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Job Adjustments ManifestoFollow

#102 Jul 20 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Neither of those jobs are invited for DMG, they are invited to (THF) Tank and/or TH (proc Blue), (BLU) to Proc Yellow.

Thats it, they are no more useful then RDM, if BLU didn't have its own unique procs, it would be just as useless to people, If THF didn't have THF or the ability to TH, then it would not be used over DNC, or NIN as the preferred Evade tank.


Sadly this is true. I'm not so sure that is a bad thing though. BLU is a hybrid and that means they can preform tons of duties. THF's have always been lackluster DD's in the FF series. In FF1, the RDM class was much better than a THF. Shadow(NIN) and Sabin(MNK) easily destroyed Locke in FF6 too. I think as long as THF can be useful besides TH, it's in good shape.
#103 Jul 20 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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But Locke wasn't a Thief.

He was a Treasure Hunter.
#104 Jul 20 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:

The big feeling I get from SE is their afraid of enabling another Avesta. Of giving the job anything that could possibly make it stronger in any sense, out of fear that someone will find a way to abuse it to solo super NM's. And until this fear is removed, RDM will never ever ~ever~ get anything of substance. Avesta did some amazing things, but no single player hurt the job more then he did.


Why would they care at this point in the game? SE has tried to make things more and more casual. It's no longer an issue to solo things.
The re's no reason to expect the dev team to be any more enlightened than it's player base. Their old, baseless fears are probably just as deeply rooted as anyone's.
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#105 Jul 20 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
The DA is easy enough to calculate. +1% chance to add +1 fTP per hand which averages about a +.02 fTP increase while dual wielding if my math is correct.

Looks like the rate down trolls are back, time for a round of green.


Yeah they like to follow me around and click red on everything, usually a week or so after I post it. Already had the admin's nuke an account, looks like they found another.

It's mostly the hater's from BG coming over.

I've been green arrowing everything whenever I can cause I know in a week or two they'll search out your posts and red arrow em.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#106 Jul 20 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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They seem to take up following most anyone here that disagrees with them. The way some have spoken on the official boards serves as a pretty nice clue, but that doesn't quite out socks.
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#107 Jul 21 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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It's the troll tactic. Shout down people by sheer persistence and harassment until they get bored and move onto the next topic to troll.

I see it happen too often in communities these days and I swear someday it's going to push me into a psychotic internet-serial killer rampage.

Trolling people online would be a lot less common if it was suddenly fatal.

Edited, Jul 21st 2011 12:48pm by Hyrist
#108 Jul 21 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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You do realize that talking about karma ratings is the quickest way to guarantee more karma carpet bombings, right?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#109 Jul 21 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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So says one of the bombers.

Normally I wouldn't care, but when you have people following others around with the intention of camping them, then it gets childish. The campers have already been reported to the admins, their watching you :p
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#110 Jul 21 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
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Sure, because we've never seen people complain about karma in =10 and watched as they immediately get sub-defaulted for making a ruckus about it. Right.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#111 Jul 21 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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=10 is different from =2 where people will enter Rdm melee threads JUST to red arrow the posters...

...a month later after the last post was made.
#112 Jul 21 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
=10 is different from =2 where people will enter Rdm melee threads JUST to red arrow the posters...

...a month later after the last post was made.

This is true.

However, my point still stands. Fussing about karma incites people to hit that red arrow when normally they'd be inclined to just ignore it and move on.

Now can we move on and get back to squabbling about the job adjustments?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#113 Jul 21 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Shadow(NIN) and Sabin(MNK) easily destroyed Locke in FF6 too.


Actually no, at the endgame, Locke easily surpasses both with minimal effort.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#114 Jul 21 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually no, at the endgame, Locke easily surpasses both with minimal effort.


Eh, you have to sacrafice weapons better suited on other characters to get that kind of performance.

But then again, Shadow and Sabin don't really get flushed out very well during the end of the game due to how broken items like Offering/Gem Box are and there's nothing out to assist Shadow with this.
#115 Jul 21 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
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Actually no, at the endgame, Locke easily surpasses both with minimal effort.


Eh, you have to sacrafice weapons better suited on other characters to get that kind of performance.

But then again, Shadow and Sabin don't really get flushed out very well during the end of the game due to how broken items like Offering/Gem Box are and there's nothing out to assist Shadow with this.


Well yeah when we start talking about Lightbringer / Ragnarok sillyness. Offering + Genjiglove With LB / Rag pretty much turned any single character into an engine of destruction. Shadow didn't really get any super broken weapons, but he was still a very fast character and almost always guaranteed to go first in any fight. The other cheesyness would be Terra with Offering + Economizer at 99 Magic. Putting out 30K in a single turn pretty much guaranteed you'd win the fight.

My favorite character's were Celes and for some reason Cyan. Cyan had **** stats and his ability took entirely too long to user, but he looked cool, that and his music was awesome. Celes was well, nuff said.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#116 Jul 21 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, you have to sacrafice weapons better suited on other characters to get that kind of performance.


Quote:
Well yeah when we start talking about Lightbringer / Ragnarok sillyness. Offering + Genjiglove With LB / Rag pretty much turned any single character into an engine of destruction.


I don't know if they changed it in the newer versions or not, but Illumina/Ragnarok were actually much weaker when paired with the Offering, because the MP Critical would never proc with Offering, nor would the Pearl/Flare spells.

What I was actually referring to was the Atma Weapon, which is by far the best weapon in the game because the damage was based solely on one variable: current HP. It completely ignored the damage spread from Offering, as well as enemy Defense. 9999 HP = 40,000 damage against any target in the game.

As for being better suited for other characters, I'll argue that it's really best suited to Locke, as all of the other characters that can equip it have much better innate skills than Steal/Mug.. Celes/Terra have better magic stats, Edgar has Tools, etc.

Shadow/Sabin/Cyan are great for the early/midgame, but the only way they retain that usefulness is if you intentionally keep your levels low until you gain access to Odin/Crusader for Vigor+2 level up bonus, and max them out solo in the Tyrannosaur forest. It's long and tedious, but you can pump them up enough to deal 80k with Genji/Offering and their respective best weapons by LV99.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#117 Jul 22 2011 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Eh, you have to sacrafice weapons better suited on other characters to get that kind of performance.


Quote:
Well yeah when we start talking about Lightbringer / Ragnarok sillyness. Offering + Genjiglove With LB / Rag pretty much turned any single character into an engine of destruction.


I don't know if they changed it in the newer versions or not, but Illumina/Ragnarok were actually much weaker when paired with the Offering, because the MP Critical would never proc with Offering, nor would the Pearl/Flare spells.

What I was actually referring to was the Atma Weapon, which is by far the best weapon in the game because the damage was based solely on one variable: current HP. It completely ignored the damage spread from Offering, as well as enemy Defense. 9999 HP = 40,000 damage against any target in the game.

As for being better suited for other characters, I'll argue that it's really best suited to Locke, as all of the other characters that can equip it have much better innate skills than Steal/Mug.. Celes/Terra have better magic stats, Edgar has Tools, etc.

Shadow/Sabin/Cyan are great for the early/midgame, but the only way they retain that usefulness is if you intentionally keep your levels low until you gain access to Odin/Crusader for Vigor+2 level up bonus, and max them out solo in the Tyrannosaur forest. It's long and tedious, but you can pump them up enough to deal 80k with Genji/Offering and their respective best weapons by LV99.


I can dispute the Atma Weapon not being effected by offering because it most definitely was. Offering is attack rounds x 4 but damage divided by 2. The only weapon not affected by offering was Fixed Dice. And the add effects of pearl most definitely proced with offering, all add effects would proc. One of the Auction House Battle tricks was to put two ID weapons on Shadow with Offering and Genji glove. He would have eight chances to proc ID, made most battles a piece of cake provided the monster wasn't immune to Instant Death.

Celes's stats were balanced through out the game with it being heavy on Vigor and Magic, depending on the Esper's you used is how she turned out end game.

Lol are we really discussing usefulness of super character builds in a game where any single character can become a god if you build them for it? Use who you preferred to.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#118 Jul 22 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I can dispute the Atma Weapon not being effected by offering because it most definitely was. Offering is attack rounds x 4 but damage divided by 2. The only weapon not affected by offering was Fixed Dice. And the add effects of pearl most definitely proced with offering, all add effects would proc.


Really? I'm gonna have to dust off the SNES then, it's been a long time since I played but... I do remember for certain that MP Critical doesn't proc with Offering, though. Highly doubtful that Atma Weapon is subject to Offering damage spread as well... but yeah, I could just be crazy on added effects not proccing. Curious though, which version are you playing?
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#119 Jul 22 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Really? I'm gonna have to dust off the SNES then, it's been a long time since I played but... I do remember for certain that MP Critical doesn't proc with Offering, though. Highly doubtful that Atma Weapon is subject to Offering damage spread as well... but yeah, I could just be crazy on added effects not proccing. Curious though, which version are you playing?



I've played Anthology and Original SNES version, and MP Critical do work on offering, just not at as high of a rate (at least visually.)

Atma Weapon is most DEFINITELY subject to Damage Spread problems from Offering. It's been a looong time since I played that game though, I though there was a work around for that.
#120 Jul 22 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Default
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On the original SNES, the PSX and the GBA (I have all three) versions the Atma weapon's damage is divided by 2 when using Offering. I don't know if the Runic Sword would proc, as I never used it with offering but I do know that Pearl / Flare would proc, OgreNix would proc, the Flame/Thunder/Ice weapons could proc and all the Instant Death attacks could proc.

My one issue with Offering is that you can't target it, it randomly hits everything on the screen. The damage is thus unevenly distributed and you tend to leave a few enemies alive after your through. I prefer Sabin's Godhand + Dragon Claw with Hero's ring at 99 Vigor dealing over 8K per hit as you can target it at specific enemies and guarantee their death. I'm all about getting the fight over with in one turn before the enemies have a chance to attack. Later in the GBA version there are some special dungeons and their crazy hard enemies. The monsters and the Super boss inflict a variety of status ailments that can make battles pretty tough, they also hit you with really powerful attacks. Due to this you tend to want to equip shields and other defensive gear over a purely offensive spam set. I'm a huge fan of Gengi Gloves but I had to restrict them to Sabin, Shadow and Locke only when I did those dungeons. Paladins Shield + Light Bringer was amazing combo, also later you get weapons that are character specific (Save the Queen is Celes's) and those are usually pretty good.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#121 Jul 22 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Anyhow back to the OP.

I really do hope SE introduces stat based enfeebles like Attack Down / Defense Down / Magic Attack Down / Magic Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down, and so forth. I've stated it before that these are already present in the game in various forms and that they would fit in perfectly with RDM's style. Provided they ensure the big HNM's are not made immune to them and that they have full effect. Ash and trash mob's don't need enfeebled but the crazy psycho four armed Samurai looking thing definitely should be.

I would also like it if we could cast our self-target buffs on other people. We really should of got a JA that allows us to AOE the next enhancing magic, along with a JA that makes the next enfeeble AOE. Fast hitting jobs like MNK, THF, NIN, BLU and ourselves can really benefit from a potent enspell effect. Something on the order of 30~40 damage per hit isn't unreasonable in today's big numbers gameplay. SE has a chance to really run with this here and create a rather unique class, provided they do it right.

Melee wise, I'd personally prefer it if we had access to better sword WS's. Although soon it won't effect me as I'll be finishing my lv85 Almace, others shouldn't have to do that for a decent WS option. Not much else needs to be done in this regard, damage output is no longer a big part of the game, it's all about utility now.

Really I just want to see more utility created, however SE does it I don't really care. Just don't make it gimmicky nor a one-trick-pony (CSS), the old hat RDM's stopped playing the because it became too gimmicky and bland, no need to introduce more.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#122 Jul 22 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:

I really do hope SE introduces stat based enfeebles like Attack Down / Defense Down / Magic Attack Down / Magic Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down, and so forth...

I would also like it if we could cast our self-target buffs on other people...

Melee wise, I'd personally prefer it if we had access to better sword WS's...



All very good points. More melee capabilities especially. Also wouldn't mind a haste II... I mean refresh II is the only buff we get that someone subbing rdm can't use, I'd like to see another few spells like that.
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#123 Jul 22 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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All very good points. More melee capabilities especially. Also wouldn't mind a haste II... I mean refresh II is the only buff we get that someone subbing rdm can't use, I'd like to see another few spells like that.


In terms of Melee capability, I'd rather see some new physical buffs that we could both use for ourselves as well as give to others. Haste II is kinda cliche but I'd take it.

I'm more interested in buffs such as Brave, Faith, and other like buffs that would be separate from the usual haste/refresh spam.

Casting our buffs on others aside from that would only really work if we could get the calculations on Enspell II's were fixed for dual wielders so it wouldn't conflict with Sambas, or a change in calculations so we wouldn't be in direct contrast.

On the debuff end I'd like to see more of the delay tactics like Addle's effect, but specifically applied to TP effects, as well as a spell that, on random chance, cause the monster to inflict damage upon itself instead (Confusion.) These things would be boons for specific fights especially on HNM mobs.

#124 Jul 22 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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While I think we settled on calling Discord on the official board, I'd still want to see a "Level Down" spell that basically minimizes all stats as well as well as having an effect in the level correction portion. As perhaps a fun element to help curb the redundancy of multiple RDMs, this spell could stack like DNC steps do, up to 5 levels with 5 casts, and maybe an MB being 2-3 levels instead of 1. Overall, it's something you want to maintain and for some encounters, a mob being 5 levels lower might mean it loses access to a given TP move.
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#125 Jul 22 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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a mob being 5 levels lower might mean it loses access to a given TP move.


I doubt this will be the case, but what it certainly will lose is the damage bonuses it gains from said levels.
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#126 Jul 22 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Well, we've seen mobs that level up and gain TP moves as a result. Sure, some reverse engineering and future foresight might be required, but it's basically a musing.
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