still have convert up and you still cast at least the SAME amount of spells as the guy who spammed spells prior to converting.

Fynlar wrote:
In Abyssea I don't need any more MP conservation, which is really the only reason to use /SCH over /RDM. OK, another minor reason is Sublimation to prevent sleep on a limited basis, but there are other ways of doing that


1. Then why are you using convert then? Saving MP yields the same result as converting, extra mp.

2. Then you obviously fail as a mage, LA and DA is much more than MP conservation. Not to mention strategems...

3. If you don't need "refresh" or any reason to have/save more mp, then there is absolutely no reason to sub RDM over SCH... none. The bottom line is you're just too lazy to either level SCH or play it subbed properly.

Fynlar wrote:
Also, /SCH only gives you Sleep/Dispel with Addendum: Black, which means they might as well not even exist to me. It's way too cumbersome to use, especially given the fact that after you dispel something it's usually not long before you have to dispel it again. And if you just keep Addendum: Black on for multiple Dispels, kiss goodbye to that added MP efficiency that /SCH is supposed to give you


Oh, so I was right, you're lazy. Unless the only thing that you're doing is dispelling, the amount of mp saved and enhancements received during LA will heavily outweight the few spells that you've cast in DA. Besides, that's what Sublmiation is for. Since you don't refresh yourself, you wont be missing that MP.

You're simply making excuses for being lazy.

Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.

Fynlar wrote:
Believe me, I don't need a lecture on sub choice from you. I know what's best for my situations :)


From the looks of it, you do.

You say that you don't need refresh because of the atmas in Abyssea and only need RDM for convert and dispel. Then you turn around and say that you don't need mp conservation from SCH, yet somehow still need convert? I tell you that you can dispel from sch and your counter is "wasting mp", but you don't ever refresh yourself...

You have no logic. You can't not refresh yourself and then be concerned about mp.
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#2 Aug 28 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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..maybe because the topic was job adjustments in the upcoming update, and the last few pages were nothing but walls o'text arguing over Convert strategy?

But while I'm here:

Quote:
Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.


Have you even played the game lately? 90% of /SCH's benefits are MP conversation, and given that mages can get up to 7/tick refresh from gear alone, the utility offered by /RDM (long list of obvious things), /WHM (native status cures, Cure4), and /BLM (Sleep2, Sleepga, Stun, Warp2) become much more appealing than /SCH... heavy nuking scenarios are about the only time I opt for /SCH on BLM and RDM these days (assuming I don't need /NIN).

As for WHM... between 7/tick Refresh from gear, 900HP/75seconds Regen4, and +2 pants, MP conservation is the last thing I'm looking for in my subjob. I find that the much improved crowd control of /BLM due to Sleep2/Sleepga and being able to Stun incoming nukes/TP moves save me much more MP than /RDM or /SCH in the long run.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 6:24am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#3Almalieque, Posted: Aug 28 2011 at 5:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Read above. I'm not sure why you're pigeon holing SCH to mp conservation, but that's only one aspect of it.
#4 Aug 28 2011 at 6:03 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Except you or anyone else has yet explained the fundamental difference between the two. All you have said is that they're different simply to make a counter but with no substance at all.


Yes, I have. They're fundamentally different because MP and a cell phone battery are not used the same way. They are not comparable concepts.

Quote:
I didn't say rapidly using mp or a cell phone battery was bad, I said rapidly using it just for the sake of doing it is bad.


So spamming Cure 4 on yourself when you're at full HP just to use up your MP before a Convert is stupid? Well, duh, we all could have told you that. I'm not sure why you felt that needed to be pointed out.

Thankfully, most people playing this game are not THAT retarded. They're throwing more backup Cures to give the WHM a break, or throwing out more nukes for extra damage, etc.


Quote:
The simple fact that you don't see a differentiate speaks volumes for your confusion.


And you're still not saying why it's such a bad thing to hang onto a stock of MP until Convert is actually ready :)

If regular usage of Convert provides you with up to 3000 MP to use over the course of ten minutes, it really doesn't make a lick of difference whether you use 300 MP every minute, or 250 MP during the first 8 minutes and burn 1000 MP on the last 2 minutes. Either way, you're still making full use of the MP available to you.


Quote:
1. Then why are you using convert then? Saving MP yields the same result as converting, extra mp.


Because any other way of "saving MP" requires either A) significantly more time and effort to generate the same amount of MP (example: in Abyssea, even 10 casted Refreshes on myself would not bestow me the same amount of MP that I get from a single Convert, not to mention the fact that only 4 Refreshes would fit into the duration of a Convert cooldown, or that casting just 4 Refreshes eats up much more of my action time than Convert + Cure does), or B) throwing fewer Cures, letting people die, and generally being a less effective healer.


Quote:
2. Then you obviously fail as a mage, LA and DA is much more than MP conservation. Not to mention strategems...


Light Arts is pretty much only MP conservation to me. Casting speed boost is also provided by /RDM (and it is always functional, without having to worry about casting magic in the appropriate Arts). Penury faces the same issue as Convert (needing multiple uses just to get the same amount of MP as I can get from a single Convert), Celerity would be useful if I ever actually had to cast multiple Raises anymore in Abyssea (I usually do not need to cast ANY Raises anymore in Abyssea, let alone multiple Raises at once), Accession isn't very useful either because many WHM spells are already AoE. In many cases where AoE status heals would be useful, I can employ Esuna.

Dark Arts offers one useful thing in Accession + Sleep, but that still requires an activation of Addendum: Black, meaning I'd need both stratagems ready in order to use it. If I absolutely needed a Sleepga, I'd rather just sub /BLM so that I can fire Sleepga right away, rather than having to throw three JAs just to use it once.


Quote:
3. If you don't need "refresh" or any reason to have/save more mp, then there is absolutely no reason to sub RDM over SCH... none. The bottom line is you're just too lazy to either level SCH or play it subbed properly.


Yes, there is. Already mentioned it in other thread, too. I prefer having my Sleep/Dispel immediately ready when I need them rather than require JA swapping to be used. And Convert is still the simplest, easiest way to generate a large chunk of MP back during fights in Abyssea where atmas alone won't sustain you.

I have /SCH leveled, I have used it before, I know its capabilities. You can stop pretending that you know the only proper way to play the game, now.


Quote:
Oh, so I was right, you're lazy. Unless the only thing that you're doing is dispelling, the amount of mp saved and enhancements received during LA will heavily outweight the few spells that you've cast in DA. Besides, that's what Sublmiation is for. Since you don't refresh yourself, you wont be missing that MP.


Again, in Abyssea MP efficiency is hardly anywhere on my list of concerns. Most fights in Abyssea don't even require me to use Convert, and for the ones that do, it's more than sufficient.


Quote:
You say that you don't need refresh because of the atmas in Abyssea and only need RDM for convert and dispel. Then you turn around and say that you don't need mp conservation from SCH, yet somehow still need convert? I tell you that you can dispel from sch and your counter is "wasting mp", but you don't ever refresh yourself...


I don't need /SCH MP conservation tricks because atmas+Convert are enough. :)

And again, needing Addendum: Black to Sleep/Dispel means it might as well not even exist to me.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 8:05am by Fynlar
#5Almalieque, Posted: Aug 28 2011 at 7:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You eliminated an entire laundry list of effects and focused on MP conservation. That's fine if you choose to do so, but don't act like any other normal person isn't going to see the benefits.
#6 Aug 28 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hey Alma no one gives a ****. If you run out of MP you use convert, is that really hard to understand, and does it really warrant you arguing for 3 pages in =10, then starting a new thread about it. It is a tool, that is situational sometimes you live or die by it, other times you never need to touch it.

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#7Almalieque, Posted: Aug 28 2011 at 8:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) WTFRU arguing with me? We're saying the same thing. I'm not the one opposing your claim. Stop being a tool
#8 Aug 28 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Default
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You're doing it again. You're simply saying it's different because it's not the same without any actual explanation.


That's because no further explanation is needed. Anyone who has actually played the game knows that your "analogy" doesn't jive (because, again, MP pools and cell phone batteries are not used in the same way), and anyone who hasn't played this game doesn't give a ****.


Quote:
if you weren't already casting back up cures or nukes for extra damage, then you were casting it just for the sake of casting to justify using convert.


And again, why is that such a big problem?


Quote:
Because that's not how it works and this is why your logic is wrong. If you actually use the MP early on and REGAIN it throughout the 10 minutes, you will use MORE MP throughout that time span. Standing there waiting for your haste cycle does not produce more mp. Resting while waiting for your haste cycle to end, does. Doing the latter allows you to cast MORE spells before convert is up.


Are you trying to say that sitting at 100% MP means that you're losing potential MP because it stops refresh from working? If so, holy ****, call the presses. You're on to something BIG here.

By the way, if you ever actually have time to rest mid-fight in Abyssea as a WHM, whatever you're fighting is a joke and you likely don't need Convert in the first place.


Quote:
So then MP IS AN ISSUE. You just chose a way that you felt was most convenient. MP is MP is MP is MP. You can't claim that refresh, sublimation, conserve mp, etc. aren't necessary because of the MP atmas and then turn around say that convert is the reason to sub RDM. That makes no sense.


Convert is *a* reason to sub /RDM. Easily accessed Sleeps and Dispels are another.

And yes, I can use Convert as a reason. I've already explained why, too. It gets me the largest amount of MP recovered out of everything you just mentioned with the least amount of effort.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm healing on WHM, I want to be on call for throwing Cure 5/6 at a moment's notice, not ******** around and letting people die because I was casting a measly 3/tic Refresh that isn't even going to fuel a single Cure 5 by itself.

Quote:
You are simply biased towards convert. That's fine, but you can't try to discredit other forms of MP gain because it "isn't necessary". It's necessary, you just have your favorite form of MP gain.

I started to do the math, but if you ride the sublimation timer, I'm sure there is a trade off between the two.


"Riding" Sublimation requires both attention and making sure your HP doesn't get low enough to the point where it stops working. Personally, I use Medicine Ring in Abyssea since I heal with AF3+2 body, so this isn't always a sure/safe thing for me.

Convert is just much simpler than having to regularly watch your Sublimation+stratagems and repeatedly fire Penury and Sublimation as needed. Convert is just fired once when it's needed. There is no need to continuously watch/use it in order to achieve a similar level of MP restored as to what Convert can give you in one fell swoop.

Quote:
LA:

1. raises skill caps for Enfeebling, Enhancing, Divine and Healing.
2. reduces MP cost
3. reduces recast time.
4. reduces casting time.
5. Access to strategems.


1. All of which are largely useless to a Cure5/6/Haste/Auspice spammer. The only enfeeble I'm regularly using on WHM is Dia. Generally, either the mob is a joke and doesn't need the enfeeble; or the mob is immune, close to it, or largely unaffected by it anyway.
2. And Convert provides more MP. More than one way to skin a cat.
3. So does /RDM
4. So does /RDM
5. Again, mostly useless to WHM, already explained why.


Quote:
You eliminated an entire laundry list of effects and focused on MP conservation. That's fine if you choose to do so, but don't act like any other normal person isn't going to see the benefits.


Unfortunately, that's mainly what /SCH is there for with regard to WHM; MP conservation. It has /BLM and /SMN soundly beat in that department. As far as sheer utility goes though, /SCH doesn't flat out win for WHM. It might for RDM main, but not WHM. There are things you are giving up on WHM by using /SCH; easily accessed Sleeps and Dispels being a huge deciding factor in my book.


Quote:
Penury- Multiple uses that I don't have to wait 10 mins for


5 uses per 10 minutes, and 5 uses combined still won't give you as much MP as Convert does. Not to mention the fact that doing this means no stratagems for anything else, so that means you're locked out of that Sleep/Dispel that you're so insistent that /SCH has for those 10 minutes if you're blowing all 5 charges on Penury.


Quote:
Celerity- I cast multiple raises. Even then, macroed celerity r1/r2 once, especially on a nin tank, is very much worth it.


I honestly can't remember the last time I've needed to cast a Raise in Abyssea, let alone any situation where I've needed to use several at once in a short span of time. That's largely due to the fact that I tend not to let people die to begin with, but even when they do, they're often packing a certain atma that lets them get up on their own anyway.


Quote:
Accession- Are you on crack? AoE Stoneskin?


Stoneskin is laughably weak by Abyssea standards. Not to mention that I'd usually only be casting this for a single melee (yeah, I'm one of those guys who regularly tears things up in Abyssea MNK+WHM style), and I can give him a comparable Stoneskin by just casting Cure on him, which casts much faster and actually restores some HP simultaneously.


Quote:
there you go again, putting in other jobs. If you're /blm, yes, you have sleepga, but you don't have the benefit of being /whm. You're acting like you can switch from /whm and /blm on a limb.


Yeah, it's totally unheard of to go inside Abyssea with an actual plan of what you're going to fight and prepare appropriately for it beforehand.


Quote:
If only there was a way to be able to switch from black magic focus to a white magic focus and vice versa... hmmmm... wow, what's this? SCH?n gasp.


Again, anything that requires Addendum swapping doesn't exist in my book. It's simply too cumbersome to use for something that I could just have available right away without the JA juggling.


Quote:
If you want to argue the overall best sub, you have to assume that you have no other support in a static party in any given scenario. When you do that, /sch trumps all other subs.


Guess what? I usually don't have any other support in Abyssea. Which also means I usually have no other person to throw things like dispels and dark-based sleeps for me. ****, when I'm playing MNK+WHM, I'm usually dual boxing those two characters, so it's literally just me.

/SCH doesn't "trump" all other subs for me because it doesn't offer anything useful to me other than MP conservation, which /RDM already provides enough of in addition to other things that I find useful.


And you can stop pretending that these scenarios exist. BLM and WHM are in way more demand than RDM. Matter of fact, RDM isn't in demand at all, at least in Anyssea.

What scenarios? You talking about WHM+single melee scenarios? Because I see LOADS of people doing just that in Abyssea, many of which I suspect are dual boxing like I am. It's *extremely* common.


So, all you have is "simplicity", which translates into you being lazy, not because of pure simplicity, but because you're willing to forfeit so many advantages for it.

Yeah, I'm totally going to be losing sleep tonight over all those /SCH JAs that I have to use multiple times over just to equal one Convert of MP restored. I'm sooooo lazy for taking the easier, yet still more than sufficient option.


Unless you're a BLM, you will never be primary sleep. Unless you're a brd, you'll never be primary dispel, unless it's a proc, which time is irrelevant.

I'm usually the ONLY sleeper, so yeah. When I need to sleep stuff, I usually need to do it *right now*. I'd rather not have my dark-based sleeps locked behind some JAs, thanks.
#9 Aug 28 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Hey Alma no one gives a sh*t. If you run out of MP you use convert, is that really hard to understand, and does it really warrant you arguing for 3 pages in =10, then starting a new thread about it. It is a tool, that is situational sometimes you live or die by it, other times you never need to touch it.



WTFRU arguing with me? We're saying the same thing. I'm not the one opposing your claim. Stop being a tool



because whenever you post you make long winded analogies that are stupid, you are arguing with several people about how to properly use convert, when the only rule to convert is, if you are out of MP, and it is off recast you use it. Thats it, you don't 4 pages of sh*tty *** analogies, you don't need to tell people who spam MP they are wrong. Its stupid, Convert is a tool, unlike provoke you don't need to use it every time it is off CD, but there are times when you do live vert to vert.

As to why I posted. This convo was carried over from =10, where you typed out your usual drivel and pathetic analogies. Arguing with anyone and everyone who disagreed with your notion of convert etiquette. Not only did you destroy a perfectly good thread in =10, you also got said thread locked because you wouldn't shut up your ******** over how to use convert.

Want to know how to use convert proper,

/ja "Convert" <me>
/wait 3
/ma "Cure IV" <me>

There ya go. You are welcome.


Edited, Aug 28th 2011 11:14am by rdmcandie
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#10 Aug 28 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
That's because no further explanation is needed. Anyone who has actually played the game knows that your "analogy" doesn't jive (because, again, MP pools and cell phone batteries are not used in the same way), and anyone who hasn't played this game doesn't give a sh*t.


So you admit that you never actually explained how it was wrong. That's cool, just don't pretend that you somehow countered my analogy when all you said was "nah-uh".

Fynlar wrote:
And again, why is that such a big problem?


Let me re ask this question that you conveniently left out. The "right" way of using convert is gauging your mp to run out when your timer is up. Do you or do you not agree with that statement?

Fynlar wrote:
Are you trying to say that sitting at 100% MP means that you're losing potential MP because it stops refresh from working? If so, holy sh*t, call the presses. You're on to something BIG here.


? - I said exactly what you quoted.

Fynlar wrote:
By the way, if you ever actually have time to rest mid-fight in Abyssea as a WHM, whatever you're fighting is a joke and you likely don't need Convert in the first place.



So, you agree that Convert isn't always necessary?

Fynlar wrote:
Convert is *a* reason to sub /RDM. Easily accessed Sleeps and Dispels are another.

And yes, I can use Convert as a reason. I've already explained why, too. It gets me the largest amount of MP recovered out of everything you just mentioned with the least amount of effort.



I'm not denying that it's a reason to sub RDM. I'm countering your claim that every other gain mp methods aren't necessary because MP isn't a problem while at the same time subbing RDM for mp gain. Once again, you can sleep and dispel with /sch. Your "easily" accessed is irrelevant as you will never be primary for those things unless you're BLM (which as /sch gives you dispel, under DA 100% of the time)

*note* I realize later that you are duoing, I'll address that down in the post

Fynlar wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm healing on WHM, I want to be on call for throwing Cure 5/6 at a moment's notice, not ******** around and letting people die because I was casting a measly 3/tic Refresh that isn't even going to fuel a single Cure 5 by itself.


Wait, so are you arguing that refresh casting time is the difference between life and death now? WTF are you fighting? If that's the case, then refresh is the least of your worries. That's utter garbage.

Fynlar wrote:
"Riding" Sublimation requires both attention and making sure your HP doesn't get low enough to the point where it stops working. Personally, I use Medicine Ring in Abyssea since I heal with AF3+2 body, so this isn't always a sure/safe thing for me.

Convert is just much simpler than having to regularly watch your Sublimation+stratagems and repeatedly fire Penury and Sublimation as needed. Convert is just fired once when it's needed. There is no need to continuously watch/use it in order to achieve a similar level of MP restored as to what Convert can give you in one fell swoop.


So, like I said, you're just being lazy. That's cool, but stop acting like it isn't efficient, you're just being lazy.

Fynlar wrote:
1. All of which are largely useless to a Cure5/6/Haste/Auspice spammer. The only enfeeble I'm regularly using on WHM is Dia. Generally, either the mob is a joke and doesn't need the enfeeble; or the mob is immune, close to it, or largely unaffected by it anyway.
2. And Convert provides more MP. More than one way to skin a cat.
3. So does /RDM
4. So does /RDM
5. Again, mostly useless to WHM, already explained why.


1. False. there's a big difference between cure V and cure VI, both in hp cured and mp usage. I would much rather cast a stronger cure V than ever casting cure VI.

2. So, how is this about MP consumption then?

3. So, how is this about MP consumption then?

4. You actually didn't. Besides, you're jumping jobs again to create favorable scenarios for your argument. It's not mostly useless to RDM or BLM. 2 > 1.

Fynlar wrote:
Unfortunately, that's mainly what /SCH is there for with regard to WHM; MP conservation. It has /BLM and /SMN soundly beat in that department. As far as sheer utility goes though, /SCH doesn't flat out win for WHM. It might for RDM main, but not WHM. There are things you are giving up on WHM by using /SCH; easily accessed Sleeps and Dispels being a huge deciding factor in my book.


Read #4 up above again. You shouldn't be the one sleeping and dispelling as a WHM. You're better off sleeping with Repose then you are with sleep as a WHM. Your deciding factor is backwards.

Why is sleeping and dispelling a huge factor for you being a WHM? Why not just be a RDM or BLM?

You're just being lazy. You don't want to switch arts.

*note* once again, I later realized that you're dual, but the question still stands in a general sense.

Fynlar wrote:
5 uses per 10 minutes, and 5 uses combined still won't give you as much MP as Convert does. Not to mention the fact that doing this means no stratagems for anything else, so that means you're locked out of that Sleep/Dispel that you're so insistent that /SCH has for those 10 minutes if you're blowing all 5 charges on Penury


What? I wouldn't use Penury to compete with Convert, that's what Sublimation is for. You already mentioned that you're too lazy to operate sublimation. I wouldn't ride the Penury timer, it's the fact that if I need it, I can use it multiple times in a smaller time limit.

Fynlar wrote:
I honestly can't remember the last time I've needed to cast a Raise in Abyssea, let alone any situation where I've needed to use several at once in a short span of time. That's largely due to the fact that I tend not to let people die to begin with, but even when they do, they're often packing a certain atma that lets them get up on their own anyway.


You must be really on it. Even when players take damage larger than their hp pool, you can prevent them from dying. You're one awesome healer.

Fynlar wrote:
Stoneskin is laughably weak by Abyssea standards. Not to mention that I'd usually only be casting this for a single melee (yeah, I'm one of those guys who regularly tears things up in Abyssea MNK+WHM style), and I can give him a comparable Stoneskin by just casting Cure on him, which casts much faster and actually restores some HP simultaneously.


Comparable? How so, having the same name? You can't laugh at stoneskin, calling it weak and then brag about the cure's stoneskin.. that's absurd.

Fynlar wrote:
Again, anything that requires Addendum swapping doesn't exist in my book. It's simply too cumbersome to use for something that I could just have available right away without the JA juggling.


Lazy.. got it. Which was my point. It's not the sub, you're just too lazy to play it right.

Guess what? I usually don't have any other support in Abyssea. Which also means I usually have no other person to throw things like dispels and dark-based sleeps for me. ****, when I'm playing MNK+WHM, I'm usually dual boxing those two characters, so it's literally just me.

That's cool and I'm not denying it, just don't create all of these optimal scenarios for your argument. If you're a WHM dual boxing or duo with another person, i.e. MNK, /BLM is a favorable sub. In an alliance, it isn't, because you will have other jobs.

In your typical 4-6 person party, you're also better off as /sch if you don't have a certain job in the party.

/SCH doesn't "trump" all other subs for me because it doesn't offer anything useful to me other than MP conservation, which /RDM already provides enough of in addition to other things that I find useful.

It does, you're just too lazy to take advantage of it. Now, granted, if you're doing WHM/xxx as a 2 person dual, then /sch may not be the best sub for that situation. I have stated that /sch doesn't win in every scenario, but overall. If you were to look at the various different scenarios that ANY mage can be in, /sch wins.

What scenarios? You talking about WHM+single melee scenarios? Because I see LOADS of people doing just that in Abyssea, many of which I suspect are dual boxing like I am. It's *extremely* common.

No, what I mean, you aren't staying in one scenario. In one scenario, you're a WHM. In another scenario, you won't need x,y or z because there's a BLM there. You are choosing specific scenarios where /sch wouldn't be idealistic as opposed to the overall picture.

Yeah, I'm totally going to be losing sleep tonight over all those /SCH JAs that I have to use multiple times over just to equal one Convert of MP restored. I'm sooooo lazy for taking the easier, yet still more than sufficient option.

Except it's only "more efficient" in the terms of mp conservation. If you want to reduce an entire sun to that, that's fine.

I'm usually the ONLY sleeper, so yeah. When I need to sleep stuff, I usually need to do it *right now*. I'd rather not have my dark-based sleeps locked behind some JAs, thanks.

As I've been arguing all along, /sch isn't the best in EVERY scenario. Just because it isn't the optimal in YOUR scenario, doesn't discredit it from being overall the best mage sub. Besides, if you can keep people from dying from moves over 50% of their max hp, surely you can avoid link/aggro.

As a duo, you're probably better off going as RDM if you're so concerned about crowd control. I duo stuff as RDM + BRD and we do just fine.
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#12 Aug 28 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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The Anti-Alma bandwagon. LOL please, you ever consider it is because you are an absolute moron. You get told that in =2, =10, the asylum, you either have a very large fan club, or chances are the frequent posters that call you a moron, are likely right. Id wager the latter is more accurate.

As for arguing with Fynlar, he is almost on the same level of moron, once in a while he gets something right (like in this case) but most of his posts are just like yours.

As for /SCH, just like convert sh*t is situational, you are both retarded.
lolma wrote:


Read #4 up above again. You shouldn't be the one sleeping and dispelling as a WHM. You're better off sleeping with Repose then you are with sleep as a WHM. Your deciding factor is backwards.

Why is sleeping and dispelling a huge factor for you being a WHM? Why not just be a RDM or BLM?


What difference does it make? WHM already has a pretty solid enfeebling skill, sleep and dispel are both very accurate spells to begin with. a WHM likely will have capped MACC with Pluto's, **** I can land both Sleep and Dispel with a sword.


Having access to 2 sleep elements is great, it means you are covered against most mobs unless they are outright immune, having dispel means you can get rid of that sh*tty buff the mob has given himself, like Blaze Spikes which will murder a MNK and cause the WHM to spend much more MP.


Then comes the point where WHM wins, and that is through sheer support power, WHM + MNK can duo the near entirety of abyssea, have full Blunt Procs, almost full light procs, /SCH a majority of the dark procs. So you go on lights day at blunt time and farm away.

A BLM or RDM can not do this, so the real question is...why bother being a RDM or BLM.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 12:27pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 12:29pm by rdmcandie
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#13 Aug 28 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Your posts are 10% argument and 90% acting incredulous about how stupid people are for disagreeing with you. Can we get a follow-up lock, Vlor?
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#14 Aug 28 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
So you admit that you never actually explained how it was wrong. That's cool, just don't pretend that you somehow countered my analogy when all you said was "nah-uh".


I've already told you why it was wrong, several times. I'm going to try one more time. It's because MP pools and cell phone batteries are not used the same way. You don't rapidly deplete a cell phone battery just so you can slap in a new one every 10 minutes. With MP and Convert, you can do this and it's justified. Why? Because it's not the same thing.

You are essentially asking why the apple you have can't also be considered an orange. It's an incredulous argument, and it's one that I'm really hoping you let die after this, because I'm not going to be giving it any more attention.


Quote:
So, you agree that Convert isn't always necessary?


As strictly a healer (WHM)? Obviously not.


Quote:
I'm not denying that it's a reason to sub RDM. I'm countering your claim that every other gain mp methods aren't necessary because MP isn't a problem while at the same time subbing RDM for mp gain.


I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that Convert by itself is a powerful enough ability to make bothering with a 3/tic Refresh in Abyssea generally worthwhile. I'm not losing any sleep over it, though.


Quote:
Once again, you can sleep and dispel with /sch. Your "easily" accessed is irrelevant as you will never be primary for those things unless you're BLM (which as /sch gives you dispel, under DA 100% of the time)


Once again, Sleep and Dispel on /SCH might as well not even exist because Addendum: Black make them too cumbersome to use.

Your "primary" or whatever arguments are useless to me. It doesn't matter to me what job is "best" at doing something; I have to work with what I have, and often in Abyssea I am the only mage there in my "group" and I have to take care of it as a WHM because other healer jobs are simply not sufficient.


Quote:
Wait, so are you arguing that refresh casting time is the difference between life and death now? WTF are you fighting? If that's the case, then refresh is the least of your worries. That's utter garbage.


You're absolutely right; Refresh is right there among the least of my worries. That's why I'm usually not casting it and staying at the ready with Cures.

Maybe you haven't ever fought anything worthwhile in Abyssea, but there's some things out there that can do ridiculous amounts of damage in an instant. To share just one (and not even the best) example, there's Alfard. This thing attacks fast, hits hard, and will occasionally get in an attack + Serpentine Tail combo that can dish out upward to 3-4k damage on a target within the span of a couple seconds. I need to be throwing Cures right away in those scenarios, not lollygagging around with a 3/tic Refresh and possibly subjecting the tank to another hit before he gets a Cure.

Every little thing I cast that isn't a Cure and takes longer than a Cure (such as Regen, another thing I do not use in Abyssea) is a risk, and I prefer to minimize them.


Quote:
So, like I said, you're just being lazy. That's cool, but stop acting like it isn't efficient, you're just being lazy.


Again, MP efficiency isn't as important for a healer in Abyssea. You (should) often have more MP than you need.

But really, using a single JA to get the same amount of MP as multiple uses of /SCH JAs does sound like a form of efficiency to me, if you want to get technical.



Quote:
1. False. there's a big difference between cure V and cure VI, both in hp cured and mp usage. I would much rather cast a stronger cure V than ever casting cure VI.


I fail to see what that has to do with anything. By the way, if you're actually an experienced enough WHM like I am, you'd already have Healing skill capped anyway and Light Arts wouldn't raise it any more anyway. Lol @ thinking the skill actually means a sh*t, though.

And if you're never having to use Cure 6, whatever you're fighting in Abyssea is a joke anyways.


Quote:
2. So, how is this about MP consumption then?


Idk; you tell me? You're the one trying to shove a subjob that's pretty much purely about MP conservation in my face.


Quote:
4. You actually didn't. Besides, you're jumping jobs again to create favorable scenarios for your argument. It's not mostly useless to RDM or BLM. 2 > 1.


What? I thought we've been talking about WHM this whole time. Unless you've found some way to sub /RDM on your RDM and you were actually talking about RDM this whole time.


Quote:
Read #4 up above again. You shouldn't be the one sleeping and dispelling as a WHM. You're better off sleeping with Repose then you are with sleep as a WHM. Your deciding factor is backwards.


It doesn't matter what I "should" be doing on WHM. The fact is oftentimes I am the only person there to do it.

Also, Repose doesn't work well on everything, duh. It's also just a single single-target spell, meaning it's often insufficient for sleeping needs. It also doesn't allow sleep stacking. There are flaws to having just Repose alone.


Quote:
Why is sleeping and dispelling a huge factor for you being a WHM? Why not just be a RDM or BLM?


Because in Abyssea, any healer that isn't a WHM is often simply insufficient.


Quote:
What? I wouldn't use Penury to compete with Convert, that's what Sublimation is for. You already mentioned that you're too lazy to operate sublimation. I wouldn't ride the Penury timer, it's the fact that if I need it, I can use it multiple times in a smaller time limit.


Oh, if it's just Sublimation alone, it's no contest whatsoever; Convert will win.

Sublimation will only generate 600 MP (3/tic) in 10 minutes, and that's assuming you have it active the entire time (which you can't, due to the way Sublimation works).

If even Convert isn't enough as a WHM, it most likely means you're an undergeared WHM or lacking the correct atmas.


Quote:
Comparable? How so, having the same name? You can't laugh at stoneskin, calling it weak and then brag about the cure's stoneskin.. that's absurd.


Yeah, I can. Stoneskin takes an eternity to cast, and that's ALL it does. Cure casts faster, and does more. Really not a hard concept to understand.


Lazy.. got it. Which was my point. It's not the sub, you're just too lazy to play it right.

I'm not seeing how clicking a bunch of additional JAs in order to use something that I could get right at my fingertips without having to do that is the opposite of laziness. Maybe additional unnecessary work in a video game gives you a raging *****, but believe me, I've outgrown that.


That's cool and I'm not denying it, just don't create all of these optimal scenarios for your argument. If you're a WHM dual boxing or duo with another person, i.e. MNK, /BLM is a favorable sub. In an alliance, it isn't, because you will have other jobs.

Alliances in Abyssea are yesteryear and pretty much reserved just for lolxp groups now. I'm not sure of any other reason why anyone would take alliances to Abyssea unless they happened to just be extra KI holders. To me, alliances are the exception and lowman is the norm.


As a duo, you're probably better off going as RDM if you're so concerned about crowd control. I duo stuff as RDM + BRD and we do just fine.

You're also duoing way slower than me, and you're not duoing anything that isn't already a joke. So somehow, I'm rather OK with this.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 6:54pm by Fynlar
#15 Aug 28 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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RDD wrote:
The Anti-Alma bandwagon. LOL please, you ever consider it is because you are an absolute moron. You get told that in =2, =10, the asylum, you either have a very large fan club, or chances are the frequent posters that call you a moron, are likely right. Id wager the latter is more accurate.

As for arguing with Fynlar, he is almost on the same level of moron, once in a while he gets something right (like in this case) but most of his posts are just like yours.


Yet you're arguing against me with something you agree with. That doesn't make sense. Either you just attacked me because you thought it was the right thing to do or you're too stupid to realize that we're making the same argument. You choose.

RDD wrote:
As for /SCH, just like convert sh*t is situational, you are both retarded.


That's exactly what I said.....so how does that make me retarded and not you?

RDD wrote:
What difference does it make? WHM already has a pretty solid enfeebling skill, sleep and dispel are both very accurate spells to begin with. a WHM likely will have capped MACC with Pluto's, **** I can land both Sleep and Dispel with a sword.


If that's the case, then why care so much about sleep?

RDD wrote:
Having access to 2 sleep elements is great, it means you are covered against most mobs unless they are outright immune, having dispel means you can get rid of that sh*tty buff the mob has given himself, like Blaze Spikes which will murder a MNK and cause the WHM to spend much more MP.


All of which you get as /sch, plus the ability to AoE sleep, asprir, drain, etc.

RDD wrote:
A BLM or RDM can not do this, so the real question is...why bother being a RDM or BLM.


If your concern is crowd control, then you're better off as a RDM or BLM. That was his argument for subbing RDM, crowd control. If you have no problem with crowd control, then you go as WHM. If for whatever reason, you're having problems with links, then you should go as RDM.

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#16 Aug 28 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If your concern is crowd control, then you're better off as a RDM or BLM. That was his argument for subbing RDM, crowd control. If you have no problem with crowd control, then you go as WHM. If for whatever reason, you're having problems with links, then you should go as RDM.


SCH/RDM says **** you.
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#17 Aug 28 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
I've already told you why it was wrong, several times. I'm going to try one more time. It's because MP pools and cell phone batteries are not used the same way. You don't rapidly deplete a cell phone battery just so you can slap in a new one every 10 minutes. With MP and Convert, you can do this and it's justified. Why? Because it's not the same thing.


THAT'S THE WHOLE FREAKIN POINT. People don't rapidly deplete their cell phone to use another cell phone battery because it's stupid, but you can. The reason they don't do that is because it's stupid. Doing so would be equivalent to depleting your mp before convert. You have yet explained how the concepts are different.

If people did deplete their cell phones as such, then that analogy wouldn't support my argument.

Before US cell phones became more popular in Korea, everyone carried 2 batteries just for that reason. Every phone came with two batteries because the battery life was always iffy. At any given time, people would change out batteries. Nobody purposely drained their battery just to use their spare. They used their phone as normal and replaced when low.

Fynlar wrote:
You are essentially asking why the apple you have can't also be considered an orange. It's an incredulous argument, and it's one that I'm really hoping you let die after this, because I'm not going to be giving it any more attention.


Good for you because I just realized that you're not doing this on purpose, you just really don't understand. I made a comparison how people DON'T do something because doing so would be stupid and equivalent to doing the action in conversation. You countered that people DON'T do what was mentioned in my analogy.. Of course they don't, that was the whole point, to show how stupid doing so it is. Instead of explaining the fundamental difference between the scenario, you just replied with "no one does that", which was the entire point to begin with.

Fynlar wrote:
As strictly a healer (WHM)? Obviously not.


Ok then, so you can't argue that not using convert when the timer is up is inherently stupid. You have just said that it is situational.

Fynlar wrote:
Once again, Sleep and Dispel on /SCH might as well not even exist because Addendum: Black make them too cumbersome to use.

Your "primary" or whatever arguments are useless to me. It doesn't matter to me what job is "best" at doing something; I have to work with what I have, and often in Abyssea I am the only mage there in my "group" and I have to take care of it as a WHM because other healer jobs are simply not sufficient.


You being too lazy to use sleep and dispel as /SCH is one thing, just don't act like that others are missing out on it.

I made the note that if you're duo as WHM and MNK, then /SCH is probably not the best sub. I never argued that /sch was the best in every scenario, just in most scenarios.

Fynlar wrote:
You're absolutely right; Refresh is right there among the least of my worries. That's why I'm usually not casting it and staying at the ready with Cures.

Maybe you haven't ever fought anything worthwhile in Abyssea, but there's some things out there that can do ridiculous amounts of damage in an instant. To share just one (and not even the best) example, there's Alfard. This thing attacks fast, hits hard, and will occasionally get in an attack + Serpentine Tail combo that can dish out upward to 3-4k damage on a target within the span of a couple seconds. I need to be throwing Cures right away in those scenarios, not lollygagging around with a 3/tic Refresh and possibly subjecting the tank to another hit before he gets a Cure.

Every little thing I cast that isn't a Cure and takes longer than a Cure (such as Regen, another thing I do not use in Abyssea) is a risk, and I prefer to minimize them.


So how is it that casting refresh is such a distraction, yet you're able to dual box the said same enemies with 3-4k dealing damage while not allowing anyone to ever die? Someone's full of ish.

If you have time to play two characters at once and not die, then you have time to cast refresh playing as one character and not allowing your partner to die. Plain and simple.

Fynlar wrote:
Again, MP efficiency isn't as important for a healer in Abyssea. You (should) often have more MP than you need.

But really, using a single JA to get the same amount of MP as multiple uses of /SCH JAs does sound like a form of efficiency to me, if you want to get technical.


I don't see how you can argue about MP not ever being a problem and yet latch on convert so much. When I hit 80, I switched from /sch to /rdm. I realized that convert wasn't necessary given the amount refresh I was getting, so I went back to /sch. I'm not sure how you can admit that MP not being a problem and still act like convert (mp tool) being so important. That doesn't make sense.

Fynlar wrote:
I fail to see what that has to do with anything. By the way, if you're actually an experienced enough WHM like I am, you'd already have Healing skill capped anyway and Light Arts wouldn't raise it any more anyway. Lol @ thinking the skill actually means a sh*t, though.

And if you're never having to use Cure 6, whatever you're fighting in Abyssea is a joke anyways.


???-- I was doing just fine with cure III up until Abyssea, so I beg to differ.

Fynlar wrote:
Idk; you tell me? You're the one trying to shove a subjob that's pretty much purely about MP conservation in my face.


Uh, I'm asking you. How is fast cast about mp conservation?

Fynlar wrote:
What? I thought we've been talking about WHM this whole time. Unless you've found some way to sub /RDM on your RDM and you were actually talking about RDM this whole time.



Nope, I said /sch was the best MAGE sub job and I explicitly said that BLM/SCH was the best crowd control combination.

I'm actually going to stop here. I'll do the rest later. I'ts 0230 and I'll be up all morning responding to this.

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 7:18am by Almalieque
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#18 Aug 28 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Nope, I said /sch was the best MAGE sub job and I explicitly said that BLM/SCH was the best crowd control combination.


It isn't, and SCH/RDM is the best crowd control job, by miles.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#19 Aug 28 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Default
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Short on time, I'll finish responding to the other post later.


LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Nope, I said /sch was the best MAGE sub job and I explicitly said that BLM/SCH was the best crowd control combination.


It isn't, and SCH/RDM is the best crowd control job, by miles.


I can give you that. The point being, if crowd control is such an issue then you shouldn't be WHM. Else, it's not an issue, therefore having to hit a JA MACRO sleep, if Repose doesn't stick for whatever reason, is no big deal.

If the guy is fighting mobs that is dealing upwards to 4k damage, it is impossible for him to be playing both characters at once, while doing crowd control, not die and somehow not have enough time to cast refresh.

He's combining various scenarios to support his argument.
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#20 Aug 29 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
THAT'S THE WHOLE FREAKIN POINT. People don't rapidly deplete their cell phone to use another cell phone battery because it's stupid, but you can. The reason they don't do that is because it's stupid. Doing so would be equivalent to depleting your mp before convert.


No, it's not equivalent.


Quote:
So how is it that casting refresh is such a distraction, yet you're able to dual box the said same enemies with 3-4k dealing damage while not allowing anyone to ever die? Someone's full of ish.


Most of the enemies do not deal 3-4k damage with a single hit. It's done with a combo, such as a double attack + crit -> immediate TP move. If I'm not casting something stupid like Refresh, I can often squeeze in a cure in time to prevent a death. Perhaps that concept is unfamiliar to you because you cast too much fluff?


Quote:
If you have time to play two characters at once and not die, then you have time to cast refresh playing as one character and not allowing your partner to die. Plain and simple.


You keep saying these kinds of things, but that doesn't make them inherently correct.


Quote:
I don't see how you can argue about MP not ever being a problem and yet latch on convert so much.


The few times MP would be a problem, having Convert makes it not a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?


Quote:
When I hit 80, I switched from /sch to /rdm. I realized that convert wasn't necessary given the amount refresh I was getting, so I went back to /sch. I'm not sure how you can admit that MP not being a problem and still act like convert (mp tool) being so important. That doesn't make sense.


Ok then?

Even if I never use Convert at all, I still find /RDM generally more useful due to having Sleeps/Dispels that aren't locked behind JAs.


Quote:
Uh, I'm asking you. How is fast cast about mp conservation?


When did I ever say that it was?
#21 Aug 29 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
When I hit 80, I switched from /sch to /rdm. I realized that convert wasn't necessary given the amount refresh I was getting, so I went back to /sch. I'm not sure how you can admit that MP not being a problem and still act like convert (mp tool) being so important. That doesn't make sense.


Here now stop posting about it. As you can see /RDM offers more staying power when focusing on smaller groups using more single target spells, as the number of targets increases then an only then does SCH move ahead.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=1&mid=1292239426278472421&h=50&p=2#68

RDM > SCH for whm sub most of the time.

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 7:12am by rdmcandie
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#22 Aug 29 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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RDM/RDM, how we roll.
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#23 Aug 29 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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Are we arguing about subs for Red Mage or Black Mage?
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#24 Aug 29 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Default
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WHM. Hence why I provided a link to the WHM forum.
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#25 Aug 29 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Default
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I'll get to the rest later..

cidbahamut wrote:
Are we arguing about subs for Red Mage or Black Mage?


I'm talking about the overall best sub for ALL mages. My argument is that /SCH is overall generally the best sub for any given mage at any given time. This does not mean it is the best 100% of the time, but if you had to choose just ONE sub to level, it should be SCH.
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#26 Aug 29 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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First,

Let me reiterate that for your scenario of duo with a MNK, /sch is not ideal. Once again, I'm talking in a general sense.

Fynlar wrote:
It doesn't matter what I "should" be doing on WHM. The fact is oftentimes I am the only person there to do it.

Also, Repose doesn't work well on everything, duh. It's also just a single single-target spell, meaning it's often insufficient for sleeping needs. It also doesn't allow sleep stacking. There are flaws to having just Repose alone.


Read above. If you're in any party scenario and you're the one sleeping, then your party is wrong, not your sub. If your party asked you to /war so you could tank, would you argue that /war is an ideal sub for WHM?

Fynlar wrote:

Because in Abyssea, any healer that isn't a WHM is often simply insufficient.


Situational. For any mob that requires a WHM, you will not be able to duo-box AND do crowd control at the same time.

Fynlar wrote:
Oh, if it's just Sublimation alone, it's no contest whatsoever; Convert will win.

Sublimation will only generate 600 MP (3/tic) in 10 minutes, and that's assuming you have it active the entire time (which you can't, due to the way Sublimation works).

If even Convert isn't enough as a WHM, it most likely means you're an undergeared WHM or lacking the correct atmas.


Convert will generate more MP, but it's the trade off. Sublimation is a great alternative given the other benefits of being /sch. The additional benefits gain outweigh the amount of additional gained MP from convert.

Fynlar wrote:
Yeah, I can. Stoneskin takes an eternity to cast, and that's ALL it does. Cure casts faster, and does more. Really not a hard concept to understand.


Again, situtational. cure+stoneskin is the shiznit, definitely, but being able to AoE pro V, Shell V, phalanx, cure IV and/or Stoneskin before, or during a fight is definitely worth the strategem.

Fynlar wrote:
I'm not seeing how clicking a bunch of additional JAs in order to use something that I could get right at my fingertips without having to do that is the opposite of laziness. Maybe additional unnecessary work in a video game gives you a raging *****, but believe me, I've outgrown that.


It's called a macro. It's lazy because you're willing to forfeit other pros for being /sch under the argument of having to "hit extra buttons" on a spell that you will rarely have to ever use.

Fynlar wrote:
You're also duoing way slower than me, and you're not duoing anything that isn't already a joke. So somehow, I'm rather OK with this.


IF crowd control is an issue, then you would be more concerned about surviving than time speed. Obviously, crowd control isn't an issue and you're just hiding behind sleep/dispel as an argument.

Well news flash, if the bonus of LA is negligible, then also the traverse effect of DA. This means a few extra spells in DA wont be a big deal.

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#27 Aug 29 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Situational. For any mob that requires a WHM, you will not be able to duo-box AND do crowd control at the same time.


I do this every day.

Quote:
Again, situtational. cure+stoneskin is the shiznit, definitely, but being able to AoE pro V, Shell V, phalanx, cure IV and/or Stoneskin before, or during a fight is definitely worth the strategem.


For all your railing against laziness, presenting Pro/Shell as things that make strategems worthwhile to WHM is curious. WHM/SCH doesn't get Phalanx. Afflatus Stoneskin > Accession Stoneskin. Phalanx isn't worth the time to cast unless you're Whisker burning / Cleaving. In other words, Accession is largely useless for WHM in today's game, making /SCH's only real benefit MP efficiency.

Quote:
It's called a macro. It's lazy because you're willing to forfeit other pros for being /sch under the argument of having to "hit extra buttons" on a spell that you will rarely have to ever use.


Laziness has nothing to do with it; changing Addenda via macros with /wait commands takes 3 seconds minimum, and given that /SCH addenda spells are the kind that tend to be time-sensitive (-nas, Dispel, Sleep)... /SCH becomes a much less attractive subjob when switching between addenda is necessary, just as SCH main becomes much less attractive as a main job in the same situations.

When 2boxing, as I do and I know Fynlar does, these distinctions only become more pronounced. It's the same reason why Refresh is so very rarely worth casting when /RDM; 110 net MP over 2.5 minutes (when your gear is restoring 350MP over the same window) just isn't that great, and there's just usually better things to be doing with your time, like casting SS/Blink, running ahead and pulling the next mob, etc.

It really just boils down to the fact that WHM barely needs MP conversation from their subjob at all anymore; and if they do, Convert more than covers it, making Refresh a waste of time.

Quote:
Well news flash, if the bonus of LA is negligible, then also the traverse effect of DA. This means a few extra spells in DA wont be a big deal.


Actually no, as the penalties for casting out of Arts are double that of the benefits of casting in Arts. You don't do much research, do you?

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 4:15pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#28 Aug 29 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Nothing worth saying that Lyl didn't already. How am I gonna curb my boredom between classes, now?
#29 Aug 30 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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I'm talking about the overall best sub for ALL mages. My argument is that /SCH is overall generally the best sub for any given mage at any given time. This does not mean it is the best 100% of the time, but if you had to choose just ONE sub to level, it should be SCH.


But that is not true at all

WHM/RDM can cure longer in the majority of situations (noted in the link I posted above, that you probably didn't click.) That makes RDM the best sub overall for WHM. Not SCH.

Probably the biggest reason to /SCH doesn't even work with RDM, and since skill levels are meaningless in the majority of situations, the -MP cost is trivial, the fast cast doesn't even benefit RDM.

The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.

BLM is default, since RDM sucks at healing for the most part anyway (although it can heal +1 seals nm's and some +2 nm's with relative ease with an evade tank). It offers more in a group situation then WHM, and in a low man situation, stuns can save wipes.

BLM/SCH - gets nothing, at all. /WHM here for low man group play (until 96 when /RDM gives haste), /RDM for solo, and large group events.

/SCH is pretty much the worst mage sub for these mage jobs most of the time, it has some neat tricks, but WHM clearly is better with /RDM (click the link) For RDM /BLM and /WHM are about even and SCH can't match what they offer (Stona, Bar spells/ Stun). For BLM it will be RDM but is currently WHM for its ability to main heal a duo with an evade tank.

Stop posting your personal beliefs as fact, the ability's of all the jobs when subbed do not support your opinion.


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#30 Aug 30 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.
For a /SCH-relevant scenario... Stoneskinga+Phalanxga is solid. I like how either spell can circumstantially take more strategem priority than the other from fight to fight; no idea why that slightly tickles me... it's f*cking two spells for pete's sake.

Anyway, Early Bird Catches the Wyrm immediately strikes me as a /SCH fight. The art-juggling in that fight is straightforward yet flexible and messy; effective yet fun.

RDM/sch can help tank the air part pretty well.

Mainly hanging around in light arts for Phalanxga/Stoneskinga/Blink/Cure bomb/helping regen... and then arbitrarily switching to dark arts to dish nukes... maybe a little bio/poison action... who knows? It's as if RDM/sch's role in that fight is to be as disorganized and MP-aggressive as possible. Love it!

But yea, for most of Vanadiel nowadays, /SCH isn't optimal.
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#31 Aug 30 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
No, it's not equivalent.


Oh, since you put it that way.. Smiley: oyvey

They are the same.


Fynlar wrote:
Most of the enemies do not deal 3-4k damage with a single hit. It's done with a combo, such as a double attack + crit -> immediate TP move. If I'm not casting something stupid like Refresh, I can often squeeze in a cure in time to prevent a death. Perhaps that concept is unfamiliar to you because you cast too much fluff?


It doesn't matter if it's one move or a combo. If you're able to duobox, crowd control and prevent your other character from dying from a 3-4k damage hit/combo, then you can cast refresh. There really isn't any way around it. If you have enough time to cast sleep on a mob that is there, then you have time to cast refresh when you don't need to sleep a mob. It takes more time and effort to sleep a mob then it does refreshing yourself.

Fynlar wrote:

You keep saying these kinds of things, but that doesn't make them inherently correct.


You're right, it's correct because it's correct. I'm just stating the truth.

Fynlar wrote:

The few times MP would be a problem, having Convert makes it not a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?


Think about it......

You are saying that MP is hardly an issue. Then you say that convert is the BEST MP tool... If MP is hardly an issue and Convert is soooo great, then chances are, other MP alternatives would suffice. Else, Convert isn't as great as you claim or MP is a greater issue than what you're making it out to appear.

Fynlar wrote:
Ok then?

Even if I never use Convert at all, I still find /RDM generally more useful due to having Sleeps/Dispels that aren't locked behind JAs.


Which would only matter if you actually had to sleep/dispel often.

Fynlar wrote:

When did I ever say that it was?


You said all of /sch is about MP conservation, so how are all of those traits/abilities about MP conservation.
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#32 Aug 30 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
I do this every day.



If you do, then I assure you that cure V/VI isn't necessary, which was the point of the comment.

Lyltia wrote:
For all your railing against laziness, presenting Pro/Shell as things that make strategems worthwhile to WHM is curious. WHM/SCH doesn't get Phalanx. Afflatus Stoneskin > Accession Stoneskin. Phalanx isn't worth the time to cast unless you're Whisker burning / Cleaving. In other words, Accession is largely useless for WHM in today's game, making /SCH's only real benefit MP efficiency.


I stated several times that I'm referencing to over all sub and that in his scenario, /sch is probably not idea.

Lyltia wrote:
When 2boxing, as I do and I know Fynlar does, these distinctions only become more pronounced. It's the same reason why Refresh is so very rarely worth casting when /RDM; 110 net MP over 2.5 minutes (when your gear is restoring 350MP over the same window) just isn't that great, and there's just usually better things to be doing with your time, like casting SS/Blink, running ahead and pulling the next mob, etc.


Which means there isn't a need to ride convert. If you are netting so much MP that you don't even need refresh, then you don't need to use convert every 10 minutes.

Quote:
It really just boils down to the fact that WHM barely needs MP conversation from their subjob at all anymore; and if they do, Convert more than covers it,making Refresh a waste of time not necessary


My point exactly.
Lyltia wrote:
Actually no, as the penalties for casting out of Arts are double that of the benefits of casting in Arts. You don't do much research, do you?


Which means the benefits are more than what you're leading on if double it makes a really big difference. Else, it would be just a speed bump.
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#33 Aug 30 2011 at 4:23 AM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about the overall best sub for ALL mages. My argument is that /SCH is overall generally the best sub for any given mage at any given time. This does not mean it is the best 100% of the time, but if you had to choose just ONE sub to level, it should be SCH.


But that is not true at all

WHM/RDM can cure longer in the majority of situations (noted in the link I posted above, that you probably didn't click.) That makes RDM the best sub overall for WHM. Not SCH.

Probably the biggest reason to /SCH doesn't even work with RDM, and since skill levels are meaningless in the majority of situations, the -MP cost is trivial, the fast cast doesn't even benefit RDM.

The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.

BLM is default, since RDM sucks at healing for the most part anyway (although it can heal +1 seals nm's and some +2 nm's with relative ease with an evade tank). It offers more in a group situation then WHM, and in a low man situation, stuns can save wipes.

BLM/SCH - gets nothing, at all. /WHM here for low man group play (until 96 when /RDM gives haste), /RDM for solo, and large group events.

/SCH is pretty much the worst mage sub for these mage jobs most of the time, it has some neat tricks, but WHM clearly is better with /RDM (click the link) For RDM /BLM and /WHM are about even and SCH can't match what they offer (Stona, Bar spells/ Stun). For BLM it will be RDM but is currently WHM for its ability to main heal a duo with an evade tank.

Stop posting your personal beliefs as fact, the ability's of all the jobs when subbed do not support your opinion.




I was going to respond to each of your comments, but I'll just say that you're a tool.

You all can't say that MP isn't an issue then turn around and want /rdm for convert. That's stupid. /SCH offers way more crap for any mage job than any other sub can ESPECIALLY for RDM. If you don't suck as a RDM, then you should be switching between black and white magic and /sch is the only sub that allows you to do that.
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#34 Aug 30 2011 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't matter if it's one move or a combo. If you're able to duobox, crowd control and prevent your other character from dying from a 3-4k damage hit/combo, then you can cast refresh. There really isn't any way around it.


Well, no, you're not necessarily correct. But even if you were, the fact is that I don't bother doing it because I don't need to. Convert is enough and takes care of the job with far less effort.


Quote:
You're right, it's correct because it's correct. I'm just stating the truth.


There's a big difference between being the only person who thinks they are correct and actually being correct. You haven't quite made it to the exalted latter group yet.


Quote:
Think about it......

You are saying that MP is hardly an issue. Then you say that convert is the BEST MP tool... If MP is hardly an issue and Convert is soooo great, then chances are, other MP alternatives would suffice. Else, Convert isn't as great as you claim or MP is a greater issue than what you're making it out to appear.


Sure, other MP alternatives might suffice. But you haven't given me a good reason as to why I should bother to use them when Convert adequately fulfills whatever need I might have in Abyssea.


Quote:
Which would only matter if you actually had to sleep/dispel often.


And I do, because I like to be able to handle things on my own that would otherwise take a second mage to deal with. Kind of an important lowman philosophy, you know


Quote:
You said all of /sch is about MP conservation, so how are all of those traits/abilities about MP conservation.


The FC on Light Arts is a non-factor for WHM because /RDM also gets it naturally. It does not set it apart from /RDM.


Quote:
If you do, then I assure you that cure V/VI isn't necessary, which was the point of the comment.


Again, if your claims of RDM+BRD duo in Abyssea are accurate, it means that 1) you only know about joke mobs, or 2) you take an eternity DoT kiting tough mobs to death because you sure as **** aren't tanking them. Try that argument again once you've actually fought something worth a ****.


Quote:
Which means there isn't a need to ride convert. If you are netting so much MP that you don't even need refresh, then you don't need to use convert every 10 minutes.


WHMs typically would not just dump their MP in order to use a Convert. The original discussion on =10 was about RDM mains though, who have many more options for MP dumping that aren't total wastes, such as nukes. (WHM has Holy, but you can't exactly rapidfire effective Holy casts)


Quote:
Which means the benefits are more than what you're leading on if double it makes a really big difference. Else, it would be just a speed bump.


Again, not necessarily.


Quote:
You all can't say that MP isn't an issue then turn around and want /rdm for convert.


Again, yes we can.


Quote:
If you don't suck as a RDM, then you should be switching between black and white magic and /sch is the only sub that allows you to do that.


Yep, RDM definitely was not employing both white and black magic prior to the release of WotG. Those times I was churning out both Cures/Hastes as well as nukes/Sleeps/Binds must have all been in my head.


I think I've just about had it with this thread. Boredom I like, but my mind can only tolerate so much stupid before it starts overloading with more ferocity than any synergy furnace you've ever seen.
#35 Aug 30 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I think I've just about had it with this thread. Boredom I like, but my mind can only tolerate so much stupid before it starts overloading with more ferocity than any synergy furnace you've ever seen.
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#36 Aug 30 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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More and more I'm convinced Alma hasn't actually played since 2009; never before have I seen someone argue so vehemently in favor of outdated information and tactics.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#37 Aug 30 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know a thread has gone downhill when I'm actually siding with RCD on something.
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#38Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 2:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thanks, because at least RDD is a well known troll, you're actually trying to be serious. You're simply full of trash. I will admit, not intentionally, you're just combining various scenarios to make one argument. You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing. Those are all different scenarios, but you jump to one freely to counter an attack on another scenario as if they are one.
#39Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 2:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I guess I'm just ahead of the pack.... It's no different than when I argued the same stuff people are arguing now about RDM melee back in 2003+. Funny how that works.
#41 Aug 30 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I was referring to status removals, protectra, drain, etc. Don't you remember when people had to make decisions between subbing whm or blm for status removals,protectra/shelra, curaga or asprir, drain and sleepga? Really? With /SCH, you get all of them.


Too bad you still can't fluidly switch between them due to all the good stuff requiring stratagems/Addenda.

I've always preferred to just figure out what the group needs and just /WHM if it needed status heals. By the way, back then there were -na spells that /SCH still would not give, and Stona also will not be subbable by /SCH even at 99. Stona might not have been as important back at 75 cap, but in Abyssea there is actually rather a lot of stuff that will petrify you.

If I would absolutely need Sleepga, even nowadays, I will use /BLM instead of /SCH. It's not worth having to fire DA+Addendum+Manifestation just to use a Sleepga, not to mention the fact that it kills your Sleep recast.

If I was taking a nuking role, I would then use /SCH for the Elemental skill boost.


Quote:
You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing.


You keep jumping to that point; it must really bother you how other people can pull something off that you apparently cannot.

Anyway, when Cure 5/6 spamming, having to cast *anything* other than Cures is a risk. Even Sleeps/Dispels. However, there are such things as justified risks. Refresh just isn't one of them.

Really can't explain it any more simply than that.


Quote:
I guess I'm just ahead of the pack.... It's no different than when I argued the same stuff people are arguing now about RDM melee back in 2003+. Funny how that works.


Yep, you must be really sure of yourself. Must explain why you've had to chronicle all the times you've been agreed with in your signature, like it's an event worth marking on a calendar.
#42 Aug 30 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Besides, that mob must not be so uber if you have time to handle links and duo box at the same freakin time.


Quote:
You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing.


You keep saying this, and all it does is point out to those of us that aren't horrible at the game that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
I have, because you're giving up other bonuses from SCH for additional MP that you admit that you don't need.


As I already pointed out, /SCH offers WHM nothing outside MP efficiency. Accession is useless. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven't played the job and are therefore talking out of your ***.

Alma, The only way you're ahead of your time is if the future involves the machines taking over and sticking us all in a computer simulation of 2009.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 6:27pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#43 Aug 30 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
Well, for some stupid reason, talking about your job's update in a job update thread is "out of topic" and I had already created this post while it was being locked, I'm "transferring" the topic to here. Take it or leave it.


The reason I had locked it and said that it was going off-topic was that it had been derailed from a general job adjustments topic to people arguing about the proper use of Convert and other things that had nothing to do with the original subject of that topic.

As for this topic, I want you all to avoid insults aimed at other people. If you have an issue with what's being discussed, then debate the information they're giving. There's no need for comments just telling people to shut up or things like that. If you don't like what the person has to say, then debate what they're saying, don't throw jabs at the person.
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#44Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 10:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Crap, I thought you were done...
#45 Aug 30 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a stupid excuse. If I had to choose between being able to hit a macro to cast a spell vs not having the spell, I think we know what the best choice is.


I prefer just having the crucial spell(s) I need without requiring any JAs to use it :D


Quote:
There you go again, now you're in a group. Before you were in a duo, before that you were duo boxing. You keep changing scenarios to counter points. There isn't a 100% overall better sub, everything is situational so finding a scenario to counter another scenario will not disprove a sub being an overall best mage sub in general.


Last I checked, 2 characters still make a party and/or group. It's an all-inclusive term.

And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
OP wrote:
Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.

My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.


Quote:
Yea... you got me wrong. It's not that you CAN'T do something, but that you CAN do something and you're full of trash saying that you can't.

If you can spare 3 seconds every 30 seconds then you can spare 5 seconds ever 2.5 mins. You may claim that it isn't worth it, but you mathematically can not say that doing so will cause death. Especially given the seconds lost in transition for duobox.


It can though, and often has. I have had people die before due to casting Refresh, Stoneskinga, Auspice, and other fluff spells. You can pratter away all you want about how that can't happen, but it does, and you would know this if you've ever actually fought anything meaningful in Abyssea.

It's rather a big part of why I've stopped casting a lot of them during a serious fight. I've had to evaluate what's worth casting and what isn't, and Refresh did not make the cut.

Also, Sleep usually isn't used in the middle of serious fights (smart people will pull NMs to an area where you won't keep getting aggro every 10 seconds, you see) so you can stop making casting time comparisons between Sleep and Refresh.
#46 Aug 30 2011 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar 1 Alma 0!

Quote:
And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
Quote:
OP wrote:
Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.


My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.



(granted i think I said this several posts ago, but gj Fynlar.)
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#47 Aug 31 2011 at 1:26 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
You keep saying this, and all it does is point out to those of us that aren't horrible at the game that you have no idea what you're talking abou


You're totally missing the point. It's not that you can't do something, it's that you're exaggerating a scenario as if you can't do something else, when in fact you can.


If you're casting cure V/VI out of pure necessity to the point where casting refresh would cause someone to die, then so would casting sleep on mobs every 30 seconds. The mob doesn't go into "easy mode" based on what spell you're casting.

Lyltia wrote:
As I already pointed out, /SCH offers WHM nothing outside MP efficiency. Accession is useless. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven't played the job and are therefore talking out of your ***.

Alma, The only way you're ahead of your time is if the future involves the machines taking over and sticking us all in a computer simulation of 2009.


My entire argument has been about /sch for every job, not just whm. Even if /sch were "useless" for whm, that still wouldn't disqualify it for being the best mage sub.

Simply saying something is useless doesn't make it so. The bottom line is that /sch gives you more tools for both black and white magic for any given job. The primary times when /sch wouldn't be idea is if you're needing a specific spell that /sch doesn't give you.
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#48 Aug 31 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
I prefer just having the crucial spell(s) I need without requiring any JAs to use it :D


You're talking in circles, we already established that you don't NEED them, but when you do, you sub BLM, not RDM.

Fynlar wrote:
Last I checked, 2 characters still make a party and/or group. It's an all-inclusive term.


No it's not. You said that you based your sub based on what the group needs. You said your duo partner is a Monk, so it will never change, therefore, you were referring to an entirely different scenario. Unless that is, you forget what a MNK is capable of every time you play and you have to research it to see if anything changed.

Fynlar wrote:
And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
.......

My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.


Why you think that is contradictory is beyond me. Just shows your lack of understanding.

The first quote said 100%, which means in every scenario. I've stated numerous times on this page that there is no one job that is perfect in EVERY scenario. I even stated numerous times that /SCH isn't probably the best sub for WHM + MNK combo. That does not in any way keep it from being the best overall mage sub. Crap, like I said in my previous post, it can be the worst sub for WHM and still be considered the best overall mage sub..

You're grasping at straws now.... I guess that's a good sign of you actually quitting like you said you were.

Fynlar wrote:
It can though, and often has. I have had people die before due to casting Refresh, Stoneskinga, Auspice, and other fluff spells. You can pratter away all you want about how that can't happen, but it does, and you would know this if you've ever actually fought anything meaningful in Abyssea.



But you said that you don't allow people to die, so who's contracting themselves now? You're once again changing the scenario. If people ARE dying from those spells, then yes, any spell at that time can cause death. You claimed that no one dies. The mob doesn't know what spell you're casting. You are either able to cure or you aren't. If 5 seconds away from curing will cause someone to die, then it doesn't matter if that spell were cure, refresh, haste or protect.

So, you can pretend all you want that somehow the game favors one spell over another, but it doesn't work that way. 5 seconds is 5 seconds.

Fynlar wrote:
It's rather a big part of why I've stopped casting a lot of them during a serious fight. I've had to evaluate what's worth casting and what isn't, and Refresh did not make the cut.


Not saying that it should have, just points out that you don't have an MP issue, because if you did, you would cast it. Convert alone wont cut out an MP issue. It'll help you in the times when you might be out of MP, but that's not the same as an "MP issue". Constantly being low on MP isn't the same as being low on MP every once in a while.

Fynlar wrote:
Also, Sleep usually isn't used in the middle of serious fights (smart people will pull NMs to an area where you won't keep getting aggro every 10 seconds, you see) so you can stop making casting time comparisons between Sleep and Refresh.


That's EXACTLY MY POINT.. You don't need sleep, so stop acting like needing sleep in the middle of a SERIOUS fight is necessary. You don't need it, therefore, having to program DA in your macro to sleep a mob is negligible.

If for whatever reason you're having to cast sleep every 10-30 seconds on a mob, then you have time to cast refresh.


It's really that simple, pick one.
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#50 Aug 31 2011 at 4:51 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're casting cure V/VI out of pure necessity to the point where casting refresh would cause someone to die, then so would casting sleep on mobs every 30 seconds. The mob doesn't go into "easy mode" based on what spell you're casting.


Okay, so assume equal chance of tank death when casting Refresh or Sleep, fair enough. Now, look past that and determine what each spell does for you. Refresh, adds a small amount of MP over time that may help, but most likely won't; Sleep, if I don't cast it, everyone dies.

Also consider that if I run out of MP, i still have other tools available to me, such as meds/Benediction, but if I don't cast Sleep, everyone dies.

It's pretty obvious that Refresh is an unnecessary risk, and Sleep is absolutely vital to success.

Quote:
My entire argument has been about /sch for every job, not just whm. Even if /sch were "useless" for whm, that still wouldn't disqualify it for being the best mage sub.


Regardless of how much you've contradicted yourself in this very thread (you spent several posts arguing that /SCH is best overall for WHM, and now this), the fact remains that the 2 best buffs for use with Accession are either outdated (Refresh) or outclassed (Stoneskin). Everything else about /SCH is MP efficiency.

The point is, it's subjective depending on your playstyle (although at this point in the game, a playstyle that makes heavy use of /SCH for their mages is questionable indeed), and trying to argue something that is pretty much impossible to prove beyond a doubt to others (it being subjective and all) to the degree which you've pursued it here is folly.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#51 Aug 31 2011 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
Okay, so assume equal chance of tank death when casting Refresh or Sleep, fair enough. Now, look past that and determine what each spell does for you. Refresh, adds a small amount of MP over time that may help, but most likely won't; Sleep, if I don't cast it, everyone dies.

Also consider that if I run out of MP, i still have other tools available to me, such as meds/Benediction, but if I don't cast Sleep, everyone dies.

It's pretty obvious that Refresh is an unnecessary risk, and Sleep is absolutely vital to success.


Here's the thing. I never said it wasn't worth casting. I even said I switched back from /rdm back to /sch just because I didn't need refresh or convert. My point, which it appears you see now, you can't claim that one causes death and the other one doesn't.

The simple fact that you axed refresh from your spells to cast (which used to be the #1/#2 spell in the game along with haste) means MP is not an issue. Even as a RDM, I hardly get anyone asking me for refresh II. MP is just not a big issue like before, which means convert is nothing more than a preference MP tool, nothing to push /rdm over any other job. Especially when other jobs do just fine not being /rdm.

Lyltia wrote:
Regardless of how much you've contradicted yourself in this very thread (you spent several posts arguing that /SCH is best overall for WHM, and now this), the fact remains that the 2 best buffs for use with Accession are either outdated (Refresh) or outclassed (Stoneskin). Everything else about /SCH is MP efficiency.


Please point out the contradiction because you're clearly confused. First of all, this topic started off as main RDM subbing sch. Fynlar came into this bringing up WHM. I still believe /sch is the best mage sub for whm, but being so doesn't mean it's the best in EVERY scenario. Being in a duo is much different than being in a LS alliance event. And yes, my LS (which i rarely participate in due to my schedule) does LS events every week.

My counter to you was even if it WERE NOT(not that isn't) the best sub for WHM, it still doesn't disqualify it as being the best mage sub.

If /sch is about MP efficiency for any job, then you simply fail. There's too many tools that I listed several times already that's not directly "mp efficiency". Unless I'm reading ffxiclopedia wrong, you get a better recast time but worse casting time with /sch and vice versa with /rdm.

Lyltia wrote:
The point is, it's subjective depending on your playstyle (although at this point in the game, a playstyle that makes heavy use of /SCH for their mages is questionable indeed), and trying to argue something that is pretty much impossible to prove beyond a doubt to others (it being subjective and all) to the degree which you've pursued it here is folly.


Once again, I'm not arguing that one sub is perfect for every scenario. I'm arguing if you were to look at every scenario and tally up which sub would win in each scenario, then /sch would win overall.

It goes back to the race argument. One can argue a specific race is over the best given EVERY scenario, but depending on your playing style and what you do, just like everything else in this game, it's situational.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 1:20pm by Almalieque
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
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