Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

New RDM GearFollow

#52 May 16 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,676 posts
Quote:
I actually agree with this. I still think you guys are worried about being a pink mage more than you like to admit, but I also think what you say is true. If RDM is "balanced" towards a healer slot, SE won't do anything else with the job. So I see your point and wonder what can be done to fix this.


I'm not afraid to admit it at all, as I did in =10 a few minutes ago. You want to be a ******* WHM? Level ******* WHM. End of discussion. Now, why would someone want to be a RDM in today's game? It's certainly not due to Abyssea procs, being a tier behind on nukes, a second-rate healer, or so far behind on the DD chain (without CDC) that people never even wanted the job for this purpose BEFORE the absurdity of Abyssea.

Now, my Regen musing is one step toward that fix. Slash's interpretation, though, isn't quite my angle. Instead, I'm looking at it more as a Dread Spikes we cast on others without it doing damage to the mob. Let's just call it Renew. Cast Renew on random person with 1500 max HP and for the next 10 minutes that get, per minimum, a 3000 HP regen pool that will tick away as he recovers damage. Higher enhancing magic will up both that pool and the maximum amount you can recover in a hit. So, if you're stuck at the 75% minimum rate, you'd need to take 4000 damage, and during that active time, at best recover 250 a tick, ideally 83-84 per second. And as I've pointed out before, stacking this with a 500ish HP Cure IV can give you a "reaction" to spike damage of at least 750 HP. Outside of Abyssea that's more than half the HP of a lot jobs and alongside the global cooldown delay, Cure IV's recast is actually manageable.

The real beauty of this, though, is if you do dump us in the DD parties (then again, DD tends to be tank now). AoE healing has NEVER been one of RDM's strengths. If you're stuck with some stupid party formation of you and 5 DDs (god, I do not miss these days of Dynamis), the duration of the spell and the pool basically makes this a preemptively cast Curaga II or III depending on how hard the AoE is. You can then pick the most immediate DD for attention while those at lesser risk will regen back to safer levels by the time you can actually get to them.

The balancing factor will be that the regen rate will depend on the last amount of damage received. If you took 1000 damage, then a second later 150, instead of getting that 250 the next tick, it'd be 37ish. From the RDM perspective, to minimize this inefficiency you WILL want your debuffs up to keep a mob slowed, paralyzed, and less likely to hit. You'll still get the occasional unfortunate situation where an -aga or TP move is followed immediately by a normal attack, but that also kills players under the eyes of a WHM. It'll still be useful for scrub mobs, too, and give us more time to do other things like nuke, debuff, or melee.

As was also noted, we don't overlap with WHM well. While I wouldn't expect this regen to "pause" at full HP, if SE went that extra mile, it'd definitely help our synergy with WHM and cut down on the overcures. Even without it, if in the same party, they'd also benefit from having it on the tanks. No, it's not Cure V. No, you wouldn't want to rely on it alone. However, I also feel people underestimate RDM's ability to heal things in Abyssea, in part due to actual party formations designed to make it fail.
#53 May 16 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
Seriha wrote:


I'm not afraid to admit it at all, as I did in =10 a few minutes ago. You want to be a @#%^ing WHM? Level @#%^ing WHM. End of discussion. Now, why would someone want to be a RDM in today's game? It's certainly not due to Abyssea procs, being a tier behind on nukes, a second-rate healer, or so far behind on the DD chain (without CDC) that people never even wanted the job for this purpose BEFORE the absurdity of Abyssea.



I don't care to melee on RDM beyond soloing or XP parties. So like you, I have my own dreams for what path I hope SE takes the job. I do want Cure V only because it's needed, although I wouldn't want Cure V if SE isn't able to give us a real purpose. I don't want people to default to us as a back-up healer if WHM isn't lfg either. Instead I'd like to see my ideas of Runic which could serve as a hybrid tool for some of you guys instated. However my real focus would be on giving us ancient enfeebles that are uber powerful and costly(mp). If RDM were able to mimic the effect from say red trigger terror, that would be useful. Or how about a /ja to push Dia III to the edge lowering the mob's def to zero for a short time. I'm pulling these ideas off the top of my head so balance hasn't been entered into the picture yet. The point I'm trying to make is enfeebling could be RDM's only salvation. SCH is going to be the better nuker along with BLM. WHM is holding on that healer slot and none of us want it anyways. BLU, DNC, COR, NIN, DRG/mage and PUP already have the hybrid role covered. NIN, PLD, and MNK tank, DD or both. The only niche for us is enfeebling the way I see it.

For far too long, enfeebling has been cast Slow and Elegy and maybe toss a Dia on and that's it. The rest of the magic line hasn't always helped enough to warrant the casting. Addle is a good start along with Sabo. Still I think that RDM is in a good position now to get an update. My logic for this, basically because were useless now. SE likes to wait until a job hits rock bottom to bother fixing it. RDM has been so popular over the years stealing WHM's role,tanking, kiting, doing-it-all. Now we have become borderline useless so I'm hoping SE will see as I do the only path for us is enfeebling. Not only that, it's our highest skill. Would I like a regen spell that does some of what you guys want, sure. I just don't want any focus on RDM melee because it will weaken any possible buff to the new enfeebling line. If RDM can be an effective hybrid and back-line enfeebler, I think SE will limit the new enfeebles in power and thus not make the average player need us. If the MP and durations are right, the power of these spells can be very powerful. I'd say Terror has to cost at least 300mp for every 15 sec. And before anyone goes ranting about how broken this will be think back real hard and remember what we did against tough bosses in the past. Dyamis Lord is the perfect example. Stack CS stun on him with a few RDM's if needed and zerg. So don't go and tell me these spells would be too powerful. They will cost a small fortune and RDM will be focused on enfeebling and with no time or mp for other things outside of that. These enfeebles would of course be useful on tougher prey like these Voidwatch NMs and HNM's and stuff. Because we can already hybrid and Cure(if we get V), RDM would have all angles covered under my plan.
#54 May 16 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
**
654 posts
A concept can't really be broken. It all depends on how you balance it. I'd bet there's a viable way to make a terror enfeeble work (though you would have to watch out for chainspell).

That being said though it still probably wouldn't stop SE from making half of their monsters immune to the spell.

While the title 'Master of Enfeebling' sounds nice all it's just a semantical crown. Enfeebling is just a means to an end and frankly enfeebling is one of the worst ways to meet that end.

If we are to become the 'Masters of Enfeebling' we NEED one thing. Some way to mitigate TP attacks. Because when you get down to it Slow and Paralyze do NOTHING to a TPs damage and VERY little to a TPs frequency. Bio and Blind are trite at best.

Honestly in terms of damage reduction enfeebles I would say conceptually Ninja is a better enfeebler. Nin has Slow, Paralyze, and Blind just like a Rdm, but in addition to those they have also have Yurin which pretty reduces the monsters TP frequency.

Sure, for normal hits Rdm works better because we have a better slow and paralyze, but compared to ninjas power to reduce the monsters TP frequency (sorta) can we really say our power is better?

Considering for most fights the most dangerous parts are the TP moves, not being able to actually inhibit their TP damage and TP frequency is a pretty big flaw.

Even if we did become the 'Master of Enfeebling' that isn't to say that we can't have our DD improved. Nin is one of the best DDs in the game and it's also an amazing tank and decent enfeebler. Pld is supposedly supposed to be the Tanking specialist, but they still have the ability to sure relatively well and a fairly strong DD potential (well...compared to us anyway. I mean if Pld with their gear selection still can't do **** with swords compared to other DDs that speaks something about swords in general >.>)

The 'Master of Enfeebling' unless they buffed enfeebling to like the levels in FFX (which they will never do) is not really a specialist because after everything is considered enfeebling will still likely be one of the worst means of reducing damage to the party.

Even if we were to receive a humungous buff to enfeebling I would say we are still due to some melee buff because when you get down to it we are being out damaged on the melee front by all but like 3 jobs, Smn, Blm, and Sch. EVEN WHM is out damaging non-CDC Rdms, and whm is about as defensive a specialist as you get.

You say that there's no room for Rdm to go in terms of melee, but I disagree. Rdm is actually very well set-up for a type of damage that really very few jobs actually adequately use and is probably how the original developers intended for Rdm to be. We are really well set up for being the 'Mystic Knight' of XI as really only Corsair tends to use magical damage for physical purposes and well...why are pirates the masters of swordspelling again?
#55 May 16 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,676 posts
Whenever I throw out a concept, I tend to make it as strong as I can perceive it without being super absurd. If SE takes it and implements it as is? Sweet. If they scale it back some? Well, okay. I do this because I hate the whole baby step angle of doing so little it changes nothing. Besides, if an idea starts conversation, like the mentioned Regen, then I'm just happy people are actually thinking about the job's problems and considering their own ways of refinement. As I've said before, if one wants to enter those conversations with nothing positive to add or express a gross lack of imagination, they're not really helping anything. It's basically like, "RDM doesn't deserve X because you did Y in 2005!" The game's changed. It's still changing. People need to get the **** over old **** and encourage more of the new.

In an attempt to spin the enfeebling game, a post was made on the official board where people were throwing in some ideas. I added some of my own, one which did involve lessening the sting of a mob's TP moves. Another was a debuff that effectively lowers a mob level by 3-5 (without affecting skill ups or EXP gains) which would make tanking and damage dealing much easier for everyone. There's some other stuff, generic and expected, while others got a bit quirky.

I'll just be mad if it's yet another idea we've come up with, only for it to show up on another job. I'm really getting tired of that.
#56 May 16 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
654 posts
Seriha wrote:
I'll just be mad if it's yet another idea we've come up with, only for it to show up on another job. I'm really getting tired of that.


Body] All Races
DEF:57 Accuracy+17 Ranged Accuracy+17 Sword skill +7 Katana skill +7 Marksmanship skill +7 Enhances "Dual Wield" effect Sphere: Critical hit rate +3% Set: Haste+8%

Why do I have a gut feeling that I know what sphere effects do >.>
#57 May 16 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,676 posts
I thought Tummie somehow discerned that they were basically auras, so yeah, fuuuuu.
#58 May 16 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
SlashAnonymous wrote:
A concept can't really be broken. It all depends on how you balance it. I'd bet there's a viable way to make a terror enfeeble work (though you would have to watch out for chainspell).

That being said though it still probably wouldn't stop SE from making half of their monsters immune to the spell.

While the title 'Master of Enfeebling' sounds nice all it's just a semantical crown. Enfeebling is just a means to an end and frankly enfeebling is one of the worst ways to meet that end.

If we are to become the 'Masters of Enfeebling' we NEED one thing. Some way to mitigate TP attacks. Because when you get down to it Slow and Paralyze do NOTHING to a TPs damage and VERY little to a TPs frequency. Bio and Blind are trite at best.


My idea for a Terror based enfeeble wouldn't work well with CS. This is because the spell will last at least 15sec and consume 300mp(min) per cast. Now the reason why SE won't make mobs immune to this and like-minded spells is basically for 2 reasons. You already know how the player base has turned those deathy Abby NM's and made them pussycats because people use the triggers and only keep a few people on the mob limiting TP. I really don't see a difference between procing red and zerging the mob to death and a RDM with a spell that has a similar effect. This terror spell will prevent any casting during the terror phase as it must be locked down for the effect to hold the mob. RDM's already CS stun anyways, I don't see why this would be a problem.

Slow and Paralyze have nothing on this terrorize spell. In order to keep balance, I like to see these spells work on charges. If you try to use Terrorize back to back, it will cost you double the MP and then triple and so forth if you don't let your timers recharge. I also would have COR piggyback off our spells again(like dia III and slow) and increase the potency or duration with QD.

I realize enfeebles isn't really a big deal now, but look at how we have bypassed tough NM's though locking them down with stun or using triggers or even winds to weaken them. Enfeebles can play a huge part of RDM's play book if SE has the courage to try. I want these spells so powerful and totally unable to use in a solo setting to prevent abuse. Here are a few spells I like to see added, some are higher tiers of current spells.

Terrorized: Costs 300mp minimum and lasts 15sec or longer depending on COR's QD boost. Will not work with Chainspell, but will work with Sabo. This spell is immune to magic def boosts and uses a specialized warlock wand used in secret by the great Warlock clan.

Temper: A defense crushing spell that effectively reduces the target to 0 def for a short time. Every tic the def will scale up though back to half defense mark by 30sec of effect. This spell costs 400mp and cannot be used more than once every 5min.

Addle II: Will confuse the mob and cause them to forget spells and abilities. Inflicts muddle, a weak silence aura and increases delay on spell casting by 50% prior to silence wearing off should the mob attempt to get off any spells. This spell duration lasts for 30sec and costs 500mp. Will stack with COR QD and Sabo /JA.



Edited, May 16th 2011 9:37pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#59 May 17 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
*
208 posts
For me, our nitche was always endurance/attrition, be it nuking, curing, kiting, mitigating damage... I dont think any of us here took up the job to be haste/refresh/cure bots. I want Cure V, but not because I want to be a better support job. I want it because trying to recover after convert with IV just plain sucks ***.

I would like to see more stuff that builds on our strengths, endurance and attrition. Cure V will certainly help with that...

On a side note, we got ninja nerfed, not sure if any of you have noticed. I used to solo Long Barreled Chariot on RDM before the update. Para II would stick, and stick hard. Now it wont stick at all, and Im sure thats not the only NM SE ninja'd. They have systematically neutered us with each and every update, and it ****** me off.
#60 May 17 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
K1n371x wrote:
For me, our nitche was always endurance/attrition, be it nuking, curing, kiting, mitigating damage... I dont think any of us here took up the job to be haste/refresh/cure bots. I want Cure V, but not because I want to be a better support job. I want it because trying to recover after convert with IV just plain sucks ***.

I would like to see more stuff that builds on our strengths, endurance and attrition. Cure V will certainly help with that...



The lv80 cap broken the balance. I find it funny that SE nerfed /sch's charges and /sam's TP return, yet left Convert untouched. I'd personally like Cure V so I could heal faster instead of tossing multiple heals to do the same job. I'd rather focus on enfeebling which seems to be the best choice for us now. Think about it, it takes skill to tank. It takes skill to DD well without becoming a HP sink and riding your timers. It takes skill to cure effectively. However in the case of enfeebling, all you do is slap on enfeebling gear and pray thus it takes no skill. Equating gear doesn't equal skill. It used to take skill to be an effective link controller, but that seems to be a dead mechanic.

Anybody else notice how enfeebling takes no skill to do and is more of a crap shoot? I think to see SE change that and make enfeebling require some degree of skill. The only time it does require skill is when we were controlling crowds with our tools.
#61 May 17 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
**
654 posts
The same could be said of buffing and skill. You pretty much just slap on the buff and let it ride. If SE wanted to make buffing and enfeebling skill based one of the easiest ways would have them rely on the skill of experience. Let the skill be knowing when to use the buff as opposed to player ability somehow affecting the duration or potency.

Your terror example of a 15 second enfeeble would play on this since the skill would be knowing when to use it though I would debate that it wouldn't need the drawback of a gigantic MP cost if instead you gave it a really high recast timer.

It's odd. These do exist in the game yet Red Mage has none of them. Flash and Stun are some of the better examples. They only last a brief period of time but they have giant recasts. Knowing when to flash and stun could be considered a skill.

Maybe the answer to Red Mage is to follow more of a trend like this. Instead of adding more enfeebles that don't really do much but are on all the time the answer might be exploring shorter but more powerful enfeebles.

Maybe this is also the answer to Red Mages curative issues. After all the primary purpose of needing Cure 5 is something to quickly protect someone that just got smacked low. With a powerful enfeebling spell you could essentially use the spell to buy you time to use weaker cured to restore him to full.

Despite this though we would still need some generalist powers to back us up since this concept in theory really doesn't eat too much time. We can fill the rest of the time between our super powered enfeebles being a generalist. I mean enfeebling could just serve as the jobs panic button which most other jobs have to some degree to take hate or shed it in the case of an emergency.
#62 May 28 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,351 posts
I'm back in the game agian. (In the end it was my friends missing me that drew me back.)

Ultimately what I would still like to see is a form of castlable Amnesia. Addle would have been a great oppertunity to do so and I was reletively dissapointed that it wound up relating to spells instead of actual TP attacks. Right now it stands to be the one area we have no enfeebeling in and I agree with others that really needs to be changes if our 'king of enbeebles' title is to have any weight.

But beyond that I still firmly beleive we should not have access to Cure V quite yet as it would fairly root us into a primary, rather than secondary healer role. I do understand that Cure IV is woefully inadaquate for burst healing, but I agree with the others that the concept of brute force healing needs to be toned down, but more importantly, we don't want to push Red Mage's performance too hard into the healing angle without raising other aspects of our performance equally.

Right now our healing is lagging behind for the first time since we've received convert/refresh. However the silver lining in this bringing to light, forcefully, the other benefits of our class, highlighting our generalist nature rather than muting it, which brute force healing has done to RDM in the past.

That's not saying there is anything particuarlly wrong with wanting to play a more recovery-orientated support style on Red Mage. It's just stating that Cure V unmodified would be so powerful, it would dround out other styles which are JUST starting to get more air, while still ignoring our highly situational speciality.

As much as I advocate for melee, I firmly do not beleive any one style should be completly dominant on RDM. I'm in support of it being more even across the board, with some unique utilities that allow it to maintain usefullness and desire in a wide variety of situations. But, to empasise, this utility should be brought in consiteration as something ADDITIONAL to your basic heal/damage/tank roles, not as a substitute or replacement.

And for that I think our cures shoulden't outshine our enfeebles or enhancing spells. If we get Cure V unaltered without a stronger means of countering TP moves with enfeebles, they will, due to how combat has changed. That's keeping the argument entirely away from what impact it would have on other jobs and just focusing on Red Mage itself. Alternately, we could get an incredibly powerful enhancement we could give others on a tempt timer (Phalanx 3?) that would protect our target while our less cures make up the difference.

So in the end, even if I pipedream for more melee support. I think an 'Oshi-' enfeeble or buff on a long timer like previously stated is a higher priority. If we get Cure V in the same update as said enfeeble, I'll have no problem. But when the chips go down, in panic moment, I beleive it should be the WHM reaching for a cure, and we should be reaching for our buffs or enfeebles first and foremost.

Edited, May 28th 2011 2:45pm by Hyrist
#63 May 28 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,351 posts
Also a note to Shadow's High-cost spells and the spin offs of them.

A recast timer could be bypassed by chainspell unless it was put under a specific exception.

But another way of preventing it from being spammed is have it grant the target a temporary high resistance form it being inflicted with the status effect in rapid sucession. However, this would also prevent rotations so we'd have to consiter if that's where we would like to go with that sort of enfeeble style.

As far as a defense crushing spell, higher tiers of Dia could do that, spell library gives us up to Dia V, but honestly, defense isn't an issue, most melees crush the defence/attack forumulae anyways. Instead if we're going along that vein I would like to see a spell that functions as an inverse of Phalanx, but by percentages, giving a direct damage % increase determind by Enfeebeling skill rather than flat-lining defense calculations.

A higher tier of Phalanx could function in this manner as well with enhancing skill.
#64 May 29 2011 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
**
654 posts
It was brought up somewhere else I think, but it would be really hard for any spell they can create to be any more abuseable with chainspell then stun.
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 11 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (11)