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#52 Jun 28 2011 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
I dunno can't think of a single time i have died thinking man if only I had had another 100/150 HP. Ive died a lot to stupid things over theyears and it has never crossed my mind. But iv most certainly had the man if only I had MP for another nuke right now. Ive done alot of stuff and MP becomes HP a **** of a lot easier then HP becoming MP it seems. Or in the very least a **** of a lo more often and consistently.


That all depends on what you're doing. I've been in numerous scenarios as an Elvaan where I was down to less than 200 hp. Of course MP is much easier to be an issue because you can easily spam it without getting hate. Even then it's easy to make up for lost/low mp.

As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, hp means a lot. MP keeps you alive, but no HP means you're dead.
#53 Jun 28 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Default
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.
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#54 Jun 29 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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I'd still say the only valid argument to be made for a Race On Red Mage is which one looks the best to you.

It's an identity you are going to be assuming for many a year. Choosing it basted on stats then determine you don't like how it looks only gives you two options, Reroll, or .dat hack. Where as having problems with stats, just changes what gear you wear.
#55 Jun 29 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....
#56 Jun 30 2011 at 3:46 AM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....


If you have 3K MP and 0 HP there is probably a reason you are dead. #1 being you didnt cure yourself. #2 being you didnt even try and use convert to save your life (ya convert does work the other way as well.)

MP is the most important stat for any mage related job in the game period. Solo, Group, Frontline, Backline. If you don't understand why, then it explains why you are dead with 3K mp.
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#57 Jun 30 2011 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....


If you have 3K MP and 0 HP there is probably a reason you are dead. #1 being you didnt cure yourself. #2 being you didnt even try and use convert to save your life (ya convert does work the other way as well.)

MP is the most important stat for any mage related job in the game period. Solo, Group, Frontline, Backline. If you don't understand why, then it explains why you are dead with 3K mp.


So, I was right then? MP helps you stay alive but no HP means you're dead. Why did you feel the need to change that? I completely agree that MP is the most important thing for a mage, but the value of mp is situational just like everything else. I'm simply providing you a scenario where it would be more beneficial to be a race other than a Taru.

If you're meleeing solo, the goal is to be as less dependent on MP as possible. The goal is to outlive your opponent, not deal uber damage or cast it to death. With that being said, all I need are my composured buffs.

MP should only be necessary to "chain" mobs without resting, not actually killing the mobs. If I'm using a large percentage of my mp on each mob and having to constantly cure bomb myself, then maybe I'm doing something wrong or should fight another mob.

With Phalanx, Stoneskin, Cocoon, Sanguine Blade, Tacos, etc., your goal should be to outlive your opponent by being able to take hits. If you're spending 50%+ of your time trying to cure or buff yourself, then you're doing it wrong. You wont hardly deal any damage and you will eventually run out of mp and then you're going to go down quickly as soon as that happens.

If you don't understand that concept, then that's why you believe the nonsense that you just said.

BTW: converting to gain HP only supports my argument. Having a ton of mp doesn't mean anything if you're getting pounded on. Thanks..
#58 Jun 30 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only time being down to 200 HP matters in a race argument is if it happened from one attack. Otherwise, it just means you or your healer didn't react in a timely fashion and any race, Taru or Galka, is just as likely to die.
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#59 Jun 30 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
The only time being down to 200 HP matters in a race argument is if it happened from one attack. Otherwise, it just means you or your healer didn't react in a timely fashion and any race, Taru or Galka, is just as likely to die.


You're thinking in a party environment. I'm referring to solo meleeing. There's been numerous of times where I've had my Stone Skin break and then get hit by like 2-3 critical double attacks where I'm getting spell interruption and I get SS up just in time to buff/cure myself. THOSE are the times where HP matters more than MP. I have to stay alive long enough to use my MP to keep me alive.
#60 Jun 30 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.
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#61 Jul 01 2011 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Why is this even debatable? Once a fight starts, max MP is pretty much irrelevant; the only thing that matters is Refresh, and given the obscene amounts available even outside Abyssea at this point, it hardly matters if your max is 700 or 1500. The only advantage it gives is more nukes per Chainspell and free buffs when starting out, and it's not like RDM doesn't get good chunks of MP on gear you can macro in for these purposes.

Pretty sure HP is the clear winner these days. Spending merits on MP or, god forbid, choosing your race based on MP pool, is just silly.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#62 Jul 01 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.


But you eventually can, so it's not equally likely. You don't know how many hits you might take before you get a spell off nor how much damage it might take. If you get down to 300-ish hp, then your race and gear set up (mp rings) either saved you or killed you.
#63 Jul 01 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
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Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#64 Jul 01 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Why is this even debatable? Once a fight starts, max MP is pretty much irrelevant; the only thing that matters is Refresh, and given the obscene amounts available even outside Abyssea at this point, it hardly matters if your max is 700 or 1500. The only advantage it gives is more nukes per Chainspell and free buffs when starting out, and it's not like RDM doesn't get good chunks of MP on gear you can macro in for these purpose.
I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.

Almalieque wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.


But you eventually can, so it's not equally likely. You don't know how many hits you might take before you get a spell off nor how much damage it might take. If you get down to 300-ish hp, then your race and gear set up (mp rings) either saved you or killed you.

And yet player preparedness and timing will still account for more in that situation. Yours is a sometimes possibility that might let you react maybe. Anybody can theorycraft those situations. Just like I can theorycraft a situation where I was hit by an AoE and freak triple crit hits and oh my gosh if I only had 200 MP extra to cure and rebuff!

That's why in a race debate it only matters the frequency a single attack drops that Galka or Elvaan to 200ish HP. That just happens, it's not tailored to any argument bias.
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#65 Jul 01 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


What's your point exactly? Max MP still only matters on the first nuke, after which it is still completely worthless until you Convert, and of course, you can use gear to achieve the same effect. It has nothing to do with "pushing the envelope", it's just math. (..kind of a silly thing to say to someone who has a full set of DMG+2 Magian staves anyway, but whatever).

That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#66 Jul 01 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


What's your point exactly? Max MP still only matters on the first nuke, after which it is still completely worthless until you Convert, and of course, you can use gear to achieve the same effect. It has nothing to do with "pushing the envelope", it's just math. (..kind of a silly thing to say to someone who has a full set of DMG+2 Magian staves anyway, but whatever).

That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.

Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte? But every RDM can nuke. I was talking about max MP, but you did conveniently ignore the fact that I quoted what I wanted to refer to, and since merits are ancillary to it, let's include them. For a concrete, repeatable example, when I solo Ovni (which a lot of RDMs might want to do for +2s now), you can burn through a pool, Convert, and burn through another pool in nukes for expediency's sake. It's just easier that way. Now a Taru with MP merits compared to a Galka with HP merits, I'll get off easily 1-2 more nuke, or have extra HP during convert where an AoE stripping shadows and breaking stoneskin followed by an attack won't kill me for the same number of nukes.

Abyssea is by and large easymode, but make no mistake, max MP still matters.
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#67 Jul 01 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte?


Of course not, which is exactly the point; "pushing the envelope" (your words, not mine) is a phrase you use when you're expanding the boundaries of what the job is capable of, (i.e. acquiring Empyrean weapons) not adding a tiny, negligible bonus to something everyone has access to.

Quote:
. Now a Taru with MP merits compared to a Galka with HP merits, I'll get off easily 1-2 more nuke, or have extra HP during convert where an AoE stripping shadows and breaking stoneskin followed by an attack won't kill me for the same number of nukes.

Abyssea is by and large easymode, but make no mistake, max MP still matters.


So you're just going to completely ignore the 1k~4k MP you can restore via meds in Abyssea? No, I'm sorry, max MP barely, barely matters outside Abyssea, and is completely, totally, 100% irrelevant within Abyssea.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#68 Jul 01 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte?


Of course not, which is exactly the point; "pushing the envelope" (your words, not mine) is a phrase you use when you're expanding the boundaries of what the job is capable of, (i.e. acquiring Empyrean weapons) not adding a tiny, negligible bonus to something everyone has access.
You're really hung up on that phrase, aren't you? I guess I'll defer to your expert judgement on sayings. While an extra nuke isn't exactly groundbreaking (duh), 1-2000 damage isn't quote fingers negligible.

Quote:
So you're just going to completely ignore the 1k~4k MP you can restore via meds in Abyssea? No, I'm sorry, max MP barely, barely matters outside Abyssea, and is completely, totally, 100% irrelevant within Abyssea.
You have never been in a situation where your temps were gone? Used up last fight? Never? Why spend cruor on temps when Convert's free? Why waste temps before using up Convert? It's easy to coast by in Abyssea on refresh on temps, everyone does it, but I already gave one situation where your broad sweeping statement is completely false and it's not an isolated event, in Abyssea.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 2:39pm by jlejeune
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#69 Jul 01 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


Jlejeune wrote:
I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


Well that's a mp management problem. It doesn't matter how much MP you have, anyone can blow throw mp if you're consistently spamming spells. Doing so is not a reflect of *needing* more mp, but a direct reflect of you not being able to manage the mp that you already have.


Jlejeune wrote:
And yet player preparedness and timing will still account for more in that situation. Yours is a sometimes possibility that might let you react maybe. Anybody can theorycraft those situations. Just like I can theorycraft a situation where I was hit by an AoE and freak triple crit hits and oh my gosh if I only had 200 MP extra to cure and rebuff!

That's why in a race debate it only matters the frequency a single attack drops that Galka or Elvaan to 200ish HP. That just happens, it's not tailored to any argument bias.


It has nothing to do with a single attack when you're the only one getting hit. The bottom line is that mages don't have as much defense and HP as DD-melee jobs. When you're solo, you WILL get hit by a TP move, you are VERY LIKELY to get hit by a double attack and you're also VERY likely to get hit with Critical attacks. So the frequency is VERY high at least.

Whether or not it all happens at the same time or in some "fluke" scenario is just a bonus, not the foundation of the argument. The more hp/defense you have will outweigh the need for mp. Once again, if you're spending most of your time casting, then you're aren't dealing damage and you're wasting mp, which will result in your death.

#70 Jul 01 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.


Thats besides the point, anyway. Pushing the envelope on RDM is more along the lines of Nuking 5-6 mobs a minute endlessly, not meriting HP so you can get .0 more HP from them while taking 0 damage nuking chaining 2-3 mobs at a time without chain spell. Just Sayin'.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 10:17pm by rdmcandie
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#71 Jul 01 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
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That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.


Thats besides the point, anyway. Pushing the envelope on RDM is more along the lines of Nuking 5-6 mobs a minute endlessly, not meriting HP so you can get .0 more HP from them while taking 0 damage nuking chaining 2-3 mobs at a time without chain spell. Just Sayin'.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 10:17pm by rdmcandie


That's why so many RDMs fail. Nuking is not "pushing the limit", that is unless we have two different definitions of that phrase. RDMs are better built to nuke than melee. RDMS have the capability to melee, but it takes much more know-how and skill to be able to melee a mob than nuking a mob (depending on the mob).

Given that, meleeing mobs down is much more down the line of "pushing the limit" than nuking is. As a result HP is very important. I wouldn't go so far as to merit HP, because MP is also important. The intent would be to merit MP so you wouldn't have to a mage sub or use mana rings and still have mp to manage off of.
#72 Jul 01 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.
Defense, Shield procs, -%PDT, VIT, killer effects, Bio, etc etc (in addition to their obvious utility) are sound, solid forms of -%Spell interruption.

However... RDM's MP-based magic (stoneskin) linearly benefits from any amount of -%spell interruption (whereas Ninjitsu magic has an "all-or-nothing" deal with interruption gear).

Whether its situationally or religiously, some equipment slots BEG for -%Spell interruption.

If you're soloing multiple (and proportionately weaker) mobs (eg Divine Might)... you can cram defense/pdt/VIT on top of your Stoneskin casts, helping Phalanx nub-out more hits, ultimately netting you a better -%spell interruption rate than actually piling on "-%spell interruption" gear. Ironic :)

Buuuuut, ya know...
If you're tanking anything from Amikiri to, sayyyy, Vrtra... you'll wanna cram -Interruption into your Stoneskin casts because "SH*T SH*T NEED STONESKIN NOW!!1".

For anything between those two extremes... there's always a right balance.
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#73 Jul 01 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess my train of thought on the subject boils down to this: If you run out of MP while nuking, you are inconvenienced for 20-30 seconds until you've regained enough MP to cast another nuke, whereas if you run out of HP at any time, you die. You automatically lose 5 minutes to weakness, and if you're soloing a NM, it can get much worse. It can depop, somebody else could claim, or it could start regenerating HP. If it gains HP, you're then wasting more time damaging it back to where it was when you died, and if it depops/is claimed, you're then wasting even more time waiting for the next pop, or having to farm another set to pop it. That can bring the total time wasted from the death to 20~60+ minutes.

Granted, HP differences due to race/merits aren't large enough to save your *** on a consistent basis (not compared to, say, Cruor buffs), but whenever i get nailed by an unlucky confluence of events, like a nasty tp move followed by a double-crit, and it leaves me under 120HP, I am extremely thankful for my HP merits. I had MP merits for years, and never thought to myself **********, those MP merits just saved my ***!" Considering all of this, I would much rather have to be a tiny bit more conservative with my MP pool than have to deal with the frustration of a wipe that could've been avoided.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#74 Jul 02 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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MP regeneration is faster than it ever has been; switching my merits from MP to HP for that life-buffer seems all the more enticing...

One rule still stands:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error

I prefer optimistically addressing my casting potential by prioritizing MP over HP.

More of a "grab life by the horns" kinda feel, if you will.
:)
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#75 Jul 02 2011 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Well that's a mp management problem. It doesn't matter how much MP you have, anyone can blow throw mp if you're consistently spamming spells. Doing so is not a reflect of *needing* more mp, but a direct reflect of you not being able to manage the mp that you already have.
That's a blind accusation or another false blanket statement. I can burn my MP pool because I know how to manage MP, I don't need to sit on a full bar to play it safe.

Almalieque wrote:
It has nothing to do with a single attack when you're the only one getting hit. The bottom line is that mages don't have as much defense and HP as DD-melee jobs. When you're solo, you WILL get hit by a TP move, you are VERY LIKELY to get hit by a double attack and you're also VERY likely to get hit with Critical attacks. So the frequency is VERY high at least.
But not immediate. Very likely, but not immediate. Frequent, but not immediate. Triples, doubles, crits, they don't change the rate of attack, the damage is done, the timing of spells is the same. There's obvious fluctuations but a clear and visible consistency. If a RDM cannot physically cast during that, odd are the same on any RDM dying because of that consistency. That's a failure on the player's part, not a problem stemming from lack of HP. That's why merit and racial HP differences only matter during immediate damage.

Almalieque wrote:
Once again, if you're spending most of your time casting, then you're aren't dealing damage and you're wasting mp, which will result in your death.
That's just- wrong.

Almalieque wrote:
That's why so many RDMs fail. Nuking is not "pushing the limit", that is unless we have two different definitions of that phrase. RDMs are better built to nuke than melee. RDMS have the capability to melee, but it takes much more know-how and skill to be able to melee a mob than nuking a mob (depending on the mob).

Given that, meleeing mobs down is much more down the line of "pushing the limit" than nuking is. As a result HP is very important. I wouldn't go so far as to merit HP, because MP is also important. The intent would be to merit MP so you wouldn't have to a mage sub or use mana rings and still have mp to manage off of.
Managing nuke hate? Timing nukes with support? Nuking under fire? Especially nuking under fire? Never had to time nukes to shadows and buffs? Never capped hate with a DD and bounced? Never bounced with another mage? Pinning and nuking? Any non-melee solo?

Tossing a nuke is child's play, but being good at nuking takes skill, attention. You can't auto-attack nukes.

I'm sorry I don't pimp out melee to the exclusion of others, but what I do is NOT fail. Well, I'm not sorry either. There's nothing mystical about melee, it's just another facet to master.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 1:37am by jlejeune
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#76 Jul 02 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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HP merits guard against 1-hit K.O. more than anythin.

I'd call gettin one-shotted "funny" before I'd even toy with the thought-a-bout callin it "bad".

Reckon I'd get around to callin' it both, though.
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ee
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