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#52 Jun 28 2011 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
I dunno can't think of a single time i have died thinking man if only I had had another 100/150 HP. Ive died a lot to stupid things over theyears and it has never crossed my mind. But iv most certainly had the man if only I had MP for another nuke right now. Ive done alot of stuff and MP becomes HP a hell of a lot easier then HP becoming MP it seems. Or in the very least a hell of a lo more often and consistently.


That all depends on what you're doing. I've been in numerous scenarios as an Elvaan where I was down to less than 200 hp. Of course MP is much easier to be an issue because you can easily spam it without getting hate. Even then it's easy to make up for lost/low mp.

As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, hp means a lot. MP keeps you alive, but no HP means you're dead.
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#53 Jun 28 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Default
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.
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#54 Jun 29 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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I'd still say the only valid argument to be made for a Race On Red Mage is which one looks the best to you.

It's an identity you are going to be assuming for many a year. Choosing it basted on stats then determine you don't like how it looks only gives you two options, Reroll, or .dat hack. Where as having problems with stats, just changes what gear you wear.
#55 Jun 29 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....
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#56 Jun 30 2011 at 3:46 AM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....


If you have 3K MP and 0 HP there is probably a reason you are dead. #1 being you didnt cure yourself. #2 being you didnt even try and use convert to save your life (ya convert does work the other way as well.)

MP is the most important stat for any mage related job in the game period. Solo, Group, Frontline, Backline. If you don't understand why, then it explains why you are dead with 3K mp.
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#57 Jun 30 2011 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, mp means a lot. hp keeps you alive, but no mp means you're dead.


Pretty sure I was right the first time.. 0 mp = 0 mp; 0 hp = dead.. I mean, unless you're playing a different game? You can live with 0 hp and 3k mp? Interesting....


If you have 3K MP and 0 HP there is probably a reason you are dead. #1 being you didnt cure yourself. #2 being you didnt even try and use convert to save your life (ya convert does work the other way as well.)

MP is the most important stat for any mage related job in the game period. Solo, Group, Frontline, Backline. If you don't understand why, then it explains why you are dead with 3K mp.


So, I was right then? MP helps you stay alive but no HP means you're dead. Why did you feel the need to change that? I completely agree that MP is the most important thing for a mage, but the value of mp is situational just like everything else. I'm simply providing you a scenario where it would be more beneficial to be a race other than a Taru.

If you're meleeing solo, the goal is to be as less dependent on MP as possible. The goal is to outlive your opponent, not deal uber damage or cast it to death. With that being said, all I need are my composured buffs.

MP should only be necessary to "chain" mobs without resting, not actually killing the mobs. If I'm using a large percentage of my mp on each mob and having to constantly cure bomb myself, then maybe I'm doing something wrong or should fight another mob.

With Phalanx, Stoneskin, Cocoon, Sanguine Blade, Tacos, etc., your goal should be to outlive your opponent by being able to take hits. If you're spending 50%+ of your time trying to cure or buff yourself, then you're doing it wrong. You wont hardly deal any damage and you will eventually run out of mp and then you're going to go down quickly as soon as that happens.

If you don't understand that concept, then that's why you believe the nonsense that you just said.

BTW: converting to gain HP only supports my argument. Having a ton of mp doesn't mean anything if you're getting pounded on. Thanks..
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#58 Jun 30 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only time being down to 200 HP matters in a race argument is if it happened from one attack. Otherwise, it just means you or your healer didn't react in a timely fashion and any race, Taru or Galka, is just as likely to die.
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#59 Jun 30 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
The only time being down to 200 HP matters in a race argument is if it happened from one attack. Otherwise, it just means you or your healer didn't react in a timely fashion and any race, Taru or Galka, is just as likely to die.


You're thinking in a party environment. I'm referring to solo meleeing. There's been numerous of times where I've had my Stone Skin break and then get hit by like 2-3 critical double attacks where I'm getting spell interruption and I get SS up just in time to buff/cure myself. THOSE are the times where HP matters more than MP. I have to stay alive long enough to use my MP to keep me alive.
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#60 Jun 30 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.
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#61 Jul 01 2011 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Why is this even debatable? Once a fight starts, max MP is pretty much irrelevant; the only thing that matters is Refresh, and given the obscene amounts available even outside Abyssea at this point, it hardly matters if your max is 700 or 1500. The only advantage it gives is more nukes per Chainspell and free buffs when starting out, and it's not like RDM doesn't get good chunks of MP on gear you can macro in for these purposes.

Pretty sure HP is the clear winner these days. Spending merits on MP or, god forbid, choosing your race based on MP pool, is just silly.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#62 Jul 01 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.


But you eventually can, so it's not equally likely. You don't know how many hits you might take before you get a spell off nor how much damage it might take. If you get down to 300-ish hp, then your race and gear set up (mp rings) either saved you or killed you.
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#63 Jul 01 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
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Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#64 Jul 01 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Why is this even debatable? Once a fight starts, max MP is pretty much irrelevant; the only thing that matters is Refresh, and given the obscene amounts available even outside Abyssea at this point, it hardly matters if your max is 700 or 1500. The only advantage it gives is more nukes per Chainspell and free buffs when starting out, and it's not like RDM doesn't get good chunks of MP on gear you can macro in for these purpose.
I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.

Almalieque wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.


But you eventually can, so it's not equally likely. You don't know how many hits you might take before you get a spell off nor how much damage it might take. If you get down to 300-ish hp, then your race and gear set up (mp rings) either saved you or killed you.

And yet player preparedness and timing will still account for more in that situation. Yours is a sometimes possibility that might let you react maybe. Anybody can theorycraft those situations. Just like I can theorycraft a situation where I was hit by an AoE and freak triple crit hits and oh my gosh if I only had 200 MP extra to cure and rebuff!

That's why in a race debate it only matters the frequency a single attack drops that Galka or Elvaan to 200ish HP. That just happens, it's not tailored to any argument bias.
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#65 Jul 01 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


What's your point exactly? Max MP still only matters on the first nuke, after which it is still completely worthless until you Convert, and of course, you can use gear to achieve the same effect. It has nothing to do with "pushing the envelope", it's just math. (..kind of a silly thing to say to someone who has a full set of DMG+2 Magian staves anyway, but whatever).

That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#66 Jul 01 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


What's your point exactly? Max MP still only matters on the first nuke, after which it is still completely worthless until you Convert, and of course, you can use gear to achieve the same effect. It has nothing to do with "pushing the envelope", it's just math. (..kind of a silly thing to say to someone who has a full set of DMG+2 Magian staves anyway, but whatever).

That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.

Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte? But every RDM can nuke. I was talking about max MP, but you did conveniently ignore the fact that I quoted what I wanted to refer to, and since merits are ancillary to it, let's include them. For a concrete, repeatable example, when I solo Ovni (which a lot of RDMs might want to do for +2s now), you can burn through a pool, Convert, and burn through another pool in nukes for expediency's sake. It's just easier that way. Now a Taru with MP merits compared to a Galka with HP merits, I'll get off easily 1-2 more nuke, or have extra HP during convert where an AoE stripping shadows and breaking stoneskin followed by an attack won't kill me for the same number of nukes.

Abyssea is by and large easymode, but make no mistake, max MP still matters.
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#67 Jul 01 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte?


Of course not, which is exactly the point; "pushing the envelope" (your words, not mine) is a phrase you use when you're expanding the boundaries of what the job is capable of, (i.e. acquiring Empyrean weapons) not adding a tiny, negligible bonus to something everyone has access to.

Quote:
. Now a Taru with MP merits compared to a Galka with HP merits, I'll get off easily 1-2 more nuke, or have extra HP during convert where an AoE stripping shadows and breaking stoneskin followed by an attack won't kill me for the same number of nukes.

Abyssea is by and large easymode, but make no mistake, max MP still matters.


So you're just going to completely ignore the 1k~4k MP you can restore via meds in Abyssea? No, I'm sorry, max MP barely, barely matters outside Abyssea, and is completely, totally, 100% irrelevant within Abyssea.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#68 Jul 01 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte?


Of course not, which is exactly the point; "pushing the envelope" (your words, not mine) is a phrase you use when you're expanding the boundaries of what the job is capable of, (i.e. acquiring Empyrean weapons) not adding a tiny, negligible bonus to something everyone has access.
You're really hung up on that phrase, aren't you? I guess I'll defer to your expert judgement on sayings. While an extra nuke isn't exactly groundbreaking (duh), 1-2000 damage isn't quote fingers negligible.

Quote:
So you're just going to completely ignore the 1k~4k MP you can restore via meds in Abyssea? No, I'm sorry, max MP barely, barely matters outside Abyssea, and is completely, totally, 100% irrelevant within Abyssea.
You have never been in a situation where your temps were gone? Used up last fight? Never? Why spend cruor on temps when Convert's free? Why waste temps before using up Convert? It's easy to coast by in Abyssea on refresh on temps, everyone does it, but I already gave one situation where your broad sweeping statement is completely false and it's not an isolated event, in Abyssea.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 2:39pm by jlejeune
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#69 Jul 01 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


Jlejeune wrote:
I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


Well that's a mp management problem. It doesn't matter how much MP you have, anyone can blow throw mp if you're consistently spamming spells. Doing so is not a reflect of *needing* more mp, but a direct reflect of you not being able to manage the mp that you already have.


Jlejeune wrote:
And yet player preparedness and timing will still account for more in that situation. Yours is a sometimes possibility that might let you react maybe. Anybody can theorycraft those situations. Just like I can theorycraft a situation where I was hit by an AoE and freak triple crit hits and oh my gosh if I only had 200 MP extra to cure and rebuff!

That's why in a race debate it only matters the frequency a single attack drops that Galka or Elvaan to 200ish HP. That just happens, it's not tailored to any argument bias.


It has nothing to do with a single attack when you're the only one getting hit. The bottom line is that mages don't have as much defense and HP as DD-melee jobs. When you're solo, you WILL get hit by a TP move, you are VERY LIKELY to get hit by a double attack and you're also VERY likely to get hit with Critical attacks. So the frequency is VERY high at least.

Whether or not it all happens at the same time or in some "fluke" scenario is just a bonus, not the foundation of the argument. The more hp/defense you have will outweigh the need for mp. Once again, if you're spending most of your time casting, then you're aren't dealing damage and you're wasting mp, which will result in your death.

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#70 Jul 01 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.


Thats besides the point, anyway. Pushing the envelope on RDM is more along the lines of Nuking 5-6 mobs a minute endlessly, not meriting HP so you can get .0 more HP from them while taking 0 damage nuking chaining 2-3 mobs at a time without chain spell. Just Sayin'.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 10:17pm by rdmcandie
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#71 Jul 01 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
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That's all beside the point, anyway. "Pushing the envelope" on RDM is more along the lines of CDCing 2-3 kills per minute endlessly, not meriting MP so you can get 0.8 more nukes per MP pool while single target nuking things without Chainspell. Just sayin'.


Thats besides the point, anyway. Pushing the envelope on RDM is more along the lines of Nuking 5-6 mobs a minute endlessly, not meriting HP so you can get .0 more HP from them while taking 0 damage nuking chaining 2-3 mobs at a time without chain spell. Just Sayin'.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 10:17pm by rdmcandie


That's why so many RDMs fail. Nuking is not "pushing the limit", that is unless we have two different definitions of that phrase. RDMs are better built to nuke than melee. RDMS have the capability to melee, but it takes much more know-how and skill to be able to melee a mob than nuking a mob (depending on the mob).

Given that, meleeing mobs down is much more down the line of "pushing the limit" than nuking is. As a result HP is very important. I wouldn't go so far as to merit HP, because MP is also important. The intent would be to merit MP so you wouldn't have to a mage sub or use mana rings and still have mp to manage off of.
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Demea wrote:
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#72 Jul 01 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.
Defense, Shield procs, -%PDT, VIT, killer effects, Bio, etc etc (in addition to their obvious utility) are sound, solid forms of -%Spell interruption.

However... RDM's MP-based magic (stoneskin) linearly benefits from any amount of -%spell interruption (whereas Ninjitsu magic has an "all-or-nothing" deal with interruption gear).

Whether its situationally or religiously, some equipment slots BEG for -%Spell interruption.

If you're soloing multiple (and proportionately weaker) mobs (eg Divine Might)... you can cram defense/pdt/VIT on top of your Stoneskin casts, helping Phalanx nub-out more hits, ultimately netting you a better -%spell interruption rate than actually piling on "-%spell interruption" gear. Ironic :)

Buuuuut, ya know...
If you're tanking anything from Amikiri to, sayyyy, Vrtra... you'll wanna cram -Interruption into your Stoneskin casts because "SH*T SH*T NEED STONESKIN NOW!!1".

For anything between those two extremes... there's always a right balance.
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#73 Jul 01 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess my train of thought on the subject boils down to this: If you run out of MP while nuking, you are inconvenienced for 20-30 seconds until you've regained enough MP to cast another nuke, whereas if you run out of HP at any time, you die. You automatically lose 5 minutes to weakness, and if you're soloing a NM, it can get much worse. It can depop, somebody else could claim, or it could start regenerating HP. If it gains HP, you're then wasting more time damaging it back to where it was when you died, and if it depops/is claimed, you're then wasting even more time waiting for the next pop, or having to farm another set to pop it. That can bring the total time wasted from the death to 20~60+ minutes.

Granted, HP differences due to race/merits aren't large enough to save your ass on a consistent basis (not compared to, say, Cruor buffs), but whenever i get nailed by an unlucky confluence of events, like a nasty tp move followed by a double-crit, and it leaves me under 120HP, I am extremely thankful for my HP merits. I had MP merits for years, and never thought to myself "Damn, those MP merits just saved my ass!" Considering all of this, I would much rather have to be a tiny bit more conservative with my MP pool than have to deal with the frustration of a wipe that could've been avoided.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#74 Jul 02 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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MP regeneration is faster than it ever has been; switching my merits from MP to HP for that life-buffer seems all the more enticing...

One rule still stands:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error

I prefer optimistically addressing my casting potential by prioritizing MP over HP.

More of a "grab life by the horns" kinda feel, if you will.
:)
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#75 Jul 02 2011 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Well that's a mp management problem. It doesn't matter how much MP you have, anyone can blow throw mp if you're consistently spamming spells. Doing so is not a reflect of *needing* more mp, but a direct reflect of you not being able to manage the mp that you already have.
That's a blind accusation or another false blanket statement. I can burn my MP pool because I know how to manage MP, I don't need to sit on a full bar to play it safe.

Almalieque wrote:
It has nothing to do with a single attack when you're the only one getting hit. The bottom line is that mages don't have as much defense and HP as DD-melee jobs. When you're solo, you WILL get hit by a TP move, you are VERY LIKELY to get hit by a double attack and you're also VERY likely to get hit with Critical attacks. So the frequency is VERY high at least.
But not immediate. Very likely, but not immediate. Frequent, but not immediate. Triples, doubles, crits, they don't change the rate of attack, the damage is done, the timing of spells is the same. There's obvious fluctuations but a clear and visible consistency. If a RDM cannot physically cast during that, odd are the same on any RDM dying because of that consistency. That's a failure on the player's part, not a problem stemming from lack of HP. That's why merit and racial HP differences only matter during immediate damage.

Almalieque wrote:
Once again, if you're spending most of your time casting, then you're aren't dealing damage and you're wasting mp, which will result in your death.
That's just- wrong.

Almalieque wrote:
That's why so many RDMs fail. Nuking is not "pushing the limit", that is unless we have two different definitions of that phrase. RDMs are better built to nuke than melee. RDMS have the capability to melee, but it takes much more know-how and skill to be able to melee a mob than nuking a mob (depending on the mob).

Given that, meleeing mobs down is much more down the line of "pushing the limit" than nuking is. As a result HP is very important. I wouldn't go so far as to merit HP, because MP is also important. The intent would be to merit MP so you wouldn't have to a mage sub or use mana rings and still have mp to manage off of.
Managing nuke hate? Timing nukes with support? Nuking under fire? Especially nuking under fire? Never had to time nukes to shadows and buffs? Never capped hate with a DD and bounced? Never bounced with another mage? Pinning and nuking? Any non-melee solo?

Tossing a nuke is child's play, but being good at nuking takes skill, attention. You can't auto-attack nukes.

I'm sorry I don't pimp out melee to the exclusion of others, but what I do is NOT fail. Well, I'm not sorry either. There's nothing mystical about melee, it's just another facet to master.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 1:37am by jlejeune
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#76 Jul 02 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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HP merits guard against 1-hit K.O. more than anythin.

I'd call gettin one-shotted "funny" before I'd even toy with the thought-a-bout callin it "bad".

Reckon I'd get around to callin' it both, though.
yes
sir
ee
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#77 Jul 02 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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IcookPizza wrote:
MP regeneration is faster than it ever has been; switching my merits from MP to HP for that life-buffer seems all the more enticing...

One rule still stands:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error

I prefer optimistically addressing my casting potential by prioritizing MP over HP.

More of a "grab life by the horns" kinda feel, if you will.
:)

I left my merits alone at half'n'half. Cruor HP% is twice as much as Cruor MP%, which is somewhat double-edged. HP merits get double the impact from Cruor than MP merits and you can say double the value from Cruor, but even RDM gets obscene amounts of HP as it is, but less so MP. MP regeneration outside Abyssea isn't that fast, if still faster. It's enough for me to leave it as is.
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Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#78 Jul 02 2011 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error


It really depends on what you solo with your RDM. If you can nuke fast enough to deplete your MP pool to the point where you're standing around waiting on Refresh/Convert, and those MP merits would make a difference, that usually means you're not casting any/many defensive spells; ergo, the NM's offense is weak, and you should really consider meleeing instead of nuking in the first place. On the other extreme, if staying alive requires near-constant juggling of defensive/enfeebling spells and/or kiting, your opportunities to nuke are limited to the point where Refresh/Convert are able to cover your MP costs without trouble. The point being, your offensive capabilities are much more limited by the NM and requisite strategy than your MP pool. This is not to say that more MP is entirely useless; just that it is useful much less than one might think.

On the other end, your reasons for prioritizing HP over MP are sound, but the list is not complete. For example, take Faust at 75 cap. With exceptional gear, strategy, and practice, a high rate of success was entirely within reason; but no matter how good or prepared you were, things could always go wrong, and you could die in seconds at any time. Lag, be it client or server side, could contribute; maybe your girlfriend calls in the middle and you're distracted; maybe he just decides to be a complete @#%^, resist Bind and Gravity back to back, Typhoon x3, and double crit you to death. In short, it's just like accuracy; no matter how good it is, there's always a small chance of failure. The main draw of the additional HP merits is that they hedge against these rare but catastrophic failures; they won't always save you, but they will over time.

So, when comparing the two, do I spend my merits to very slightly increase my killspeed (which is already very fast) in a limited number of situations, or do I spend them to reduce what is a (completely arbitrary number, YMMV) 5% chance of losing in a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" situation to a 4% chance? It is entirely a choice of personal taste, but when given the chance to do so, hedging one's bets is never a bad idea.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#79 Jul 02 2011 at 6:47 AM Rating: Default
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icookpizza wrote:
Defense, Shield procs, -%PDT, VIT, killer effects, Bio, etc etc (in addition to their obvious utility) are sound, solid forms of -%Spell interruption.


Exactly.

jlejeune wrote:
That's a blind accusation or another false blanket statement. I can burn my MP pool because I know how to manage MP, I don't need to sit on a full bar to play it safe.


Not at all. Did you understand the logic used? No matter how much MP you have, you can ALWAYS burn through it. That doesn't mean that you don't have enough MP to be successful. So, you can't claim that MP is highly needed solely based on the fact that you're able to spam spells to burn your MP, because that will ALWAYS be the case. You can have 5k mp and blow through that as well (assuming that you have higher level spells), if you're not managing your MP.

Given that our MP refresh rate went up more than double since the 75 cap, it's not looking in your favor.

jlejeune wrote:
But not immediate. Very likely, but not immediate. Frequent, but not immediate. Triples, doubles, crits, they don't change the rate of attack, the damage is done, the timing of spells is the same. There's obvious fluctuations but a clear and visible consistency. If a RDM cannot physically cast during that, odd are the same on any RDM dying because of that consistency. That's a failure on the player's part, not a problem stemming from lack of HP. That's why merit and racial HP differences only matter during immediate damage.


You're not understanding. Spell interruptions is only an example. The fact that you're taking damage is reason enough to support HP/defense. If you're solo melee, you should be meleeing, not casting. So, the only spells that should be cast are composure buffs, enfeebles and cures. By having more defense and HP, you reduce the amount of times necessary to cast cures, which adds unto your overall damage.

The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much!
So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.

jlejeune wrote:
That's just- wrong.


Are we even playing the same game? If your survival relies on you casting spells, then not having any mp will result in your death, plain and simple. Otherwise, your survival doesn't rely on you casting spells.

jlejeune wrote:
Managing nuke hate? Timing nukes with support? Nuking under fire? Especially nuking under fire? Never had to time nukes to shadows and buffs? Never capped hate with a DD and bounced? Never bounced with another mage? Pinning and nuking? Any non-melee solo?

Tossing a nuke is child's play, but being good at nuking takes skill, attention. You can't auto-attack nukes.

I'm sorry I don't pimp out melee to the exclusion of others, but what I do is NOT fail. Well, I'm not sorry either. There's nothing mystical about melee, it's just another facet to master.


You may not fail as a RDM. I don't know you, so I wont claim as such, but that mentality is failure.

I'm not saying nuking is child's play, but unlike other DD jobs, RDMs just can't hit auto-attack and be successful. That's why I like melee as a RDM over other jobs. I'm much more involved than auto-attack, hoping that I kill the mob before it kills me.

That's what I meant by RDM being more built for nuking than melee. RDM is perfectly able to melee, but it takes much more work and effort to pull it off. That's how RDM melee received such a bad name for so long. Equipping a Joy Toy and a Genbu Shield doesn't cut it, especially if you're not even getting hit, you basically just strapped on a Joy-Toy (that's what she said).

On the other hand, you simply having a spell(i.e. Blizzard IV) does a LOT for your damage. Most of your mage gear you will use, we have + elemental in our AF/relic and +int is cheap and easy to find.
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#80 Jul 02 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#81 Jul 02 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.


But at what cost? Serious question, because I don't know.
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#82 Jul 02 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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Its funny you are all still arguing over this based on a comment i made just to push buttons. It desn't matter what @#%^ing race you choose, all that matters is if you gear properly for the task you are doing, and don't have a head of air when it comes to performing said tasks.
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#83 Jul 02 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Not at all. Did you understand the logic used? No matter how much MP you have, you can ALWAYS burn through it. That doesn't mean that you don't have enough MP to be successful. So, you can't claim that MP is highly needed solely based on the fact that you're able to spam spells to burn your MP, because that will ALWAYS be the case. You can have 5k mp and blow through that as well (assuming that you have higher level spells), if you're not managing your MP.
Hardly. Any RDM can sit on a full bar. Not any RDM can intentionally run on fumes and still do their job.

Almalieque wrote:
Given that our MP refresh rate went up more than double since the 75 cap, it's not looking in your favor.
Somehow, I'll manage.

jlejeune wrote:
You're not understanding. Spell interruptions is only an example. The fact that you're taking damage is reason enough to support HP/defense. If you're solo melee, you should be meleeing, not casting. So, the only spells that should be cast are composure buffs, enfeebles and cures. By having more defense and HP, you reduce the amount of times necessary to cast cures, which adds unto your overall damage.

The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much!
So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.
It takes the same work to get back to yellow or white HP whether you have 200 or 300 HP left after the attack. Unless you're intentionally staying in the red to prove you can cast one less cure, any RDM will be doing the same work, casting the same spells, to stay alive. Like I've been saying all along, extra HP from merits or race only matter in the immediate attack.

You don't need to flash pro-melee agenda around, this isn't an anti-melee rally.

Almalieque wrote:
Are we even playing the same game? If your survival relies on you casting spells, then not having any mp will result in your death, plain and simple. Otherwise, your survival doesn't rely on you casting spells.
Obviously?
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Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#84 Jul 02 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Its funny you are all still arguing over this based on a comment i made just to push buttons. It desn't matter what @#%^ing race you choose, all that matters is if you gear properly for the task you are doing, and don't have a head of air when it comes to performing said tasks.


Funny how you think I care what your intent is. You're giving false information to someone who is asking for assistance. If you want to troll me, that's fine, I don't care. I will argue with you regardless, but don't give out false information to someone else.

jlejeune wrote:
Hardly. Any RDM can sit on a full bar. Not any RDM can intentionally run on fumes and still do their job.


That's the thing though. There is no need to intentionally "run on fumes". Anyone can spam tier IV spells, with enfeebles, buffs and etc. and run out of mp, but that doesn't mean that you're "short" on MP. If you're *intentionally* running on fumes, then that means you don't have to and the MP usage isn't necessary. Your only counter would be that it was necessary to do your job. Well, in that case, then being able to do that is no longer a feat as it's something necessary to do your job. It then becomes a problem with the job design.

jlejeune wrote:
It takes the same work to get back to yellow or white HP whether you have 200 or 300 HP left after the attack. Unless you're intentionally staying in the red to prove you can cast one less cure, any RDM will be doing the same work, casting the same spells, to stay alive. Like I've been saying all along, extra HP from merits or race only matter in the immediate attack.

You don't need to flash pro-melee agenda around, this isn't an anti-melee rally.


That's because it seems that you're confusing multiple points. My entire point is that there are certain scenarios (i.e. solo melee) that is more conducive for races other than a Taru.

The whole argument started off as deciding which race to choose. It was argued that Taru is always the best because of MP. I countered that there are scenarios where jobs other than Taru would be better. I gave the example of solo-melee.

It takes much more work to PREVENT you from getting to 200-300 HP while solo-meleeing than it would nuking. That's simply because as solo-melee, you are constantly getting hit. That's the whole reason why I said in that scenario, you're better off as any race other than Taru, because you have more HP to withstand hits.

jlejeune wrote:
Obviously?


So, how was I wrong then?
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#85 Jul 02 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.


But at what cost? Serious question, because I don't know.

Depends on which pieces you use to reach 102% spell interrupt rate.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#86 Jul 02 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.


This is so wrong. The purpose of melee solo it to defeat a target that is going t give you something. It doesn't matter if you are spamming MP on it or not while doing so. Melee is used to defeat targets that otherwise gives casting solos some difficulty or are nearly outright immune to magics all together. Vice versa is the same when discussing casting solo's.

pigeon holing yourself into one specific style of play just so you can stroke an imaginary epeen is silly and redundant. A RDM that is not capable of doing both styles of solo, or refuses to may as well just go level a job more suited for those specific solo styles such as a DNC for melee solo, or BLM for nuking solo.

Utilizing MP in a melee solo is perfectly fine and not wrong at all. Infact it make more sense to do so as certain sells greatly increase your survivability options. Keeping a mob Sslowed/Addled/Parad/Blind/Bio'd/Poisoned are all mp heavy duties, not using these is stupid. Furthermore casting an occasional nuke to speed up a kill is more than welcome, if not by your own personal time, the people standing around waiting on you to tickle a mob to death will greatly appreciate several minutes shaved off your kill speeds.

Sounds to me like you want to come in and say "I melee solo stuff so I am cool, and you all suck" If all you want to do is swing your silly swords at a mob, go and level DNC solo nearly twice as fast and you won't ever have to use MP. Since it is so silly to do so in your mind.
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#87 Jul 02 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.
Melee soloing certainly shines at its brightest when you're not casting so much.

The purposes of RDM melee soloing are:
1- Utility (Sanguine blade, Energy drain, Sambas, etc)
2- The "might as well" factor (melee + enspells/sambas should be woven into ANY amount of casting. also, spikes.)
#- *optional* Shield (which has a whooole 'nother list; surpassing this list in size)
4- parrying! tee hee!

Giving my personal example,
I "nuke-solo" mobs with every bit of MP I can, but my sword generally remains unsheathed. I get more MP to nuke with, because someone named "Sanguine F. Blade" is main-healing me.

(anyone else a fan of the Sanguine>Staff>Blizzard>Sword sequence?)

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 7:56pm by IcookPizza
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#88 Jul 02 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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In before @#%^ing trolls tell me how its not a true solo if "Sanguine F. Blade" is main-healing me.
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#89 Jul 02 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, just one more +1 (so close to 1,000!)

I used to nuke in turtle gear+spell interruption.

Sometime later, I realized that if I'm dumb enough to nuke when Stoneskin is down, I deserve to get interrupted.

Now, I wisely nuke in just turtle gear (except that little part at the end, when its firin' off, of course).
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#90 Jul 02 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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July 2, 2011

Dear diary,
I've written way too many entries within the last 30 minutes.
I think it's time we take a break.
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#91 Jul 02 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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(anyone else a fan of the Sanguine>Staff>Blizzard>Sword sequence?)


Hell ya it makes 100% sense. Especially conidering if you are like me you have INT and MAB atmas on to push your Sangblade higher. @#%^ curing yourself thats what TP is for.
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#92 Jul 02 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.


This is so wrong. The purpose of melee solo it to defeat a target that is going t give you something.


Uh, no, that's the point of fighting the mob, is to get something. HOW you kill it is a whole other issue which has nothing to do with you wanting a specific item.

RDD wrote:

pigeon holing yourself into one specific style of play just so you can stroke an imaginary epeen is silly and redundant. A RDM that is not capable of doing both styles of solo, or refuses to may as well just go level a job more suited for those specific solo styles such as a DNC for melee solo, or BLM for nuking solo.


Pigeon holing? Every since I started RDM, I've always carried gear for main healing, nuking and meeleing and switched when necessary. I'm probably one of the most versatile RDMs there are. My point isn't about nuking or healing now though. The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling. This isn't about melee vs nuke. I'm giving you a scenario that is better suited for a race other than Taru.


RDD wrote:
Utilizing MP in a melee solo is perfectly fine and not wrong at all. Infact it make more sense to do so as certain sells greatly increase your survivability options. Keeping a mob Sslowed/Addled/Parad/Blind/Bio'd/Poisoned are all mp heavy duties, not using these is stupid. Furthermore casting an occasional nuke to speed up a kill is more than welcome, if not by your own personal time, the people standing around waiting on you to tickle a mob to death will greatly appreciate several minutes shaved off your kill speeds.


I stated composure buffs and enfeebles. That's part of meleeing. Addle isn't always necessary, ice spikes > para, I argued for blind and people laughed at me, but I still use it, slow/BIO are good, poison not necessary.

The simple fact that you said *occasional* nukes completely supports my claim. You're not constantly nuking, you're just occasionally nuking at kills to speed things up. You're able to do that because with your 600-1200+ mp and refresh II, your enfeebles aren't taking that much of your MP.

The point of solo-melee is to only cast the necessary spells during battle. Else, you're just taking hits on your stone skin or on yourself casting spells. By doing so, you aren't dealing any damage, just taking damage and losing MP. If you're going to cast so much, you're better just nuking from a distance. That way, you aren't getting hit.

RDD wrote:
Sounds to me like you want to come in and say "I melee solo stuff so I am cool, and you all suck" If all you want to do is swing your silly swords at a mob, go and level DNC solo nearly twice as fast and you won't ever have to use MP. Since it is so silly to do so in your mind.




Not all. The purpose of this conversation was to present a scenario where it would be more beneficial to be a race other than Taru and I listed one. While doing so, tangents of melee vs nuking arouse, but that was never the point. It's much better to be an Elvaan while solo-meleeing than it would being a Taru.

I win.

ICook wrote:
Melee soloing certainly shines at its brightest when you're not casting so much.


This
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#93 Jul 03 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Default
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The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling.


That is cmpltely irrelevant as a good RDM isn't likely going to be getting hit often, if ever at all. HP is completely irrelevant when you are under the protection of 6 shadows, and Stoneskin that if geared popery ca never be interuptted from recasting.

The scenario that you brought up pertains to limited situations where you may or may not be on the receiving end of a death blow. This is also a redundancy as the longer a mob stays alive the more chance you have of getting into this situation. Having an extra 1-2 nukes or 2-3 cures with the few hundred more MP available as a taru negates this, and for reasons outlined above again being in a death blow situation on RDM where a couple hundred MP might save you is slim to nil, if tha situation arises you are going to be dead anyway in the next melee round. (this is large in part because RDM is incapable of healing through the large chunks of damage some mobs can put out.

In the end it is completely redundant to have this discussion. Taru is the best race statistically for RDM but its advantage is moot in todays game of unlimited MP. HP advantage is moot because in any situation where the HP is "saving" you, you will be dead before you can stoneskin, or heal yourself anyway.

MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.
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#94 Jul 03 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.


Go solo KSNM99 Behemoth on RDM, see if you can live through AoE Stun > Meteor > melee hits with Taru HP + MP merits. I had more than one close call that was completely unavoidable that would've killed me had I lacked even 100-200 HP; and yes, all that damage was received in PDT/MDT -50% gear as appropriate. Does that count as outside Abyssea?
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#95 Jul 03 2011 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling.


That is cmpltely irrelevant as a good RDM isn't likely going to be getting hit often, if ever at all. HP is completely irrelevant when you are under the protection of 6 shadows, and Stoneskin that if geared popery ca never be interuptted from recasting.

The scenario that you brought up pertains to limited situations where you may or may not be on the receiving end of a death blow. This is also a redundancy as the longer a mob stays alive the more chance you have of getting into this situation. Having an extra 1-2 nukes or 2-3 cures with the few hundred more MP available as a taru negates this, and for reasons outlined above again being in a death blow situation on RDM where a couple hundred MP might save you is slim to nil, if tha situation arises you are going to be dead anyway in the next melee round. (this is large in part because RDM is incapable of healing through the large chunks of damage some mobs can put out.

In the end it is completely redundant to have this discussion. Taru is the best race statistically for RDM but its advantage is moot in todays game of unlimited MP. HP advantage is moot because in any situation where the HP is "saving" you, you will be dead before you can stoneskin, or heal yourself anyway.

MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.



I can't speak for /nin because my nin is only level 20. With dual wield being given to /DNC, I favor /DNC over /nin. Each subjob has their trade offs and I prefer /dnc and /blu over /nin. I will admit that I did not take /nin in consideration because I was talking from my experiences. The trade off for having more WS, mp, abilities is shadows. I can't say which one is better, but if you choose to rather have the WS's, mp and abilities as opposed to the shadows, you will get hit.

Not only did I provide you a scenario where Taru wasn't the best race, I would argue it being the best job statistically for any mage. I would say that depends on what type of mage you are and your focus. Tarus have high int, but low mnd and hp. That maybe good for a BLM, but not necessarily for a WHM. My Elvaan HP helps a lot for Devotions and Martyrs. Of course the trade off is MP, but if you're not having a problem with MP, I would much rather have that HP for devotion and the extra mnd.
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#96 Jul 03 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Default
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Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.
#97 Jul 03 2011 at 3:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Meriting 80 MP allows you to cast 3% more aggressively, when "riding" convert's timer.
Meriting 80 HP magically turns 3% of your deaths into close calls, always.

Trust me, yes.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 5:22am by IcookPizza
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#98 Jul 03 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.


You're absolutely right. I know this conversation derailed into a melee vs nuke, but the entire argument was that Taru isn't the overall best race for RDM in every case. Everything is situational. I just love to argue and it's been a looooooong time since I've been on the RDM forums. Felt good :)
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#99 Jul 03 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.


You're absolutely right. I know this conversation derailed into a melee vs nuke, but the entire argument was that Taru isn't the overall best race for RDM in every case. Everything is situational. I just love to argue and it's been a looooooong time since I've been on the RDM forums. Felt good :)
Almalieque: loves to argue... rdmcandie: loves to argue...

... it's like watching Psyduck and Slowbro have a conversation. You'll be there 'til the stars burn out.
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#100 Jul 03 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Me throwing bogus math around isn't helping.
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#101 Jul 03 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Everything helps...
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
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