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#202 Jul 09 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Look at BRD. People realized that BRD had some tools that optimized BRD to pull in TP Burns.


Um BRD was always a good puller. The only issue that plauged BRD was that it had to compete with the maybe 1 open party slot of parties back in the day. RDM or BRD/WHM, WHM and BLM, THF, TANK Distortion WS DD. When BLM and WHM were dropped because SE significantly lowered the party requirements for mobs and made WHM overkill, and BLM in large part useless, this gave BRD its default spot in ToAU.

(have you only been playing since ToAU if so this would explain your clear misunderstanding about a lot of things, in particular concerning RDM).

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 9:24am by rdmcandie


Do you not understand anything? I didn't say BRD wasn't a good puller, I'm telling you that people optimized it in TP Burns. Once again, if you're not differentiating between being the "master" of something and being able to accomplish something, then you're wasting my time.


I've been playing since before CoP and I can say that I didn't see as many bards (if any) pulling till ToAU. That isn't to say that they couldn't do it prior to that, but you would be in denial if you believe THFs weren't desired to pull. Also, if I'm not mistaken, prior to Elegy, brds don't and/or shouldn't pull which is at level 59.

The thing is that brds weren't designed to be pullers, people just made it work.

Lyltai wrote:
Yes, please, just shut the @#%^ up already with your arbitrary titles and rules already, nobody @#%^ing cares, seriously. @#%^. I can't believe I wasted this much time arguing with you already; truly, a world-class troll. And before you decide to contest that, be aware that the alternative is retard, so choose carefully.


Just simply say that you don't differentiate the two. It's simply reality. You can label it arbitrary if you want, but unless you believe that SE didn't design jobs with a purpose or a role, then you're wrong. Plain and simple. So, you can choose very carefully.

RCD wrote:
No even trolls know what they are taking about, they just argue theopposite side to troll. Alma isn't a troll because Alma seldom understands the words he uses let alone what others use. **** take a trip to the asylum, it usually ends with 18 people all telling alma he is wrong and here is why, an he will just stamp his foot and offer up another terrible analogy.

He doesn't even shut up if you agree with him.


You're full of ish- I've countered numerous of your claims and you only ignored them, not because you think they're stupid, but because you have not counter.

You two claim that my definitions are "wrong", yet have failed to provide a more accurate definition.

As I presented to Lyltai;

Do you or do you not believe SE designed jobs with a specific role and purpose, generally something unique?

If your answer is no, then you're an idiot in denial.

If your answer is yes, then please explain to me in your own words what makes a job "designed" for a certain purpose as compared to another job who just so happens to be able to do the same? For example a WHM/SCH vs WAR/WHM. According to your logic, there isn't a difference between the two if the latter can get the job done.


Lylthia wrote:

Well, the way I see it, if I made a list of every single NM I could possibly solo on RDM, and then cross-referenced a similar list for each of the other 19 jobs, I would have to level more than one job to be able to solo as many NMs as RDM can(and gear them beyond Perle/Aurore/Teal)


That only supports the fact that RDM is a "Jack of All Trades, Master of none". RDM can pull off more kills than any other job, but not necessarily as efficient. That's exactly what that title means.

Lylthia wrote:
Tired of this sh*t. Almace kicks the everlasting **** out of, well, pretty much every melee boost we've ever received, ever.


You knew that was stupid before you even wrote it down. Just like with the elemental staffs, a RDM shouldn't have to have a SPECIFIC weapon to do something it's "supposed to do". I don't have to do jack ish (not literally) with my WHM to continue to be the best healer in the game, like wise with BLM and elemental magic. Equipment is supposed to ENHANCE your gameplay, not make it the standard.

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Almalieque wrote:

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#203 Jul 09 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
Look at BRD. People realized that BRD had some tools that optimized BRD to pull in TP Burns.


Um BRD was always a good puller. The only issue that plauged BRD was that it had to compete with the maybe 1 open party slot of parties back in the day. RDM or BRD/WHM, WHM and BLM, THF, TANK Distortion WS DD. When BLM and WHM were dropped because SE significantly lowered the party requirements for mobs and made WHM overkill, and BLM in large part useless, this gave BRD its default spot in ToAU.

(have you only been playing since ToAU if so this would explain your clear misunderstanding about a lot of things, in particular concerning RDM).

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 9:24am by rdmcandie


Do you not understand anything? I didn't say BRD wasn't a good puller, I'm telling you that people optimized it in TP Burns. Once again, if you're not differentiating between being the "master" of something and being able to accomplish something, then you're wasting my time.

You keep screaming about how being the best at something doesn't count as being the best at something. Stop it.


Almalieque wrote:

I've been playing since before CoP and I can say that I didn't see as many bards (if any) pulling till ToAU. That isn't to say that they couldn't do it prior to that, but you would be in denial if you believe THFs weren't desired to pull. Also, if I'm not mistaken, prior to Elegy, brds don't and/or shouldn't pull which is at level 59.

The thing is that brds weren't designed to be pullers, people just made it work.


It's called a shift in the metagame.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 6:29pm by cidbahamut
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#204 Jul 09 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyltia wrote:
And here is the other problem; you expect RDM, the jack of all trades and all that bullsh*t, the generalist, to be able to deal meaningful melee damage right out of the box, with little-to-no investment in gear. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, putting some effort into my character and seeing concrete (and with Almace, amazing) results, is immensely gratifying and pretty much 99% of the reason I play this game in the first place.


Wrong, just wrong. You're comparing two extremes. RDM has one tier below BLM in elemental spells and 2 (was 1) tire cure spells under WHM. I'm an advocate of RDM melee, but the amount of work necessary to make it worthwhile, FAR exceeds the amount of work necessary in the white and black magic arenas. More traits and abilities like composure would enhance RDM melee without breaking it. The fact that RDM doesn't have every sword weapon skill or an A skill for that matter, pushes it closer to the generalist area.

That isn't the problem. RDM doesn't need an A+ or any of that jazz nor should it have to have a specific weapon to melee as a generalist. If I wanted to deal uber damage, I would pick another job.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#205 Jul 09 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Cid wrote:
You keep screaming about how being the best at something doesn't count as being the best at something. Stop it.


I don't recall ever saying that.

Cid wrote:

It's called a shift in the metagame.


And that's relevant how? How did that affect the DESIGN of Bard? Weren't those abilities out BEFORE ToAU? Did SE do an overhaul change on BRD?

Edit: If you want to make relevance of the shift in the metagame, it favors my argument.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 12:37am by Almalieque

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 12:38am by Almalieque
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#206 Jul 09 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Cid wrote:
You keep screaming about how being the best at something doesn't count as being the best at something. Stop it.


I don't recall ever saying that.

That has been the entire crux of your argument for the entire thread.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#207 Jul 09 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Cid wrote:
You keep screaming about how being the best at something doesn't count as being the best at something. Stop it.


I don't recall ever saying that.

That has been the entire crux of your argument for the entire thread.


Nope, that's a failure on your reading comprehension.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#208 Jul 09 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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ou knew that was stupid before you even wrote it down. Just like with the elemental staffs, a RDM shouldn't have to have a SPECIFIC weapon to do something it's "supposed to do". I don't have to do jack ish (not literally) with my WHM to continue to be the best healer in the game, like wise with BLM and elemental magic. Equipment is supposed to ENHANCE your gameplay, not make it the standard.


RDM can melee just fine without an Almace, just like it can nuke just fine without magian staves; the difference isn't between ability, it's quality. If you think RDM should be able to achieve the DPS of an Almace by default, without gear... but there's no 'if,' you clearly believe this should be the case. It is @#%^ing unreal how clueless you are about this game and how it works. You're set to ~Ignore effective immediately; as RCD so aptly put it, way too much stupid for me.

Don't you think it's rather telling that you feel the best use of your sig is quoting times where people agree with you, and they are completely amazed by it?

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 6:44pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#209 Jul 09 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel like I'm arguing with a very belligerent wall.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#210 Jul 09 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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lylita wrote:

Yeah man he's a joke, Shell V, Barstone, and a serviceable MDT set and you can't lose. Good luck!


Ya I did some reading on him seemed easy, but wanted to double check, I havent done much abyssea solo, mostly just PI NM's in the first three zones and Abyssea VNM's. Glad to know he is as weak as Wiki says he is. (i dont have much faith in that site.)

Seriha wrote:
Arguably we're the worst job on the weapon for lack of native traits and higher end gear

Glad to see you are still oblivious to the fact that RDM natively has the best ability with a sword, besides the fact that SE refuses to give us certain weaponskills, a RDM should out melee DoT a BLU handily and a PLD with above average gear. The only 2 jobs that can reliably out damage us with Melee damage via sword are WAR and DRK.

Quote:
It's far and away the best melee weapon you are going to see for a long, long time; and probably ever; and you, as a self-professed proponent of RDM melee, call it a 'toy'? @#%^ man, see above.


The Joyeuse would like to have a word it is statistically still RDM's 2nd best sword melee option (excluding Emp, Mythic, Dyna) the only weapon that is better than it currently in that regard is the 2-4 Mag trial weapon, and that is only by 1-2% and weighs heavily on the ability to WS at exactly 100% (+/- one extra hit.) It is the best weapon for us that is true, but the Joytoy is several years old and has always been a go to RDM weaponskill. (and if SE ever gets rid of EX weapon the EMP weapon might be outshone by Vorpal Blade.)

Alma wrote:

I've been playing since before CoP and I can say that I didn't see as many bards (if any) pulling till ToAU. That isn't to say that they couldn't do it prior to that, but you would be in denial if you believe THFs weren't desired to pull. Also, if I'm not mistaken, prior to Elegy, brds don't and/or shouldn't pull which is at level 59.


20K/hr as a BRD puller in numerous 37-42 Colibri parties begs to differ. BRD has always been an excellent puller, if you didn't utilize this function before ToAU then that is your loss. But BRD has always been clutch, **** its been the best puller in the game since /NIN.

Your game knowledge/concept is severely flawed. I am actually quite surprised you are even defending RDM utility, since you seem to be very on top of the utility of other jobs. RDM is next to useless in abyssea. Outsie of abyssea its actually pretty decent.

Now let me clarify that since you can't seem to understand the difference between mostly/completely practically/ultimately. RDM is Mostly useless in abyssea, there are 4 jobs that share its Club/Staff/Sword ability, and 3 jobs that share its Club/Staff/Dagger (probably more TBH but I only though of WAR/DRK/BLU/PLD/DNC/THF/NIN). 2 Jobs share its Yellow (BLM/SCH) and severa jobs match its blue. '

It does uses in abyssea, I don't share the same outlook as Lylita on its solo ability as much of the solo's RDM has been relinquished too are pinning tactics which any Ranged attack/Magic casting job can take advantage of.

Now as for the practically portion of you misunderstanding, the only real relevant portion of nonabyssea is void watch pretty much everything else can be solo'd or lowmanned. RDM is no better than a NIN/RDM in 90% of nonabyssea content.

If you can't see this you are purposefully blinding yourself. But like I said to hyrist, enjoy soloing your 5-6 exclusive nm's, and I hope you are happy leeching off your friend's others work.







Edited, Jul 9th 2011 7:05pm by rdmcandie
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#211 Jul 09 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Default
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The Joyeuse would like to have a word it is statistically still RDM's 2nd best sword melee option (excluding Emp, Mythic, Dyna) the only weapon that is better than it currently in that regard is the 2-4 Mag trial weapon, and that is only by 1-2% and weighs heavily on the ability to WS at exactly 100% (+/- one extra hit.) It is the best weapon for us that is true, but the Joytoy is several years old and has always been a go to RDM weaponskill. (and if SE ever gets rid of EX weaponskills the EMP weapon might be outshone by Vorpal Blade.)


Not that I doubt ya, I'm sure you mathed it out, but OA2~4 really edges out Joyeuse? Man, I thought they were all just terribad. Vorpal's never going to touch Almace though; you'd have to be getting some pretty ridic numbers to beat CDC+Aftermath, and CDC's no Death Blossom.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#212 Jul 09 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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The Joyeuse would like to have a word it is statistically still RDM's 2nd best sword melee option (excluding Emp, Mythic, Dyna) the only weapon that is better than it currently in that regard is the 2-4 Mag trial weapon, and that is only by 1-2% and weighs heavily on the ability to WS at exactly 100% (+/- one extra hit.) It is the best weapon for us that is true, but the Joytoy is several years old and has always been a go to RDM weaponskill. (and if SE ever gets rid of EX weaponskills the EMP weapon might be outshone by Vorpal Blade.)


Not that I doubt ya, I'm sure you mathed it out, but OA2~4 really edges out Joyeuse? Man, I thought they were all just terribad. Vorpal's never going to touch Almace though; you'd have to be getting some pretty ridic numbers to beat CDC+Aftermath, and CDC's no Death Blossom.


Ya I mathed it out and 2 big things affect the Joyeuse, it has a larger damage, and a much lower delay. The DoT on the Joyeuse makes up for the 2-4's slightly higher rate of attack (the Joy benefits more from DA/TA/QA then the Kahnda does). The only way the 2-4 weapon wins out is if you use your TP at WS time 100% of the time, 1 missed WS puts the Joyeuse in front (which is why you will never see me working on a non Emp Magian sword.)

From what Ive seen the EMP weapon loses a lot of steam outside abyssea. Ive seen PLD only capable of hitting about 1.5K on average. Considering Ive hit 1.2K (on neutral mobs) with the Blau and Evis, I can see Vorpal giving it a good run. Maybe not beating it but def on the same page.


(and just for clarification, unless RDM is /WAR using a DA sword from magians, the 2-4 is the best choice for RDM, since it can't get to 50% DA without obviously putting Joy at 75%)

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 7:16pm by rdmcandie
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#213 Jul 09 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah CDC definitely isn't nearly as monstrous outside Abyssea, but when you add in +30~50% to your melee DoT before Enspells (less if Dual-Wielding), it becomes a lot harder to beat with conventional weapons.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#214 Jul 09 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
In other words, you people don't give a sh*t about actually gaining improvements to your gear, all you really want is a direct acknowledgment from SE that they really meant for RDM to be a super-awesome melee class from the beginning, our bad guys, we suck and you were totally right.


Acknowledgement and gear improvement aren't mutually exclusive. Gear alone isn't going to change the community perception without it being really, really good. While we stretch a bit just to cap haste in the TP phase, other jobs are easily clearing that while building on DA, TA, more ATK, crit, STP, and so on. So, the job that's been behind to begin with is falling even more behind. Ya know, the reason people lol at our melee is because stats directly reflect our output. This is nothing no amount of personal skill can overcome.

Quote:
Although on the whole I kinda see why y'all are so **** off all the time; holding your breath for this long, and by my calculations, forever, I'd be **** too.


Confused might be more appropriate at times, especially when SE says one thing, but does the opposite.

Quote:
It's far and away the best melee weapon you are going to see for a long, long time; and probably ever; and you, as a self-professed proponent of RDM melee, call it a 'toy'? @#%^ man, see above.


No job should ever be reliant on a single piece of gear to do what it's supposed to. Almace is the new Joyeuse, sure, but you're not kidding anyone into believing this sh*t just falls into your lap and you'll pick up enough random, competent PUGs willing to fight over 1-2 +2 items on the Bri phase, or tolerate Guku's Aery and the randomness of gold boxes with any amount of expediency.

Quote:
And... how in the **** do you figure that the Estoqueur+2 set REALLY doesn't help? You can now keep Composure up full time for the melee accuracy buff, and reduce your buff cycles by half! The biggest complaint I see in the RDM melee whining threads is that RDM can't compete in melee DPS because they're expected to spend so much time casting buffs; I fail to see how reducing that workload by almost 50% is REALLY not helping. I think SE listened and gave you exactly what you wanted; you just weren't paying attention, or haven't figured it out yet.


This is another zero to hero case. If you're random Joe Blow, odds are you're not rocking full +2. Extending the duration of Enhancing Magic is something I have been a proponent for yes, but SE pulled their traditional bait and switch by making Composure self-only while requiring a set and an accessory to still not quite match up. You know what would've been awesome? If the tripled duration worked on everyone from 50+ and Composure's augments were 5% Haste per piece. At least all that MACC, which is absent on our current "best" set up, would help with the resist rates on Enspells on harder prey.

Quote:
And here is the other problem; you expect RDM, the jack of all trades and all that bullsh*t, the generalist, to be able to deal meaningful melee damage right out of the box, with little-to-no investment in gear. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, putting some effort into my character and seeing concrete (and with Almace, amazing) results, is immensely gratifying and pretty much 99% of the reason I play this game in the first place.


You're the one sitting here spouting the jack bullsh*t. There's a reason why I've started the "...suck at them all!" line. Once endgame moves beyond Abyssea, we'll be back to our MP dependent selves. The nuking game will fall back as part of why nobody ever invited BLMs for things. Our healing game will forever be sub-par to WHMs, and rightfully so. You assume I'm against working for gear, but the reality is I'm against such drastic extremes in performance thanks to a single weapon. This, combined with my earlier point on gear progression, are only a few roadblocks we've been stuck behind since before the cap increases even began.

Quote:
Completely, totally, 100% irrelevant. For one, if you're doing Empyreans in a linkshell, you are being used and abused, no question at all. Second, if your group doesn't want to help you get the Empyrean of your choice in return for helping them with the Empyrean of their choice, they don't sound like very good people to me. I sure as **** didn't have to do any explaining for my Hvergelmir; I said "Hey, I wanna do Hvergelmir next" and my partner said "Word." My advice is find 1-2 good friends who you enjoy playing with, kick the Linkshells and 'Groups' to the curb, and do the **** thing. You'll all be a lot happier, and there's 100% less drama.


While I get the "less mouths to feed" sentiment, I don't think burning bridges is the thing to be doing with the game still being in a transitional phase. Overall, I play expecting everyone to be selfish on some level, having their own goals to chase and whatnot. Even within linkshells, you'll have little cliques that form within, and they'll of course have varying degrees of progress. If you're not one of those lucky ones, or are like me and play on a random schedule where I might be on from 7am-12pm one day, then 8pm-12am the next, you start facing complications in people thinking you're deserving of something since you might not always be around when they usually are. So yes, while I could "kick them to the curb" as it were, this problem still extends to the friend's list where uniting enough bodies at any given moment, without them being busy with their own goals, would take a literal act of god.

So, while the tired line of a MNK and WHM duoing everything might work, what's the point of a RDM chasing an Almace if they're always going to wind up being on MNK or WHM to do anything? That's when the toy status comes into play, because endlessly farming scrub mobs on your own is not a fate I deem worthy of an MMO subscription, and until people actually want RDMs in Abyssea, again, things like the GA, H2H, and Katana are going to be priority for the masses. Fighting the bandwagon gets old after a while, and I have no delusion that if I put my flag up RDM/NIN, I'd be asked to heal an alliance many times before just being okay with DDing. And why is that? Well, it might just be SE hasn't doesn't something right, but that's just me.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 8:04pm by Seriha
#215 Jul 09 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
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Acknowledgement and gear improvement aren't mutually exclusive. Gear alone isn't going to change the community perception without it being really, really good. While we stretch a bit just to cap haste in the TP phase, other jobs are easily clearing that while building on DA, TA, more ATK, crit, STP, and so on. So, the job that's been behind to begin with is falling even more behind. Ya know, the reason people lol at our melee is because stats directly reflect our output. This is nothing no amount of personal skill can overcome.


It's all about balance; those jobs that are easily clearing gear haste and adding all those nice stats are melee DDs; they can't cure, can't nuke, etc. There has to be a tradeoff somewhere for the versatility, and right there it is, just like RDM doesn't get access to as much Cure Potency as WHM does, or as much MAB gear as BLM does. RDM shouldn't be able to compete with DD jobs on their own terms, it would be horribly unbalanced. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand, or why anyone thinks it should be any other way.

Quote:
No job should ever be reliant on a single piece of gear to do what it's supposed to. Almace is the new Joyeuse, sure, but you're not kidding anyone into believing this sh*t just falls into your lap and you'll pick up enough random, competent PUGs willing to fight over 1-2 +2 items on the Bri phase, or tolerate Guku's Aery and the randomness of gold boxes with any amount of expediency.


"To do what it's supposed to" ? You think every Teal-wearing RDM should be able to (out)match the output of a well-geared DD job? Again, baffling.

As for the latter part, I most certainly do believe it, because it is exactly how I made my Kannagi85. Sure, you pick up retards, it's one of the hazards, but you are taking it to the opposite extreme and making it sound impossible.

As for Guku's Aery? Let me break this down for ya: Sobek now drops a total of up to 6 +2 items per kill, of 4 varieties. Lock skins for yourself, and look for 5 members in town; put 2 on the primary drop, and 1 on each sub drop. Form a party of NIN WAR THF WHM BLM/BRD BLU, substituting RDM/WHM for the WHM if you have none of these jobs. With 6 people out trying to claim every window, sure, you're going to miss some, but you ARE going to claim, you ARE going to make Sobek sets, and you ARE going to get Skins and finish if you keep at it. I'm not trying to play down the competition, because yeah, it sucks; but by bringing 6 heads of your own, you will make progress, and it will get done. Like I said previously, most RDMs spent much, much more time waiting for their D.Chapeaus than they would spend on making an Almace, if not for people like you moaning about how impossible it is and discouraging them.

Quote:
This is another zero to hero case. If you're random Joe Blow, odds are you're not rocking full +2. Extending the duration of Enhancing Magic is something I have been a proponent for yes, but SE pulled their traditional bait and switch by making Composure self-only while requiring a set and an accessory to still not quite match up. You know what would've been awesome? If the tripled duration worked on everyone from 50+ and Composure's augments were 5% Haste per piece. At least all that MACC, which is absent on our current "best" set up, would help with the resist rates on Enspells on harder prey.


Again, what's your problem with having to work for it? **** you make it sound like farming +2s is hard. Nothing in Abyssea is hard, remember? Easymode? **** I dread farming +1s much, much more than +2s, just because of how stupid random seal drops are; at least with +2s, you know exactly what to target for what you want, and are guaranteed to make progress on it with each kill. You just want everything handed to you because you think you deserve it for having played what you deem a broken job for so long.

And what the **** seriously? You really want something as mundane as capped gear haste while composure is active, on a set of gear that offers absolutely nothing to melee? At least the haste gear we currently have to wear to cap has other melee stats on it; what you're asking for would be a downgrade! You can't see me, but rest assured, there's copious facepalming happening over here.

Quote:
You're the one sitting here spouting the jack bullsh*t. There's a reason why I've started the "...suck at them all!" line. Once endgame moves beyond Abyssea, we'll be back to our MP dependent selves. The nuking game will fall back as part of why nobody ever invited BLMs for things. Our healing game will forever be sub-par to WHMs, and rightfully so


You are aware that our total, in-house Refresh total has risen from 5/tick to 12/tick, even more with Sanction, Salvage, whatever? That's 240+ MP per minute, or, assuming merited Convert timer, 2000 MP from Refresh/gear over the course of a Convert cycle (lower depending on casting, of course). So, add in that Convert for another 1000 MP at the very least, and that's 3000MP over 500 seconds you have to spend before you start having to take a knee. Yeah, MP isn't really an issue anymore. BLM is and has always been useful; it ain't ToAU anymore in case you haven't kept up. WHM is the best healer, sure, but RDM can push their CureIVs into the 500+ range pretty easily, which isn't exactly horrible when everyone's back to sane HP counts.

Quote:
You assume I'm against working for gear, but the reality is I'm against such drastic extremes in performance thanks to a single weapon.


Yeah, you're totally right, the most powerful sword RDM can use should definitely be a marginal, incremental step up from the Joyeuse, especially when they give it a fancy name and put it in the same category as Relics and Mythics.

Quote:
So, while the tired line of a MNK and WHM duoing everything might work, what's the point of a RDM chasing an Almace if they're always going to wind up being on MNK or WHM to do anything? That's when the toy status comes into play, because endlessly farming scrub mobs on your own is not a fate I deem worthy of an MMO subscription, and until people actually want RDMs in Abyssea, again, things like the GA, H2H, and Katana are going to be priority for the masses.


I'm so sick and tired of hearing the MNK+WHM thing, seriously. it's NIN+WHM. NIN tanks just as well as MNK can, deals comparable damage, and gives you red procs instead of blue procs, which are sooooooooooo much more useful than blue procs. You want a piece of gear? Sure, proc blue, get drop, done. Want to fight something better than freespawns or T1 NMs? Yeah, MNK not so good; bring a NIN.

Do you honestly think we went through the trouble of making Almace, Hvergelmir, Armageddon, and are bothering with Gandiva, Darudaubla, and Ghorn just so we'd have toys to play with? .....No, we understand that Abyssea is over, and right now is the eye of the storm, between the midgame that was Abyssea and the fast-approaching endgame that'll come with the 99 cap. We're using this time to prepare ourselves for that endgame, while you seem to be choosing to come up with every reason possible not to, and waste it. It's your subscription man, but... you'll be better served with one eye on the Abyssea grindstone and the other to the future, where these things you're **** about really will become useful.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#216 Jul 09 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Almace or not, the RDM of now will never be wanted to swing at things in the "new endgame" without improvements. See age old arguments of damage worth, TP feed, and all the "role" crap. By all means, make assumptions about me and what I do. Meanwhile, I haven't turned a deaf ear to community perception or things like numbers that, while best case scenarios are all vacuum tube fun, don't exactly make things better for us even when conditions diminish and real-game application kicks in.

As for what's lost over current equipment if AF3's set bonus worked as I mentioned? Some -movement and the few points of ATK dusk offers. I'm not sold on the new pants being better than ASA with 7 ACC/3 Haste due to the -ACC and actually thinking ahead to life without Razed Ruin. Nothing I can do if you wanna flip your sh*t over the HP/MP from Turban and Goliard. Otherwise, accessories would remain unchanged, though the fact our emp neck is HP/MP/MND and earring only MACC/FC doesn't help with the whole lack of clue on SE's end.

So, before you reply dripping with all that condescension again, I'll just save you the effort and tell you you're not going to be changing my mind with anything you say. You might be okay with the FFXI you play with a few friends. The FFXI I try to play with as many people as possible, however, needs a **** of a lot of work, RDM or not.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 10:39pm by Seriha
#217 Jul 09 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Lytlia wrote:
If you think RDM should be able to achieve the DPS of an Almace by default, without gear... but there's no 'if,' you clearly believe this should be the case. It is @#%^ing unreal how clueless you are about this game and how it works. You're set to ~Ignore effective immediately; as RCD so aptly put it, way too much stupid for me.

Don't you think it's rather telling that you feel the best use of your sig is quoting times where people agree with you, and they are completely amazed by it?

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 6:44pm by LyltiaofLakshmi


Almalieque wrote:


That isn't the problem. RDM doesn't need an A+ or any of that jazz nor should it have to have a specific weapon to melee as a generalist. If I wanted to deal uber damage, I would pick another job.


You're a freaking idiot. You don't comprehend half the stuff I tell you, ignore the rest and you have the audacity to insult my intelligence. GTFOWTBS. Simply calling me names aint gonna cut it. You haven't shown or proven anything.

That's the reason why my sig is what it is. I go against the grain, but I support what I say and people refuse to believe that their thoughts are wrong. I openly admit to when I'm wrong and I don't care, it's part of learning. But when people like you ignore comments, questions and overall counter points just to continue saying the same thing, I don't think for a second that I'm wrong. If you were to actually address my points as stated, then I would open myself up to that possibility.

Other posters admit to going against anything I say, so I find the times when they do agree with me and quote it.

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
ou knew that was stupid before you even wrote it down. Just like with the elemental staffs, a RDM shouldn't have to have a SPECIFIC weapon to do something it's "supposed to do". I don't have to do jack ish (not literally) with my WHM to continue to be the best healer in the game, like wise with BLM and elemental magic. Equipment is supposed to ENHANCE your gameplay, not make it the standard.


RDM can melee just fine without an Almace, just like it can nuke just fine without magian staves; the difference isn't between ability, it's quality.


I'm starting to think you're a troll, because I refuse to think someone can be this slow. I told you that I am for RDM melee. I meleed my entire way to 90. I know RDM can melee fine without an Almace. You were the one who claimed that Almace was one of the greatest melee boosts to RDM melee. That's the problem. If Almace is considered one of the greatest RDM boosts, then SE has overlooked some melee things up to that point.

Cid wrote:
I feel like I'm arguing with a very belligerent wall.


Well learn to read then.

RCD wrote:
20K/hr as a BRD puller in numerous 37-42 Colibri parties begs to differ. BRD has always been an excellent puller, if you didn't utilize this function before ToAU then that is your loss. But BRD has always been clutch, **** its been the best puller in the game since /NIN.


So back in the day when people were doing IT++ only, brds were pulling? Dude, STFU. No. Did colibris not come out till ToAU? I don't proclaim to be the greatest FFXI knowledge person, but anyone who played in parties can see how the party dynamics changed. As a RDM, I was in all of them.

RCD wrote:
Outsie of abyssea its actually pretty decent.


Contradict much? Your **** poor attempt of an explanation is just that.

RCD wrote:
If you can't see this you are purposefully blinding yourself.


I've asked you several times to tell me what actually changed? You listed all the **** that you "used to do" that made you worthy and I'm still doing that now, but with much much less hassle and more value.

RDMs complain about not being part of the team, you get refresh. RDMs complain about being a Refresh whore, people started doing TP burns. RDMs complain about being a haste bot, now in abyssea you're neither and you can freely nuke and melee to your heart content with serious buffs unattainable prior. You don't want to be able to play RDM as people fought for for so many years, you want people to be like "RDM or GTFO", which makes you a band wagoner. There's no difference in RDM game play, yet some how they become SOME FORM of useless.

I don't care if you say practically/mostly/almost/likely/kinda-sort-of/barely/on the weekends/etc. You are full of crap. At the end of the day, it has absolutely nothing to do with HOW RDM play, but how many procs it has.

You talk about useless? Like everyone in a LS is necessary? Do you cut off your LS to the bare minimum of jobs necessary to accomplish tasks?

I've countered every single thing you and your "friends" have presented, you all just live in denial, ignoring my relevant comments.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 10:19am by Almalieque
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Almalieque wrote:

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#218 Jul 09 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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73 Replies since I last checked. And it looks like everything that needs to be said, has.

It's really sad, though, that debates in a game comes down to. "I have to stop playing this job because it's not nearly as useful as X job." That, simply, shouldn't even be a discussion, let along something one camp swears up and down as fact.

But the min/max mentality that comes with MMO's is a powerful and infectious one. Worse, it's furthered by the sense of entitlement and selfishness that I've seen flood into internet culture like a plague of filth.

When did this game stop being about enjoyment and adventure for so many? This conversation started as a discussion about race and devolved to elitism about job choice at all, yet the same overarching tone remained the same.

You have a camp, that played only for the idea of 'must have loot as soon as possible', and this grouping of people looks down on any sort of playstyle or attempt to work with a difficult situation instead of 'reroll' as a solution.


RCD, you've convinced me, completely, never to play Dancer as a main, because of the harsh, condescending tone you've taken to my job. (BLM was never a question, I'll never touch it.) I never want to adapt such a vindictive mentality as you and others have just displayed. If that means playing broken jobs, and avoiding those that have better working mechanics, so be it. I'd rather keep humble, and be/help the outcasts who play a job, because they enjoy the job, because they relate to the identity that job represents. Especially when I see the alternative mentality. I waited years for competition issues to ease up in several events before I entered them, because, simply, this game isn't worth the hate and elitism.


It's a completely different playstyle and I acknowledge that.
#219 Jul 09 2011 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, before you reply dripping with all that condescension again, I'll just save you the effort and tell you you're not going to be changing my mind with anything you say.


Fair enough, but know that I've given everything you said fair consideration, and your failure to return such consideration makes you a small, small man.

Oh, and Zelus Tiara and Goading Belt say hi. I'd mention Ninurta's, but yeah, RDM shouldn't need high-end gear to deal high-end damage, etc., right?
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#220 Jul 09 2011 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
So, before you reply dripping with all that condescension again, I'll just save you the effort and tell you you're not going to be changing my mind with anything you say.


Oh, and Zelus Tiara and Goading Belt say hi. I'd mention Ninurta's, but yeah, RDM shouldn't need high-end gear to deal high-end damage, etc., right?



Question: Where do you draw the line between these 'high end gear for high end damage' arguments, and say AF3?

Or if this is too high end for you, what about the Blessed Set? If Red Mage got as much haste as easily WHM did from that set alone, I don't think gear would be part of this argument as much.

But the truth of the matter is, there's some pretty high hurtles there to even get into the 'meh, it's alright' level, not even talking about 'high end' at this point.

Now, if Zelus came with like +12 accuracy or attack, maybe I'd feel a touch less jaded in this regard. But even with this adjustment, the juggling and hurtle-hopping we have to do just on the melee side alone, to try to piece together a decent TP set seems, to me at least, a bit on the high side. (Especially when you consider competition over things like Ninurta's sash... I don't think a player with RDM as their primary group contribution could get that.)

The 'zero to hero' argument here is really prevalent. And I think the reason is that honestly, anything a Red Mage can do for itself to increase their own output, can be given to the party, beaten by party/wide effect, or just don't scale properly.

It's death by degrees here. There's not much synergy in RDM that is unique to them (Even our new Gain Spells are overshadowed by the fact that Boost spells AoE the effects.) I'm fine that we're not any sort of major damage dealer, but without an effective front line utility, gear availablity, etc. I find our melee side to be a touch too difficult for the average player to encourage to begin investing in.



Also, it should be a note, I don't believe most front line Red Mages are looking to deal high end damage, so much as find a Utility that would make their front line presence acceptable. That seems to be the course the majority of the discussions around it on other sites have taken. (Though the ideas are all over the place.)

#221 Jul 09 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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What you're describing is applicable to pretty much every facet of RDM's gear. Like, for nuking, you can wear Teal and be serviceable enough; or you can go the extra mile with Magian DMG staves, Estq.+2, Obis, Novio/Hecate's and make your nukes beastly as hell. MDT? You can cast Shell V and make do, or you can scrounge up some Dark Rings, put together some Coral+1 and cap it. Melee, you can wear Turban, Sentinel's, Goliard, ASA pants, Dusk, Swift, and do alright; or you can make an Almace, get a Ninurta's/Zelus/etc. and wreck sh*t. Stoneskin: cast normally for 350, or max it out with neck/hands/waist/legs. I could go on... For just about every purpose, there's a fairly-easily attainable set that's serviceable, and a set full of high-end gear that really maxes it out.

This is why all the hemming and hawing about RDM melee just gives me a headache; now, moreso than ever, with the right gear it is absolutely possible to put out respectable numbers that noone in their right mind would try to push you to the backline, unless the party's survival was at stake (in which case, yeah, you should totally do that). What I don't like is the attitude of entitlement that the whiners show, that they think they should get these massive buffs so they can just skip the entire gear acquisition step and just break the game. I just don't get it... what fun would the game be if it just handed everything to you? Putting in the effort (and having some of those adventures you mentioned along the way) is just so much more satisfying in the end. And that's twice I've seen 'zero to hero' mentioned; what exactly is the problem with that? I had that exact experience when I leveled NIN; started off underskilled with sh*tty gear, and after months of work (and adventures!), it's now top tier, and it is immensely satisfying.

SE's given you everything you need to be successful at meleeing at this point; start small, work your way up, and once you get to the top, you'll probably see things my way. The journey's the real reward, etc.

Edit: Sorry, didn't answer your questions:

Quote:
Question: Where do you draw the line between these 'high end gear for high end damage' arguments, and say AF3?


To me, AF3+1 is baseline for any job you're serious about, and +2 for any job you consider a main; by which I mean, if you don't have it, getting it should be your #1 priority (Assuming you're not just back from being gone for 3 years, or a new player, etc.) If you can't find a group to farm it with, there are shouts all day long in Jeuno offering the upgrades, usually from people collecting Empyrean junk, and it's pretty easy to start your own besides. Stuff like Zelus, Epona's, Twilight gear, that's the next step up; they drop from some pretty serious NMs, but all you really need to get them is a MNK, a WHM, a THF if you can, and a brew. More out of reach for some than for others, but really, finding that sort of arrangement for Abyssea should be a priority. Ninurta's is from AV so sure, it's a **** to try and get it from him, but on my server at least, there's always somebody trying to make money selling em. Expensive, sure, but you'll probably spend less time farming the gil than trying to build a crack AV-killin' team from scratch.

Empyreans, for the most part, if you can farm +2 items, you can make Empyreans.. hence my lack of sympathy for people who post about finishing their +2 set in the Achievement thread, but complain that they shouldn't have to make an Empyrean. Just silly, really.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 1:18am by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#222 Jul 10 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fair enough, but know that I've given everything you said fair consideration, and your failure to return such consideration makes you a small, small man.


Woman, but an easy enough mistake to make.

As is, I've been fielding these arguments for years. You brought nothing new, hinging either on claims of being overpowered if SE acted one way, with "suck less" on the other. My tolerance has waned, particularly for the latter, and I don't think you can deny you've come here to pick a fight for whatever reason. Lord knows you wouldn't be the first.

Not once have I ever told someone to not chase a CDC-capable weapon if they have the means. I merely scoff at the insinuation Empyrean weapons fall in someone's lap. Like I said earlier, there are roughly 180 CDC-capable weapons per server, a very small percentage of players if you figure the average server is 8000-10000 users. It is not a reasonable expectation that, at any given moment, if you invite some random RDM they'll have CDC. I can't, with a straight face, downplay the social stigma and overall effort required, nevermind the lack of application to mid-level play regardless of the potential to go 30-90 in a single Abyssea party.

So, for something so awesome, you'd think there'd be more of them and the stigma dying down some. The player base is stubborn, though, and quite sheepish with their blanket discriminations (Once something is deemed to suck, it's hard to change minds without drastic attention). We're not there yet. That's why I say SE needs to slap some sense through an aggressive update, not unlike what they did with two-handers, SCH, PUP, or DNC. I'm not asking for CDC without CDC. There is room between it and Vorpal (*grumblegrumbleEXgrumble*), which is naturally a few steps above DB. Heck, I'd be okay with DB being made a crit-WS. While all this melee banter seems damage-centric, I'm not against it offering unique and desired utility even if we'll never parse as good as a "true DD" in the end.

That, however, requires effort from SE. You might be okay with our future of Thunder IV and Gain-DEX/STR/INT, but I don't have faith in the unseen given what we HAVE seen, be it our level progressed stuff or the whatever the T3 merit equivalents wind up being. Regardless, I believe it possible to create a specialty for RDM that avoids all the overlapping that plagued us in the past, be it with WHMs, other RDMs, and melees in general without damning us back to the days of "Why do you need help with that? You're a RDM, go solo it!"

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 2:15am by Seriha
#223 Jul 10 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

RCD, you've convinced me, completely, never to play Dancer as a main, because of the harsh, condescending tone you've taken to my job. (BLM was never a question, I'll never touch it.) I never want to adapt such a vindictive mentality as you and others have just displayed. If that means playing broken jobs, and avoiding those that have better working mechanics, so be it. I'd rather keep humble, and be/help the outcasts who play a job, because they enjoy the job, because they relate to the identity that job represents. Especially when I see the alternative mentality. I waited years for competition issues to ease up in several events before I entered them, because, simply, this game isn't worth the hate and elitism.

So what you're saying is that won't try new jobs because you're afraid you'll enjoy them and possibly have to admit that he's right?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#224 Jul 10 2011 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Woman, but an easy enough mistake to make.


My bad!

Quote:
It is not a reasonable expectation that, at any given moment, if you invite some random RDM they'll have CDC. I can't, with a straight face, downplay the social stigma and overall effort required, nevermind the lack of application to mid-level play regardless of the potential to go 30-90 in a single Abyssea party.


Agreed, which makes being an Almace RDM all the more fun; you get turned down, mention you have Almace, and suddenly minds get changed and you get to do some good against some preconceptions that need reconfiguring. If somebody still isn't convinced... well, their loss; if anything, it's nice to have an early-warning system for people you're not going to enjoy playing with.

As for mid-level play... to each their own, but I had very little interest in it at 75, and what little I had is completely gone now. I just don't see the point in acquiring all sorts of gear that you're just going to outgrow in a few levels, and now that capped events are largely abolished, save for a few useful BCNMs, it's a really hard sell for me. Updates like Grounds of Valor are great for those mid-levels, and I think the dev team's got it right; give us better ways to slog through them faster that are also more entertaining, so we can get to the good stuff at 90.

Quote:
So, for something so awesome, you'd think there'd be more of them and the stigma dying down some. The player base is stubborn, though, and quite sheepish with their blanket discriminations (Once something is deemed to suck, it's hard to change minds without drastic attention). We're not there yet.


I just don't see why you are so overly concerned with what everyone else thinks. If they have an open mind, they'll give you an opportunity to prove them wrong; if they don't, they aren't worth wasting your talents on in the first place. **** 'em.

Quote:
You might be okay with our future of Thunder IV and Gain-DEX/STR/INT, but I don't have faith in the unseen given what we HAVE seen, be it our level progressed stuff or the whatever the T3 merit equivalents wind up being.


I'm sorry but I think you're expecting too much all at once. SE has stated several times in the past that they're pretty much scared of tinkering with RDM, because it's so easy to nudge it over the line into completely broken with seemingly minor changes. I think we're just going to see more of the incremental adjustments that we've been seeing (like Composure, Enhancing duration+, Almace access) that will eventually build to a satisfying conclusion for RDM melee. Gotta keep an open mind though.. everyone thought Composure was gonna suck at the time, that Estq.+2 set had no melee application, and that Almace was going to be another 150mil/year+ weapon, and look where we're at now.

I'm confident that they have a plan and look forward to seeing it come together. If they end up botching the **** out of it, I'll be **** right there alongside you, count on it.


Quote:
I don't think you can deny you've come here to pick a fight for whatever reason.


I just have a very low tolerance for **** whether it's intentional or perceived.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#225 Jul 10 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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It's really sad, though, that debates in a game comes down to. "I have to stop playing this job because it's not nearly as useful as X job." That, simply, shouldn't even be a discussion, let along something one camp swears up and down as fact.


You should go back and read the 73 replies since you last checked then. I dont play RDM in abyssea because it is not time efficient, need extra heals ill BLM/WHM instead of /BRD or /RDM. Need PI's ill go solo them from gold chests on DNC nearly twice as fast as RDM. The issue with abyssea is Time. Sure I suppose you could bring a dozen people and have 4-5 farm time, or I can go out alone cap my azure/pearl on DNC and farm all @#%^ing day. That is with a DNC with relatively gimpy gear, it has less haste then my RDM and the only diff in weapons is using a Yata I got from dom ops with +3% Crit damage and +6 DMG.

Quote:
RCD, you've convinced me, completely, never to play Dancer as a main, because of the harsh, condescending tone you've taken to my job.


Good i don't give a sh*t what you do. It doesn't change the fact that in abyssea DNC and BLM both decrease your time spent by nearly half.


Quote:
So back in the day when people were doing IT++ only, brds were pulling? Dude, STFU. No


Yes, you should have stop being in Gimp parties a long time ago I guess.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 9:28am by rdmcandie
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#226 Jul 10 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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So, is your tactic to avoid what you can't you counter?

RCD wrote:

Yes, you should have stop being in Gimp parties a long time ago I guess.


Oh, so instead of accepting the fact that was the norm, you will claim that every party I was ever in was "gimp". Even when people realized VT chain > IT++ mobs, the camps could not support the same type of parties as in ToAU. There's a reason why people stopped leveling in outside ToAU places like Bibiki Bay, Cape Terrigan and Kuftal Tunnel.

So you can politely add this statement to the "ignored comments that I can't counter" and continue to live in denial.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#227 Jul 10 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
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Stop trying to argue with the belligerent wall RCD.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#228 Jul 10 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

So, is your tactic to avoid what you can't you counter?

RCD wrote:

Yes, you should have stop being in Gimp parties a long time ago I guess.


Oh, so instead of accepting the fact that was the norm, you will claim that every party I was ever in was "gimp". Even when people realized VT chain > IT++ mobs, the camps could not support the same type of parties as in ToAU. There's a reason why people stopped leveling in outside ToAU places like Bibiki Bay, Cape Terrigan and Kuftal Tunnel.

So you can politely add this statement to the "ignored comments that I can't counter" and continue to live in denial.


I told you why you didnt see many BRDs in groups. Because BRD and RDM shared the support slot, if you played RDM your whole **** career chances are you took that spot. Both jobs primary use was refresh on the WHM and BLM. If a BRD was in the party, a RDM was not, if a RDM was in the party a BRD was not. This is because the standard pt format only allowed for one variable slot, which was RDM or BRD.

Maybe Gimp was an overstatement as the bar back in the day wasn't very high. But to say BRD's never pulled until ToAU is dumb. They didn't magically inherit the ability to pull because of ToAU every pulling tool they used was available well before then. The only reason you could possibly think that is because you personally never saw it. Likely because you were the RDM filling the solitary variable pt slot, and oblivious to everything else going on around you.

(protip BRD was always a better option in EXP because their haste and slow stacked with a WHM haste and slow RDM was slightly useful for its ability to help support heal and MB, that is all. I don't know what fantasy land you live in but thats the truth.)

Oh and another thing, it wasn't camp support that drove people from RoZ/CoP areas, there were more than enough mobs to go around in sky/bibikki camps. The issue with RoZ/CoP was mob selection, fight a mob that does a bunch of **** moves that result in slowing down the group, or fight a mob whose worst TP attack is taking TP. Not to mention bing paper thin.

That is why ToAU camps were popular, I pulled 15k/hr in Bibikki bay on Giraffes and Goblins, about half as effective as a Colibri merit PT, and it wasn't a mob count issue, it was a mob issue.


Edited, Jul 10th 2011 12:13pm by rdmcandie
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#229 Jul 10 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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@ Cid.

It's not a matter of whether or not he's right it's a matter of what kind of person he became through that action. I value a good person far, far higher than I value a great player. If a person dedicates themselves to the job they play works to get better for that job. Whether or not that job is incredibly useful or barely present in an event, I've no problem helping them or having them participate.

The line is drawn between me saying "I'll play with you." And "I won't play with you." Relies on either that person being really generally bad (not following simple directions) or that person's attitude, which is far more often the problem, as this game isn't all that hard.

It's not the fact that RCD chose a new class and found out he enjoyed it. That's what I did years ago with Blue Mage because it hits many of the same points I like with RDM. But as I said, before all this argument started, is he doesn't know what I like in a job enough to tell me what to play or what I'll abandon.

And when he started going on a triad saying how useless RDM is in Abyssea, he crossed the line between playful bantering and me seriously thinking he's become an elitist ass. It's the attitude shift I'll not want to replicate. You should never tell a person what class to play, ever.

I was fine with him when it was just a recommendation. Hell, the entire conversation was light hearted until Sunrider really dug into him.


Redmagecandie:

It's fine to play a job based on it's performance. But when you shift play based entirely on the performance, and then look down upon the job you were previously playing, that is riding the bandwagon. It's the condescending approach that is the only problem with that, because bandwagons are popular for a reason.

But the difference between playstyles between someone who identifies with a job they play rather than simply playing for the performance.

You can throw the 'I'm ruining the fun for others' lie all you want. It is a lie, especially in my circumstance. A lot of the times people are just applicative of the body being there, so long as they can do something decent with the class they've chosen.

The answer to "what job?" question that is offered, is most often "Whatever job you want." in my group of friends. Sometimes we might ask for something specific, but those times are rare due to how easy the situations are. And then, we deal with what we have, and it's fun. I wouldn't want you to come on dancer just because you feel it's superior to your Red Mage. I'd want you to come on dancer because you enjoy the job thoroughly. Same with Black Mage.

Part of the reason I play Red Mage so adamantly, is that what I can offer, can easily change with subjob choice. It becomes a question of "What subjob do you want me to bring?" Which usually effects my playstyle on the outset. Blue Mage became a serious consideration when I realized I could just as easily ask the question "Hey what spells do you guys want?" As well as that, and still gain the same sort of "I'm a chameleon of combat casting." feel.

Once it's caught up, and I find that I enjoy myself more as a BLU in Abyssea. I will (as I like having an impact) likely play it more in that context.

But that doesn't make me say "GTFO, RDM!"

So I want you to ask yourself as to why you play the jobs you do. Because you like the jobs themselves, or just specifically that they're better than x job in x situation. That is determinant of your playstyle and what kind of a player you are. You need to be aware of that more than we do, because it effects all you do, and sometimes, the people you should game with.

#230 Jul 10 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
What you're describing is applicable to pretty much every facet of RDM's gear. Like, for nuking, you can wear Teal and be serviceable enough; or you can go the extra mile with Magian DMG staves, Estq.+2, Obis, Novio/Hecate's and make your nukes beastly as hell. MDT? You can cast Shell V and make do, or you can scrounge up some Dark Rings, put together some Coral+1 and cap it. Melee, you can wear Turban, Sentinel's, Goliard, ASA pants, Dusk, Swift, and do alright; or you can make an Almace, get a Ninurta's/Zelus/etc. and wreck sh*t. Stoneskin: cast normally for 350, or max it out with neck/hands/waist/legs. I could go on... For just about every purpose, there's a fairly-easily attainable set that's serviceable, and a set full of high-end gear that really maxes it out...

SE's given you everything you need to be successful at meleeing at this point; start small, work your way up, and once you get to the top, you'll probably see things my way. The journey's the real reward, etc.


In making this journey, granted, I'm not nearly at the end yet, I've realized that the scaling between our mage side, and our melee side, is highly lopsided.

Right now provides a good comparison as far as the equivalent on our Mage side. We have, thankfully, a lot more Cure Potency Gear now than we've ever had in the past. However, in spite of all that efforts, it still feels we fall short because we're pushing a 2 tier lower spell, where as, pushing the same effort in say, our nuking, yeilds much more satisfying results.

Pushing RDM's melee performance, feels like pushing our cure Performance in that respect. Sure, when we get to the epitome it's great to see the numbers increase, but the scaling feels like we're pushing something outdated in hopes for a patch. If the damage is as great as you say, then something to make that scaling feel a bit more satisfying as it goes up (like that utility that's been mentioned) would further encourage those to push that performance.

This said: New Question:

What sort of WS did you put emphasis on when you were working towards your Almace?


Also, new issue:

In terms of Nuking/Melee/Curing gear. These all really assist our secondary roles. What made me accept AF3 as a good set for Red Mage was how it helped our primary role in Enfeebeling and Enhancing, our specality. But aside from the most general of "here's MP, heres some skill, here's some magical accuracy and/or base stats" there's not much in terms of boosting our direct roles as an individual attention. There are pieces of gear, that are not JSE, that assist effects like "Sharpshot" or "Double Attack" or "Jump". But nothing before AF3 that says "Enhances Buff duration" or "Increases Paralyze Potency." (Magical Critical, and Obi effects on nuking side, etc.)

I would like to see gear take that trend, something that applies specifically to our specialty. Providing this might lighten the stress I feel in having to overload every single side aspect of this job in competition with other jobs.

Quote:

To me, AF3+1 is baseline for any job you're serious about, and +2 for any job you consider a main; by which I mean, if you don't have it, getting it should be your #1 priority (Assuming you're not just back from being gone for 3 years, or a new player, etc.) If you can't find a group to farm it with, there are shouts all day long in Jeuno offering the upgrades, usually from people collecting Empyrean junk, and it's pretty easy to start your own besides. Stuff like Zelus, Epona's, Twilight gear, that's the next step up; they drop from some pretty serious NMs, but all you really need to get them is a MNK, a WHM, a THF if you can, and a brew. More out of reach for some than for others, but really, finding that sort of arrangement for Abyssea should be a priority. Ninurta's is from AV so sure, it's a **** to try and get it from him, but on my server at least, there's always somebody trying to make money selling em. Expensive, sure, but you'll probably spend less time farming the gil than trying to build a crack AV-killin' team from scratch.

Empyreans, for the most part, if you can farm +2 items, you can make Empyreans.. hence my lack of sympathy for people who post about finishing their +2 set in the Achievement thread, but complain that they shouldn't have to make an Empyrean. Just silly, really.


I agree with this mostly. I'm working on my AF3 (with a small delay to finish off my sword trial, next trial is 700 vermin which is the primary target for working towards my boots which I already have the seals for.) And will be deciding my time in Abyssea between wins, seals and working up pop items for the NMs I want to hunt for better melee gear.

Emperyan should feel, however, like a highly desired goal, not a requirement for acceptance. Thuse the cry for adjustments/utility. Again, in my context, the stress for the update isn't so much, because I've got a group that's accepting and energizes well with my playstyle. Almace itself shouldn't be too difficult to get because I'll be working on my BLU at the same time. That'll be 2/3 jobs that can use it. I'll struggle at the choke points, just like everyone else, but I'll get through that.

Although, in the meanwhile, I'd like to a good alternative. I'm thinking of going the Sanguine Blade route with my OA2-4.

#231 Jul 10 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm still waiting for the change in RDM...

RCD wrote:
I told you why you didnt see many BRDs in groups. Because BRD and RDM shared the support slot, if you played RDM your whole **** career chances are you took that spot. Both jobs primary use was refresh on the WHM and BLM. If a BRD was in the party, a RDM was not, if a RDM was in the party


What game were you playing?

The party set up started as WHM, BLM, RDM, tank, 2 DD. Then it changed to RDM, BRD, BLM, tank, 2DD. Then it changed to RDM, BRD and 4 DDs. Then it was RDM, 2 BRD and 3 DD. Maybe only in the VERY beginning in the game did BRD and RDM share the same support slot, but as soon as RDM became the main healer (41+), BRD became it's own PERMANENT slot in the party.

RCD wrote:
Maybe Gimp was an overstatement as the bar back in the day wasn't very high. But to say BRD's never pulled until ToAU is dumb. They didn't magically inherit the ability to pull because of ToAU every pulling tool they used was available well before then. The only reason you could possibly think that is because you personally never saw it. Likely because you were the RDM filling the solitary variable pt slot, and oblivious to everything else going on around you.


Your comprehension can't be that bad. I never implied that BRD never did pull. That's the entire point. It's not that the job couldn't do it, just hardly ever done it. It wasn't the job that changed, but the playing style. The camps in ToAU were meant for long chains. At that time, BRD became the IDEA puller or in other words, the best class for the job.

Prior to that, sending a brd to pull in those aforementioned zones was not idea. Now do you see how a job is designed to be played is different from how the job is actually played? Further more, how the job is played varies as new content is released.

RCD wrote:
(protip BRD was always a better option in EXP because their haste and slow stacked with a WHM haste and slow RDM was slightly useful for its ability to help support heal and MB, that is all. I don't know what fantasy land you live in but thats the truth.)


I live in reality. RDM + BRD was the duo for the longest time. There wasn't any competition. Refresh stacked with ballad and that gave RDM "infinite" mp. WHM was obsolete in xp parties.

RCD wrote:
Oh and another thing, it wasn't camp support that drove people from RoZ/CoP areas, there were more than enough mobs to go around in sky/bibikki camps. The issue with RoZ/CoP was mob selection, fight a mob that does a bunch of bullsh*t moves that result in slowing down the group, or fight a mob whose worst TP attack is taking TP. Not to mention bing paper thin.


You mean like in Caedarva Mire? Those are probably the worst xp mobs all in one place and people stayed there because of the xp.

Your claim is complete and utter BS. As much as people complained about over camped ToAU zones, if the only difference between those two zones were "mob moves" and NOT xp, people would have stayed.

RCD wrote:
That is why ToAU camps were popular, I pulled 15k/hr in Bibikki bay on Giraffes and Goblins, about half as effective as a Colibri merit PT, and it wasn't a mob count issue, it was a mob issue.


First of all 20k was the baseline, with 25k being idea. Second of all, that was probably only possible because no one was there. The bottom line is that ToAU mobs were much more TP burn friendly than previous mobs.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 7:44pm by Almalieque
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#232 Jul 10 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hryist wrote:
So I want you to ask yourself as to why you play the jobs you do. Because you like the jobs themselves, or just specifically that they're better than x job in x situation. That is determinant of your playstyle and what kind of a player you are. You need to be aware of that more than we do, because it effects all you do, and sometimes, the people you should game with.


This.

There's a difference between occasionally or often times playing another job for efficiency purposes, but if you label it ANY FORM of useless because it only kills 3 mobs instead of 5,...... I don't even know where to begin to say how effed up that is. That whole "time argument" is complete BS. You can't claim that you have an ish-ton of minutes and still worry about time. Are you on 24/7? Obviously you aren't if you have that much saved up time.
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#233 Jul 10 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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For those just joining TLDR version update, Hyrist and Alma are content being leeches, and one of them is a complete moron, and the other is frantically trying to catch him up.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 2:35pm by rdmcandie


Quote:
There's a difference between occasionally or often times playing another job for efficiency purposes, but if you label it ANY FORM of useless because it only kills 3 mobs instead of 5,...... I don't even know where to begin to say how effed up that is. That whole "time argument" is complete BS. You can't claim that you have an ish-ton of minutes and still worry about time. Are you on 24/7? Obviously you aren't if you have that much saved up time.


Yes but taking a break for over a year did build me stones. As for how much time I spent, here is a run down of time I spent just this weekend farming my DNC neck (which I went 1/37 on)

37 kills in 7.5 minutes (being fair some died fast others did not) on a 15 minute repop

277 minutes spent killing + 540 minutes spent waiting on repops (36 repops as i didnt need to kill after 37)

817 total minutes for a grand total of 27 stones spent.

and that was for one single mob in one single zone. Not including time spent farming seals for my RDM, BLM, DNC, not including time spent farming pop items for my LS, not including time spent getting people boss wins/Cat wins, not including time spent farming atma's for people.

Now had I done that on RDM killing 33% slower I would have spent

27*1.33 = 35 stones. On one event.

I save myself well over 200 minutes in abyssea time by using DNC.

Thats stupid though right.

Not to mention I still have well over 300 stones, I couldn't imagine wanting to burn 33% more of my potential abyssea time by using an inferior job for the content being done.

RDM sucks in abyssea, get over it.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 2:43pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 2:46pm by rdmcandie
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#234 Jul 10 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's fine to play a job based on it's performance. But when you shift play based entirely on the performance, and then look down upon the job you were previously playing, that is riding the bandwagon. It's the condescending approach that is the only problem with that, because bandwagons are popular for a reason.


Does Alma have 2 accounts? Or did you forget how to read while you were away?

I STILL PLAY MY RDM It is likely my best geared job, but it is useless in abyssea, which is a time based event. The faster you get **** done the better. RDM is inefficient in this capacity. For other content its still a great choice, as I said earlier, but since 90% of the current game revolves around being in abyssea RDM is MOSTLY (Alma: that means largely but not quite 100%) useless.



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#235 Jul 10 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
For those just joining TLDR version update, Hyrist and Alma both realize the downfalls of RDM in abyssea but do not believe that causes RDM to be any form of useless. They realize that RDM was NEVER meant to be the BEST in anything and Abyssea is no different. Instead of admitting that the role of RDM never changed in abyssea, I'm using every excuse in the book to justify me *completely* dumping my RDM in abyssea.



FTFY

RCD wrote:

RDM sucks in abyssea, get over it.


Ok, I want you to make a clarification. Are you saying that RDM is NOT useless in abyssea, only useless in the playing style that you choose to play? Or, are you saying that RDM is useless all the way around in abyssea?

RCD wrote:
(Alma: that means largely but not quite 100%) useless.


Until you stop avoiding it and show how RDM somehow changed, you can not claim that it magically became any form of useless. At this point, you're just trolling. I don't mind because your small posts make it easier to respond to, as you ignore all of my countering points and only bring up new stuff that you think will support your argument.
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#236 Jul 10 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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You are stupid. RDM hasn't changed and that is its problem. Christ. The game has changed and RDM is redundant in abyssea. It is useless. I am quite sure it has already been covered (although that would require the ability to read.)

And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.

Quote:

Part of the reason I play Red Mage so adamantly, is that what I can offer, can easily change with subjob choice. It becomes a question of "What subjob do you want me to bring?" Which usually effects my playstyle on the outset. Blue Mage became a serious consideration when I realized I could just as easily ask the question "Hey what spells do you guys want?" As well as that, and still gain the same sort of "I'm a chameleon of combat casting." feel.


I wanted to respond to this earlier but had to go out for lunch. Anyhow.

If it gets to the point where you are playing the what subjob do you want me (RDM should be /WAR in abyssea anyway there is no reason to sub anything else, especially if want to pretend to be useful). Why not take the 2 days level one of your subs to 90 so you can say, all right im HPing What JOB do you want me, I might actually have something useful!.

Edited, Jul 10th 2011 5:38pm by rdmcandie
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#237 Jul 10 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If it gets to the point where you are playing the what subjob do you want me (RDM should be /WAR in abyssea anyway there is no reason to sub anything else, especially if want to pretend to be useful). Why not take the 2 days level one of your subs to 90 so you can say, all right im HPing What JOB do you want me, I might actually have something useful!.


Because at that point, I've crossed the line between playing with others, and playing for others. And until the point someone begins paying my $12.95 a month for me, that is a line I will not cross. (And while those who don't agree pay money too, I don't have to play with them, I have my own friends.) Subjobs are something I leveled because it's expands a part of a Job I enjoy and work to master. Changing the main job changes the entire premise of what I am playing.

I make no illusions to the fact that I play this game like I do any other: For personal fun and amusement. Just because Final Fantasy XI offers a more social setting to, does not suddenly obligate me to playing a job I would not enjoy otherwise, in order to be more 'useful'.

Now, if I were to take a job, I've already determined that I like to 90, and then begin using it more often than my Red Mage due to both use and enjoyment, there is no conflict of interest. As a point in case, I have laying down in front of me right now the wiki printed list of Blue Magic with the spells I've already learned crossed off. And, a standing offer from my linkshell leader for me to be the designated leach for their parties on my Blue Mage.

But don't mistake the distinction here. I like Blue Mage because the role and design of it is very similar to Red Mage in the means that it is a highly variable hybrid class that mixes 1h Swordplay with magic of differing nature. They're opposite sides to the same coin. I'm not leveling it to be X more useful to Y event. That's skirting too close to enslaving my free time to someone else's whims. I've got no problem being slower in getting the things I need. Abyssea is highly congested right now and trying to rush things is a recipe to be frustrated every time there's a choke point. And when I do want to achieve things faster, I trade favors with my friends, who find more than enough use for my RDM to be requesting it. I may not be able to do as well as a specialist, but when that specialist isn't available, most the time, I'm still getting called on. (Or, often, just called to hang out and take a break from trial grinding.)

As LyltiaofLakshmi said, the journey's the real reward.


One last thing:

Quote:
Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM.


Give me one situation in this game that requires a RDM, RCD, and your argument might have more weight. (Note, Chainspell Stun is not 'required' it just makes things easier. Not to mention... when was the last situation in which it was really used as a regular practice?) We are a job of redundancies. It's something you get used to as a RDM, and learn where you can contribute the best you can in any given situation. Abyssea is just the worst of these situations.

But there are those who have invested in the job, like you have, for many years, and do not have the time or patience to fully gear another job simply because one event has made their job feel outdated.(I myself have many hobbies and obligations and a limited amount of time to do them.) These people can either wait for a patch, or make due with what they have.

You can choose to contribute to a 'lol'stigma if you wish. But that is what makes you a bandwagon player. Not because you're arguing for efficiency, but because of your jaded, bitter anger towards anyone who doesn't hop with you. And your default switch to insults when exposed for it. A RDM can help in Abyssea without being a leach, it's just not as time effective to invite RDM with the idea that they are going to encompass a full role, rather than assist in many roles.

This was is the job's initial premise to begin with, and has the same problems now as it did then. However, in actual application in the game, with live people, it's not even a problem. Red Mage gets used in Abyssea all the time as a generalist, to fill in whatever feels a bit lacking. Would I like the job to have something shiny and unique in order to be desired again? Sure, who wouldn't? But even I switch to use on BLU when it catches up for situations, I'm not going to sit and insult those who come to an event on RDM. Ideally, nor should you.

In many ways, this is the 2003 argument all over again. RDM lacks a specific pourpose in Abyssea, like they did before the days of Refresh/Convert. That didn't stop people from playing the job and making it both functional and enjoyable either.




Edited, Jul 10th 2011 6:51pm by Hyrist
#238 Jul 10 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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RDC wrote:
You are stupid. RDM hasn't changed and that is its problem. Christ.


Wow, that's exactly what me and Hrysit said.

RDC wrote:
The game has changed and RDM is redundant in abyssea.


How is that useless? That's the biggest thing about RDM, their ability to cover down on certain roles, but not excel at it. There's always been an overwhelming part of redundancy for RDM. Nothing has changed. The only thing that kept RDM from being *completely* redundant was refresh, which bards and corsairs could do much more efficiently.

RDC wrote:
It is useless. I am quite sure it has already been covered (although that would require the ability to read.)


So, is your "final answer" "RDM is useless in Abyssea no matter how you play it?" I just want to hear you say it so you can't back peddle with "That's not what I meant" garbage.

RDC wrote:
And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.



I've countered numerous of your posts. Your counter was "ignore them".

As for a case that requires a RDM, I never said that there was one, but that doesn't make it *useless*. That's my entire argument. That's always been the case for the most part of RDM. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Just because it isn't good as other jobs, doesn't mean anything because RDMs have always been in that position.

You're just going around sporadically with different arguments trying support your band wagonerness. If you're useless in a group environment in Abyssea, it's a good chance that you just suck.


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#239 Jul 10 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Because at that point, I've crossed the line between playing with others, and playing for others. And until the point someone begins paying my $12.95 a month for me, that is a line I will not cross.


What about the others that currently play for you? Your RDM likely doesn't help them in any constructive way (well nothing more than /WHM can). Or do you run around on your BLU being useful instead?.

Quote:

In many ways, this is the 2003 argument all over again. RDM lacks a specific pourpose in Abyssea, like they did before the days of Refresh/Convert. That didn't stop people from playing the job and making it both functional and enjoyable either.


I don't know who you are arguing with in that regard then. I haven't once said RDM is not enjoyable or has functionality. It is impractical functionality and mostly useless but still functional. I honestly think you haven't read a single thing ive posted tbh.

Quote:
Give me one situation in this game that requires a RDM, RCD, and your argument might have more weight.


Pretty much anything outside of Abyssea that requires a WHM needs a RDM and a BRD. More specifically the new Void Watch NM system, that is devoid of massive amounts of constant refresh or easily obtain MP restore chests/items. Older content not so much but it is still advisable for certain events such as ToAU Kings (or w/e you want to call them) VNM's, and ZNM's. **** there is an undead dude that is practically impossible without having a RDM there for Refresh alone, since everyone is required to be /NIN on the fight including BLM's and WHM's.

The list actually is pretty long in situations where having a RDM is paramount to success (and lol @ Chainstun not being required. Did you ever clear Dyna Xarc without chainstun? when it was level appropriate content.)

There ya go specific instances where RDM is highly useful if not paramount to success. Exactly where in abyssea does RDM fit in, in a useful way?


I remember when this board actually had smart people in it, those were the good ol days.



Edited, Jul 10th 2011 7:37pm by rdmcandie
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#240 Jul 10 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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RDC wrote:
What about the others that currently play for you? Your RDM likely doesn't help them in any constructive way (well nothing more than /WHM can).


Once again, if your RDM is any sort of useless in Abyssea, then you suck. You act like people with /rdm or /whm is the same thing as being a RDM or WHM. Outside of SCH, there is no job that I can recall that voluntarily plays like a WHM or RDM because of their sub.

Have you seen other jobs create refresh or haste cycles? I'm not saying that they don't, just haven't seen it. I never see a BLM cure (unless in an emergency) let alone create a cycle and nor should they have to. That's what *gasp* RDM is for.

Didn't we get past this in 2003? Just because a SMN has a ton of mp and can sub whm doesn't make it a desired healer.
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#241 Jul 10 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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In making this journey, granted, I'm not nearly at the end yet, I've realized that the scaling between our mage side, and our melee side, is highly lopsided.


That's just game design, not anything unique to RDM. Gear makes nukes better of course, but the difference between a good nuker and a bad one has a lot more to do with skill and strategy, as opposed to meleeing, where the skill involved usually consists of auto-attacking and WSing @100% TP; gear plays a much larger role for them. RDM just starts at the additional disadvantage of being a light melee class.

This is why I keep saying that an update addressing this is highly unlikely; it's not a RDM-centric issue, although it is more noticeable to us than most other jobs.

Quote:
This said: New Question:

What sort of WS did you put emphasis on when you were working towards your Almace?


Blade: Hi! XD

From what i hear, Sanguine is pretty good if you gear for it correctly and Vorpal's always good; but if you don't have access from subjob, Evisceration > Death Blossom, as always.

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Although, in the meanwhile, I'd like to a good alternative. I'm thinking of going the Sanguine Blade route with my OA2-4.


From what I've read, that's the way to go; Sanguine when you need HP, Vorpal when you don't.. but, if you plan on making an Almace, OA2~4 will end up being completely redundant and you'll never use it again (and considering the effort for the OA2~4... I wouldn't bother, just start on your Almace and be done with it); you'd be better off with a Double Attack sword, they complement Empyreans much better.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#242 Jul 10 2011 at 8:41 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:

RDC wrote:
And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.



I've countered numerous of your posts. Your counter was "ignore them".

There is a difference between countering and simply responding. You have most certainly not accomplished the former in any capacity.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#243 Jul 10 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wish you guys could argue more tangibly, cuz I'd love to be a part of it!
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#244 Jul 11 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:

I remember when this board actually had smart people in it, those were the good ol days.


RCD, you do realize you just disqualified yourself as a smart person, right? See, this is why I'm saying you're not getting it. You're not paying attention to what you're saying.



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What about the others that currently play for you? Your RDM likely doesn't help them in any constructive way (well nothing more than /WHM can). Or do you run around on your BLU being useful instead?.


Again, the difference of this is that I'm not playing 'for' them, nor are they playing 'for' me. We're playing with each other. The amount of how much one person helps another, doesn't even come into the equation. Because not only do we help one another in good faith, but we have a good time doing it as well.

And again, I'm not telling anyone what job to bring or even how to play that job.

Are you understanding the difference here? I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm trying to show you the line between playing because you wish to, and playing because you feel you must. You're trying to impose the latter here, and that's the problem I have.

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I don't know who you are arguing with in that regard then. I haven't once said RDM is not enjoyable or has functionality. It is impractical functionality and mostly useless but still functional. I honestly think you haven't read a single thing ive posted tbh.


I've been reading yours quite thoroughly, however in lumping my statements into their most general form you've not yet realized the problem I have with you: Your attitude. You state words like 'useless' and 'functional' in the same sentence like you have no understanding of the words you are saying. If a Red Mage can function than it is not useless, the words denote a black and white statement that is acknowledged as false right in your own sentence.

It's this sort of terminology that floods the internet that I despise with a passion.

It's not 'average' it's 'mediocre' it's not 'unspecialized' it's 'mostly useless'. It's the infectious, venomous hatred that seethes into every aspect and every word. Even when regarding you completely neutral you insist on insulting me as a reply. That's what I'm arguing with. You want to tell me I'm 'better off' playing another job in abyssea, you can start by listing your personal frustrations as to where you feel we lack. Which, if I'm right, your main concerns were procs, and soloing.

Perhaps a better question to ask you, and to try to get you off this negative tone you have, is, why dancer AND Black Mage over Blue Mage?

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More specifically the new Void Watch NM system, that is devoid of massive amounts of constant refresh or easily obtain MP restore chests/items.


Probably the only valid ammunition you have, as I don't know Voidwatch atm. But your argument rides on refresh, which I can tell you 3mp/tic isn't going to matter.

What it should ride on really is Slow. Saboteur + Slow II + Carnage Elegy is probably what makes Voidwatch much more bearable, with a RDM than without. But with the game in transition, how long will that hold up? You mentioned CSS like it's a requirement even now, but think of Alexander and how much more effective a defense that is. (And yes, Dynamis Xar was cleared without CSS, but having it is one of the best things you can have for Dynamis Lord specifically back in the day. But it's not required any more. You can stun-rotate Death.) And even then, with more curing power you probably could make up the presence of that debuff in Voidwatch, just add a second WHM and land the normal slow.

You're right in saying RDM is far more useful outside of Abyssea than inside it. But you're not right in stating that it's 'required' or 'useless' anywhere.
#245 Jul 11 2011 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM sucks in abyssea, get over it.

Even exaggerated, there's so much wrong with this statement that it gives me a headache.
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#246 Jul 11 2011 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:


This is why I keep saying that an update addressing this is highly unlikely; it's not a RDM-centric issue, although it is more noticeable to us than most other jobs.


I wouldn't go that far, specifically. THF was having troubles before they changed the mechanics on Treasure Hunter. But now it's fairly encourage. Again, emphasis on update through utility is my approach to a solution. I agree that updating damage isn't a sufficient thing, and a complete class re-write or a gigantic bonus to our effectiveness are unlikely.

Quote:

From what i hear, Sanguine is pretty good if you gear for it correctly and Vorpal's always good; but if you don't have access from subjob, Evisceration > Death Blossom, as always.


Granted, my Atmas and Evis Gear are sorely behind, but I'm getting fairly good numbers out of my Aeolean Edge for the position I'm in. But yeah, Evis for damage, Death Blossom for Skillchains.


Quote:
From what I've read, that's the way to go; Sanguine when you need HP, Vorpal when you don't.. but, if you plan on making an Almace, OA2~4 will end up being completely redundant and you'll never use it again (and considering the effort for the OA2~4... I wouldn't bother, just start on your Almace and be done with it); you'd be better off with a Double Attack sword, they complement Empyreans much better.


That's a difference in play-style approach, actually. I mulled it over quite a while before I chose the path I wanted. Put bluntly, RDM doesn't amount enough Double Attack outside of Abyssea to justify the Double Attack sword over something like the Oa2-4 or even Joyeuse. For what we'd gain in our offhand, we'd be better off just single-wielding Almace/WAR We'd gain the same amount of double attack, superior attack benefits, but loose the off-hit chance. That off-hit would be a major concern if we weren't so attack deficient. But that's the sad truth of it.

Dual wielding, my focus is often on WS spam. Multi-hit weapons rule in this case, because our DPS relatively sucks. As a personal practice I use my TP to often open or close WSes, so for me, TP gain is more important, even if I don't use it at 100%. I loose out on the inches of damage over Joyeuse the OA2-4 has in spamming if I hesitate, but typically I don't have to. (And /dnc can spend that extra TP into steps/sambas/waltzes if I'm on that subjob.) It's a conscious play-style decision given the context of friends I play within. Not something I'd recommend on the whole, and I intend on working on a DA Khanda under the hopes that they'll split in name sometime (or at the very least tier up once more and allow me to get the +10 version.) However it seems to work best given my specific circumstance.

How it will compliment my Emperyan when I get it, I'll have to see for myself. When I get it. But I'm a nut when it comes to wanting to collect swords anyways, so I'm not all that concerned.
#247 Jul 11 2011 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Dual wielding, my focus is often on WS spam. Multi-hit weapons rule in this case, because our DPS relatively sucks. As a personal practice I use my TP to often open or close WSes, so for me, TP gain is more important, even if I don't use it at 100%. I loose out on the inches of damage over Joyeuse the OA2-4 has in spamming if I hesitate, but typically I don't have to. (And /dnc can spend that extra TP into steps/sambas/waltzes if I'm on that subjob.) It's a conscious play-style decision given the context of friends I play within. Not something I'd recommend on the whole, and I intend on working on a DA Khanda under the hopes that they'll split in name sometime (or at the very least tier up once more and allow me to get the +10 version.) However it seems to work best given my specific circumstance.

The low base damage and above average delay really hurt your overall DPS potential something fierce though, even with a WS-spam playstyle. Since I'm too lazy to to run the math myself (could, just don't wanna) I just bum Kinematics' DPS Spreadsheets, so take it for whatever worth you want. But for nearly every job (and the ad-hoc RDM xls I put together) the DA, OAT, and STR weapons higher base damage pulls it ahead (lower delay too, but not as severe as base damage). DA and STR weapons especially, since they effect WSs too. Unless you're parsing, eyeballing your WS rate really isn't the best way to judge your overall DPS, which is what a WS-spam style is ultimately concerned with. OA2-4 really just isn't worth the effort.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 1:18am by jlejeune
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#248 Jul 11 2011 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That's a difference in play-style approach, actually. I mulled it over quite a while before I chose the path I wanted. Put bluntly, RDM doesn't amount enough Double Attack outside of Abyssea to justify the Double Attack sword over something like the Oa2-4 or even Joyeuse.


Nah, Double Attack from the offhand applies to the Empyrean in the mainhand, so it increases the benefit from Aftermath, while being a respectable DMG/Delay weapon in of itself; while OA2~4 just adds to the number of weak, offhand hits, diluting your Aftermath to the point where you'd be better off with a shield. I know a guy with comparable melee gear that offhands the OA2~4 Katana with his Kannagi, and you don't even need a parser to see how crappy it is compared to offhanding a Kamome, much less the Double Attack Katana. You'd think that the increased TP gain would be worth it for spamming WS, but the bulk of your DPS comes from the TP phase; the slightly increased WS frequency at the expense of less Aftermath procs and reduced melee DPS from such a sh*tty DMG rating and high delay on OA2~4 loses.

Aftermath is a huge, huge part of what makes Empyreans as powerful as they are, especially for 1H/DW users that have their overall DPS skewed towards melee DoT over WS damage... I will never understand why anyone wastes their time on the WoE versions, given all the stupid drama over WoE coins I'm always hearing about.

All this only really applies outside Abyssea though.. if you're using the proper melee Atmas inside, Almace/Shield all the way.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 4:53am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#249 Jul 11 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

RDC wrote:
And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.



I've countered numerous of your posts. Your counter was "ignore them".

There is a difference between countering and simply responding. You have most certainly not accomplished the former in any capacity.


Example?

For example, I'll provide a good counter example of me providing a counter example to your example.

I stated that there was a difference between being a master of tanking and being the best choice for a tank for a particular mob. I was asked to define the difference, I did. My definition was said to be "skewed", but no one countered with a more accurate definition when I asked. I later asked if you all do not believe that SE designed certain jobs with a purpose , mostly unique? Furthermore that regardless of how the job was designed to be played, it can be played in other ways. That proves that a job can be designed as a Master of xxx and be used in a totally different capacity.

That's just an example, now your turn...

RCD wrote:

I remember when this board actually had smart people in it, those were the good ol days.


Yea, when everyone claimed that it was impossible for a RDM to melee and keep up with their mage duties and that you role was in the back line because you are a Red MAGE not a RED WARRIOR!!!? Yea... the good 'ol days...

Hryist wrote:
You state words like 'useless' and 'functional' in the same sentence like you have no understanding of the words you are saying. If a Red Mage can function than it is not useless, the words denote a black and white statement that is acknowledged as false right in your own sentence.


Exactly this. This is what I had in mind when I say RDM isn't useless. When you claim that RDM might as well be a key whore, then either you're not understanding the words that you're using or are delusional.
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#250 Jul 11 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

RDC wrote:
And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.



I've countered numerous of your posts. Your counter was "ignore them".

There is a difference between countering and simply responding. You have most certainly not accomplished the former in any capacity.


Example?

For example, I'll provide a good counter example of me providing a counter example to your example.

I stated that there was a difference between being a master of tanking and being the best choice for a tank for a particular mob. I was asked to define the difference, I did. My definition was said to be "skewed", but no one countered with a more accurate definition when I asked. I later asked if you all do not believe that SE designed certain jobs with a purpose , mostly unique? Furthermore that regardless of how the job was designed to be played, it can be played in other ways. That proves that a job can be designed as a Master of xxx and be used in a totally different capacity.

Your definition consisted of mumbling some incoherent nonsense about Michael Jordan.

So here's a solid definition of "master" for you to work with: One who has exceptional aptitude with a skill or set of skills.

Now here's the definition you've been using: A master of X is a job that SE thought everyone would use to accomplish X, regardless of whether or not the game mechanics, metagame or class design actually supports it.

Did I hit the nail on the head there, or would you like to do a better job of articulating your position?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#251 Jul 11 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

RDC wrote:
And you don't have any counter points because it is impossible to counter. Give me one situation in abyssea that requires a RDM. Go ahead one that is all I ask for.



I've countered numerous of your posts. Your counter was "ignore them".

There is a difference between countering and simply responding. You have most certainly not accomplished the former in any capacity.


Example?

For example, I'll provide a good counter example of me providing a counter example to your example.

I stated that there was a difference between being a master of tanking and being the best choice for a tank for a particular mob. I was asked to define the difference, I did. My definition was said to be "skewed", but no one countered with a more accurate definition when I asked. I later asked if you all do not believe that SE designed certain jobs with a purpose , mostly unique? Furthermore that regardless of how the job was designed to be played, it can be played in other ways. That proves that a job can be designed as a Master of xxx and be used in a totally different capacity.

Your definition consisted of mumbling some incoherent nonsense about Michael Jordan.

So here's a solid definition of "master" for you to work with: One who has exceptional aptitude with a skill or set of skills.

Now here's the definition you've been using: A master of X is a job that SE thought everyone would use to accomplish X, regardless of whether or not the game mechanics, metagame or class design actually supports it.

Did I hit the nail on the head there, or would you like to do a better job of articulating your position?


I don't even know if he knows what his position is (or what he is arguing against, they both still think i don't use my RDM for christ sakes.)
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