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#152 Jul 06 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Default
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it isn't completely useless, it is mostly useless. In the sense RDM is good for really 2 things, Brewing, id say its the second strongest in the game no doubt, eiter chainspell brew, or Sang Blade brew, and of course outside abyssea, where enfeebles mean something, and refresh matters (looking at voidwatch mostly).

RDM enffeebles should be completely removed from that list, and replaced with a proper stance function, similar to DNC's Fan Dance/Saber Dance, SCH's LA/BA. Instead inversly supporting and nerfing frontline ability, and backline ability. The enfeeble spells should be scrolls, with the options at 99 (if) supporting further options with specfic spell categories, offering bonuses to any of healing, enfeebling, enhancing, and elemental. With the other 2 designed around Combat and Defenses.

Don't try and play little games with, Ive shred my fair share of ideas, and made my disagreement and agreements on others. Lots of times, don't sit there and pretend I haven't been rated to subdefault and back based on my opinions both shared and opinionated on.

The fact of the matter is, RDM in the current game is bad, really bad, while it is fun to play, it is not beneficial to other, and outside of fun factor not beneficial to your self.

You mentioned about me get 5:3 on my DNC, that is important, the faster I get **** done that I want/need to, the more time I have to **** around on my RDM and farm dark rings, solo dyna currency, duo ancient currency, all stuff I also like to do that my RDM is great in. The faster I get done with mundane things like seals, and nm farms, the quicker I can go do other ****

RDM is **** inside of abyssea, just deal with, the job is not designed abyssea friendly. Sure it might be able to play hero and get 3 procs here and there, turn some heads etc. But thats rare, and about the only thing RDM offers, all be it impractically.

No ive gone over the pro's and con's enough, RDM just has to many red flags in abyssea. It sucks, but I chose to level stuff that helps reduce mine and others time in abyssea, so we can do things we like to do.
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#153 Jul 06 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
I could give two sh*ts about whatever you think you proved years ago. All that matters now is that you are spewing some seriously flawed bullsh*t here and now, and I'm calling you on it.



Wait, so are you going to put some words to that challenge or just talk ish? You haven't said anything to support the nonsense that you're referencing. So either get to 'splainin or STFU.

Lyltiao wrote:
I don't know what you solo on RDM, but it sounds like some pretty @#%^ing weak sh*t to me. Given that your NIN subjob is level 20, I'm going to go ahead and assume you've soloed nothing truly dangerous and/or impressive, so your opinions on the subject (besides being self-defeating in themselves) are completely invalid.


I haven't soloed anything worth noting, but that has zero impact on the RDMs who have, how they done it and how the RDM class is designed, you know the important stuff.

I don't have to level MNK to know it isn't very good with elemental magic.

Lyltiao wrote:
If you wanna debate how good RDM is at farming trash mobs or killing low-tier NMs, go find somebody else's time to waste.


That was never the intent. You're blinded by your own confusion.

cidabahumut wrote:
Oh for @#%^'s sake. This is why I hate every other Red Mage I meet. You're all living with this delusion that Red Mage in FFXI is the same Red Mage as in every other offline Final Fantasy game.

It's not.

Wake the @#%^ up and come to terms with that cold harsh reality or go level a job that's better suited to what you're looking for.


I can't speak for every Final Fantasy game because I haven't played them all, just every single Final Fantasy game I've ever played to include FFXI.

You're the only delusional person here. Not only is it blatantly described as such by SE, it's abilities, spells, traits, etc. all support that. So... uh... I think you should reconsider coming back to reality...The grass IS greener over here.
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#154 Jul 06 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait, so are you going to put some words to that challenge or just talk ish? You haven't said anything to support the nonsense that you're referencing. So either get to 'splainin or STFU.


I really don't know how to respond to this. What I will say, is that RDM's offensive capabilities have very little to do with what makes them the best solo job; that only matters when you have a time limit of some sort hanging over your head. What really makes RDM stand above every other soloing job is the sheer amount of defense they can pile on compared to the rest. They possess a wide variety of defensive Enhancing/Enfeebling magic, some of which is RDM exclusive. Other jobs get some of the spells, but RDM is the only one that gets access to them all from their main job, which means they can use /NIN for access to the single best form of damage mitigation in the game; Utsusemi. Add to that ridiculously high amounts of Fast Cast, floored recasts, access to PDT/MDT-50% sets, elemental resist builds, intimidation builds, spell interrupt- builds... the list goes on.

In other words, if you think that a BLM in possession of Convert/Refresh can solo the same **** a RDM can, and even do it better, you are **** stupid and haven't the slightest clue what your professed main job is capable of.

There, did i miss anything?
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#155 Jul 06 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Default
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it isn't completely useless, it is mostly useless. In the sense RDM is good for really 2 things, Brewing, id say its the second strongest in the game no doubt, eiter chainspell brew, or Sang Blade brew, and of course outside abyssea, where enfeebles mean something, and refresh matters (looking at voidwatch mostly).

RDM enffeebles should be completely removed from that list, and replaced with a proper stance function, similar to DNC's Fan Dance/Saber Dance, SCH's LA/BA. Instead inversly supporting and nerfing frontline ability, and backline ability. The enfeeble spells should be scrolls, with the options at 99 (if) supporting further options with specfic spell categories, offering bonuses to any of healing, enfeebling, enhancing, and elemental. With the other 2 designed around Combat and Defenses.

Don't try and play little games with, Ive shred my fair share of ideas, and made my disagreement and agreements on others. Lots of times, don't sit there and pretend I haven't been rated to subdefault and back based on my opinions both shared and opinionated on.

The fact of the matter is, RDM in the current game is bad, really bad, while it is fun to play, it is not beneficial to other, and outside of fun factor not beneficial to your self.

You mentioned about me get 5:3 on my DNC, that is important, the faster I get **** done that I want/need to, the more time I have to **** around on my RDM and farm dark rings, solo dyna currency, duo ancient currency, all stuff I also like to do that my RDM is great in. The faster I get done with mundane things like seals, and nm farms, the quicker I can go do other ****

RDM is **** inside of abyssea, just deal with, the job is not designed abyssea friendly. Sure it might be able to play hero and get 3 procs here and there, turn some heads etc. But thats rare, and about the only thing RDM offers, all be it impractically.

No ive gone over the pro's and con's enough, RDM just has to many red flags in abyssea. It sucks, but I chose to level stuff that helps reduce mine and others time in abyssea, so we can do things we like to do.
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#156 Jul 07 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh for @#%^'s sake. This is why I hate every other Red Mage I meet. You're all living with this delusion that Red Mage in FFXI is the same Red Mage as in every other offline Final Fantasy game.

It's not.

Wake the @#%^ up and come to terms with that cold harsh reality or go level a job that's better suited to what you're looking for.


Perhaps the irony of this is when it comes to RDMs trying to forge a unique identity **** for the FFXI universe, they're shot down by naysayers using that very standard, or the typical, "Jack Of All Trades, Master Of NoneSuck At Them All" line. While Abyssea has somewhat shifted the perception of a specialist, people seeking the best of the best at any given moment isn't a new thing. I still believe RDM can be its own kind of specialist, but if 76-90 has been any indication, SE has zero motivation in pulling that off.

As is, I can't really fault people who don't favor RDM now and outright consider them a bandwagoner if they opted to WHM for healing, BLM for nuking, or... well, **** near anything else for meleeing. If you sold/dropped all your gear for it? Yeah. However, playing the whole rdm4lyfe card and never playing anything else has the bad side effect of making you look like a social douche nozzle if you have a finger on even the slightest pulse of current game trends. It's not useless, but not as useful, and in FFXI speak, not as useful is tantamount to suck the moment you leave a circle of accepting friends.
#157 Jul 07 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Default
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Hypothetical situation. Just putting that out there.

Lets assume you and a friend have decided to go seal farming. He Being a THF and you being a RDM or BLM.

Red Mage Pros.
- 2/7 elemental procs
- HEALS
- HASTE
- enfeebles
- DIA III
- damage nukes

/BLM
WARP II
4/7 dark PROCS

/WHM
-na's
-divine seal
-3/7 Light Procs.

/WHM clearly looks like the winner, all that stuff is very important in a 2 man team against some nasty status effect mobs. 3 New procs.

VS this option
BLM/WHM

-4/7 Elemental nukes 3/7 Light 3/7 Dark PROCS
-HEALS
-HASTE
-enfeebles
-damage nukes

and the most important thing RDM/WHM doesn't get

WARP II.

The jobs are pretty close with BLM notably only with a 2 proc advantage. However RDM/WHM you are stuck there, or heading back from a tele. BLM has D2, which is instant access to Jeuno for pop items, or in some cases sub job change to /BRD or /RDM for that additional stingy proc. The THF uses pots in the short time you are away.

That is tons of time spent, and something RDM can not really do in a practical capacity. Much less should they waste their time doing it since they are missing 2 elemental procs anyway.

In the Time Factor vs Procs
BLM wins 4/7 elemental procs

In the Secondary Usefulness category
BLM wins being able to get 2 additional procs in relatively minimal time, as well as Pop Item access cutting out farming time.

RDM simply can not compete and that is the cold truth, BLM right trumps RDM and is way more useful to any group 2 man +, It can heal the same as a RDM, has the same secondary tools, with more procs, and more utility.


On a completely unrelated note, I want to see Demi line of spells, Magic based on Enfeebling skill, Dots the Target for helix like damage damage and reduces all stats for a time. I think DoT's based on enfeebling would be the way to go. Demi Ultima Gravity 2 (add a dot to it since everything is immune to it anyway).

I think that would be badass, since RDM is a soloboat, why not let it solo faster, so RDM's can do their own things. More Dots do it SE.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 11:09am by rdmcandie
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#158 Jul 07 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
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I'd add Stun to the list of things you get from /BLM.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#159 Jul 07 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Default
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Thats true, I did forget stun.
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#160 Jul 07 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Wait, so are you going to put some words to that challenge or just talk ish? You haven't said anything to support the nonsense that you're referencing. So either get to 'splainin or STFU.


I really don't know how to respond to this. What I will say, is that RDM's offensive capabilities have very little to do with what makes them the best solo job; that only matters when you have a time limit of some sort hanging over your head. What really makes RDM stand above every other soloing job is the sheer amount of defense they can pile on compared to the rest. They possess a wide variety of defensive Enhancing/Enfeebling magic, some of which is RDM exclusive. Other jobs get some of the spells, but RDM is the only one that gets access to them all from their main job, which means they can use /NIN for access to the single best form of damage mitigation in the game; Utsusemi. Add to that ridiculously high amounts of Fast Cast, floored recasts, access to PDT/MDT-50% sets, elemental resist builds, intimidation builds, spell interrupt- builds... the list goes on.

In other words, if you think that a BLM in possession of Convert/Refresh can solo the same sh*t a RDM can, and even do it better, you are @#%^ing stupid and haven't the slightest clue what your professed main job is capable of.

There, did i miss anything?


Yes, like how RDM is/was the Master of Solo.

First off, are you differentiating a job being a Master of something vs a job being the best choice? If not, then we can stop here because I am. Those are two completely different concepts. I'll concede that RDM is an idea job for solo, but I will not say that it is a "master of solo". If I had to give that title to someone, it would be BST.

Secondly, so your argument is on defense? IIRC, the only natively RDM defense bonus has been phalanx. Even that can be subbed.

Enfeebling? HA.. So does enfeebling matter now or not? People have always been arguing against enfeebling as it is either immune or have no problem landing, nothing in the middle.

Enhancing: I'll give this more credit than anything else, but still doesn't put RDM in the category you desire. The only RDM spell that I can think of is once again refresh.

As for not knowing about my main job, I'm merely comparing on strategy back in the Avesta days. I'm not sure if anything has changed, but in the videos that I've seen, it consisted of DoT, kite, nuke. Given that strategy, the only thing that favored RDM was refresh/convert. Now, if you're soloing differently, i.e. melee, then of course BLM will not compare.

Seriha wrote:
It's not useless, but not as useful, and in FFXI speak, not as useful is tantamount to suck the moment you leave a circle of accepting friends.


And that my friend, is a personal problem. RCD claims to have gone against the crowd with RDM melee his entire career. A RDM with a sword was instantly deemed a waste of bandwidth, so how is it now that he all of the sudden "cares" what others might think of him? He doesn't, before he was able to pull it off solely because of RDM was in demand. Now that RDM isn't in demand anymore AND he can't kill those extra 2 mobs, he wants to move to another job. That makes him a band wagoner.

That's perfectly fine and no one cares that he does such, but to claim it's "useless", because it isn't the best in something demonstrates a lack of understanding what a RDM is. As a result, it appears that you were just playing RDM because it was "in". Else, you should have realized these same downfalls of RDM years ago.

RCD wrote:
Hypothetical situation. Just putting that out there.

Lets assume you and a friend have decided to go seal farming. He Being a THF and you being a RDM or BLM.


No one is saying that RDM outweighs anything. The point is, there are scenarios where you could be a RDM and fulfill whatever role you were invited to fill. Will you be the best at it? No. That's always been the case with RDM. How are you just figuring that out now? Why did it take you so long to realize that?
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#161 Jul 07 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

Yes, like how RDM is/was the Master of Solo.

First off, are you differentiating a job being a Master of something vs a job being the best choice? If not, then we can stop here because I am. Those are two completely different concepts.

You're going to need to define those two concepts and be very specific with your wording, because they appear synonymous.

Almalieque wrote:

No one is saying that RDM outweighs anything. The point is, there are scenarios where you could be a RDM and fulfill whatever role you were invited to fill. Will you be the best at it? No. That's always been the case with RDM. How are you just figuring that out now? Why did it take you so long to realize that?

The problem stems from a dwindling number of roles RDM can fill in the current metagame, as well as some roles being outright eliminated.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#162 Jul 07 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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And that my friend, is a personal problem. RCD claims to have gone against the crowd with RDM melee his entire career. A RDM with a sword was instantly deemed a waste of bandwidth, so how is it now that he all of the sudden "cares" what others might think of him?


Because even in that capacity I was still providing some use to the party, Cure 4 was a big player, Refresh was pretty well a must have. Opening Skillchains for bigger DD to close with Black Mages and myself MABing them. Lots of that faded away and eventually RDM became the haste refresh bot with Cure 4 when the tank got DA'd. The simple matter of fact, none of what RDM offers now is really of any use. Any /WHM can fill the extra haste cure 4 role refresh isn't even worth mentioning. RDM does not offer an practical solution to anything.

Quote:
No one is saying that RDM outweighs anything. The point is, there are scenarios where you could be a RDM and fulfill whatever role you were invited to fill.
That is rich ok come proc for us Alma, oh you only have 2 procs, we need a BLM, come heal for us, oh you only have cure 4 we really need cure 5 this guy can hit like a truck, come enfeeble for us....ha ha sike we don't need enfeebles, oh great melee you have 3 (more depending on sub.) potential procs, Ill go get on my DRK or PLD then we'll have more covered.

RDM can not fullfill any role, it is useful in a small amount of situations and thats it.

Please stop living in a fantasy world.

The only thing I would invite a RDM for now is to hold extra pop items.






Edited, Jul 7th 2011 5:27pm by rdmcandie
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#163 Jul 07 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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I just bought a wireless card for my PC and I'm set to start playing again today.

Honest question now...... what's the cheapest bandwagon job for an 8-year career RDM to start fresh with?
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#164 Jul 07 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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probably whm since you have most of the relevant spells, and AM and T4's are gettin pretty costly if you go BLM. If mine wasn't already at 60 id likely have not touched it.
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#165 Jul 07 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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I was thinking the same thing before you replied, that or BLU.
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#166 Jul 07 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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WHM would definitely be the faster track to getting back on your feet. BLU will at least hamper your progress in both skilling up and farming spells, and is ultimately more gear dependent to play well. Light Staff and Noble's is an easy start for WHM, with Empyrean upgrades coming easily enough if you try for 'em. Honestly, the hardest thing for a WHM to get, aside from a Roundel Earring, would be a Cure Potency magian staff. **** lightsday/weather.

While not "the best" atma combo when I'm on WHM, I use Minikin, Rescuer, and Ambition. 15 Refresh, a good Fast Cast bump on top of Cure Clogs/Merits/other gear, 10% cure potency, and a movement speed boost (Screw you, Tiamat). The downside of these atmas for a fresh starter would be Rescuer requiring a Dynamis-Xarc clear and Ambition beating ASA.

For BLU, my basic combo is usually Minikin, Razed Ruin, and Voracious Violet. However, BLU has so many other niche builds that things like Cosmos, Blinding Horn, Lion, Ultimate, and so on can creep up on you on as needs. You can't really go wrong with either job once you have them up to speed, though.
#167 Jul 07 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Cid wrote:

You're going to need to define those two concepts and be very specific with your wording, because they appear synonymous.


Ok, no problem. First I'll start off using RL examples, then transition to FFXI terms.

When people say that someone is a "Master" of something, they are referring to that person being an expert at that something. In other words, if it can be done, he can do it or learn to do so relatively quickly.

People can argue that Michael Jordan has mastered Basketball. Now take that concept of MJ and his basketball skills. Now take you and your friends playing ball on the court and you're short of one person. You look at the remaining people left wanting to play. Since you're want to win, you're going to pick the best person of the remaining people. Now, unless that person has skills relatively close to MJ, you can not call your friend a Master of Basketball. He's simply just the best choice to pick out of the bunch to choose from.

Now, in reference to FFXI, I'll admit that a lot has changed since the tier II merits, but that only references the focuses of RDM in the history of RDM.

If you look at every single job in the game with their mastery and compare it to RDM and it's supposedly "mastery", you will see a HUGE difference.

Let's just take a look at WHM and BLM.

There's basic things to take in consideration.

Premier spells - Spells that the job gets first.
Job Only Spells - Self explanatory
Job abilities - abilities that support a mastery
Job traits- traits that support a mastery
gear- gear that supports a mastery

Let's take a look at some of these.

For WHM: IIRC, WHM is premier for every healing/aiding spell. Most of those are WHM only and receives healing abilities/traits starting at level 15.

For BLM: IIRC, BLM is premier for every elemental spell for the exception of a few Tier IV spells. All AoE elemental spells are BLM only and receives traits/abilities as low as level 15.

Now, for the lovely RDM.

Premier spells: IIRC-Dia/Dia II,
Job only: IIRC- phalanx, gravity, level 75 tier II spells(blind, slow, paralyze, dia, bio, phalanx)... BLM even has an entire elemental enfeebling spells which is more than what RDM has.

Job abilities- Convert level 40, Composure level 50 (added in years later) Saboteur level 83.
Job traits- Various traits from MAB, MDB,Clear Mind, Fast cast and later added traits, tranquil heart, shield mastery.

As you can see, no act of specialty didn't start occurring till years after RDM was about. Even then, none of that doesn't start till AFTER level 75, where all of the TRUE masters stick out from the first 20 levels.

The only solo benefiting spell that is premier to RDM is refresh. All of the other spells are premier to other jobs, which means RDM isn't the MASTER of them. So, how can you label a job who hasn't mastered anything in reference to soloing except for refresh and convert to be the Master of it?

The answer: it isn't. RDM is your friend on the court that isn't a Michael Jordan, but he's better than other competition.
Gear- Relic/AF gear support various skills.


The bottom line is that RDM is not the Master of Solo, but was just an idea job for the job. The reality is, many other jobs could/can solo NMs as well. People just flocked to RDM for the same reason why RCD dumped RDM.
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#168 Jul 07 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
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BLU is also another good Choice but is very time consuming. WHM is probably the easiest.


Quote:
People just flocked to RDM for the same reason why RCD dumped RDM.


But i didn't dump RDM, I simply leveled jobs that allow me to finish other **** faster so I can get more use from my RDM. I am glad you still fail hard at reading Alma. Unfortunately outside of brewing (really any job is good at this) RDM has no use inside abyssea. Now outside of abyssea it does....(of course 90% of outside abyssea can be solo'd by pretty much any job now.)

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 8:20pm by rdmcandie
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#169 Jul 07 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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RCD wrote:
Because even in that capacity I was still providing some use to the party, Cure 4 was a big player, Refresh was pretty well a must have. Opening Skillchains for bigger DD to close with Black Mages and myself MABing them. Lots of that faded away and eventually RDM became the haste refresh bot with Cure 4 when the tank got DA'd. The simple matter of fact, none of what RDM offers now is really of any use. Any /WHM can fill the extra haste cure 4 role refresh isn't even worth mentioning. RDM does not offer an practical solution to anything.


I'm not sure who you think you're fooling.

During the time when people were doing skill chains and magic bursts, it was a sin for a RDM to pull out their sword. It didn't matter how much damage you were adding. The argument was that you weren't balancing out your healing/link controlling/enfeebling duties/etc and that no one has EVER seen a RDM that was able to balance them. In their eyes, you weren't doing anything but taking away from your "Mage duties". If you had your sword out, you were missing out from the light staff, you were feeding TP to the mobs, you weren't doing this, you were doing that and the list went on and on.

What really happened is that you convinced yourself that you were contributing because you were doing more than what you were expected to do. The reality is, the only reason why you weren't booted was because you were a RDM. I once was meleing and main healing, I got dc'd and was instantly replaced. I asked them to tell me what I did wrong. Did I miss a haste? Did I miss a cure? The only explanation was that I pulled out my sword. They even admitted after I pointed that out that I was doing my job.

During the TP burn phase of FFXI, RDM was still able to do what you were doing with skill chains and Magic Bursts, it just became much more difficult. Now that everyone has Refresh and Haste, it makes it that much easier to continue what you were doing all along. When my LS farm TE and light, I would close a skill chain with a Melee for 1k+ damage immediately followed by a 600+ MB. That is NO DIFFERENT than the what you were doing all along. So, I ask, why the change of heart?

RCD wrote:
That is rich ok come proc for us Alma, oh you only have 2 procs, we need a BLM, come heal for us, oh you only have cure 4 we really need cure 5 this guy can hit like a truck, come enfeeble for us....ha ha sike we don't need enfeebles, oh great melee you have 3 (more depending on sub.) potential procs, Ill go get on my DRK or PLD then we'll have more covered.

RDM can not fullfill any role, it is useful in a small amount of situations and thats it.

Please stop living in a fantasy world.

The only thing I would invite a RDM for now is to hold extra pop items.


You're right, I must have being fantasizing my role in my LS. I do recall curing/raising/nuking/etc in my LS. Could my WHM done a better job? Of course, but not only does that not take away from my input, that has ALWAYS been the case. WHM was always a better healer.

You talk about RDM being useless. There's been plenty of NMs that my LS would fight where at least 50% of the people are just standing around. There's like 4 people on the NM and everyone else is just there, doing absolutely nothing. Does my LS suck? Probably, I haven't been playing, but the point is that everyone there will not be the BEST desired job, which leads me to the next point.

*******************************************************************

The whole purpose of adding procs was to allow every job to have more of a role, to get rid of the TP burns that only allowed the most uberest DDs, haste-bot RDM and **** BRDs. If you stop inviting/playing jobs because they don't have the "most possible procs", you're reinventing the same exact scenario that SE was trying to get away from in the first place and people openly and constantly complained about.

Fortunately, SE made it so people can low-man to prevent people like you from pigeon holing the game to only specific jobs again.

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#170 Jul 07 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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RCD wrote:
But i didn't dump RDM, I simply leveled jobs that allow me to finish other sh*t faster so I can get more use from my RDM. I am glad you still fail hard at reading Alma. Unfortunately outside of brewing (really any job is good at this) RDM has no use inside abyssea. Now outside of abyssea it does....(of course 90% of outside abyssea can be solo'd by pretty much any job now.)


So if you still play with a job that is "useless", then what's your point? How is it "smart" to play with BLU or DNC instead of RDM for those 2 extra kills, when you still play with a useless job? Either you don't play with RDM or RDM isn't useless. So which one is it?

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 3:30am by Almalieque
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

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#171 Jul 07 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
lots of stuff


I find your definitions to be a bit contrived and skewed to support your argument, but even using your own definitions I find the conclusions you draw to be even more skewed. You say all the "masters" break away and start showing their stuff by level 20, yet here's RDM waltzing in with Gravity at level 21 but not making the cut for some reason.

I disagree with your definition and conclusion in the strongest possible terms. I don't think we have anything more to discuss unless we want to just hurl insults at each other for another few pages.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#172 Jul 07 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
lots of stuff


I find your definitions to be a bit contrived and skewed to support your argument, but even using your own definitions I find the conclusions you draw to be even more skewed. You say all the "masters" break away and start showing their stuff by level 20, yet here's RDM waltzing in with Gravity at level 21 but not making the cut for some reason.

I disagree with your definition and conclusion in the strongest possible terms. I don't think we have anything more to discuss unless we want to just hurl insults at each other for another few pages.


Way to completely misunderstand. I just said level 20 as an example and in any case, both WHM and BLM get their seals at level 15. RDM get's it's seal at level 83. RDM starts the game off with dia at level 1, so obviously I wasn't discussing a spell. The RDM only and premier spells are so far apart that even if RDM had them all under the level of 10, it wouldn't make a difference.

As a result, Gravity being level 21 doesn't change anything. RDM simply isn't the "master" in anything. I didn't just randomly pick stuff out to support my claim.

Those are what make the jobs what they are. That's why MNKs had a hissy fit when PUPs had an upgrade in hand-to-hand. Why? Because MNKs were supposed to be the "Masters" of Hand to Hand combat.

There might be a few exceptions, such as the shift in NIN to tank, but for the most part, every job fits this. I say "Most", because I'm not going to look up every job.

You can live in denial all you want, but you can't claim that RDM is a "Master" in anything if he learns every spell after another job and only has 2 job only enfeebling spells in a span of 75 levels with BLM having at least 6.

I'm not skewing anything. I gave credit that after the implementation of Tier II merits, there was a slight shift of focus.
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#173 Jul 07 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think you understand the words you are using.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#174 Jul 08 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Default
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I don't think you understand the words you are using.


She doesn't understand a **** thing about the game, and thinks arguing semantics (poorly) is a good way of distracting from that. Seriously, there's a 'substantial difference' between the 'master' of something, and the 'best choice' for something? BST is the 'master' of soloing, moreso than RDM? Dear lord, that is some of the stupidest sh*t I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

You think the concept of defensed consists of just Phalanx and Protect? No, defense is a broad category that encompasses many, many things. Kiting? Defensive. Paralyze? Defensive. Utsusemi? Defensive. Hell, even Convert can be considered defensive in some situations. As for Enfeebling magic? The people **** about how worthless enfeebling magic is are talking about party situations in Abyssea where you have a tank and a WHM; and yes, they are quite right, enfeebling magic very rarely makes or breaks those fights given baseline competence/gear/atmas from the tank/mage. As for soloing? If you think Slow, Paralyze, Addle, Poison, and Bio are worthless, well, no, they are essential. There's a lot of fights where kiting is either worthless or even counterproductive; you win by straight-tanking with shadows and nuking after casting Ichi when Ni will be up in time. Without enfeebles, nope, you die. Or did you know that the casting speed down part of Addle can make the difference between outrunning a spell and getting killed? No, I'm guessing not.

Quote:
You can live in denial all you want, but you can't claim that RDM is a "Master" in anything if he learns every spell after another job and only has 2 job only enfeebling spells in a span of 75 levels with BLM having at least 6.


See, this is what I'm talking about. You're looking at the spell list and drawing your conclusions. The spell list! Not taking into account Fast Cast V, Magic Attack/Defense Bonus, unparalleled subjob flexibility, or any of the bonuses afforded to RDM by the wide variety of powerful gear available to it. The spell list! You think the fact that most of RDM's spells are shared amongst the 19 other jobs matters, and fail to notice that RDM is the only one that possesses them all from their main job.

The spell list!!!

You keep confusing obvious sh*t like this, and you wonder why I say you're clueless.

To sum it up, If this is what you truly believe:

Quote:
As for not knowing about my main job, I'm merely comparing on strategy back in the Avesta days. I'm not sure if anything has changed, but in the videos that I've seen, it consisted of DoT, kite, nuke. Given that strategy, the only thing that favored RDM was refresh/convert. Now, if you're soloing differently, i.e. melee, then of course BLM will not compare.


...then you don't know a god **** thing about how a competent RDM operates.

Alma, you can type as many long-winded diatribes in which you spin so hard I get dizzy just reading it as you want, but in the end, you're still @#%^ing retarded.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 3:39am by LyltiaofLakshmi

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 3:55am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#175 Jul 08 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Decent
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So if you still play with a job that is "useless", then what's your point? How is it "smart" to play with BLU or DNC instead of RDM for those 2 extra kills, when you still play with a useless job? Either you don't play with RDM or RDM isn't useless. So which one is it?


No i don't play a job that is useless in ABYSSEA anymore. Outside of abyssea everything I have is useful, RDM is one of the most useful jobs to bring to void watch. It lowers incoming damage (enfeebles) it increases outgoing damage (haste dia refreshII) it Directly Heals and Indirectly heals (RefreshII). Anyone who does not bring a RDM to a NON-ABYSSEA related event is stupid. Anyone who honestly thinks they contribute on RDM in Abyssea is stupid.

You know what I was stupid once too, it happens, but you can try as much as you want to make this about me, in the end Alma, it is you and Hyrist who are the douchebags, leeches. Its cool live with you RDM hardon by my calcs of how you both talk about this game, you have at least another 3 years before you realize that RDM is mostly useless. **** when I first played RDM it was the most useless job in the game (but I doubt you recall RDM with Divine magic and not its other tricks.) Honestly I am quite confident in saying you know nothing of the game, **** you can't even read plain english for Christ sakes.
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#176 Jul 08 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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I guess it's been a while since the soloist **** sprung up.

Hint: There is no best soloist, as different mobs can require different tactics where even RDM's bag of tricks mean nothing.
#177 Jul 08 2011 at 3:55 AM Rating: Default
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Hint: There is no best soloist, as different mobs can require different tactics where even RDM's bag of tricks mean nothing.


...so I guess the fact that RDM has (by far) the largest number of feasible strategies available to solo (by far) the largest number of NMs doesn't count for anything?

/eyeroll
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#178 Jul 08 2011 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
I don't think you understand the words you are using.


I think you're in denial. All you have said is "Na-uh" without any explanation or counter... probably because there isn't one.

Lyltiao wrote:
She doesn't understand a **** thing about the game, and thinks arguing semantics (poorly) is a good way of distracting from that. Seriously, there's a 'substantial difference' between the 'master' of something, and the 'best choice' for something? BST is the 'master' of soloing, moreso than RDM? Dear lord, that is some of the stupidest sh*t I have ever had the misfortune of reading.


If you're referring to me, I'm a male, not a female and this has nothing to do with semantics but concept. You can replace "master" with whatever word you want to use. The fact is, RDM isn't as good in any area prior to level 75 with merits as any other job is good in their specialized area.

I'll admit that BST might be of a stretch, but I was referencing to the concept of normal mob solo. I don't think those higher mobs were designed to be soloed. In that reference, of course RDM out weighs BST. In reference to 1 to 75, XP mobs, BST was designed to be the master of solo. Rather or not it actually is and became the "ninja tank", I can't say.

Lyltiao wrote:
You think the concept of defensed consists of just Phalanx and Protect? No, defense is a broad category that encompasses many, many things. Kiting? Defensive. Paralyze? Defensive. Utsusemi? Defensive.


None of which RDM is the *master* of. Look, I'm not saying that RDM can't do it, I'm just purely looking at the design of the job and making a comparison to how other jobs were designed.

Lyltiao wrote:
As for Enfeebling magic? The people **** about how worthless enfeebling magic is are talking about party situations in Abyssea where you have a tank and a WHM; and yes, they are quite right, enfeebling magic very rarely makes or breaks those fights given baseline competence/gear/atmas from the tank/mage. As for soloing? If you think Slow, Paralyze, Addle, Poison, and Bio are worthless, well, no, they are essential.


I've already acknowledged tier II spells and above as a shift towards RDM enfeebling. 75 (without mertis) and below, its a whole other ball game. Yes, those spells are beneficial, but any job can cast them. The only advantage RDM has over any other job is their A+ in enfeebling. That difference is no different than then nerfs you get when you sub any job, i.e. DNC.

I'm not sure how long you've been playing the game, but there use to be a ton of complaints of RDMs with pimped out enfeebling getting resisted and some /whm landing a spell.

Lyltiao wrote:
There's a lot of fights where kiting is either worthless or even counterproductive; you win by straight-tanking with shadows and nuking after casting Ichi when Ni will be up in time.


And that's a scenario where RDM might shine. That doesn't make it the master of anything, other than probably that scenario.

Lyltiao wrote:
Without enfeebles, nope, you die. Or did you know that the casting speed down part of Addle can make the difference between outrunning a spell and getting killed? No, I'm guessing not.


Isn't Addle past level 75? Oh, ok. thanks...

Lyltiao wrote:
See, this is what I'm talking about. You're looking at the spell list and drawing your conclusions. The spell list! Not taking into account Fast Cast V, Magic Attack/Defense Bonus, unparalleled subjob flexibility, or any of the bonuses afforded to RDM by the wide variety of powerful gear available to it. The spell list! You think the fact that most of RDM's spells are shared amongst the 19 other jobs matters, and fail to notice that RDM is the only one that possesses them all from their main job.

The spell list!!!

You keep confusing obvious sh*t like this, and you wonder why I say you're clueless.


Your failure to read is your own fault. I listed an entire list where spells was only PART of that list. That response was in question to a specific spell, gravity. Why don't you go back read my entire list of things that included EVERYTHING that you just posted to include gear, abilities, traits, etc. In every case, RDM doesn't master it.

Lyltiao wrote:
..then you don't know a god **** thing about how a competent RDM operates.

Alma, you can type as many long-winded diatribes in which you spin so hard I get dizzy just reading it as you want, but in the end, you're still @#%^ing retarded.


It's actually pretty common sense. If RDM doesn't start shining in a certain area till level 75 with merits, then RDM obviously wasn't a master of it prior to that point. SE might be making some changes towards that direction, but you can't go around proclaiming that the design of RDM is focused on being the MASTER of SOLO. Most of the **** given to RDM lately was to give RDM a role in a party, not solo. Your ability to use what's given in a solo environment is just kudos to you.

That's why the RDM-melee udpate took forever to come out. There had to be a balance between solo and party. There had to be a way to buff RDM melee in a party but not increase it's already solo ability. That's why there's a trade off when using composure. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the biggest hate tools for RDM tanking were nerfed, am I right?

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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#179 Jul 08 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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RCD wrote:
RDM is one of the most useful jobs


Understood. I'm not even going to go back and quote you implying that RDM was practically useless outside Abyssea also, because you know what you said. As a result, I'll just quote this.

RCD wrote:
You know what I was stupid once too, it happens, but you can try as much as you want to make this about me, in the end Alma, it is you and Hyrist who are the douchebags, leeches. Its cool live with you RDM hardon by my calcs of how you both talk about this game, you have at least another 3 years before you realize that RDM is mostly useless. **** when I first played RDM it was the most useless job in the game (but I doubt you recall RDM with Divine magic and not its other tricks.) Honestly I am quite confident in saying you know nothing of the game, **** you can't even read plain english for Christ sakes.


Oh, it's all about you and showed you so in the other post I wrote about in your role as the game changed. In abyssea, I'm doing the same exact that I wanted to do all of the years before, except it's much easier. You haven't shown how it was any different. All you're doing is creating this elitest environment that everyone hated and what SE tried to get us away from.

You don't have to accept it, but that's the truth. RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you completely useless.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#180 Jul 08 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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You don't have to accept it, but that's the truth. RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you completely useless.


Im done, its like talking at a wall, at least Hyrist left when it was shown he was wrong. I dont care what you do for fun, at least be honest with yourself about it.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 8:46am by rdmcandie

Until Alma understands the difference between Completely and Mostly, and Pratically, and Ultimately I can't do it anymore, just to much stupid for me to handle.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 8:48am by rdmcandie
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#181 Jul 08 2011 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:

You don't have to accept it, but that's the truth. RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you completely useless.


Im done, its like talking at a wall, at least Hyrist left when it was shown he was wrong. I dont care what you do for fun, at least be honest with yourself about it.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 8:46am by rdmcandie

Until Alma understands the difference between Completely and Mostly, and Pratically, and Ultimately I can't do it anymore, just to much stupid for me to handle.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 8:48am by rdmcandie


First of all, you were the one who made comments prior to making those clarifications. I understood your clarifications but continued to use the same words, but not in a literal sense. BUT, for you, let me rephrase it so you can understand.

RDM might have lost more value in Abyssea in comparison to nonAbyssea, but not having the most procs doesn't make you in type of useless in any way.


P.S. Even overlooking that, you haven't even addressed the fact that nothing has changed for RDM. So this little cop out of "that's not the right word" has zero impact on the fact that nothing for RDM has changed. You're doing the same stuff in parties that you were years ago. So your entire accusation of any form of uselessness is inaccurate.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#182 Jul 08 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

I'll admit that BST might be of a stretch, but I was referencing to the concept of normal mob solo.

In which case I'm going to go ahead and point out that Red Mage becomes a **** monster at level 33 when it gets Phalanx. At level 41 it picks up Refresh and can no longer be defeated by normal mobs. How that doesn't scream Solo to you is beyond my comprehension.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#183 Jul 08 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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Hint: There is no best soloist, as different mobs can require different tactics where even RDM's bag of tricks mean nothing.


...so I guess the fact that RDM has (by far) the largest number of feasible strategies available to solo (by far) the largest number of NMs doesn't count for anything?

/eyeroll


No, your bigger issue is meting out the fine line of an actual difficult solo where the tools matter. Arguably anything we can melee doesn't matter and could probably be nuked down anyway. Thus, the hardest challenges are the nuke solos, where Utsusemi is rarely needed if you know what you're doing, meaning BLM/RDM and SCH/RDM are just as good, if not better, with Grav/Bind if applicable, longevity through Refresh/Sublimation and Convert, and Fast Cast equivalents through skills and gear that give RDM a run for its money.

I really hope I don't have to dignify pet solos or even touch on the bull that is pinning or DoT/Zone or Zombie tactics.

Bluntly, I hate the whole solo argument as its used against us any time we dare ask for a needed buff. Calling RDM the master soloist nowadays is folly, even if limiting it to just player tools. No, SE's gone rather above and beyond to further curb this behavior with immunities, flee speeds, high rates of DA/TA, regain/regen, shadow bypassing moves, mutes, auras, rage timers, fight times/area restrictions (Think Voidwatch or ANNM), and then some. To cling to this antiquated sense of worth is the real eyerolling activity, nor should it be tolerated from the dev perspective of creating monsters balanced toward a party or alliance. I'm sorry if some RDMs thrived on the play style, but lets not pretend that seeing one solo wasn't like seeing them all.
#184 Jul 08 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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Thus, the hardest challenges are the nuke solos, where Utsusemi is rarely needed if you know what you're doing, meaning BLM/RDM and SCH/RDM are just as good, if not better, with Grav/Bind if applicable, longevity through Refresh/Sublimation and Convert, and Fast Cast equivalents through skills and gear that give RDM a run for its money.


You're begging to get lumped in with Alma with this nonsense. You think the hardest challenges are ones where Utsusemi is rarely needed, or that Sublimation might actually be useful for RDM? Think before you post.

Quote:
No, SE's gone rather above and beyond to further curb this behavior with immunities, flee speeds, high rates of DA/TA, regain/regen, shadow bypassing moves, mutes, auras, rage timers, fight times/area restrictions (Think Voidwatch or ANNM), and then some.


And in lots of cases, enterprising RDMs have risen to the challenge and figured out viable strategies to counter a lot of those things. Anyway, you make it sound like a bad thing; it would've become boring long ago if every NM could be taken out with Bind/Gravity/Nukes.

Quote:
I'm sorry if some RDMs thrived on the play style, but lets not pretend that seeing one solo wasn't like seeing them all.


It sounds to me like you haven't seen much of anything.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#185 Jul 08 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
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Oh and Alma? Just stop. Your argument boils down to this:

"RDM isn't the master of anything because SE doesn't give it a JT at level 30 called 'Solo Mastery'."

Hence, you're retarded.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#186 Jul 08 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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It sounds to me like you haven't seen much of anything.


Enlighten me, then, of these awesome new solos where, cap for cap, only RDMs could achieve.

Of late, the only new thing I saw was some JP soloing Divine Might. Seeing how that's part of the cap increase working in our favor in making level 75 content easier, I question the ultimate relevance. Even then, his fight would've been a bust if EV used Benediction during his Chainspell.
#187 Jul 08 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'll admit that BST might be of a stretch, but I was referencing to the concept of normal mob solo.

In which case I'm going to go ahead and point out that Red Mage becomes a **** monster at level 33 when it gets Phalanx. At level 41 it picks up Refresh and can no longer be defeated by normal mobs. How that doesn't scream Solo to you is beyond my comprehension.


Phalanx? Yes... Refresh? No. You're confusing things that are helpful for solo with things that are FOR solo. The fact that Phalanx is a self cast spell and Refresh isn't, supports that claim. Unless SE decides to change how the spell works depending on how many people are in your party, like how company sword does, it will work the same way.

From my knowledge, SE doesn't differentiate from a RDM in an alliance casting slow vs a RDM by itself casting slow. That's when you start differentiating between being the master of something vs being the best option to do so.

Phalanx is a legitimate RDM-solo tool. I would also include Gravity, but the list becomes very shaky after that. If you consider that being a "Master of Solo", then you must agree that RDM is a "Master of Swordsmanship" as well. I mean, RDM is a swordsman by class isn't it?

Seriha wrote:
No, your bigger issue is meting out the fine line of an actual difficult solo where the tools matter. Arguably anything we can melee doesn't matter and could probably be nuked down anyway. Thus, the hardest challenges are the nuke solos, where Utsusemi is rarely needed if you know what you're doing, meaning BLM/RDM and SCH/RDM are just as good, if not better, with Grav/Bind if applicable, longevity through Refresh/Sublimation and Convert, and Fast Cast equivalents through skills and gear that give RDM a run for its money.

I really hope I don't have to dignify pet solos or even touch on the bull that is pinning or DoT/Zone or Zombie tactics.

Bluntly, I hate the whole solo argument as its used against us any time we dare ask for a needed buff. Calling RDM the master soloist nowadays is folly, even if limiting it to just player tools. No, SE's gone rather above and beyond to further curb this behavior with immunities, flee speeds, high rates of DA/TA, regain/regen, shadow bypassing moves, mutes, auras, rage timers, fight times/area restrictions (Think Voidwatch or ANNM), and then some. To cling to this antiquated sense of worth is the real eyerolling activity, nor should it be tolerated from the dev perspective of creating monsters balanced toward a party or alliance. I'm sorry if some RDMs thrived on the play style, but lets not pretend that seeing one solo wasn't like seeing them all.



Exactly this.. RDMs being able to solo is/was more of a mob design than RDM design.

Lyltia wrote:
Oh and Alma? Just stop. Your argument boils down to this:

"RDM isn't the master of anything because SE doesn't give it a JT at level 30 called 'Solo Mastery'."

Hence, you're retarded.


Just because you fail at reading comprehension, that isn't my fault. If you really wanted RDM to be a "solo-master", there are plenty of tools to make that happen. Those tools are simply not there. Everything that people USES to solo is mastered by other jobs. RDMs CAN solo, yes, but you have to quit this **** like RDM was designed to solo gods, etc. People made it work just like people made NIN, BRD and RDM tanks work. Like Seriha mentioned, people can make other jobs work as well, they just don't try, because FFXI is conformist.

Simply comparing RDM to every other job blatantly says that RDM is a generalist and not a specialist. You or no one else here has proven otherwise.

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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#188 Jul 08 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Default
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Simply comparing RDM to every other job blatantly says that RDM is a generalist and not a specialist. You or no one else here has proven otherwise.


And you fail to see that this very thing is precisely what makes RDM the best soloist; many of RDMs solos are also possible using other job/subjob combinations, but since RDM possesses such a varied skillset, it can do them all; and the hardest, RDM-only solos are a textbook example of the whole being more than the sum of its' parts. If you are familiar with the Venn Diagram, perhaps drawing one would help you understand this better.

Quote:
Enlighten me, then, of these awesome new solos where, cap for cap, only RDMs could achieve.


Uh, like, half of Abyssea?

Also, discounting solos that are old content made less threatening by the cap increases isn't really a valid train of thought, given that there is so little new 75+ content outside of Abyssea. Besides, how is soloing Divine Might not impressive in any respect? As you pointed out, had EV used Benediction in that video, things would've gone much differently, so I'd hardly say that level 90 has made it easymode for a soloist.

As for me? The latest thing I've done on RDM would be KSNM99 Behemoth. I never tried it at 75, but given that it took me 20+ minutes at 90, I highly doubt it would've been possible; and I see no way any other job could pull it off, either. I do intend to pit my RDM against some VWNMs eventually, but it's just not a priority at the moment, given that the rewards suck, and we still have 4 Empyreans and a Relic in varying stages of completion that need our attention. One of these days!
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#189 Jul 09 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'll admit that BST might be of a stretch, but I was referencing to the concept of normal mob solo.

In which case I'm going to go ahead and point out that Red Mage becomes a **** monster at level 33 when it gets Phalanx. At level 41 it picks up Refresh and can no longer be defeated by normal mobs. How that doesn't scream Solo to you is beyond my comprehension.


Phalanx? Yes... Refresh? No. You're confusing things that are helpful for solo with things that are FOR solo.

There's no **** difference.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#190 Jul 09 2011 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
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There's no **** difference.


Or, if we wanted to get really precise, Phalanx is for tanking, or for use with Accession. Refresh is for any situation in which you will run out of MP before you can /heal or otherwise restore your MP via Convert, meds, etc. It just so happens that both can be (and pretty much always are) applicable when soloing. This is what I've been talking about Alma; you want everything to be nice and neat in black and white, and RDM is a wide, gray expanse. I can't fathom how you can possibly enjoy playing the job with such narrow, restricting (and for the most part, laughably wrong) ideas about it.

Also, you'd think that, considering how bad he is at semantics, he wouldn't want to play so badly. Then again, logic doesn't seem to be his strong point, so I suppose that explains it.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#191 Jul 09 2011 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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Uh, like, half of Abyssea?


Be more specific. Remember, only RDM could do it, and ideally without pinning, zombie tactics, or DoT/Conflux warping.

Edit: And unless I counted wrong, all the Abyssea zones boast 245 NMs (including stuff like VNMs and the wandering avatars). So you've got at least 120 monsters to propagate your list with that nobody else could hope to do.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 7:43am by Seriha
#192 Jul 09 2011 at 7:06 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
And you fail to see that this very thing is precisely what makes RDM the best soloist; many of RDMs solos are also possible using other job/subjob combinations, but since RDM possesses such a varied skillset, it can do them all; and the hardest, RDM-only solos are a textbook example of the whole being more than the sum of its' parts. If you are familiar with the Venn Diagram, perhaps drawing one would help you understand this better.


I already mentioned that if you're not differentiating best class suited for the job and the "Master" of that job, then there's no need for us to be talking.

NIN wasn't ever a tank job, but people utilized it because it was the optimal job for the task. PLD was always the "Master of Tanking", just depending on what you're doing, PLD may not be idea. Similar with Thf tanking.

Look at BRD. People realized that BRD had some tools that optimized BRD to pull in TP Burns. That doesn't make BRD the "Master of Pulling". People just thought outside the box and made things work. The problem is, only very few people think outside the box and everyone else just follow.

Cid wrote:

There's no **** difference.


Only if you don't think there's a difference between Gain spells and Boost spells, Protect spells and protectra spells, phalanx and phalanx II, bar spells and bar-a spells, etc.

There's a difference.

Lylthia wrote:
Or, if we wanted to get really precise, Phalanx is for tanking, or for use with Accession. Refresh is for any situation in which you will run out of MP before you can /heal or otherwise restore your MP via Convert, meds, etc. .

Also, you'd think that, considering how bad he is at semantics, he wouldn't want to play so badly. Then again, logic doesn't seem to be his strong point, so I suppose that explains it.


Tanking is part of solo. The difference is, hate control is also another very important aspect of tanking. So unless they're hate control spells/traits/etc., it'll be hard to say that spell was for "tanking".

Lylthia wrote:
It just so happens that both can be (and pretty much always are) applicable when soloing. This is what I've been talking about Alma; you want everything to be nice and neat in black and white, and RDM is a wide, gray expanse. I can't fathom how you can possibly enjoy playing the job with such narrow, restricting (and for the most part, laughably wrong) ideas about it


Ironically, you're the one who's doing that. My whole argument is that nothing is black and white. It's all gray. That's what makes RDM a generalist. When you start acting like RDM is the "Master" of x,y or z, then it's you that is narrowing down the job to specific roles. I'm arguing that RDM can do an array of things and these spells,abilities, etc. were not necessarily designed specifically for "Tanking" or "soloing", but for playing and depending on what you're doing, those same spells and abilities can be used various ways.

It's been apparent that you don't even know what you're arguing against.
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Almalieque wrote:

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#193 Jul 09 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Look at BRD. People realized that BRD had some tools that optimized BRD to pull in TP Burns.


Um BRD was always a good puller. The only issue that plauged BRD was that it had to compete with the maybe 1 open party slot of parties back in the day. RDM or BRD/WHM, WHM and BLM, THF, TANK Distortion WS DD. When BLM and WHM were dropped because SE significantly lowered the party requirements for mobs and made WHM overkill, and BLM in large part useless, this gave BRD its default spot in ToAU.

(have you only been playing since ToAU if so this would explain your clear misunderstanding about a lot of things, in particular concerning RDM).

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 9:24am by rdmcandie
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#194 Jul 09 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Default
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Be more specific. Remember, only RDM could do it, and ideally without pinning, zombie tactics, or DoT/Conflux warping.

Edit: And unless I counted wrong, all the Abyssea zones boast 245 NMs (including stuff like VNMs and the wandering avatars). So you've got at least 120 monsters to propagate your list with that nobody else could hope to do.


/sigh... clearly an exaggeration, which I'm sure you know; but I guess I trapped myself there, so well played, I guess. Honestly, once procs got figured out and it became obvious that RDM solos in Abyssea were just a giant waste of time, I stopped doing them; otherwise, I'm sure I'd have a long list for you. I'll point you back to old-world VNMs for an example of the point, though; every single T2 was soloable at 75, some by straight-tanking, others by pinning, rest by kiting; and with a few exceptions, only RDM could pull them off, in spite of possessing most of the traits you pointed to that would supposedly make them immune to RDM.

I did manage to solo the Attohwa Caturae without a brew at 90 though, does that count?

Quote:
I already mentioned that if you're not differentiating best class suited for the job and the "Master" of that job, then there's no need for us to be talking.


Yes, please, just shut the **** up already with your arbitrary titles and rules already, nobody **** cares, seriously. **** I can't believe I wasted this much time arguing with you already; truly, a world-class troll. And before you decide to contest that, be aware that the alternative is retard, so choose carefully.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 10:29am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#195 Jul 09 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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truly, a world-class troll.


No even trolls know what they are taking about, they just argue theopposite side to troll. Alma isn't a troll because Alma seldom understands the words he uses let alone what others use. **** take a trip to the asylum, it usually ends with 18 people all telling alma he is wrong and here is why, an he will just stamp his foot and offer up another terrible analogy.

He doesn't even shut up if you agree with him.
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#196LyltiaofLakshmi, Posted: Jul 09 2011 at 12:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) True that, although I'll take your word on the Asylum; loading that page is never good for my blood pressure.
#197 Jul 09 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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/sigh... clearly an exaggeration


Which is basically why I'm throwing out the rebuttal because master soloist is an exaggeration in general. Good, yes, I won't refute, but definitely not best in all situations, and sometimes outright inferior.

Mentioning VNMs at 75 and pinning, however, gets a strike from me. Not only could other jobs do the same if they had some form of ranged attack, but the simple concept of making a mob take a u-turn by moving a step is asinine. So, while it might not be the same level of Wall of Justice cheese, the fact said solos could only be done in certain zones is rather indicative of its requirement. So, forgive for not considering that a notch in the job's belt, while at the same time remaining critical of SE for not nipping things like that sooner, if ever.

Just as people try and dub BST a solo job, we shouldn't be aspiring to a similar fate. Again, MMO, we play with people, things are designed to require people. If people don't want a job around, then yes, that is an indicator of a problem. Procs are part of RDM's problem for Abyssea, sure, but I've long been looking beyond that in terms of identity and pending mage homogenization with further cap increases. Elephant in the room, being who I am and all, but RDM's melee game was slipshod even before the cap increases, and it hasn't gotten any better by means of direct attention.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 2:43pm by Seriha
#198 Jul 09 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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Speaking of soloing, Culebre (the dragon dude in tahrongi). Any trick to this guy other than MDT MDB Earth Resist set up? Think imma give him a solo for my DNC DW Dagger.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 2:45pm by rdmcandie
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#199 Jul 09 2011 at 1:21 PM Rating: Default
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Which is basically why I'm throwing out the rebuttal because master soloist is an exaggeration in general. Good, yes, I won't refute, but definitely not best in all situations, and sometimes outright inferior.


Well, the way I see it, if I made a list of every single NM I could possibly solo on RDM, and then cross-referenced a similar list for each of the other 19 jobs, I would have to level more than one job to be able to solo as many NMs as RDM can(and gear them beyond Perle/Aurore/Teal). I also don't think there's any doubt that the most impressive solos are performed by RDM more often than not. To me, there's no question; if I want to level a job that excels at soloing, I'm going with RDM; hence, RDM's the best soloist. YMMV, as it clearly does, but I just don't see the logic behind any other conclusion.

You can say that it's definitely not best in all situations, and is sometimes outright inferior, and I totally agree; but again, compare it to the other 19 jobs, and tell me which one this applies to less than RDM.

Quote:
Mentioning VNMs at 75 and pinning, however, gets a strike from me. Not only could other jobs do the same if they had some form of ranged attack, but the simple concept of making a mob take a u-turn by moving a step is asinine.


Don't turn this into another "let's **** about pinning," nobody wants to have to read that sh*t for the thousandth time.. but for the record, only 3 of the 10 T2 VNMs absolutely required pinning to defeat. Yacumama and Fuereunke's Hundred Fists were just not survivable @75 otherwise, and Lamprey Lord is a cheating bastard; the other 7 could be defeated by conventional tactics with varying levels of difficulty, so don't write them all off on account of those three.

Capricornus: Straight tank, kite during Mighty Strikes
Erebus: Kite, eat aga3s with MDB/MDT set
Skuld/Urd: Kite around lake in Rolanberry Fields (Anyone that can pull this off, especially with Skuld, gets mad respect from me; it is not easy)
Farruca Fly: Straight tank or kite with Baraero set for Aeroga
Jyestha: Straight tank with Barpetrify/Barstone/Resist Petrify gear for Break
Shoggoth: Kite, poison potions and MDT for Chainspell

Quote:
Just as people try and dub BST a solo job, we shouldn't be aspiring to a similar fate. etc etc


There's no aspiration to be had, it's part and parcel of the job whether one wishes to acknoweldge it or not (as Alma has proven post after post). RDM is a mage that gets CureIV and Haste natively, it is in no danger of ever being marginalized to the extent that BST has been by the playerbase at large.

Quote:
Elephant in the room, being who I am and all, but RDM's melee game was slipshod even before the cap increases, and it hasn't gotten any better by means of direct attention.


Tired of this sh*t. Almace kicks the everlasting **** out of, well, pretty much every melee boost we've ever received, ever. And before I hear one word about 'and everyone has an Empyrean, amirite?' Enough. Empyreans are not hard. Even if you're a casual player with limited playtime, the time:reward ratio on that sword is far and away the best investment a RDM that is serious about meleeing can make in their character. All it takes is some patience, diligence, and one, maybe two friends to help you (or, if you happen to have NIN leveled, you can solo everything up to Sobek); and if you don't have those, shout and offer the +2 drops to people, it is the equivalent of catnip to the people who sit bored in Port Jeuno. No excuses at this point in the game, people, so I don't wanna hear them.

To put it in perspective, to those of you who waited in long lines and sat through hours upon hours of Dynamis for your D.Chapeau.. you will spend less time getting your Almace than you did being bored as sh*t in Dynamis for months/years (and the subsequent XP parties to recap from all that inevitable, Sleepga-induced death), and the reward is simply incomparable.

Quote:
Speaking of soloing, Culebre (the dragon dude in tahrongi). Any trick to this guy other than MDT MDB Earth Resist set up? Think imma give him a solo for my DNC DW Dagger.


Yeah man he's a joke, Shell V, Barstone, and a serviceable MDT set and you can't lose. Good luck!

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 3:40pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#200 Jul 09 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Note the direct attention. We didn't get Almace so much because SE was showing RDM love, we happened to get it because we're on the swords in general. Arguably we're the worst job on the weapon for lack of native traits and higher end gear.

As is, I'm sorry, but averaging maybe 180 of the sword per server going by the census does not reflect availability. It's a toy for us until SE rubs it into the face of everyone that purely backlining shouldn't be the only way to play the job (Our Emp armor REALLY didn't help with this). You're also far more likely to see groups and linkshells focusing on things like H2H, GA, and Katana since those jobs are also top-tier in Abyssea. Really, the best way to get an Almace is to be a BLU, and that's more because they bring unique procs to the table than people suddenly loving sword users.

Regardless, meaningful melee shouldn't have to wait until 90 on top of jumping through the hoops of creating the weapon. The fact it's a zero to hero comparison shows just how **** up the balance is right now.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 3:55pm by Seriha
#201 Jul 09 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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In other words, you people don't give a sh*t about actually gaining improvements to your gear, all you really want is a direct acknowledgment from SE that they really meant for RDM to be a super-awesome melee class from the beginning, our bad guys, we suck and you were totally right.

Although on the whole I kinda see why y'all are so **** off all the time; holding your breath for this long, and by my calculations, forever, I'd be **** too.

Quote:
It's a toy for us until SE rubs it into the face of everyone that purely backlining shouldn't be the only way to play the job (Our Emp armor REALLY didn't help with this)


It's far and away the best melee weapon you are going to see for a long, long time; and probably ever; and you, as a self-professed proponent of RDM melee, call it a 'toy'? @#%^ man, see above.

And... how in the **** do you figure that the Estoqueur+2 set REALLY doesn't help? You can now keep Composure up full time for the melee accuracy buff, and reduce your buff cycles by half! The biggest complaint I see in the RDM melee whining threads is that RDM can't compete in melee DPS because they're expected to spend so much time casting buffs; I fail to see how reducing that workload by almost 50% is REALLY not helping. I think SE listened and gave you exactly what you wanted; you just weren't paying attention, or haven't figured it out yet.

Quote:
Regardless, meaningful melee shouldn't have to wait until 90 on top of jumping through the hoops of creating the weapon. The fact it's a zero to hero comparison shows just how @#%^ed up the balance is right now.


And here is the other problem; you expect RDM, the jack of all trades and all that bullsh*t, the generalist, to be able to deal meaningful melee damage right out of the box, with little-to-no investment in gear. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, putting some effort into my character and seeing concrete (and with Almace, amazing) results, is immensely gratifying and pretty much 99% of the reason I play this game in the first place.

Oh hey, I missed this one:

Quote:
You're also far more likely to see groups and linkshells focusing on things like H2H, GA, and Katana since those jobs are also top-tier in Abyssea. Really, the best way to get an Almace is to be a BLU, and that's more because they bring unique procs to the table than people suddenly loving sword users.


Completely, totally, 100% irrelevant. For one, if you're doing Empyreans in a linkshell, you are being used and abused, no question at all. Second, if your group doesn't want to help you get the Empyrean of your choice in return for helping them with the Empyrean of their choice, they don't sound like very good people to me. I sure as **** didn't have to do any explaining for my Hvergelmir; I said "Hey, I wanna do Hvergelmir next" and my partner said "Word." My advice is find 1-2 good friends who you enjoy playing with, kick the Linkshells and 'Groups' to the curb, and do the **** thing. You'll all be a lot happier, and there's 100% less drama.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 4:20pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
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