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#27 May 12 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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I never said anything against Rdm getting better heals. I just said that we shouldn't get Cure V.

If you liked the ToA style of healing Rdm had where you literally just bombed MP with your infinite MP pool I'll just warn you now. Rdm will never again be able to do that nearly as well as Whm can now. Now that Whm can sub for Refresh and Convert unless the Dev team makes a huge change to Rdm that style of healing Rdm had in ToA is now on Whm.

That being said I never said anything against Rdm getting new healing spells and being a healer. I only said they shouldn't get cure 5 and be a primary healer. Now what do I mean by a primary healer, essentially a Rdm by himself should not be able to be the sole healer against anything significant. Really...leave that to the healing specialists, but this is where hybridization to come in. They have the ability to perform other roles to make up for it. So instead of Whm + DD + DD you can instead do Hybrid + Hybrid + DD and if they hybrids are balanced right you should have at least as much healing and DD made up by the hybrids then the specialists you cut. The issue is that this is a ***** to balance and most certainly isn't the case atm, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be strived for regardless.

Rdm needs an update in a lot of things with healing most definitely being one of them, but like I said before C5 is just lazy. There are so many ways to cure it's just lazy for everyone to be healing the same way. There's not just spike and regens either. There are interesting combinations you can have. If you don't think a regen is safe enough to be invited to a party then combine the regen with the spike. Make a C4 spell that adds a regen like effect over the next 6 or so secs that inevitably turned the cure into a C5.5's power. That on top of our current C4 would give the tanks plenty protection against most things.
#28 May 12 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Cure IV doesn't suddenly stop existing when paired with a potent regen. Other games have had an ability where, based on the damage you receive, you regenerate parts of it. That's basically my idea for the concept on RDM. You take 1000 damage, every 3 seconds you regen 250 of that back. Ideally it'd be 83ish every second, but I dunno if the tick system can be worked around. Regardless, 250 recovered plus 500 or so from the Cure IV, 750 HP recovered. Workable outside Abyssea, and not the total freakin' end of the world inside. Even with more normal hits around 150-200, getting 37-50 is like triple regen atma stacking potent. More than sufficient for most scrub mobs. Make it last 10m with a possible recovery ceiling and you also give RDM more time to do other things than camp Cure IV.
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#29 May 12 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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If we were lv75, I would agree with you. As it stands, it it's not logical that a COR/whm has access to the same tier healing spells that we do. SCH and RDM both deserve Cure V on that merit alone. If only for the fact that they can heal slightly better than a job that isn't subbing /whm. On top of that, BLU has pushed back RDM in a healer role. If that doesn't say red alert, nothing will. Finally I don't see Cure V as conflicting with WHM for slots. You say we should leave it the healing specialists(plural). Who may I ask is a healing specialist more than SCH and RDM? I'm concerned how any slant to improve RDM healing might backfire and stick us in that main healer role again. I'm not stupid and of course I would include equal balances across the board for us so we surpass /whm jobs like SMN and BLU yet never could pass for a WHM. That's where I see balance for us. Oh, I also think PLD has a chance to get CURE V at lv99 too. Yes I know it doesn't offer much enmity for hate holding, but if you look closely at our new ability tranquil something or whatever they call it you'll see WHM, SCH(subs rdm or whm), and RDM all have access to it. I think Cure V's enmity might be adjusted.
#30 May 12 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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As it stands, it it's not logical that a COR/whm has access to the same tier healing spells that we do. SCH and RDM both deserve Cure V on that merit alone.


This is something I just can't wrap my mind around.

Healing is as basic as DDing when it comes to MMOs. So why the big discrepancy between DD's and healers. Cause as it stands right now, we only have 1 true healer in the game. That's pretty stupid in my opinion. And show me any spell, jt, ja, or anything where the #1 job is TWO FULL TIERS (and by Tier, I mean roughly double the power from one to the next, not a measly 5% or so increase) ahead of the supposed next best. And that's just based on the spell alone, not even taking into account the myriad of other advantages WHM has when it comes to being a healer.

There's no doubt WHM should be the best healer, but not by such a huge margin. Right now, WHM is Michael Jordan, RDM and SCH are junior college benchwarmers.


Edited, May 13th 2011 12:33am by Fermion
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#31 May 13 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, a COR/WHM won't have the longevity of a RDM, what with the sub's MP and what little in gear they could equip while grossly sacrificing physical damage. Nonetheless, paired with the earlier recovery idea, our enfeebles would also help stall the mob's attacks so they have more time to work between the blows that do land. Do you expect a COR/WHM to land Slow, Para, and Blind? I know I wouldn't. Frankly, the RDM healer of old got by on brute force by dumping MP into cures. I'd like a little more finesse to and some consideration for our other skills. As is, playing WHM is pretty snooze-inducing at the moment since it's mainly just spam Cure V and twiddle your thumbs between damage. Suddenly giving that to RDM or SCH won't help WHM any, as they deserve their unique perks to healing. Cure V and VI just happens to be some of those at the moment, and quite possibly permanently.
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#32 May 13 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha, you're overlooking an important part of healing. Sure, you've got your ideas about regen type spells, PDT spells, and they're pretty good. They're well thought out, and you seem to have a good grasp on making them balanced. But efficiency isn't always the answer.

You're totally overlooking hp restored/time. What do you propose if/when your tank/dd goes into critical hp? While WHM can just cast Cure V & VI and everything's all better just like that, we're (SCH & RDM) in quite a bind. To a WHM this situation is just ho-hum hit two macros and business as usual, for us, it could potentially lead to a wipe.

That's where I have the problem. One job, I don't care if it is the pinnacle of whatever, shouldn't have such ridiculous advantage over the healers right after it. Cure V is a relatively simple way to help close the gap, and simple is just the way I'd like to see this issue addressed. SE has weird ways of convoluting job balance issues.

As we stand now, our healing in comparison to theirs (2 tiers apart) is "kinda" like DRK nuking vs. BLM nuking.



Edited, May 13th 2011 4:04am by Fermion
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#33 May 13 2011 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Was under the impression Pizza caps around 40 ACC. Either way, with our best Haste TP set, we're floating around the 400 ACC number outside of Abyssea.

Meanwhile, I'm against homogenizing the mage classes, especially in the direction RDM and SCH are heading. The two should not get Cure V. RDM should get a much, much, more potent Regen that goes off your last damage received while SCH should steer more toward damage mitigation with spells that add more outright -DT% (that could possibly break 50% caps) or even Stoneskin II that they could Accession for 600 "HP" or something. It's curing in a different way, leaving all three distinct and having moments where one may be superior over the other.

As for melee, it needn't be solely about damage, while that'd obviously be the simplest solution to get people to shut up about it. As DNC has proven, melee and (de)buffs needn't be exclusive. I don't think we should be tied into TP use, as that's already a precious resource for us with casting burdens, but if the additional effect of DB didn't suck and other perks that helped the party were to be an option, then outright damage buffs aren't as needed. However, they still need to be worth it to justify arguments against TP feed (or heaven forbid, give us a means to manipulate a mob's TP that isn't cast-only).


There is no supporting evidence on the 40 acc cap on Pizza, it just appeared one day on the wiki with a "needs verification" tag and no one's ever verified. I've never seen a cap on it although like most food effects it probably has one somewhere. For melee the only fix we're really hurting for is gear and fixing enspells somehow. I've always been a proponent that our enhancing magic should be the key factor in our various abilities. The fact that Haste / Refresh / Regen were the same static effect at 1 enhancing vs 400+ enhancing is what got our job stuck they way it did. I like your idea of a better Regen, personally I wish they would create a spell that gives a potent Regen with the effect and duration based on enhancing magic. In fact I'd love a whole host of buffs (both self, target and aoe) that have a pronounced effect based on enhancing magic, possibly a party target-able Stoneskin II. They alluded to this with how our AF+2 effects enhancing magic.
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#34 May 13 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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My biggest issue with RDM melee currently (this is both in an out of abyssea) is the restriction on certain weaponskills, in combination with restricted use on Daggers. The fact that we don't really have a solid sword WS before CDC sucks, with our better WS being on dagger before then (evis) but lack of any good daggers (outside of I think 2 that drop in aby and 1 requires lots of luck to get.)

Our gear isn't to to far behind (yet) we can still cap haste, break 500+ATK on a WS, boost our stats. But we are beginning to get to the end of that rope. Enspells I don't overly see as an issue, outside of aby, they are a solid chunk of added damage. Its still like adding on 200 or so ATK.

I think a good step would be for SE to lift restrictions on EX weaponskills (not just for RDM but for all jobs) I still find it odd a class that is a Sword Class (in SE's eyes and based on a skill level comprison by all jobs that can use swords) That RDM is locked on certain skills, when we have a higher skill level (be it slight) than DRK and WAR (both who likely have merits spent elsewhere as well). Then we could make use of the Esword+1 and still have a decent sword WS.



Oh and give us some dagger love.....
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#35 May 13 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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rdm - there is a new dagger. Just saw it yesterday on AH...totally forgot its name will have to find that for ya.

How come no one is factoring slow 2 and para 2 into this mix right now? The "new" battles outside abyssea could definately use a rdm to enfeeb the shirt outta the nms. In fact after fighting that bastage voidwalker nm outside of sandy the first thing that came to my mind was "man i should have brought my rdm instead of my blu to this." And I havent said that in months!!! Rdm has been sitting back on the backburner :| If I brought some enfeeb love to that fight it would have been waaay easier guaranteed.

I agree that inside abyssea rdm is pretty much totally useless unless you solo. Outside of abyssea though we still shine. But we definately do need something different for us rather than relying on spells that are old as dirt though they are still very potent.
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#36 May 13 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fermion wrote:
Seriha, you're overlooking an important part of healing. Sure, you've got your ideas about regen type spells, PDT spells, and they're pretty good. They're well thought out, and you seem to have a good grasp on making them balanced. But efficiency isn't always the answer.

You're totally overlooking hp restored/time. What do you propose if/when your tank/dd goes into critical hp? While WHM can just cast Cure V & VI and everything's all better just like that, we're (SCH & RDM) in quite a bind. To a WHM this situation is just ho-hum hit two macros and business as usual, for us, it could potentially lead to a wipe.


This would be the point where I also point out that if you're in a situation where no WHMs are available, yet seemingly absolutely needed, you can utilize a second healer to help pick up the slack. Or that a PLD could cure themselves, too, if you're using one. Pairing a RDM and SCH, in my given examples, would also provide a pretty durable "tank party" team in the event larger-scale party events make a return to the game.

Overall, if you're not working with a WHM, then the party might need to shift tactics some, even if it means everyone else within common damage range subbing NIN instead of WAR or SAM. The herpderp engage and AFK style people have gotten used to with easy mode WHM has kind of negated this need for thought.
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#37 May 13 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you needed your Rdm for enfeebles you probably would have been better off just bringing another Whm.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't had much of a chance to read up on/ fight any of the new voidwalker NMs, but for most things at least the monsters TP moves are the most dangerous part of the fight and simply put our enfeebles don't do **** to reduce their damage or frequency.

I mean the only thing our defensive enfeebles greatly affect is spellcasting and normal swings. But for the 70% of warrior type monsters that don't cast spells that doesn't help us a whole lot unless your DDs are terrible at casting shadows.

I mean the difference between T1 enfeebles and T2 enfeebles aren't nearly enough to make a difference between the benefits of a Whm, and if you really need more defensive power it would probably be more beneficial to bring a *god forbid* a paladin who can actually take hits better then your DDs lol.
#38 May 13 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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It's glad to see that in my retirement from this game, nothing's really changed. Really is helpful in keeping me away.

Shadow's still the same Melee-hatting moron he's always been. Gear for RDM melee is pretty much scraps, and the mechanics of the game basically rule out the entire utility that always made RDM shine as more than a pigeon hole healer. Thank goodness RDMs do not have Cure V or it might never get an identity of its own.

But I wanted to throw a bone out here that's old and dusty, but might be oddly appropriate in this case, an alternative to getting Cure V.

I've been digging through various games and for years I've been pondering over the iconic "Double Cast" ability that's missing from Red Mage. In this instant I think that Doublecast as an activated JA on approximately a 45 sec to 1 minute timer that allows a Healing or Elemental damage spell to occur twice instead of once, in trade for additional MP cost or cooldown would be helpful for the lack of Cure V woes, without pigeon-holing RDM back into pure healer.

This in no way will solve RDM's current 'Role' crisis. Though, honestly, I don't believe any thing simple such as gear or higher tiers of what is available to RDM will ever solve that. RDM has always been a middle of the road job to be focused the way the RDM desires anyways, in both single player games and this one. But this ability should bring the casting side back to a more recognizable state without taking away from what makes any other job unique.

AS far as anything else to help out the role? That's always been up to SE, who seems to be quite content in keeping us middle of the road. It would only be a personal desire to see RDM's front line aspects to be a touch more unique and viable than it is now (or was at the time I left.)

Though I doubt even that would get me to come back. Personal events have pretty much ruined the game, and MMOs in general, for me. And I don't think I could come back and face all that again. I figured it was appropriate for an old relic to chime in another old relic idea.

GL guys.

#39 May 13 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

Shadow's still the same Melee-hatting moron he's always been. Gear for RDM melee is pretty much scraps, and the mechanics of the game basically rule out the entire utility that always made RDM shine as more than a pigeon hole healer. Thank goodness RDMs do not have Cure V or it might never get an identity of its own.


Listen noob, you don't have a clue what your talking about, so shut the **** up. First of all, I've said numerous times in this thread that RDM can melee just fine in Abyssea XP parties. Our role beyond XP parties is what is in dispute here. Cure V isn't the top tier anymore and Cure IV isn't limited to just RDM and SCH anymore either. WHM should have Cure VI, RDM & and SCH Cure V, and the rest of the jobs should have Cure IV. That's how you balance the mage classes in terms of healing. It's not my fault so many of you guys are so **** scared of the Pink mage role that you're willing to turn down Cure V just to avoid it. WHM is going to retain the best healer role regardless if we get Cure V or not. The thing is our tanks and DD's have more HP now so we really need a higher tier cure if only to "support" even in in a hybrid role. BLU has better healing than a RDM now if that still doesn't convince you that you're wrong. You're not welcome here Hyrist, go back to the retirement home.


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#40 May 14 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Why does the fact that White Mage gets 2 tiers of cures above us JUSTIFY that we should get C5. Shouldn't we be giving buffs based on performance and not silly semantics?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying our curing potential is where it should be atm, but if you give Rdm Cure 5 you eliminate any possibility of making a different type of cure. Part of being a healer and balancing a healer are your cure's recasts.

I mean the reason we are a terrible healer isn't as much that we don't have C5 as much as we ONLY have C4 and can only cure as fast as C4s timer.

Simply put our HPS is pathetic.

The reason Blue Mage is the second best healer in the game atm isn't because they have a Cure 4.5. It's because they can get Cure 4 with their 4.5 essentially letting them heal nearly twice as fast as us.

Cure 5 isn't necessary to make us into a better healer.

There are other options that are plenty capable of that, and I'd rather have an option that creates a new style of healing then just another spike spell.

If your concern is that cure 5, because it's a spike spell, is safer then any other option, well...that's not necessarily true. Cure 5 is just more herp derp.

Food for though. Is restoring a tanks HP to full immediately after a severely damaging attack the only way to protect him from death?

Edited, May 14th 2011 11:25am by SlashAnonymous
#41 May 14 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Default
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well you are telling me that sabo + slow 2 really wont make a difference? When the mob spams aoe moves like mad even when you only have 1 tank on it with amazing subtle blow...i think rdm is in order. Or you are saying 5/5 para 2 wont make a difference ? Ive seen instances in both abyssea and outside to show how overpowered both of those spells are. Now granted since I didnt bring rdm to the party i bet SE put their usual "you cant enfeeble this" mode on the mob but its always good to dream :D

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#42 May 15 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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The more and more I think about it I find myself agreeing that instead of Cure V to RDM, SE should instead create a new type of Regen that's effect is based on enhancing magic. It should be a short duration Heal over Time (HoT) that lets us flex our high native enh skill. That and relax all the restrictions on Accessioning buffs on party members. Nearly all PT member target-able spells should be accession-able.
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#43 May 15 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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Well if Sch gets it as well it'll be accenssionable

Edited, May 15th 2011 4:30am by SlashAnonymous
#44 May 15 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Default
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You know I'm not against any regen upgrade in addition to Cure V. As you know, enhancing regens have limitations. The worst limitation by far is healing OUTSIDE of party. A good RDM should be healing everyone a WHM is healing 2nd on their priority list. I've already proved several times that Cure V won't make us a Pink mage again, but it will improve our use in all types of situations to include hybrid play. It's always been my belief that a RDM and WHM should be a tag team. This belief goes all the way back to FF1. WHM will always be the main healer, but it's nice and relaxing to know that they don't have to spam whack-a-mole cures on all people if you have a RDM there. WHM has a tool set that far exceeds Cure V and VI. In order to make RDM, middle of the road like others have mentioned, we need Cure V. Cure IV is the low road, Cure VI is the high road, obviously Cure V is the middle road. I'm well aware most of you guys who play RDM main are just worried that you'll be lumped into WHM's slot should the group be unable to find one. I believe SCH will find themselves in that role, not us. It doesn't matter what your preference is of what RDM should be. Cure V is coming so get ready for it. Without a shadow of a doubt & Lv95, we will have it.
#45 May 15 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry, but it will. While it's easy to say things like Sacrifice, Esuna, and Misery mode help to give WHM their edge, the times I've actually seen them utilized both by others and myself as WHM have been pretty @#%^ing limited. And while the Cureskin offered by Solace does help the tank, it's rather useless on secondary targets unless you have AoEs flying left and right. We'll just be right back where we were, brute force healing through gobs of MP (though this advantage has been significantly lessened by WHM getting access to Refresh, Convert, and AF3 pants), riding the Convert timer outside of Aybssea in more difficult locales. No longer would WHM or even SCH have the edge of Stona.

Can /WHM people Cure IV? Sure. Of all the other jobs that don't get it on their own, the only ones with a remotely decent MP pool are SMN, BLM, and BLU, with DRK and PLD going next (Though PLD doesn't need to sub WHM for C4). Of the 12 other jobs, they will not be main healing anything of difficulty. In fact, they're better poised to "help" the primary healer just as you envision RDM to. And even of the 5 jobs I did list, they're typically better off doing other things, some unique to themselves. Just because you might think everyone is subbing WHM and stealing our jerb, it doesn't mean they are, either. Cure V for RDM won't change their potential or position any.

Edited, May 15th 2011 3:06pm by Seriha
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#46 May 15 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
As you know, enhancing regens have limitations. The worst limitation by far is healing OUTSIDE of party.


You know that's not a limitation inherent with regens themselves but is a developers conscious decision.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
A good RDM should be healing everyone a WHM is healing 2nd on their priority list.


Agreed, but a powerful regen like we are talking about would actually help assist the Whm more then C5. First off, the White Mages first priority is generally the guy getting curbed meaning anyone who is second on the priority list isn't in immediate danger of dying which means a regen will work fine unless the monster is literally spamming AoEs in which case the Whm is probably spamming Curaga anyway. In addition even if we do heal the same target Cure 5 + Strong regen works better then 2 Cure 5s. 2 Cure 5s will likely cause a waste in HP healed, but the first combo, while some HP might be wasted, will have the majority of it heal the next few hits from the monster instead.

The issue with Cure 5 is it won't make us the middle of the road, assistant to a white mage, healer. White Mage will always be a better healer even if we get C5, I agree with this, but you have to realize for like 95% of fights all a White Mage needs is cure 5. Adding cure 5 to Red Mage doesn't make him an assistant to a White Mage, it makes him the substitute for when you can't find a White Mage. That is too much power for a hybrid class.

(Tbh the real solution is to just design harder monsters that require more then a Mnk and a Whm and from what I've heard of some of the new Voidwalkers they might have done that.)
#47 May 15 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:

Agreed, but a powerful regen like we are talking about would actually help assist the Whm more then C5. First off, the White Mages first priority is generally the guy getting curbed meaning anyone who is second on the priority list isn't in immediate danger of dying which means a regen will work fine unless the monster is literally spamming AoEs in which case the Whm is probably spamming Curaga anyway. In addition even if we do heal the same target Cure 5 + Strong regen works better then 2 Cure 5s. 2 Cure 5s will likely cause a waste in HP healed, but the first combo, while some HP might be wasted, will have the majority of it heal the next few hits from the monster instead.

The issue with Cure 5 is it won't make us the middle of the road, assistant to a white mage, healer. White Mage will always be a better healer even if we get C5, I agree with this, but you have to realize for like 95% of fights all a White Mage needs is cure 5. Adding cure 5 to Red Mage doesn't make him an assistant to a White Mage, it makes him the substitute for when you can't find a White Mage. That is too much power for a hybrid class.

(Tbh the real solution is to just design harder monsters that require more then a Mnk and a Whm and from what I've heard of some of the new Voidwalkers they might have done that.)


You know what I don't understand about you logic is how you cram the benefits of Cure V into some deluded accounts that we could replace a WHM if none were available, yet you warrant this regen buff that seems uber powerful in it's own right. So the question I have to ask, what's the difference? I believe from first hand experience that most groups will still use a RDM and WHM team. While it's more likely that the RDM will be main healer for the DD party, I still don't see WHM in any danger of their job. Oh and in the case you can't find a WHM, why should there be no way to realistically kill hard mobs without requiring a WHM? WHM's tool kit will more than make up for RDM's learning Cure V. Nobody is going to be like "kick the whm, get this rdm". I don't care if WHM mostly use Cure V, we still have 9 levels to go which means a further increase in HP and damage taken. I remember healing this Galka MNK recently on RDM who was in red HP. Cure IV does not cut it, not at all.

I realize some low-man groups might take only a RDM or WHM healer, but that doesn't mean most groups will do that. I really believe RDM and WHM work best together as a team and I would like to see more team abilities. How about new job abilities based on what jobs are in your alliance? Like if you have a WHM, all magic users receive a healing bonus as WHM inspires them to cure for HP. Likewise if you have a RDM, Fast Cast is increased by all magic users including Ninjitsu. This system would help keep RDM and WHM together in most situations.

Edited, May 15th 2011 11:47pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#48 May 16 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
You know what I don't understand about you logic is how you cram the benefits of Cure V into some deluded accounts that we could replace a WHM if none were available, yet you warrant this regen buff that seems uber powerful in it's own right. So the question I have to ask, what's the difference?


The regen would only be uber powerful if it was designed that way. What's more important is the concept behind the idea then the numbers of the idea. I mean the regen we are proposing is something not currently in XI yet commonly found in other MMOs. It's that type of regen that only lasts like 10-20 secs but ticks much more HP then a standard regen. Something like 100-300 HP/tick.

In fact one of the main benefits of this as well is that the development team can in fact balance it with what they feel Rdm should get. They don't really have that much of a luxury with Cure 5.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Oh and in the case you can't find a WHM, why should there be no way to realistically kill hard mobs without requiring a WHM?


This is where hybridization comes in. In theory how hybrids work is if you can't find that one specialist like a White Mage what you can do instead is drop one of your DD specialists and invite 2 hybrids instead.
If balanced properly DD + WHM = 2x Hybrid.

This is why we are so insistent for a melee buff (and a minor healing buff). Because 2 Red mages don't even COMPARE to one specialized DD. If that DD is pimped out not even an army of pimped out Rdms could compete with the DDs damage.

The same is true for healing atm. 2x Rdms don't compare to 1 whm. If you gave Rdm cure 5 though 2 Rdms would be quite a bit more then 1 whm, and that ruins our chance to be any sort of hybrid role since the can't boost our damage since is 2 Rdms could equal 1 DD then no one would even bother inviting Whm + DD anymore since 2xRdm would do the same damage but have way more defensive power.

Now this is just how it theoretically works. In the real game there are other things preventing this from happening such as economies of scale and diminishing returns between jobs, but the point stands that it we get cure 5 we won't be able to be developed as well in another field because our healing will be stronger then a generalist should have. It's the reason we virtually went stagnant since the big Rdm change. Because our healing was so strong that they couldn't realistically buff us.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
remember healing this Galka MNK recently on RDM who was in red HP. Cure IV does not cut it, not at all.


This is an issue of needing more HPS. Not needing cure 5.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I really believe RDM and WHM work best together as a team


You say this, but I'll be honest. Rdm and Whm are one of the WORST job combinations to have in the game simply because too many of our things can't stack. We have the same haste spell. We can't use both of our refreshes. Many of our other enhancement spells are the same or don't stack with each other. Our enfeebles don't stack. I mean think instead if you had Whm + Brd instead of Whm + Rdm.

Whm + Rdm will both have 6-7 MP/tick from the Rdm.
Whm + Brd will both have 8-10 MP/tick from both jobs

Whm + Rdm will give the DDs 15% haste
Whm + Brd will give the DDs 35% haste

Whm + Rdm will give the monster a 35-40% slow (70-80 with Sab)
Whm + Brd will give the monster 80% slow

And, at the moment at least, a Brd can heal just about as well as a Rdm, and probably melee better to if he gets a good set of Hetacomb augments. (The whm already stomps rdm melee)

#49 May 16 2011 at 2:01 AM Rating: Default
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SlashAnonymous wrote:

The regen would only be uber powerful if it was designed that way. What's more important is the concept behind the idea then the numbers of the idea. I mean the regen we are proposing is something not currently in XI yet commonly found in other MMOs. It's that type of regen that only lasts like 10-20 secs but ticks much more HP then a standard regen. Something like 100-300 HP/tick.


You haven't answered my question yet though. Why would you want this regen ability if Cure V could already handle the job? Do you want this regen ability just to be unique? The way I see it unless this regen is instant cast, it won't be useful enough on healing a tank. There is far too many mobs that do damage though shadows and the next thing you know, red HP. I don't want to play around and watch the tank die because the mob does another TP spam move back to back. Yeah, we could use several healers and stuff like that, but that's not realistic all the time. The regen ability would be a nice addition instead of the other tools a WHM has, but to have instead of Cure V isn't wise IMO.

Quote:

This is where hybridization comes in. In theory how hybrids work is if you can't find that one specialist like a White Mage what you can do instead is drop one of your DD specialists and invite 2 hybrids instead.
If balanced properly DD + WHM = 2x Hybrid.


Again, this is not realistic for the fights I'm talking about. I'm only going to discuss back-line roles using mage gear avoiding AOE's, not weak mobs that you can hybrid on without much concern.


Quote:

The same is true for healing atm. 2x Rdms don't compare to 1 whm. If you gave Rdm cure 5 though 2 Rdms would be quite a bit more then 1 whm, and that ruins our chance to be any sort of hybrid role since the can't boost our damage since is 2 Rdms could equal 1 DD then no one would even bother inviting Whm + DD anymore since 2xRdm would do the same damage but have way more defensive power.


The majority of RDM's don't want to hybrid. While most here seem to be pro-hybrid, most RDM's have BLU or NIN for their hybrid fix. You seem to think that RDM can't get Cure V because it would ruin any chance at a hybrid role which in fact it is only a very small minority of players asking for it. It's just not realistic.

Quote:

Now this is just how it theoretically works. In the real game there are other things preventing this from happening such as economies of scale and diminishing returns between jobs, but the point stands that it we get cure 5 we won't be able to be developed as well in another field because our healing will be stronger then a generalist should have. It's the reason we virtually went stagnant since the big Rdm change. Because our healing was so strong that they couldn't realistically buff us.


I actually agree with this. I still think you guys are worried about being a pink mage more than you like to admit, but I also think what you say is true. If RDM is "balanced" towards a healer slot, SE won't do anything else with the job. So I see your point and wonder what can be done to fix this.

Quote:

You say this, but I'll be honest. Rdm and Whm are one of the WORST job combinations to have in the game simply because too many of our things can't stack. We have the same haste spell. We can't use both of our refreshes. Many of our other enhancement spells are the same or don't stack with each other. Our enfeebles don't stack. I mean think instead if you had Whm + Brd instead of Whm + Rdm.



That's because you're thinking in terms on the same party. Without the need for our refresh, WHM doesn't really need us in the same party anymore. However, RDM and WHM as healers in 2 parties does work well together. The RDM can take the DD party with Cure V and keep everything going smooth ans WHM can keep the tank alive and all statuses removed asap. RDM with Cure V would easily blow away a BRD healer and haste/dia III would offset any BRD song. But the problem here is you guys don't want anything to do with healing so there goes that idea.

I think we have to look at the job responsibilities and see which role RDM could play and be effective. I wouldn't have a problem pushing SCH more to a healer role, but I think some SCH's might object. The feeling that if you get stuck healing, just come on your WHM logic. BLM obviously has nuking covered. DNC and BLU have the hybrid role covered with PUP and COR also there. The only gap I see is enfeebling. I've brought up ancient enfeebles more than once on these forums with very little interest by most posters. It's strange though considering regen is just another WHM duty IMO. I rather have ancient enfeebles that lock down HNM's and maybe the job ability Runic that allows us to draw our sword/dagger and absorb magic damage and boost our MP reserves.
#50 May 16 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The majority of RDM's don't want to hybrid.
The majority of RDMs need to hop their monkey asses on WHM, then.
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#51 May 16 2011 at 3:41 AM Rating: Default
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The majority of RDM's don't want to hybrid.
The majority of RDMs need to hop their monkey asses on WHM, then.


Hey BP, long time no see! :)

First of all I just want to say that I am not sure where you got that info from Shadow, I mean most of my friends would probably agree, as do I, but I really can't speak for the RDM community as a whole just by looking at what my friends and I think. There might be a large majority who wants to hybrid, I really wouldn't know without an extensive survey or something.

Sunrider, I don't get this whole idea that I should switch to WHM just because you guys want to change RDM. Like I said in my above post it is like me saying you should go level another job if you want anything but a healer. It doesn't make sense, we all want to play RDM and want RDM to go in a certain direction, I think we can advocate for our points of views without telling people to go do something else which is really completely irrelevant, since again we all want to play RDM (Be it for lore reasons, looks, or gameplay differences).

Whatever happens though I really hope we don't stay in the same position as we are in now... we can't heal worth of anything and usually take more hate than the WHM while doing it, we can't melee very well and we can't debuff in a way that we would really be wanted. I'd like to see changes in any of these areas really.

Personally I would prefer healing or debuffing (or if they have another idea) over melee, but if melee is all I get then at least it would be my own choice if I don't want to do it i.e. be useful or not. As it is now, whether we like to melee or not we aren't very useful compared to other jobs, which isn't so fun.
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