Race for RedmageFollow

Taurtau: The other short meat.
Elvaan: Any more arrogant, and you'd be french!
Mithra: Turning men into furrie catgirls since 1997.
Galka: Cause you weren't made fun of enough in high school, fatty.
Hume: Way to go, average man!


Edited, Jul 4th 2011 12:20am by Hyrist

Jesus.... that is not a quote of mine I want quoted.

I hope both y'all are the last two people to copy-paste it.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 3:56am by IcookPizza

More than ive done =D I just use my DNC >.>

I gave up on it, tbh RDM sucks at pretty much everything....even soloing. My BLM and DNC see way more mileage. RDM comes out of my house pretty much only to solo amber/te to make myself money.


Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:52am by rdmcandie

If you leveled BLM or DNC you would not touch RDM again. DNC is bad ass melee solo crushes RDM, and BLM solo's circles around RDM now nuking.

I still love my RDM but the job is pretty effing bad in all regards now. (although outside abyssea I am RDM so it is still used a lot by me just not in abyssea.)

This.. When I get bored as RDM, I break from the game.

I guess but having played nothing but RDM for my 7-8 year career kind of entitles me to do so don't you think?

No its being useful to myself and others inside abyssea RDM sucks. You can pretend like I did that it doesn't, level something else and play as it you will notice how piss poor RDM actually is. Nw by all means fight your same 6 t1-2 VNM's and feel like you are accomplishing something, nothing wrong with that but RDM is pretty @#%^ing sh*tty in abyssea. (As I said above Its my default non abyssea job however since it is actually semi useful outside.)

Thats it its not just as powerful, I wish I could solo half the sh*t on my RDM i can on DNC or as BLM/RDM for that matter in a muc more reasonable time, but it can't so it is essentially useless to me. In my low man its used in 3-4 fights 1 being shin and only because PEB is a gimmick that makes any job god for 3 minutes.

It is not good, its not a bad melee but it gets outshone pretty fast by petty much everything else including WHM and BRD. Its not a bad nuker but is out shone by BLU,BLM,SCH,PUP. Its a terrible healer. Its usefulness is minimal to say the least and its comparability to other jobs isn't far behind.

About the only it is good for is farming gold chests, but since ive been experimenting on DNC all day I get just as many TE's and Golds as on RDM, and I can solo a bunch of bosses while doing it. RDM and DNC aren't even in the same class.

As for my "old days" RDM I don't think you know me very well, I meleed 95% of the time on red mage, including endgame. That wasn't the norm, and I was hardly invited nearly as much as the true prima dona's of the job.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:09pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:10pm by rdmcandie

There's a big difference between now and then though; the popular jobs for Abyssea are popular because they offer concrete, indisputable advantages over others, not due to the changing whims of the playerbase at large. Skilling up RDM doesn't give you access to aga3s, AMs, 10/13 red procs, 14/15 blue procs, etc.

There's a big difference between bandwagoning, and choosing not to shoot yourself in the foot before you even leave your Mog House. If you have such a huge attachment to a single job that you refuse to use anything else, to the point where you feel it necessary to deride others for not hewing to your narrow view, that's your business, but don't start thinking that it somehow makes you better. Quite the opposite, really.

Sure, but the poster in question being accused of bandwagoning said nothing of the sort, so I'm a little confused. All it sounds like to me is a bunch of kids vying for the most RDM street-cred, and it's pretty goddamn sad.

You telling me what RDM can do in abyssea thats rich. Ii am quite sure Ive logged much more time stating the exact same thing over and over again.

Th issue is that it is impractical. It looks great on paper to be able to do a dozen procs with the right sub. But 2 piercing 2 slash , and 4 Blunt. It is impressive to walk around with Cyclone, ED, Seraph Blade, Seraph Strike, Earth Crusher, RLB at the same time.

But it is impractical. 1. Because the majority of those skills are subjob dependant. Using WAR gets you access to it all, but now you miss on Flash, Banish II, Banishga II, Or Drain, Aspir, and taking those reduces your weapons procs.

RDM is cluster @#%^ed, and not really any fun anymore. Besides the Head piece sucks, if im going to be eye candy while my friends do all the work for me I should at least look good.

IT IS USELESS.

RDM has at best 2-3 procs on any given day for casting, and 2-3 procs at any given weapon specific time, and 1-2 red procs.

They have access to others, but that is highly irrelevant when Thunder III isn't actually a proc on Ice stagger.

Thats why its mostly useless as a proc job. Others have 4-5 of each type on any given day and time, RDM does not, hence its useless in that capacity.

Wow. You RDMs are kinda violent these days, aren't you?

It has nothing to do with being desired by others. I played as a melee RDM the majority of the time, that wasn't desirable. It has to do with time, my DNC can solo 5 Khalamari to my RDM's 3. In this immediate time that is 100x more useful to me. That means I get 2 more chances for my neck to drop.
It can solo PI's to sell way faster, earns TE's just as well, gets amber just as easy. It is clearly superior for the capacity in which I require it for....and that is 100% my opinion on something being desired not the communities.

BLM is used because as I said above we lost our BLM, since mine was the closest I took it up. Out of necessity for the success of our group.


And to be quite honest I was sick of being the clearly useless job there, leeching pretty much off my friends work. Something about that just didn't seem right.

So I got 2 things that solved both my personal issues with RDM, it isn't a spectacular soloer any more, and I am actively contributing something to my lowman group that benefits all of us, unlike before when I tried to look busy doing nothing, and like I said there are situations that RDM is clearly better in, and it gets used its fair hare of the time.

But really you and Hyrist need to drop this fantasy that RDM is at all useful or particularly good at anything at all (which it isn't).

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 1:34pm by rdmcandie

That's what I meant by desirable. Not necessarily desirable to others, but to you as well. I admit that I used the wrong wording initially, but I corrected it in the quote you provided. It isn't desirable to you because you get a whole TWO additional kills.

That's perfectly cool, but at this time, you're not playing for the love of the job, but what can give you the best outcome at the time. Which means, if SE were to come out with a patch that allowed RDMs to solo 6 Khalamari's to your DNC 5, then you would switch back to RDM, which by definition makes you a band wagoner.

That's cool, just don't pretend otherwise.



You have to differentiate between the job being useless and you being useless.

No I don't think it does, it makes me smart. Probably smarter than you. Abyssea time isn't free, even though I have over 400 stones, I burn them like candy on NM's, Soloing faster allows me to get the items I want/need, with time remaining to do stuff with/for my friends on a useful job to help them/us out. Then at the end of the day when we get to big nasty stuff I pull out my RDM because 40-50K Sanguine Blades rock sh*t pretty good.

So you don't really talking about. RDM capacity is useless because it is too slow, and not equipped with useful mechanics. However it is hella useful in many situations.

Obviously you have not played another job at 90 to experience just how useless and mundane RDM really is. You should you would likely have more fun actually getting sh*t accomplished, instead of pretending or leeching it.

I really don't think you know what bandwagon jumping really is. Im a red wings fan, I cheered San Jose on after they won, because Joe Thornton is from my home town, and if they won it would drastically increase my chances of seeing the Stanley Cup outside the HHOF. Does that make me a band wagon jumper? (even though the Red Wings still remain my favorite team, just like RDM is my favorite job, but both were useless to me at somepoint).

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 2:03pm by rdmcandie

You take that back or I'll violence you!

High handed? No, pissed off at the negative connotation everyone has vs Red Mage? Damn straight.

RCD especially knows how nasty I can get to those who are like "lolzrdmsux" when it can be made to work. He was here, less than two years ago, nailing people as well for the blue mage argument.

And here he is on the bandwagon preaching again for the other team.

I'll put it bluntly, so you all understand. Red Mage is NOT USELESS. Piratical when you have 10-15 jobs leveled to 90? Yes. But this is the same argument that was made against Red Mage from it's inception. The only difference is, is that it's no longer in vogue as a Cure/Haste bot.

Nothing Has changed about the job in 7-8 years. And that's part of the problem.

That doesn't make the job useless. It's black or white for them. You can argue the problems with what uses we have until nothing makes sense anymore, but that still does not negate the use, that just acknowledges the difficulty.

"Go Dancer and Black mage and you'll never touch Red Mage again."

This is bandwagon, and it's the exact point where RCD crossed the line with me. You do not tell me what jobs I should play, period, especially in the forum dedicated to the job you're insulting. So what that with the right Atmas, BLM and DNC and BLU can devastate RDM in solo. I'm fairly sure Blue Mage can blow my RDM out of the water when it comes to soloing my Sword Trials too. I didn't play Red Mage to be the best at everything. And if my class has difficulty being useful in specific areas, then I need to adjust my playstyle to make the most of what I can offer. I have friends that are supportive of that, and that is why they remain friends. We play our jobs for love of the job, not love of 'this is the best performance for this event'.

If I do take up another job, likely blue mage, it's for love of the job's premise, not it's performance.

No matter how broken Red Mage is, I still love the job and I still find ways of making it work. That's not saying it's not broken and in desperate need of some unique contribution that's valid in Abyssea as well. That's telling the nitwits to quit with the retarded absolutist terms that I have always hated no matter what job was out of style. I've hated every single 'lol' stigma in this game with the same amount of passion. It's absolutely nothing new, and you guys should not be shocked by it.

It's a matter of pushing individual performance vs job performance. And if you're going to go so far and insult the job that you've enjoyed for years on end, you're going to get called a bandwagon player for it. Sorry, them's the breaks.

Especially when the main use job (DNC) is hardly a popular job people shot for, and the BLM, well ive explained that one, shell needs procs, ill do procs, what kind of friend would I be if I didn't fill the void hmm? Especially after 4 months of essentially leeching abyssea.

7 years of that job waxing in popularity (then sharply waning) and degrading in utility, and massive arguments surrounding the job resulted in a single update that was hardly game changing. The level cap increase thus far has only provided us with tier ups (Nukes and Refresh only) and a JA we should have had level 30, five years ago. Only thing we can raise an eyebrow to is Gain Spells, but Boost Spells drown that out completely. I'm not hoping for some miracle patch that suddenly makes us popular in Abyssea. The way of making RDM's trademark contributions useful in Abyssea involves some rather substantial mechanic changes, to Abyssea or the job. (Can start by removing EX restrictions on weapons, period. That'd actually help a lot of jobs.)



Yet nobody would pay me the same kindness?

Sorry but the constructiveness in what he is saying is "Don't Play Red Mage."

There is no argument other than that. I called him a bandwagon player for exaggerating the way he has and nothing more. Every bloody argument people have put up here is valid until they say something absolute terms, in which case I get very angry because all of it is overblown bitching without any mention of solutions (Besides chicken-sh*tting out and playing a different job).

Would be nice if one of them chimed in "Hey our proc list sucks, SE could make that better by making our Merit Spells proc, or give job specific WSes a high chance of procing in Abyssea." Or "We've got a short Blue/Red list, best to try out your NMs during this day/hour if you're stuck playing RDM." No, there's no ideas, there's no constructive thinking, no improvisation. It's just hate, and I'm sick of that attitude in general, no matter what community, no matter what subject. There's always the haters ruining an otherwise good time.

I get it, Abyssea without getting Cure V left a bitter taste in a lot of RDM's mouths. But unless you really test and explore the problems/difficulties in depth, you're never going to come out with anything but a shallow solution to recommend. In the meanwhile, those that do stick to RDM have to make do. Don't contribute to their hell.




Edited, Jul 6th 2011 8:54pm by Hyrist

This is the crux of the problem. Red Mage brings absolutely nothing to the table anymore.
Nothing.

Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. The big goose egg.

We used to bring MP endurance and the odd enfeeble. Now everyone has MP endurance, enfeebles are flat out resisted or unnecessary and the rest of our bag of tricks which was previously adequate is now woefully inferior to everyone else's.

What precisely are you contributing to your group Hyrist? Because whenever I take Red Mage to Abyssea it just ends with me sitting on my hands or throwing a handful of spot cures over the entire battle. There's not much left for us to do in the current metagame. So again, what exactly are you bringing to the table as a Red Mage? Because I know what I'm bringing to the table: a warm body to fill a slot and swipe loot.

Then you're not paying attention.



That's exactly what a band wagoner is. It has nothing to do with "being smart". I leveled WHM because I got tired of constantly main healing as a RDM knowing that WHM does it sooo much better. Even so, there were times where I preferred to main heal with RDM because I wanted to be RDM and I knew I could pull it off.

There's actually nothing wrong with that, but when you label a job as "useless" because it only kills 3 mobs instead of 5 mobs..... you're a band wagoner.

You're not playing jobs for your joy of the job but whatever seems most useful. That's ok, but that's what a band wagoner is. You jump ship to another job when the other job becomes slightly better.

There are times to "jump ship", but a difference of 2 mobs doesn't classify for that time especially for a job that wasn't meant to be the best at anything to start off with.



Oh, my mistake. I was referencing to Final Fantasy, what series are you talking about?

RDM is and has always been the Jack of All Trades, Master of None. You are confusing being the Master of something vs being the best suited for something. I clarified that years ago. All you have to do is look at every other job in the game with their mastery and compare to RDM and it's so called "mastery". You'll see an evident lack of support.

RDM was never a Master of Solo, just the best suited class to get the job done. There's a big difference. The only things that kept BLM from blowing RDM out of the water on solo were refresh and convert.

Well, refresh is not a "survivor" tool, but a support tool. Else, it would be self-cast only like many of the other RDM spells. That only leaves convert. Given the extra amount of mp of BLM and higher tier spells and access to items, that could easily be made up.

The best healer? LOL.. WHM is and has always been the best healer in the game. Once again, you're confusing being the Master of something vs the best suited. People only favored RDM because you could free up a slot in the party. That doesn't constitute being a "better healer". That's the only reason why I leveled WHM in the first place, because it was a much better healer.

Don't even get me started on that whole "Master of Enfeebling" nonsense...



It's not about being stubborn. You can and should play other jobs. The thing is, if you don't have the slightest tingling to play your RDM solely because it can't do x,y or z better than some other job, then you're a band wagoner, plain and simple. Just man up and accept it as the truth. Stop trying to rationalize it, because the more you try, the more you prove that is indeed what you are.

If my group is lacking elemental power, I would play BLM. If my group is lacking healing power, I would play WHM. If my group is efficient in either but still desires extra, I'm playing RDM. That's the entire purpose of RDM.

With tier IV spells and atmas, I actually feel MORE USEFUL than ever. My damage has increased dramatically and I don't have to worry about refresh. So, I'm still healing with much much more damage.

Or I could just heal with my WHM.......



Typically I am.. BLU and SCH were some of the best updates for RDM

I might not be casting much of anything in Abyssea as RDM...
but I'm pointing fingers, shouting orders at people, ranting of mid-battle strategy changes, etc.

I'm not sure why, but those things come easiest to me when I'm on RDM.
(might have something to do with the "not casting much of anything" thing)
You won't find me leveling another job anytime soon!

--EDIT--
Suck it.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 10:51pm by IcookPizza

If you got the cojones, then bring it.

I won that argument years ago back when RDMs with a sword were crucified, so I'm 134% positive that I would obliterate any nonsense you throw my way now...

Go ahead, leap.

Oh for @#%^'s sake. This is why I hate every other Red Mage I meet. You're all living with this delusion that Red Mage in FFXI is the same Red Mage as in every other offline Final Fantasy game.

It's not.

Wake the @#%^ up and come to terms with that cold harsh reality or go level a job that's better suited to what you're looking for.